Fingerprint to clock into work

greenspurs

hi guys,
not sure where to put this, Mods please move if not the correct/appropriate place.

The gist of it is.....
Workplace is putting in a new clock in system, where the employees scan their fingerprint, instead of typing in a number.
Anyone know if employees can/should refuse this ?
Is there legal rammifications if they refuse, or do they have the right to do so?

Its not a high security/tech job, its mainly unskilled and seasonal workers.

Del2005

greenspurs wrote: »

hi guys,
not sure where to put this, Mods please move if not the correct/appropriate place.

The gist of it is.....
Workplace is putting in a new clock in system, where the employees scan their fingerprint, instead of typing in a number.
Anyone know if employees can/should refuse this ?
Is there legal rammifications if they refuse, or do they have the right to do so?

Its not a high security/tech job, its mainly unskilled and seasonal workers.

Provided that data protection laws are followed there is no issue, it's doing the same job as a punching in on a time clock or in putting a PIN but with less ability for fraud. It's usually introduced when people abuse the other systems by clocking in or out for friends. If you don't like it leave.

masalbeagdubh

I would hate the thoughts of this system being introduced where I work. I think employees should have the right to refuse such a system. I would definately complain as I`m sure this is costing alot to install and there may be better options.

listermint

masalbeagdubh wrote: »

I would hate the thoughts of this system being introduced where I work. I think employees should have the right to refuse such a system. I would definately complain as I`m sure this is costing alot to install and there may be better options.

It's not that expensive.not sure the point of refusing. They are handy and not used for anything more than clocking your attendance

Del2005

masalbeagdubh wrote: »

I would hate the thoughts of this system being introduced where I work. I think employees should have the right to refuse such a system. I would definately complain as I`m sure this is costing alot to install and there may be better options.

The contractor on my site use them. It's not much bigger than a laptop and what better option is there to avoid people clocking others in or out?

me_irl

Ah the whole "biometrics is stealing my privacy" argument.

I don't see it as a breach of privacy, it's a much better way to ensure staff clock in / clock out on time and don't have their mate do it for them cos they know their ID and password.

As far as I know it doesn't actually scan an image of your fingerprint, just uses the distinct ridges and converts that to an identifying number. So, mapping five points on your finger you could be (very stripped down example): 00 01 02 03 04 05, but your mate could be 05 06 07 08 09 10.

FishOnABike

Does the system allow more than one fingerprint to be registered per employee or is there an alternative clock in mechanism ? Relying on one fingerprint is not reliable. Depending on the technology used it might not recognise the print from an injured finger.

me_irl

FishOnABike wrote: »

Does the system allow more than one fingerprint to be registered per employee or is there an alternative clock in mechanism ? Relying on one fingerprint is not reliable. Depending on the technology used it might not recognise the print from an injured finger.

I'd say you can register two fingers for reducing false clocks. It also would tell you on the screen when you're registering to choose another finger.

(I'm guessing it's this one http://www.mitrefinch.co.uk/products/time-and-attendance/biometric-time-attendance/ )

skallywag

I really don't see why people get worked up about this. Your employer is anyway usually going to have reams of private information about you anyway, e.g. address, social security details, bank details, next of kin, etc. If some third party really wanted access to your fingerprint then they would very likely do so within 15 minutes of following you somewhere anyway.

greenspurs

Yes.. It is being introduced because of people clocking in/out others.
Personally , I don't mind it being there as I don't clock others in or out.
I don't know what kind of system it will be yet as it hasn't being introduced, but its a small rectangular box (10in x 6in) with a square insert where you place your finger , with a green light on it.
(it looks like something they bought on a well known discount website) !

me_irl

Ah yeah, here.

https://advancesystemsinc.com/what-is-biometrics/

How the Fingerprint Scanner Works

A fingerprint scanner that uses biometrics technology has two basic functions. First, it needs to get an image of each employee’s finger. Second, the scanner must take the characteristics collected from the image and determine whether the ridges and valleys create a pattern that matches pre-scanned images that are stored in the database.

Specific characteristics unique to each fingerprint are saved as an encrypted biometric key. In other words, the actual image of the fingerprint is not saved, but rather, a series of numbers in a binary code that is used for verification purposes. No one can ever duplicate fingerprints stored in the database to gain illegal access to a company.

Consequently, fingerprints of employees become the unique marker to identify them as they attempt to gain entry. The role of the fingerprint scanner takes the place of a human analyst comparing fingerprints. This is similar to the fingerprint analysis in a crime scene investigation or security breach, but used in a workplace setting. The technology does what a person would do manually in this type of scenario.

greenspurs wrote: »

Yes.. It is being introduced because of people clocking in/out others.

Well, then it's their fault this is being introduced. Go tell them off instead of arguing with the company who are trying to cut down on chancers.

pilly

There's no legal ramifications to this, the fingerprint taken is not anything that could be used in a court of law. I don't see the big deal either. They are introduced to prevent fraud. If you're not clocking someone else in and out then it doesn't have any effect on you.

greenspurs

me_irl wrote: »

I'd say you can register two fingers for reducing false clocks. It also would tell you on the screen when you're registering to choose another finger.

(I'm guessing it's this one http://www.mitrefinch.co.uk/products/time-and-attendance/biometric-time-attendance/ )

Doesn't look as hi tech as that one ... its a Linux ?

me_irl

greenspurs wrote: »

Doesn't look as hi tech as that one ... its a Linux ?

Linux is a free operating system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux

They do come in many makes and models though. That one from Mitrefinch is the "standard" setup, but you can get stand-alone finger readers without the keypads.

greenspurs

me_irl wrote: »

Well, then it's their fault this is being introduced. Go tell them off instead of arguing with the company who are trying to cut down on chancers.

Have I struck a nerve ?????
Only asked if people knew what the situation, and how it worked..
Or do you just need to get your daily dose of outrage off your chest ...?

greenspurs

pilly wrote: »

There's no legal ramifications to this, the fingerprint taken is not anything that could be used in a court of law. I don't see the big deal either. They are introduced to prevent fraud. If you're not clocking someone else in and out then it doesn't have any effect on you.

Yes, thanks for that...
( good to have someone provide an opinion without mounting their high horse with their knickers in a twist!!)

masalbeagdubh

greenspurs wrote: »

Have I struck a nerve ?????
Only asked if people knew what the situation, and how it worked..
Or do you just need to get your daily dose of outrage off your chest ...?

You asked if employees could refuse this ..... what were the legal ramifications ... and did they have the right to refuse to do so.

me_irl

greenspurs wrote: »

Have I struck a nerve ?????
Only asked if people knew what the situation, and how it worked..
Or do you just need to get your daily dose of outrage off your chest ...?

Not at all!

Stating factually that you should be chasing down the ones who are chancing the system instead of going after your employer who are (justly) trying to cover their ar$e.

Just questioning your tinfoil hat paranoia.

I think the greenspurs doth protest too much methinks.

The_Valeyard

Here:

https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Biometrics-in-the-workplace/m/244.htm

Section 2(1)(a) of the Acts require that

"The data or, as the case may be, the information constituting the data shall have been obtained, and the data shall be processed, fairly".

In order to demonstrate compliance with this provision, at least one of the provisions of Section 2A of the Acts must be met. These include

Employee consent,

Where the performance is necessary for the performance of a contract to which the data subject is party,

For compliance with a legal obligation to which the employer is subject,

Where the processing is necessary for the purposes of the legitimate interests pursued by the employer or by a third party or parties to whom the data are disclosed, except where the processing is unwarranted in any particular case by reason of prejudice to the fundamental rights and freedoms or legitimate interests of the data subject.

Consent is not generally a satisfactory legitimiser in an employment context, as it can be argued that consent is not freely given. However, if an employer offers a biometric as an option, then consent may be seen to be freely given.

Whilst the "legitimate interest" provision may seem appealing, it requires that a balance be struck. What is acceptable in one case may not be in another and an employer seeking to rely upon this provision must take into account the potential effect upon employee privacy rights.


Id be really against this in low level security jobs.

greenspurs

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Here:

https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Biometrics-in-the-workplace/m/244.htm

Section 2(1)(a) of the Acts require that

"The data or, as the case may be, the information constituting the data shall have been obtained, and the data shall be processed, fairly".

In order to demonstrate compliance with this provision, at least one of the provisions of Section 2A of the Acts must be met. These include

Employee consent,

Where the performance is necessary for the performance of a contract to which the data subject is party,

For compliance with a legal obligation to which the employer is subject,

Where the processing is necessary for the purposes of the legitimate interests pursued by the employer or by a third party or parties to whom the data are disclosed, except where the processing is unwarranted in any particular case by reason of prejudice to the fundamental rights and freedoms or legitimate interests of the data subject.

Consent is not generally a satisfactory legitimiser in an employment context, as it can be argued that consent is not freely given. However, if an employer offers a biometric as an option, then consent may be seen to be freely given.

Whilst the "legitimate interest" provision may seem appealing, it requires that a balance be struck. What is acceptable in one case may not be in another and an employer seeking to rely upon this provision must take into account the potential effect upon employee privacy rights.


Id be really against this in low level security jobs.

Very interesting, (if a bit hard to understand legal-ese )
Why would you be against it ?

worded

OP can you tell HR that you intend to give it two fingers instead of one like your colleagues ? Feck off bio hazard what's it machine !

me_irl

worded wrote: »

OP can you tell HR that you intend to give it two fingers instead of one like your colleagues ? Feck off bio hazard what's it machine !

Biohazard? That's a new one!

MarkR

Can anyone explain what their concerns are with this type of security? If the fingerprints are not reproducable, then your fingerprint is secured.

Most people seem more than happy to unlock their phones with their finger prints, and that's on a portable device which could easily be lost?

Decline on hygiene grounds, you don't want to be putting your finger someplace that hundreds of dirty fingers have already been.

Dial Hard

Deleted User wrote:

Decline on hygiene grounds, you don't want to be putting your finger someplace that hundreds of dirty fingers have already been.

Yes, because that's the only surface in a given workplace that's been touched by hundreds of dirty fingers.

FishOnABike

Basic fingerprint readers that just read the surface pattern on the outer layer of the fingerprint, under ideal, clean conditions these sensors work just fine, but if the fingerprint is dry, wet, damaged, dirty, or cut you will see a significant failure rate. Contamination could also cause failure to recognise subsequent fingerprints. Something more than a basic system, provision for maintenance and a fallback clock in/out system all need to be considered.

greenspurs

MarkR wrote: »

Can anyone explain what their concerns are with this type of security? If the fingerprints are not reproducable, then your fingerprint is secured.

Most people seem more than happy to unlock their phones with their finger prints, and that's on a portable device which could easily be lost?

Anything new , and when people haven't had it explained to them will produce some resistence and people wont trust it.
All technology has its faults and weaknesses, credit card/chip/ pin etc , so when people hear about fingerprints , they can be excused for being a wee bit worried...
The main problem (as it has always been here) is lack of information being passed to employees about Privacy/Usage/How it works.

Kimbot

greenspurs wrote: »

Privacy/Usage/How it works.

Privacy
This does not store your full fingerprint so no real Privacy concerns, once the computer system running it is secure then no info can be gotten from it.

Usage
You place your finger on it to clock in

How it works
As above, you place you finger on it, it identifies you as been you and records you as now clocked in at x time.

This system is in use in many places already, the company are just trying to protect themselves because others were abusing the clock in system.

FishOnABike

Deleted User wrote: »

Decline on hygiene grounds, you don't want to be putting your finger someplace that hundreds of dirty fingers have already been.

Dial Hard wrote: »

Yes, because that's the only surface in a given workplace that's been touched by hundreds of dirty fingers.

And it's not as if everybody wears gloves when using the existing numeric keypad based system.

sbsquarepants

greenspurs wrote: »

hi guys,
not sure where to put this, Mods please move if not the correct/appropriate place.

The gist of it is.....
Workplace is putting in a new clock in system, where the employees scan their fingerprint, instead of typing in a number.
Anyone know if employees can/should refuse this ?
Is there legal rammifications if they refuse, or do they have the right to do so?

Its not a high security/tech job, its mainly unskilled and seasonal workers.

I can't see what your objection is....other than your mate can't clock you in and out but your company are unlikely to be moved by such a concern!

sbsquarepants

Deleted User wrote: »

Decline on hygiene grounds, you don't want to be putting your finger someplace that hundreds of dirty fingers have already been.

For some reason I can only read this in Kenneth Williams voice:D

FishOnABike

Deleted User wrote: »

Decline on hygiene grounds, you don't want to be putting your finger someplace that hundreds of dirty fingers have already been.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

For some reason I can only read this in Kenneth Williams voice:D

I wish I hadn't mentioned gloved fingers now. Fetch me the mind bleach.

greenspurs

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I can't see what your objection is....other than your mate can't clock you in and out but your company are unlikely to be moved by such a concern!

just to correct you...
I personally didn't have any concern re clocking myself or others in/out, I have only clocked myself.
It is/was on privacy and what they would/could/cant do with fingerprint was the main issue with most employees , including myself.

This one at the top is in my work

http://www.clocks.ie/index.html

It can store 10 prints for each worker. It has the green light like the OP

greenspurs

Deleted User wrote: »

This one at the top is in my work

http://www.clocks.ie/index.html

It can store 10 prints for each worker. It has the green light like the OP

the €795 version is what we have on the wall.... :eek: