My mortgage sold on. I signed nothing??

gar32

Hello all,

I had a mortgage with Irish nationwide and it was moved IBRC which moved it to Pepper and now sold on to BOI.

So my question is why do I not have to sign or agree to any of this? Is a mortgage not a contract with the lender & me? If there is a change in this contract should I not have to agree and sign a new contract or mortgage document?

I am not in a position to change lenders as I don't fit the standard borrower profile to change. (Long story)

Any one have any idea?

Thanks

exaisle

The terms of your mortgage haven't changed....

gar32

They have. They are with a totally different company.

gar32

If I had a car on hire purchase and had to get a service with that company. If they sold up and now I have to deal with the new company with different employees and build there is a change.

Victor

It's quite possible that your original contract specifies that they can sell on the mortgage.

Irish Nationwide no longer exist. Who do you think you should pay the money to?

gar32

I should have to agree or at least sign a contract with the new leader. Contract law

uberwolf

it is a standard term in a mortgage that the right to assign it exists on the part of the lender. Not every mortgage had these, but far more have it than don't.

gar32

I will check with my solicitor that detail. Now I am getting places

CantonasCollar

Like Victor said, it is probably a clause in your mortgage agreement that the debt can be sold on.

This could actually be a good thing for you.

We are massively in negative equity and sought some financial advice from one of these companies offering advice to folks in our position.

They explained that if your mortgage gets sold on to a new company, the company who you had your mortgage with considered your debt to be risky. So they cashed out by selling your debt to a new company for less than what you owe. They are happy to clear what they considered a risky debt for an instant return, and allegedly they can claim some sort of tax break in the loss.

The new company are happy because they have bought the debt for less than what it is worth.

We were advised that we could take advantage of this by selling our house. We would then negotiate with the new company to pay off a % of the balance. Because they bought the debt for less than its value, as long as they get their initial outlay back plus a bit of profit they too will be happy to cash in a risky debt.

Of course this relies on your access to the cash to pay the negotiated amount with the new company. And of course the financial advisor was going to charge us for the negotiations with the new company.

We don't have access to the money to do it, but it is an option for those who do.

gar32

So my example

I have 90k to pay and I could ring BOI & give offer them €50k? They may take it?

NIMAN

Did you actually read the initial mortgage documentation? (most of us don't).

If you did, can you confirm 100% that there is no clause about the debt being sold on?

I'm guessing there probably is.

gar32

It's was 13 years ago. I read it with younger eyes and with 110% mortgage times where different then.

RossieMan

I don't think they'll take an almost 50 per cent cut.

It wouldn't make sense to do so.

Delacent

gar32 wrote: »

They have. They are with a totally different company.

No they haven't - i suggest you read the terms and conditions before guessing / surmising.

Its standard in almost every mortgage particularly building societies as that was always one of their funding models.

frogstar

gar32 wrote: »

So my example

I have 90k to pay and I could ring BOI & give offer them €50k? They may take it?

Doubtful

Pepper would have bought a portfolio of loans. Some good and some bad. They want to make a profit.

I would guess BOI bought your mortgage and a raft of others because they were performing and not a bad loan. Most banks disposed of loan books due to balance sheet pressures. Now that they don't have as many loans as they did and economy is changing, they are buying back loan portfolios as they are seen as a good investment hence BOI bought a portfolio from Pepper

BOI would want to keep you loan and repayments as it's a good debt. So I would highly doubt they would negotiate that much

And yes most if not all mortgages have a clause that it can be transferred

NIMAN

If you are paying every month with no missed payments, then there is no way they will give you a lower settlement figure.

gar32

Does not seem fair that a bad payer gets a discount & someone who does doesn't.

That's life. Any way for those who have not read it. Read Blank of Ireland (Google it)

Good luck and thanks for the input

sydthebeat

It's the very very small print....

ted1

RossieMan wrote: »

I don't think they'll take an almost 50 per cent cut.

It wouldn't make sense to do so.

You must have missed this.

http://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/vulture-funds-offer-to-slash-your-mortgage-by-40pc-35419888.html

gar32

I have seen it but BOI are worse then a vulture fund See "Bail out Ireland"

dubrov

ted1 wrote:

You must have missed this.

That article is a bit sensational.

It is based on non performing loans. The vulture fund might have bought them for much less than 60c in the euro and would be happy to lock in any kind of profit. They will win on some loans and lose on others. They probably have more scope to chase the debt as they won't care about damaging their reputation unlike the big banks.

The reality is that the people on the other side of these loans are very unlikely to be in a position to raise finance to buy back their loan even at a 40 percent discount.

It is all a bit of a non-story

frogstar

But it's now with BOI not a vulture fund

Gar, yes it is mad that good payers cannot really negotiate. I do know people who could not pay and were able to significantly negotiate

I'm with a different bank who refuses to pass on any interest cut. We pay and are up to date. Everytime we get a care call we ask for rate to be reduced and on a handful of occasions the person has said that they will not even review as we are paying.

So go figure... If we defaulted we would have a better chance of a review but we are not even on their radar as we are up to date

gar32

Classic case of nice guy finish last.

Wanderer78

Welcome to the world of banking, maybe the glass steagall act was a good idea!

NIMAN

I suppose its all about the likelihood of them getting the money out of someone.

If you never miss a payment and it looks like you will pay every month until the end of the term, its not in their interest to settle early for a reduced amount.

Whereas if you struggle to pay, miss payments occasionally etc, then they might think that taking €50k now instead of you defaulting totally with them only getting €20k is a better deal long term.

In the great scheme of things, you don't really want to be a defaulter, so sometimes being a nice guy and paying your debt is a more stable way to live your life. A defaulter will struggle financially to function in the future.

gar32

NIMAN wrote: »

I suppose its all about the likelihood of them getting the money out of someone.

If you never miss a payment and it looks like you will pay every month until the end of the term, its not in their interest to settle early for a reduced amount.

Whereas if you struggle to pay, miss payments occasionally etc, then they might think that taking €50k now instead of you defaulting totally with them only getting €20k is a better deal long term.

In the great scheme of things, you don't really want to be a defaulter, so sometimes being a nice guy and paying your debt is a more stable way to live your life. A defaulter will struggle financially to function in the future.

I am sure the a few chancers in Ireland claiming we can not pay and getting €50k deal and having no issue with money as it is resting in hard to find account somewhere.

gar32

So any one know who to call in BOI to make an offer? No harm and asking

Carry

gar32 wrote: »

Hello all,

I had a mortgage with Irish nationwide and it was moved IBRC which moved it to Pepper and now sold on to BOI.

So my question is why do I not have to sign or agree to any of this? Is a mortgage not a contract with the lender & me? If there is a change in this contract should I not have to agree and sign a new contract or mortgage document?

I am not in a position to change lenders as I don't fit the standard borrower profile to change. (Long story)

Any one have any idea?

Thanks

My Mortgage went the same way as yours, except for Pepper. Had the mortgage with Irish Nationwide, then Nama, then IBRC, then it was sold to BoI. IBRC informed me about every step of the sale and gave an option to object. If you look closely at the correspondence from IRBC you will find it. They equally wrote that if you don't send an objection they see it as agreement. They sent lots of paperwork by the way, you just have to read it.

But they (IBRC) made it clear that the conditions for mortgage payments wouldn't change, to whomever the mortgage is being sold. And it didn't. I payed as before and I really didn't care if it was to IN, IRBC or BoI or to my cat. It was the same amount according to the original mortgage contract.

I wouldn't worry, for you it's (mortgage) business as usual.

My mortgage is payed off since a few months and all is good. BoI complied to the original contract, there was no change whatsoever.

SteM

gar32 wrote: »

So any one know who to call in BOI to make an offer? No harm and asking

You say you have 90k left to pay so I'm guessing you're not in negative equity, the key to getting a deal is if you are in negative equity and can't keep up with the mortgage payment. Waste of a call otherwise imo.

gar32

If I say I am looking to change lenders unless you give me a discount to pay off. Say I am getting a better deal else where maybe they would think about it

NIMAN

gar32 wrote: »

If I say I am looking to change lenders unless you give me a discount to pay off. Say I am getting a better deal else where maybe they would think about it

Won't matter to them, because if you change lenders, they will have to get their €90k first paid to them by your new lender, so they get their money anyway.

gar32

They would miss out on the interest on the rest of the mortgage which would be a lot on a 20 years left on it

NIMAN

gar32 wrote: »

They would miss out on the interest on the rest of the mortgage which would be a lot on a 20 years left on it

Likewise if they sold to you at half price.

gar32

I will have to pay it off quicker with is my plan B all along. Extra payment here we come.

frogstar

They will tell you to move in all honesty

CantonasCollar

The key part of my earlier post was that you had to sell the house, it wasn't just a negotiation on what was left of my mortgage. It was a negotiation on the balance of my mortgage less what the house sold for.

Once the house was sold it totally changed the scenario for the lender and they were much more likely to negotiate, at least according to this company. They were gonna charge 4K to do the negotiation with the lender, which in theory you could do yourself, although this is their business so they are likely to come to a better conclusion than you may do on your own.

The person we spoke to was suggesting a discount of just over 50%, before you added on their fee. Typically both the lender and our negotiator would have wanted the cash within 12 months. Once it was all paid that was it, debt was cleared to all satisfaction and the lender lost all rights to come after you later on for the discounted money.

gar32

As my 1st post writes

"I am not in a position to change lenders as I don't fit the standard borrower profile to change. (Long story)"

Your mortgage most likely had a clause in or allowing the original company to sell it on. Take it from me ( someone who works in the industry) most of the time this can be a good thing as the new company may be open to a deal to settle your mortgage

CantonasCollar

I feel your pain, same position too. Our lender won't even consider discussion over moving to a fixed rate because we are slightly above their own imposed level of value of asset to level of debt.

We have never missed a payment in 10 years yet try explaining that we now have 2 kids and if the rates increase we would struggle to pay the mortgage. It is in their interest if the rates increased to move us to a fixed rate so we can continue to pay, otherwise eventually they end up with no payments for as long as we can stay here for and then an empty house to sell that is not worth what they have invested in it.

Sometimes I feel like just handing they keys back

Elemonator

I don't think you can just cite "contract law". There's likely a condition in the mortgage documentation that they can sell it on.

gar32

Contract law is between two parties. They parties are changing left right & center here without my input.

gar32

A contract is a legally enforceable agreement between parties to do something (or to not do something). Any legal contract must contain certain elements. First, it must contain an offer. ... Third, it must represent the intent of both parties to enter into a legally binding agreement.

gar32

"Both parties!!." I am not having a group party here with every bank in the country.

gar32

Also I don't remember the bank signing anything in this contract ??? a bit one sided

PCX

gar32 wrote: »

Contract law is between two parties. They parties are changing left right & center here without my input.

If the original contract you signed did have a clause stating it could be sold on then you did give your input. Your input was that you agreed it was ok for your mortgage to be sold on. You signed a legally enforceable contract to that affect.

gar32

Yes but it has to be a agreement with both parties and no one from the bank signed it

jh79

gar32 wrote: »

Yes but it has to be a agreement with both parties and no one from the bank signed it

You better give them back the money so.

gar32

I am with interest

gar32

INBS is long gone. That's who I was dealing with long ago.

sham58107

Same here loan sold on. INBS got into crap not me!! but I lost 20 years of mortgage protection overnight, as IRBC just dropped it.
We also got a letter from financial regulator about a year ago, apologizing for data protection breech, our details along with an awful lot more were sent to 6 legal companies, this was just before BOI bought mortgage, but was told there was nothing I could do about this, as it did not mean anything.
Usual Irish crap of the big boys been kept happy, while others are s*** on .

OP - what difference does it make to you if you are current and able to make the repayments?

If your original lender had gone bust and the mortgage wasn't able to be transferred your debt might have been called by a liquidator in 2009.