Sat>IP LNB

Johnboy1951

For about a year now I have had in mind converting to Sat>IP for my FTA TV reception, and distribution throughout the home.

To this end I first took note of three products

https://www.satshop.tv/Inverto-IDLI-8CHE20-OOPOE-OSP-8-Sender-SATIP-LNB-mit-PoE-Adapter
This is a Sat>IP LNB with 8 tuners produced by Inverto.

Triax also produced a similar product, which had not only the 8 tuners for IP but also had 2 'legacy' outputs for connection to standard tuners. This is the PDF for that device ...
http://www.satip.info/sites/satip/files/files/GB%20-%20Product%20info%20%5BTriax%20SAT-IP-LNB%5D%2005-2016%20-1.pdf

Strangely, neither of those products seem to be available anymore, and there seems to be no replacement products either!

The third device that attracted my attention was the 'SelfSAT' series of flat panel 'dishes' with 8 tuners for Sat>IP and also two legacy outputs as the Triax. This page shows different versions of the product. Most of the suppliers I have found are in Germany ... but at least they do seem to be still available!
http://www.selfsat.com/02_satip/home.html

This page provides information about Sat>IP devices, but seems to be out of date as the two LNBs I mentioned above are still listed
http://www.satip.info/products/sat%3Eip%20servers


So this brings me to the reason for this thread.

Is the Sat>IP LNB dead before it really took off?
Are there any new products available?

Is the SelfSat system the only 'LNB' option now?
If so one might wonder how long that will remain available.

Yes there are products available to take the output from standard LNBs and convert the signal to IP for distribution. Some are even listed in the link above.
I have no real interest in that type of device, but am interested in having a system which only requires a Cat6 cable from the home to the dish.

Anyone got any useful information that I might have missed?

Thanks.

Johnboy1951

It seems this technology is indeed dead

I have not found any new information, and no one has posted any.

I had high hopes for this, but it seems it is not to be.

.

paddy19

Exciting new TRIAX product solutions at ANGACOM 2016

http://www.triax.com/sitecore/shell/Controls/Rich%20Text%20Editor/~/media/08E85BCE3BD246BAAC20E4453D1E0B71.pdf

It's environmentally friendly too...

First SES Astra certified SAT>IP LNB server with a green mindset:

Flashy brochure GB - Product info [Triax SAT-IP-LNB] is dated 05-2016

Hard to believe the excitement has waned this fast!

Johnboy1951

paddy19 wrote: »

Exciting new TRIAX product solutions at ANGACOM 2016

http://www.triax.com/sitecore/shell/Controls/Rich%20Text%20Editor/~/media/08E85BCE3BD246BAAC20E4453D1E0B71.pdf

It's environmentally friendly too...

First SES Astra certified SAT>IP LNB server with a green mindset:

Flashy brochure GB - Product info [Triax SAT-IP-LNB] is dated 05-2016

Hard to believe the excitement has waned this fast!

Hard to believe, but no one is selling it that I found.
A few used to, but no longer do.
I found no explanation.
The same applies to the Inverto product.

The only product of this type still for sale seems to be the SelfSat flat panel.
Even that seems to be rather limited in outlets, with some of the range apparently not available.

Johnboy1951

I came across a couple of press releases I thought might be of interest from June 2016. Really only clarifies what technology is used in the SelfSat devices.


http://www.maxlinear.com/maxlinear-digital-channel-stacking-technology-powers-dcss-selfsat-flat-satellite-antenna/


http://www.satellitetoday.com/technology/2016/06/07/maxlinear-digital-css-technology-used-in-selfsat-flat-satellite-antenna/

Johnboy1951

I had to reconsider my preferences in light of the lack of suitable hardware choices for this.
I have ordered a Telestar Digibit R1 Sat-IP with four tuners which will make the tuners available to the network and can be utilised by tvheadend in my backend tuner/server box.

So it is coax to this device from LNB and ethernet from there on.

I have yet to look at Unicable II LNBs to see what might be done with that as I want to keep the amount of coax cable to a minimum.
In the meantime the quad LNB will suffice I guess.

Johnboy1951

In case anyone might have an interest ....... the Digibit R1 is working very well in my set up.

Tvheadend is used to set up all the channels and provide them to the clients which run Kodi.

At present I am using the existing Quad LNB but might in future move to a Unicable II LNB.

paddy19

Hi Johnboy1951,

At €122 from Amazon DE this looks good.

What's your setup from LNB to users?

Johnboy1951

paddy19 wrote: »

Hi Johnboy1951,

At €122 from Amazon DE this looks good.

What's your setup from LNB to users?

Quad LNB -> Digibox -> Switch -> Backend Server running LibreElec with Tvheadend -> client devices such as R-Pi, NUC, laptop, tablet etc all with Kodi (Pi & NUC devices running LibreElec) -> 1080 TVs.

LAN is Cat5e and Switch is Gb.

EDIT:
I paid €136 delivered to door

icdg

I think on reflection, this thread perhaps is better suited to the satellite forum

The Cush

DVB forms liaison with SAT>IP Alliance - https://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2017/09/12/dvb-forms-liaison-with-satip-alliance/

Despite its name, SAT>IP technology also supports all other broadcast delivery mechanisms such as cable, terrestrial and managed IPTV transmissions. It can retransmit from DVB-S2, DVB-C2 and DVB-T2 to IP, in other words: DVB over IP.

As DVB takes over the management of the SAT>IP protocol, it is quite possible that the naming and scope of the technology will expand to better reflect support for all broadcast delivery systems.

“The cooperation with the SAT>IP Alliance is an important step for DVB, as it defines a standardized way to bring DVB services to mobile devices in the home,” said Peter Siebert, DVB Executive Director.

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

DVB forms liaison with SAT>IP Alliance - https://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2017/09/12/dvb-forms-liaison-with-satip-alliance/

That is good news indeed.

I look forward to being able to buy a DVB>IP device with multiple DVB-T/2 tuners and maybe multiple Sat tuners also.

... maybe by the new year ....

The Cush

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

... maybe by the new year ....

No chance of that, standards will have to be developed, lets see what the next 12-24 months bring.

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

No chance of that, standards will have to be developed, lets see what the next 12-24 months bring.

I don't understand why the same box with a different tuner type requires some different standard ...

Despite its name, SAT>IP technology also supports all other broadcast delivery mechanisms such as cable, terrestrial and managed IPTV transmissions. It can retransmit from DVB-S2, DVB-C2 and DVB-T2 to IP, in other words: DVB over IP.

The Cush

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I don't understand why the same box with a different tuner type requires some different standard ...

This new arrangement will make no immediate difference as to what new products manufacturers bring to market now or in the near future, if they see a market opportunity they will do it. If they haven't done it up to now this new arrangement in relation to these standards bodies will make no difference.

With the DVB Project taking over the management of Sat>IP I assume the existing standard will be developed with whatever future enhancements and reissued as a new DVB standard. The development of such standards requires input from the wider industry and simply takes time. From there it will be up to the manufacturers to determine if there is a market for new products based on a future DVB>IP standard.

In this part of Europe Sky's wbLNB/dSCR tech has bypassed Sat>IP and it looks like so will the future Freesat requirements. In my opinion it really requires mass market for Sat>IP tech to get a toe hold.

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

No chance of that, standards will have to be developed, lets see what the next 12-24 months bring.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I don't understand why the same box with a different tuner type requires some different standard ...

The Cush wrote: »

This new arrangement will make no immediate difference as to what new products manufacturers bring to market now or in the near future, if they see a market opportunity they will do it. If they haven't done it up to now this new arrangement in relation to these standards bodies will make no difference.

With the DVB Project taking over the management of Sat>IP I assume the existing standard will be developed with whatever future enhancements and reissued as a new DVB standard. The development of such standards requires input from the wider industry and simply takes time. From there it will be up to the manufacturers to determine if there is a market for new products based on a future DVB>IP standard.

In this part of Europe Sky's wbLNB/dSCR tech has bypassed Sat>IP and it looks like so will the future Freesat requirements. In my opinion it really requires mass market for Sat>IP tech to get a toe hold.

I get it that Sky like to plough their own furrow .... helps keep people locked in ..... lots of companies do it in different markets.

I get that manufacturers won't be falling over themselves to serve a market they do not think exists at this time.

It seems the DVB-T/2>IP segment is small chips in its basic form, and for Europe requires card slot/s but I find it strange this market segment has not been addressed by manufacturers with devices for the home market that comply with Sat>IP present standard.
Hopefully this move will draw attention to the possibilities for manufacturers and we will see some home products available soon.
Personally I would like to see a complimentary device to the Telestar Digibit R1 that has DVB-T2 tuners.

philboy

This sounds really interesting. Are you able to get Saorview or Saorsat on the network and if so how? Thanks

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

No chance of that, standards will have to be developed, lets see what the next 12-24 months bring.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I don't understand why the same box with a different tuner type requires some different standard ...

philboy wrote: »

This sounds really interesting. Are you able to get Saorview or Saorsat on the network and if so how? Thanks

By adding a couple of USB DVB-T tuners (& aerial) both Saorview muxes can be tuned so all Saorview channels are available to all clients at the same time.

Hopefully a DVB-T > IP box will become available in the future which can be used to compliment the Digibox, but in the meantime two €10 USB dongles do the job (with a spare in case one fails )

Doltanian

Is this truely IP and could it be transmitted over a short range? by say two Ubiquiti Nanostations etc. I have two houses with Line of Sight of each other, one has Saorview but the other doesn't due to to Wind Turbine interference, the first house is on a mountain and receives it fine. I'd love to be able to retransmit the Saorview back to the other house if possible.

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

DVB forms liaison with SAT>IP Alliance - https://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2017/09/12/dvb-forms-liaison-with-satip-alliance/

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

That is good news indeed.

I look forward to being able to buy a DVB>IP device with multiple DVB-T/2 tuners and maybe multiple Sat tuners also.

... maybe by the new year ....

The Cush wrote: »

No chance of that, standards will have to be developed, lets see what the next 12-24 months bring.

In the meantime I have a temporary arrangement .......

I have a couple of USB DVB-T dongles attached to a R-Pi which runs tvheadend.
Tvheadend makes them available as Sat>IP devices on the LAN so they are accessible to all.

Johnboy1951

Doltanian wrote: »

Is this truely IP and could it be transmitted over a short range? by say two Ubiquiti Nanostations etc. I have two houses with Line of Sight of each other, one has Saorview but the other doesn't due to to Wind Turbine interference, the first house is on a mountain and receives it fine. I'd love to be able to retransmit the Saorview back to the other house if possible.

This info might help

http://www.satip.info/technology-0

philboy

I'm going to give the Sat > IP a try. Can you please take a look at my plans and see if I've missed anything or if you have any advice where I could improve the setup.

BOUGHT/HAVE
- Cat 6 cable for LAN
- 24 port GB switch
- Nvidia Shield (sitting room) {Kodi}
- Mi box 4k international version (bedroom) {Kodi}
- HP Microserver for Tvheadend

BUYING
- Telestar DIGIBIT R1
- Unicable 2 LNB (DUR-line UK 104)
- Unicable splitter (https://www.amazon.de/gp/aw/d/B000KPWKRQ/ref=cm_cr_arp_mb_bdcrb_top?ie=UTF8)

From reading on various forums, it seems that installing satip-axe custom firmware for Digibit R1 is a good idea.

Thanks

Johnboy1951

philboy wrote: »

I'm going to give the Sat > IP a try. Can you please take a look at my plans and see if I've missed anything or if you have any advice where I could improve the setup.

BOUGHT/HAVE
- Cat 6 cable for LAN
- 24 port GB switch
- Nvidia Shield (sitting room) {Kodi}
- Mi box 4k international version (bedroom) {Kodi}
- HP Microserver for Tvheadend

BUYING
- Telestar DIGIBIT R1
- Unicable 2 LNB (DUR-line UK 104)
- Unicable splitter (https://www.amazon.de/gp/aw/d/B000KPWKRQ/ref=cm_cr_arp_mb_bdcrb_top?ie=UTF8)

From reading on various forums, it seems that installing satip-axe custom firmware for Digibit R1 is a good idea.

Thanks

IIUC you will use the Nvidia Shield and Mi box as client devices.
Your only satellite tuners will be in the Telestar (4 tuners).

Tvheadend on the server will manage the tuners, pvr, EPG, etc.

Do you intend to feed some other device with sat signals?
If not, there is no need for the splitter.
A single cable into the Telestar is all that is required for Unicable II operation.

Regarding "satip-axe" .... do you need minisap for some reason?

With tvheadend managing the backend, and the client devices connecting to that, I am unsure what you need satip-axe for.

Also the Telestar has its own DLNA output if required.

Is there a reason you picked the Dur-line 104 (€45) rather than some of the alternatives?
It seems that does 4 tuner Unicable plus two legacy outputs.
So there would be no benefit in attempting to split the 4 tuners as the Telestar will use all.

There are other Unicable II LNBs such as the Inverto 32UL40 which is capable of feeding 32 tuners for about €70.
You could provide Satellite to all the neighbours

PabloAndRoy

philboy wrote: »

I'm going to give the Sat > IP a try. Can you please take a look at my plans and see if I've missed anything or if you have any advice where I could improve the setup.

BOUGHT/HAVE
- Cat 6 cable for LAN
- 24 port GB switch
- Nvidia Shield (sitting room) {Kodi}
- Mi box 4k international version (bedroom) {Kodi}
- HP Microserver for Tvheadend

BUYING
- Telestar DIGIBIT R1
- Unicable 2 LNB (DUR-line UK 104)
- Unicable splitter (https://www.amazon.de/gp/aw/d/B000KPWKRQ/ref=cm_cr_arp_mb_bdcrb_top?ie=UTF8)

From reading on various forums, it seems that installing satip-axe custom firmware for Digibit R1 is a good idea.

Thanks

I have a couple of pointers:
1. for the Nvidia Shield and the Xiaomi Mi Box, as they are both Running Android TV OS, you don't need Kodi as can use this app to connect to tvheadend directly using that platform's Live Channels facility: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ie.macinnes.tvheadend

I haven't tried it myself as I don't have a suitable device, but by all accounts it is excellent.

2. As Johnboy asked: Is there any particular reason to not stick with the Telestar firmware? I use this with tvheadend and I am at a loss as to why you would need some other firmware.

philboy

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

IIUC you will use the Nvidia Shield and Mi box as client devices. Yes
Your only satellite tuners will be in the Telestar (4 tuners). Yes. I forgot to add in last night that I will also be adding two USB tuners for Saorview. This will allow me to watch and or record on two devices at the same time throughout the house won't it?

What tuners would you recommend?

Tvheadend on the server will manage the tuners, pvr, EPG, etc. Yes

Do you intend to feed some other device with sat signals? No
If not, there is no need for the splitter. I thought that I needed a feed to go into each tuner so split the signal back out again into 4 coax cables and hook up to each tuner
A single cable into the Telestar is all that is required for Unicable II operation. Could you split the four of the signals and have 4 x 4 feeds, 16 in total?

Regarding "satip-axe" .... do you need minisap for some reason? When researching, I had read so many good things about satip-axe which is why I was considering installing that instead. I haven't had a chance to research further into this. Are you using it?

With tvheadend managing the backend, and the client devices connecting to that, I am unsure what you need satip-axe for.

Also the Telestar has its own DLNA output if required.

Is there a reason you picked the Dur-line 104 (€45) rather than some of the alternatives? It had good reviews on Amazon.de but I am totally open to using another one
It seems that does 4 tuner Unicable plus two legacy outputs.
So there would be no benefit in attempting to split the 4 tuners as the Telestar will use all.

There are other Unicable II LNBs such as the Inverto 32UL40 which is capable of feeding 32 tuners for about €70. I realistically will only be using the LNB for my home so I would be open to getting a Unicable LNB with as many ports as the Telestar can handle.

I read an interesting post about being able to watch lots of channels at the one time with only 4 tuners but have no idea yet how to implement it. See the post here: https://www.avforums.com/threads/sat-ip-advice.2116611/#post-25320871
You could provide Satellite to all the neighbours

What size and type of dish would you recommend or does it really matter once I have a good Unicable 2 LNB?

Thanks for the detailed reply, I really appreciate it. There is some really good information in there. I have included my replies above in bold which will make it easier for everyone to read.

Thanks,
Philip

philboy

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

I have a couple of pointers:
1. for the Nvidia Shield and the Xiaomi Mi Box, as they are both Running Android TV OS, you don't need Kodi as can use this app to connect to tvheadend directly using that platform's Live Channels facility: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ie.macinnes.tvheadend

I haven't tried it myself as I don't have a suitable device, but by all accounts it is excellent.

2. As Johnboy asked: Is there any particular reason to not stick with the Telestar firmware? I use this with tvheadend and I am at a loss as to why you would need some other firmware.

Thanks for the feedback. I will read up more on the Android TV OS tonight. In relation to the other firmware, I had only come across it on various forums when researching the system setup. I hadn't really looked at it in depth but said I would mention it and get some feedback on it.

Johnboy1951

I consider the TBS range of cards to be excellent. Maybe this one for your DVB-T/2 needs.
https://www.tbsdtv.com/products/tbs6281se-dvb-t2tc-tv-tuner-pcie-card.html

A single coax from Dur-Line LNB will feed the four tuners in the Telestar.
You just set the input option to Unicable II instead of Quad or such.

If you get an LNB that is capable of more than 4 tuner then you could split the cable to feed multiple Telestar boxes or similar.
An LNB such as the inverto will serve up to 32 tuners.

I use the original firmware in the Telestar as does PabloAndRoy.

Regards the number of TV channels you can watch ....... you have four tuners in the Telestar, so can tune to 4 different transponders, which each could have 10 TV channels, and you could watch and/or record all of them, depending of course on your system capabilities.

If you are getting a new dish I would be thinking of an 80cm dish.

philboy

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Regards the number of TV channels you can watch ....... you have four tuners in the Telestar, so can tune to 4 different transponders, which each could have 10 TV channels, and you could watch and/or record all of them, depending of course on your system capabilities

How is this achieved? When I see 4 tuners, I think I can only view 4 channels at any one time. I'm lost!

I thought that I can only use USB DVB-T/2 tuners with the Telestar or are you referring to adding the PCIE card to the Microserver?

PabloAndRoy

philboy wrote: »

How is this achieved? When I see 4 tuners, I think I can only view 4 channels at any one time. I'm lost!

I thought that I can only use USB DVB-T/2 tuners with the Telestar or are you referring to adding the PCIE card to the Microserver?

Have a look at this post: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104056783&postcount=28

There is a screenshot of tvheadend serving multiple channels from ONE transponder.

Each transponder can serve up to 10 (SD) channels .. one of the tuners can then receive all of those channels and distribute to clients. So in the example shown, one room is watching BBC One HD and another room is watching BBC Two HD all on one tuner because these channels are on the same transponder which you can see via the Service column.

Johnboy1951

philboy wrote: »

How is this achieved? When I see 4 tuners, I think I can only view 4 channels at any one time. I'm lost!

PabloAndRoy answered above.

I thought that I can only use USB DVB-T/2 tuners with the Telestar or are you referring to adding the PCIE card to the Microserver?

The Telestar only has DVB-S/2 tuners, no DVB-T, and no means to add any tuners.

So, yes, the PCI-e card would be for inserting into the server.

You could of course go for some USB dongle for DVB-T (at €10 each well worth a try ) ....... tvheadend won't care, and it would save you the work of installing drivers for the TBS card in the server.

You can add as many tuners as you like to the system, and Tvheadend will be able to manage them for you.

FutureJD

Hi guys,

Just finished reading though this, really good info here.

I'm moving house soon and will have a similar set up to philboy, CAT 6 throughout, A shield that'll be a client and a few TBs on a NAS that'll store recordings.

My knowledge of sat>ip is limited so bear with me!
Will one coax line from the satellite into a Telestar DIGIBIT R1 be sufficient to feed the 4 tuners?
Can someone recommend a suitable satellite/LNB combination?

I'll then need a seperate coax from a TV arial for Saorview? I can add a splitter the to feed multiple usb tuners if i want?

I'll need a server to run Tvheadend/my saorview tuner(s) too. A Raspberry Pi3 seems like it'll do the trick. Would an intel NUC be overkill?

Thanks in advance!

JD