2017 Prius PHV now on sale in UK, June in Ireland

zilog_jones

Toyota GB announcement here:

http://blog.toyota.co.uk/introducing-new-prius-plug-in

First deliveries 1st March, apparently. Prices start at £34,895 (excl. grant), not including the solar panel of course (which actually charges the battery this time!).

US owners are getting around 30-50 km EV range, mostly dependant on what speed they're driving (mostly >55MPH highway driving = low 20s), probably better than the Outlander PHEV (52km in NEDC fantasy land).

Anyone know what this "world-first technology" gas-injection heat pump is about? How is it different from heat pumps in other PHEV/EVs?

A lot of other information there that has been repeated before, but some clarification that it'll have a Type 2 socket with 3.3 kW charger which should be plenty for an 8.8 kWh battery.

Still no word from Toyota Ireland. Obviously wouldn't be a cheap car here, but it's a significant step up from the standard Prius in many ways (except for the lack of rear centre seat).

cros13

zilog_jones wrote: »

Anyone know what this "world-first technology" gas-injection heat pump is about? How is it different from heat pumps in other PHEV/EVs?

It's a multi-stage heatpump that works better below freezing. It works like an inter-cooler. It certainly offers an advantage in Scandinavia but in Ireland.....not so much. I'm not happy that it's worth the added weight and complexity in a climate like ours.

The price is a bit of a disappointment, I'd hopes it would be cheaper.

zilog_jones

While the previous generation Plug-in was literally just the standard car with a larger battery and AC charger jammed in, they seemed to have gone out of their way to make this a somewhat more premium car than the normal 4th gen Prius so I'm not that surprised by the price. There have been a lot of changes to the exterior, e.g. the "matrix" LED headlights, weird concave rear windscreen with carbon fibre hatch, etc. It's actually a few inches longer than the normal Prius IIRC due to the various changes.

Increased EV motor power is also a big step up - the previous gen's EV mode was often referred to as "milk float mode" as MG2 on its own can only do about 80 bhp max.

cros13

Alex on Autos did a pretty good review of the Prime here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5Vx279YhAI

Whups... had totally the wrong video.

Too expensive, you'd think after all this time Toyota would have a proper EV and made the Prius a lot cheaper.

It makes no sense, say a cheaper Ioniq, 200 ish Kms range, can fast charge up to 65 Kw for times you go beyond this range, that's perfect for the majority of people really.

I could see 300 Kms range being easily met with the Ioniq with a 30 odd min fast charge. That's not bad at all , it's getting harder to justify a plug in.

cros13

It's going to be at least four years before we see the impact of this:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2016/11/30/akio-toyoda-puts-himself-and-3-lieutenants-in-charge-of-electric-car-drive/#6b7598fb2e8c

Akio Toyoda has a number of electric cars in his personal fleet. He was given a Roadster during the Toyota/Telsa partnership days. Rumor has it that he bought a Model S last year as well.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

Too expensive, you'd think after all this time Toyota would have a proper EV and made the Prius a lot cheaper.

+1

£32.5k after all subsidies? That's very close to BMW 330e money :rolleyes:

It's astonishing that Toyota is so far behind that they haven't even a single full EV on offer.

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

+1

£32.5k after all subsidies? That's very close to BMW 330e money :rolleyes:

It's astonishing that Toyota is so far behind that they haven't even a single full EV on offer.

The current radio ads are even anti-EV. "Never worry about having to plug in"

When they have something worth showing no doubt they'll change their tune.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

+1

£32.5k after all subsidies? That's very close to BMW 330e money :rolleyes:

It's astonishing that Toyota is so far behind that they haven't even a single full EV on offer.

They invested Billions into hydrogen thinking the worlds Governments would push Hydrogen instead of EV but the reality is that Hydrogen production is too wasteful + building a hydrogen network would be astronomical, and do we really need it ? we got and electricity network everywhere.

So Toyota must be feeling very sore about that for sure !

n97 mini

I think Toyota have so much invested in the Prius that they're unwilling to let it go.

Bit like Honda with the FCX Clarity (Hydrogen fuel cell powered, in case you missed it). Hundreds of millions spent. Great economy, but they backed the wrong horse.

But... when they do commit to EVs I wouldn't be surprised if Honda and Toyota did produce the best in class.

unkel

It was a hard call to chose between full EV and hydrogen about what, maybe 10-15 years ago? I thought the future was hydrogen too (just a hunch, obviously my knowledge was very limited)

The problem is that Toyota until very recently denied BEV was the future and insisted Hydrogen was the way. Obviously they didn't want to admit they were wrong !

Don't get me wrong, I think Hydrogen may have it's uses in the likes of Trucks, longer range Busses, perhaps trains, I don't know whether Hydrogen could replace liquid fuels in the likes of planes and big cargo ships.

Bigus

n97 mini wrote: »

I think Toyota have so much invested in the Prius that they're unwilling to let it go.

Bit like Honda with the FCX Clarity (Hydrogen fuel cell powered, in case you missed it). Hundreds of millions spent. Great economy, but they backed the wrong horse.

But... when they do commit to EVs I wouldn't be surprised if Honda and Toyota did produce the best in class.

Yeah I bet Toyota wish they bet on the Leaf

Toyota City, Japan, October 14, 2014―Toyota Motor Corporation announces that cumulative global sales of its hybrid vehicles has exceeded the 7 million unit mark as of September 30 reaching 7.053 million units*1. This latest million-unit milestone was achieved in the fastest time yet for Toyota, taking just nine months.

n97 mini

Bigus wrote: »

Yeah I bet Toyota wish they bet on the Leaf

Toyota City, Japan, October 14, 2014―Toyota Motor Corporation announces that cumulative global sales of its hybrid vehicles has exceeded the 7 million unit mark as of September 30 reaching 7.053 million units*1. This latest million-unit milestone was achieved in the fastest time yet for Toyota, taking just nine months.

You kind of proved my point. Toyota has so much invested in the Prius that it won't/can't admit it's a step to what will eventually be full EV.

What disturbs me is that most other manufacturers should have had Hybrids years ago, Diesel should have been dead by now but bad policy, especially in the E.U , shamefully promoted Diesel.

unkel

Not in all EU countries though, Mad_Lad. In the Netherlands i.e. you pay something like 3 times as much motor tax on a diesel car compared to a petrol car and that has been like that for decades. I believe Finland has a similar regime. Here in Ireland it is shameful though indeed. Thanks to the "Green" Party :rolleyes:

Yes, the Greens a bunch of misguided idiots.

I heard Eamonn Ryan on I think, TodayFM one evening and his excuse in light of the Diesel emissions scandal was something like " based on the data at the time, diesel was the best option for the defence agains climate change due to the lower Co2 emissions"

Unbelievable Horse ****e, the fact he can excuse the decision to promote the most polluting cars on our roads and it's been known for decades how bad diesel exhaust is.

Special Circumstances

Deleted User wrote: »

What disturbs me is that most other manufacturers should have had Hybrids years ago, Diesel should have been dead by now but bad policy, especially in the E.U , shamefully promoted Diesel.

unkel wrote: »

Not in all EU countries though, Mad_Lad. In the Netherlands i.e. you pay something like 3 times as much motor tax on a diesel car compared to a petrol car and that has been like that for decades. I believe Finland has a similar regime. Here in Ireland it is shameful though indeed. Thanks to the "Green" Party :rolleyes:

Don't get me started boys.
Whatever about the corporate influenced EU policies, you'd think the Greens would have known better by 2008. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall at the meeting where they decided to push diesel to the detriment of everything else.

The one thing that would redeem their credibility in the minds of intelligent, informed people - a strong statement on how they got it so wrong, and that it's time to reverse it - would annihilate them from the POV of Joe Soap - "take away my diesel? NOOOOOOO!"

zilog_jones

Deleted User wrote: »

It makes no sense, say a cheaper Ioniq, 200 ish Kms range, can fast charge up to 65 Kw for times you go beyond this range, that's perfect for the majority of people really.

You can argue for BEVs until the cows come home, but 200 km range plus the inconvenience of charging mid-journey to increase that range is still not good enough for mass market. Hybrids aren't going anywhere soon, but PHEVs are still very much a niche thing (especially considering current pricing).

unkel wrote: »

It's astonishing that Toyota is so far behind that they haven't even a single full EV on offer.

They've said before that they don't think the range and cost of BEVs are good enough yet - I'm sure they'll release something in the near future, and I suspect it's once they can make >300km affordable. They've made EVs before - two RAV4 variants, but only for ZEV compliance in California - they obviously didn't think the technology and practicality were good enough for general consumption.

They were focusing on hydrogen fuel cells as their real ZEV solution but it's hard to tell if that will ever take off considering the fairly rapid development of battery technology, and the essentially non-existent infrastructure outside of Japan's "hydrogen highway" - a country that admittedly also has more EV public charging points than petrol stations (over 40k).

n97 mini wrote: »

The current radio ads are even anti-EV. "Never worry about having to plug in"

You'd be surprised how much confusion there is over hybrids - I've often found myself trying to explain that a typical hybrid has no external charging functionality. And many people don't know the difference between a hybrid and BEV. They're just trying to explain what they're actually selling, though yes it does sound pretty disparaging towards plug-ins...

Toyota could easily ditch all their diesels as they have enough hybrid variants (including the lucrative crossover SUV segment which is still devoid of BEVs), and could potentially reduce costs by not spending on R&D/manufacturing for small diesel engines. They've already done this for Lexus.

unkel

zilog_jones wrote: »

Toyota could easily ditch all their diesels as they have enough hybrid variants (including the lucrative crossover SUV segment which is still devoid of BEVs), and could potentially reduce costs by not spending on R&D/manufacturing for small diesel engines.

They've already done that to a large extent. They buy in BMW diesel engines these days.

unkel

Special Circumstances wrote: »

I'd love to have been a fly on the wall at the meeting where they decided to push diesel to the detriment of everything else.

The one decision in the lifetime of that FF / Greens coalition government where the junior partner, the Greens, got their way. Their legacy. Some legacy.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Not in all EU countries though, Mad_Lad. In the Netherlands i.e. you pay something like 3 times as much motor tax on a diesel car compared to a petrol car and that has been like that for decades. I believe Finland has a similar regime. Here in Ireland it is shameful though indeed. Thanks to the "Green" Party :rolleyes:

Yeah, in Finland you pay 5.5c/day/100kg of *gross* weight of the vehicle "alternative energy tax" for anything that is not petrol.

KCross

samih wrote: »

Yeah, in Finland you pay 5.5c/day/100kg of *gross* weight of the vehicle "alternative energy tax" for anything that is not petrol.

Interesting, for a Leaf or Ioniq that would be about €360/yr.

We need it to go to zero, not to 360!, but the loss of revenue will have to come from somewhere once the pendulum swings so they will probably follow suit with something like that.

macnab

KCross wrote: »

Interesting, for a Leaf or Ioniq that would be about €360/yr.

We need it to go to zero, not to 360!, but the loss of revenue will have to come from somewhere once the pendulum swings so they will probably follow suit with something like that.

The rate for EVs is 1.5c per 100kg per day so cost is about €82 above base tax.
Interestingly Hybrids or petrol with electric are charged at a rate of 0.5 which seems to bias the system towards petrol use.

zilog_jones

Is there duty on petrol as well? Maybe they're taking that into account too.

macnab

zilog_jones wrote: »

Is there duty on petrol as well? Maybe they're taking that into account too.

The base tax rate seems to look at CO2 figures which would allow a certain balance back towards EVs.

cros13

Toyota UK have now dropped the PHEV prices by 10% before the first car has hit the road.

It's still nowhere near competitive.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-new-york-motor-show/toyota-prius-plug-uk-prices-lowered

unkel

Yeah the original price was a joke. Maybe they read my post here and agreed they got the pricing all wrong

zilog_jones

cros13 wrote: »

It's still nowhere near competitive.

What is it competing with, though? 330e? Golf GTE? At least it's actually cheaper than the 330e now.

Don't suppose Toyota Ireland have said anything?

cros13

zilog_jones wrote: »

What is it competing with, though? 330e? Golf GTE? At least it's actually cheaper than the 330e now.

Don't suppose Toyota Ireland have said anything?

Nothing from Toyota Ireland.

As for competitors... in the UK the Outlander PHEV was cheaper than the old price (and still is for company car buyers). Outlander PHEV starts at £31,795 list while the base Prius PHV was £32,395 (now £29,195).

Given the 330e and Outlanders pricing, performance, spec and equipment advantages, I don't think the Prius PHV would be competitively priced unless you could get the dealer below £25k.

zilog_jones

Well, this was a surprise: www.toyota.ie/models/prius-plugin/

Price ?

zilog_jones

No official pricing yet. Estimated €37,000 including grants according to The Times - that might just be based on UK pricing though.

colm_mcm

It looks way better than the standard Prius. Is it the same sheet metal just different lights/bumpers? Any idea if they'll update the regular Prius to make it look like it wasn't in an accident?

cros13

The frame is pretty much the same as the standard Prius but slightly lengthened (almost 15cm with the extra front bumper styling). The boot hatch is switched out for carbon fiber, it's got the expensive double hump rear window, new led cluster lights, and a few more additions to ramp up the price, including a standard 11.6" center display.

The plug-in has an extra electric motor in addition to the one in the standard Prius, You get much better performance.

It's also a four seater rather than 5. Though despite motoring publications saying that this is due to the battery... it's actually down to the design weight limit of the platform.

They basically decided to make the Plug-in the super premium version of the Prius.

zilog_jones

colm_mcm wrote: »

It looks way better than the standard Prius. Is it the same sheet metal just different lights/bumpers? Any idea if they'll update the regular Prius to make it look like it wasn't in an accident?

The doors and rear wings look the same as the standard Prius (except extra charging port), but everything else has changed externally. Some of the changes (new lights, carbon tailgate) probably add significantly to the cost, but maybe some of the elements could go back into a facelift for the normal Prius.

colm_mcm

I reckon the styling is holding back sales of the regular Prius.
The placement of the lights on the corners of the bumpers is comical too.

cros13

colm_mcm wrote: »

I reckon the styling is holding back sales of the regular Prius.
The placement of the lights on the corners of the bumpers is comical too.

Speaks for itself really:

zilog_jones

I don't think the 11" touchscreen has made its way to Europe, for whatever reason.

cros13

zilog_jones wrote: »

I don't think the 11" touchscreen has made its way to Europe, for whatever reason.

Looks like you are right. http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/toyota/toyota-prius-plug-in-2017-review/

There are a lot of reviewers in the US complaining about it being slow, buggy and unintuitive.

If they priced it as close to the 2.0L avensis then it just might sell, but seriously at that price, no chance in Ireland. IMO 30 Kwh Leaf and Ioniq are far better.

zilog_jones

The Leaf isn't a PHEV, and I assume you mean the Ioniq EV (PHEV doesn't exist yet AFAIK) - what's the point in comparing them? PHEVs serve different needs.

As has been said several times, this is a premium Prius in many ways. They're not trying to target the mainstream with this, and a PHEV is never going to be the cheap option anyway. The Avensis is also made in the UK, so is cheaper for that reason too (as long as they're still in the EU...)

josip

Not sure if there's a better thread to post this in but the Solar Panel "gimmick" is becoming less gimmicky.

http://newatlas.com/panasonic-solar-car-roof-prius/48273/

zilog_jones

Yes, the solar panel actually charges the traction battery now.

In the previous generation, it was a £2k option just to run the fan blower when parked in the sun. And I heard of some cases of the panels corroding (delaminating or something?) - out of warranty, of course...

cros13

It's still very much a gimmick, with the exception of the most ideal conditions it won't generate enough power in a year to compensate for it's own weight.

zilog_jones

How much does it weigh? I think the bigger problem is the cost, compared to the cost of charging from the mains - it would take a very long time to make back that £1500. Also, for whatever reason you lose the HUD and certain other features with this option (probably cost again) - the HUD is by far one of the best features of the Prius IMO.

cros13

I did the calculations for Dublin.

It's a 180W panel at 0 degree tilt, average solar radiation would be 2.58 kWh/m2/day. So assuming you left it outside in the sun, with no shading all day every day for a year you'd generate 129kWh.

That's less than €10 of nightrate electricity... per year. I concur... it would take a very long time to make back that £1500.... 200 years even.

zilog_jones

Apparently it's on sale in Ireland now, from €37,175 (:eek:) including grant:

https://www.toyota.ie/models/prius-plugin/

There was a blue demo car spotted at the Toyota Ireland HQ a few weeks ago. Not sure if any others around.

KCross

And €2400 extra for the solar panel version! :pac:

Why would the PHEV be almost €6k more than a standard Prius? Is it like the Golf.. being priced not to sell, or is there really €6k of extra engineering in there?

That will be a hard sell against a Model 3 if it comes in around the €40k mark.

zilog_jones

There's about 7 times the amount of battery in there compared to the standard Prius, the AC charging equipment, the drivetrain is more sophisticated to allow higher speed EV driving (an extra clutch or something? I forget), fancy LED lights and the carbon fibre tailgate - not sure if all that adds up. It's certainly not a loss leader for Toyota anyway.

Yes, will be interesting to see the real Model 3 pricing for Ireland.

VikingG

zilog_jones wrote: »

Apparently it's on sale in Ireland now, from €37,175 (:eek:) including grant:
.

Scratches it off the short list..