ESB want meters on every EV

KCross

While looking back at the recent ESB report on the suitability of the network as EV's take hold I saw this (which I missed on the first read)....

Assumes that all EV’s require a separate ESB Meter

The full report is here:
http://www.cer.ie/docs/000413/CER16286b%20ESB%20eCars%20Pilot%20Project%20Report.PDF


I dont like the sound of that one. It would suggest there are plans afoot to have a separate tariff for EV's when charging at home and they even gave cost for providing such meters!!!!

However, I cant see how they would actually implement it without legislation to force it.

unkel

They can ask. They can expect our answer to be "no"


Why can't they be a bit more proactive and work with the government and concentrate on a viable solution for PV micro generation (as has been in place in many other EU countries for many years)? My father's "ESB" meter was regularly running backwards about 15 or 20 years ago from the 2 large (subsidised) solar panels on his garage roof

KCross

unkel wrote: »

They can ask. They can expect our answer to be "no"

Unless, of course, the EV tariff is below the night rate!

n97 mini

Granny cable.

n97 mini

KCross wrote: »

Unless, of course, the EV tariff is below the night rate!

To get you hooked, and then they review the price upwards and upwards...

KCross

n97 mini wrote: »

To get you hooked, and then they review the price upwards and upwards...

Then a bit of rewiring is required!

slave1

Impossible to do this, simple piece of rewiring and overcome in a few minutes

unkel

Can't really see the point of it. Cheaper rate? Who cares. What difference does it make to my life if I can drive 10,000km per year for €80 or for €50?

If they'd increase the rates, we'd find another solution.

They should concentrate on strategic mid to long term plans of having lower emissions (as to pay less fines if anything) and having a high quality energy supply that is relatively cheap (so renewables, micro generation) and less reliant on big generators that use expensive and dirty fuel that the we need to import.

NIMAN

I don't see how they could justify charging more for the electricity you use on your EV versus the electricity you use for your washing machine.

KCross

My mention of the EV tariff being cheaper was tongue in cheek. They wont do that. They will try to say the network needs to be funded to support EV and so the EV owners must pay for it. The EV tariff, if it were to come in, would be dearer not cheaper, IMO.

We are all supposed to get smart meters in the next few years and once that happens they can easily pinpoint which houses have an EV. A quick check by the guy who reads the meter would confirm it and once they know you have an EV and no EV meter then you are in trouble.

It would still require legislation, I think, to force you to install it.

They seem to be thinking about it anyway so Im sure they have some kind of a long term plan in mind.

mickdw

what if I have a plug in hybrid.
I might never plug it in yet I might have a high enough bill cause I like my 2 bar fire. Will I be prosecuted in the wrong for charging my ev from house meter.

This all looks very much like the esb trying to kill off the electric car - threatening dedicated meters, talking about expensive Street charging rates. It wouldn't take too much to make it not worth the hassle.

KCross

mickdw wrote: »

what if I have a plug in hybrid.
I might never plug it in yet I might have a high enough bill cause I like my 2 bar fire. Will I be prosecuted in the wrong for charging my ev from house meter.

The charge point for the EV would have its own meter. The 2 bar fire would be pulling off the main meter.

NIMAN

KCross wrote: »

We are all supposed to get smart meters in the next few years and once that happens they can easily pinpoint which houses have an EV. A quick check by the guy who reads the meter would confirm it and once they know you have an EV and no EV meter then you are in trouble.

Sounds like a great way to encourage EV ownership, eh!:rolleyes:

Can't see it happening...all electricity is the same.

76544567

When all the tax revenue on petrol and diesel starts to dry up then there will be a tax on electricity for cars.
Im waiting for the day when you have to have a special socket to charge your car, that it cant be charged otherwise.
10c a unit + 50c tax for using it to charge your car.
Watch and see.

mickdw

That is basically my point.
I might not plug in my car but I might have some heavy household useage.
My neighbour might plug his car into a household socket to charge instead of special meter. How can they tell that he has been acting illegally while i have not?

76544567

mickdw wrote: »

That is basically my point.
I might not plug in my car but I might have some heavy household useage.
My neighbour might plug his car into a household socket to charge instead of special meter. How can they tell that he has been acting illegally while i have not?

They cant at the moment. But there are ways and means when they need to.

alias no.9

The ESB really seem determined to **** up EV's, a meter on every car WTF???

They're simply incapable of thinking beyond their current domestic business model.

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

I don't see how they could justify charging more for the electricity you use on your EV versus the electricity you use for your washing machine.

Sounds like the same idea as mobile networks charging for tethering. It's the same data but they charge differently depending on what way you use it.

76544567

alias no.9 wrote: »

The ESB really seem determined to **** up EV's, a meter on every car WTF???

They're simply incapable of thinking beyond their current domestic business model.

ESB dont like the fact you can charge your car on the night rate.
Wait for their next move to do away with night rate tariffs, not just for EVs but altogether. Getting out ahead of the chance of storing electricity from the night rate for use in the day time.

slave1

76544567 wrote: »

ESB dont like the fact you can charge your car on the night rate.
Wait for their next move to do away with night rate tariffs, not just for EVs but altogether. Getting out ahead of the chance of storing electricity from the night rate for use in the day time.

Whole point of night rate is not a cost measure, they simply want to encourage electricity use more on a level loading basis, take use from peak time i.e. dinner/tea time and move onto the wee hours when the strain on their capacity is less.
Doubt they will do away with Night rate.

Dardania

76544567 wrote: »

When all the tax revenue on petrol and diesel starts to dry up then there will be a tax on electricity for cars.
Im waiting for the day when you have to have a special socket to charge your car, that it cant be charged otherwise.
10c a unit + 50c tax for using it to charge your car.
Watch and see.

I think this is the key point.

There are simpler ways to achieve this goal (get tax revenue from EV drivers) - require a mileage report each year, checked by the NCT

KCross

76544567 wrote: »

When all the tax revenue on petrol and diesel starts to dry up then there will be a tax on electricity for cars.
Im waiting for the day when you have to have a special socket to charge your car, that it cant be charged otherwise.
10c a unit + 50c tax for using it to charge your car.
Watch and see.

There is already a special socket. The "Type 2" socket. You can still use a 3 pin plug to charge buts its much lower current so it takes too long to charge particularly as batteries getting bigger.

mickdw wrote: »

That is basically my point.
I might not plug in my car but I might have some heavy household useage.
My neighbour might plug his car into a household socket to charge instead of special meter. How can they tell that he has been acting illegally while i have not?

That would be a way around it but most BEV cars dont come with a 3 pin charger (aka Granny cable). They come with a Type 2 cable which requires a type 2 socket which requires a specific charge point and thats what would be metered.

Not sure what kind of charge cable a PHEV comes with. Is it a 3 pin charger?
I dont think they would be targetting PHEV in any case as the batteries are very small and wouldnt matter much. Its the larger BEV batteries they would be targetting... 24kWh+

76544567 wrote: »

ESB dont like the fact you can charge your car on the night rate.
Wait for their next move to do away with night rate tariffs, not just for EVs but altogether. Getting out ahead of the chance of storing electricity from the night rate for use in the day time.

On the contrary, they are introducing smart meters in the next few years which will have many more rates, not just the 2 they have today.



On the other hand this was just one line in a paper they wrote for a pilot project in 2015. Its just an aspiration. It may never happen as they would also have to get it passed the CER.

KCross

Dardania wrote: »

I think this is the key point.

There are simpler ways to achieve this goal (get tax revenue from EV drivers) - require a mileage report each year, checked by the NCT

I can see the clocking happening already!
Double benefit... increase the value of the car and reduce tax liability.

Dardania

KCross wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

I think this is the key point.

There are simpler ways to achieve this goal (get tax revenue from EV drivers) - require a mileage report each year, checked by the NCT

I can see the clocking happening already!
Double benefit... increase the value of the car and reduce tax liability.

Or maybe GPS trackers on vehicles...

Don't trucks have tachographs as a mandatory item? Surely something can be adapted for the purpose, rather than trying to regulate electrical charging supplies..
It would take one fire from some genius trying to apply voltage across the battery terminals to bypass some meter setup...

grogi

NIMAN wrote: »

I don't see how they could justify charging more for the electricity you use on your EV versus the electricity you use for your washing machine.

The same reasons why diesel is more expensive than green diesel...

n97 mini

1% of cars on Irish roads are EVs. If that quadruples the loss of tax revenue would still be so small that a 5c hike in duty on diesel would cover losses, and diesel would still be cheaper than petrol.

I think it'll be a long time before we need to worry.

Pkiernan

NIMAN wrote: »

I don't see how they could justify charging more for the electricity you use on your EV versus the electricity you use for your washing machine.

The same way they charge more for road diesel than they do for home heating oil.

Revenue put the kibosh on making bio fuel and they'll want some form of road tax added to electricity used for transport.

k123456

All those free charges
we had installed by t by Esb, would make an ideal audit device, if they had a storage chip in them

cros13

I'd council cool heads on this. And I'm prepared to take the mod powers out if this thread doesn't calm down a bit.

I see zero chance of this happening.

There's a lot of extrapolation from a single throwaway line in a report and spreading panic.
I'd clarify that we have no evidence or indication of any changes to metering or nightsaver tariffs.

In fact we have plenty of evidence pointing to the opposite, five CER consultations and reports on smart metering and time of use tariffs effectively expanding the nightsaver tariffs.
Including a number of example tariff structures CER favors all of which retain nightsaver.

There are also structural reasons that time of use tariffs are a good idea. Not least of which that increased off-peak use helps the financial viability of both infrastructure and generation.

There is already excise duty on electricity that contributes to the same pot as the fuel excise. And we also pay VAT both on electricity and vehicles, VRT (in some cases), road tax and income tax (road funding overwhelmingly comes from general taxation).

KCross

I also think it would be very difficult to introduce but I wouldn't say zero chance.

@cros13, any opinion on why they threw it into the report?

Flying a kite with the CER?

Someone in ESB obviously thought about it and thought it worthwhile adding to the report.
.

n97 mini

cros13 wrote: »

I'd council cool heads on this. And I'm prepared to take the mod powers out if this thread doesn't calm down a bit.

You need to spend some time in the motors forum!

mundogas

Might be a long shot but it may be possible that they have a different idea for metering EV's separately. A large number of EV batteries connected to the grid would be a major asset for the electricity grid operator if they could control them at certain times. At time of very high demand or a problem with electricity supply EV's could stop charging or even help support the electricity grid. Nissan are looking at power to grid a far as I know and it does have interesting possibilities.

cros13

KCross wrote: »

I also think it would be very difficult to introduce but I wouldn't say zero chance.

It's against the financial interests of almost everyone involved from generators, to the TAO (ESB Networks), TSO (Eirgrid) and the government. The bean counters would kill it on day one.

KCross wrote: »

@cros13, any opinion on why they threw it into the report?

Having read the report, they added it as an assumption to simplify calculations of metering costs by making 1 EV equal 1 additional low voltage meter.
So that they didn't have to do thing like calculate chargepoint occupancy or deal with varied installations and statistics on those.

MayoSalmon

76544567 wrote:

When all the tax revenue on petrol and diesel starts to dry up then there will be a tax on electricity for cars. Im waiting for the day when you have to have a special socket to charge your car, that it cant be charged otherwise. 10c a unit + 50c tax for using it to charge your car. Watch and see.

What are you so surprised about, you live in Western Europe where taxation and vast sums of it at that is widely accepted and encouraged!

cros13

mundogas wrote: »

At time of very high demand or a problem with electricity supply EV's could stop charging or even help support the electricity grid.

That's a contributing factor too, again though in the real world there would be something like a separate feed off the main house meter for dispatchable loads and V2G.

Although I think V2G is going nowhere. Why pay for a V2G system (inverters etc) to put extra cycles on your car's battery when you can buy a ~14kWh Tesla powerwall 2 for €6k
that sits there all the time, doesn't require as much power electronics and is actually designed and built for the job.

mundogas

cros13 wrote: »

Although I think V2G is going nowhere. Why pay for a V2G system (inverters etc) to put extra cycles on your car's battery when you can buy a ~14kWh Tesla powerwall 2 for €6k
that sits there all the time, doesn't require as much power electronics and is actually designed and built for the job.

Yeah that makes sense, i would think cycles on the car battery may be less of an issue as size of battery increases. I was thinking I would like a powerwall myself but lately I'm coming around to the idea of why bother if the car could do the same job when I'm home. Lifestyle and number of people in household would be a factor to consider of course.

Evd-Burner

Just wondering how they would implement it when it comes to people charging the car from self generated electricity. In the coming years I reckon more and more people will have solar panels etc.

76544567

Evd-Burner wrote: »

Just wondering how they would implement it when it comes to people charging the car from self generated electricity. In the coming years I reckon more and more people will have solar panels etc.

They'll have to replace the tax from fossil fuels.
By the time they get tomorrow you can bet other countries will have done it and we will just copy them.
Or given our governments love of excessive taxation maybe we will be first.

76544567

Evd-Burner wrote: »

Just wondering how they would implement it when it comes to people charging the car from self generated electricity. In the coming years I reckon more and more people will have solar panels etc.

They'll have to replace the tax from fossil fuels.
By the time they get tomorrow you can bet other countries will have done it and we will just copy them.
Or given our governments love of excessive taxation maybe we will be first.

Evd-Burner

76544567 wrote: »

They'll have to replace the tax from fossil fuels.
By the time they get tomorrow you can bet other countries will have done it and we will just copy them.
Or given our governments love of excessive taxation maybe we will be first.

But how can they tax you on something that you didn't buy? It would be equivalent to taxing somebody who grows their own potatoes.

They would need a complete shift in how they tax cars in general as currently it is based on emissions.

At the same time they might earn more money elsewhere. IE if the electricity comes from renewable sources in Ireland that would mean that we are not importing from elsewhere and more money would stay local.

76544567

Evd-Burner wrote: »

But how can they tax you on something that you didn't buy?

Like plastics bags?

NIMAN

Evd-Burner wrote: »

But how can they tax you on something that you didn't buy? It would be equivalent to taxing somebody who grows their own potatoes.

You'll have to buy a turbine, solar panels etc to reduce your energy bills.

Evd-Burner

76544567 wrote:

Like plastics bags?

That's handing over a material possession, a physical object. A cost that was previously covered by the retailer and tax/duties added to discourage it's use and encourage reusable bags.

NIMAN wrote:

You'll have to buy a turbine, solar panels etc to reduce your energy bills.

That's exactly what I mean. How would a meter on the car work if one was to self generate?

cros13

76544567 wrote: »

They'll have to replace the tax from fossil fuels.

No they don't. A country's finances don't resemble a personal or business balance sheet. Fossil fuels are a balance of trade problem for us which is the biggest reason it's taxed like it is.

The taxes capture revenue in a manner that increases the cost to the consumer of a commodity that we don't produce domestically and want to discourage excessive consumption of.
We spend more than €7.2 billion a year ex. tax on liquid fossil fuels (this includes things like heavy fuel oils) which we send to countries that don't in turn purchase much of other products we produce.

When an EV owner charges their car they make efficient use of a resource (electricity) that we produce almost exclusively domestically with only 20 - 50% of that production (depending on time of use) requiring an imported primary feedstock.

EV owners pay:
Excise on the electricity
VAT on the electricity
A higher proportion of the capital costs for the distribution network and generation (night rate power being lower margin).
Road Tax

The money we save on transportation costs mostly stays in the country and is taxed further as we purchase other goods, place it on deposit or use it to employ others. The money sent to Russia and Norway et al. for petroleum products doesn't continue to churn in our economy generating jobs and tax revenue like that.

No switch is going to happen overnight. And we're not that dependant on excise duty from fuel anyway, in fact as much as half of money raised petrol/diesel excise over the next 10 years will be used to pay the fines for failing to meet our emissions targets and associated costs.

The wind power we produce also goes to investors many which are not based in Ireland and a lot of that money comes from us through tax .

We get nothing back.

76544567

cros13 wrote: »

No they don't. A country's finances don't resemble a personal or business balance sheet. Fossil fuels are a balance of trade problem for us which is the biggest reason it's taxed like it is.

The taxes capture revenue in a manner that increases the cost to the consumer of a commodity that we don't produce domestically and want to discourage excessive consumption of.
We spend more than 7.2 billion a year ex. tax on liquid fossil fuels which we send to countries that don't in turn purchase much of other products we produce.

When an EV owner charges their car they make efficient use of a resource (electricity) that we produce almost exclusively domestically with only 20 - 50% of that production (depending on time of use) requiring an imported primary feedstock.

EV owners pay:
Excise on the electricity
VAT on the electricity
A higher proportion of the capital costs for the distribution network and generation (night rate power being lower margin).
Road Tax

The money we save on transportation costs mostly stays in the country and is taxed further as we purchase other goods, place it on deposit or use it to employ others. The money sent to Russia and Norway et al. for petroleum products doesn't continue to churn in our economy generating jobs and tax revenue like that.

I hope thinking that helps you sleep at night.
I worked somewhere in the past where I was privy to conversations about raising money by memebers of government.
You wouldnt believe the things they were talking about taxing to raise money.
You probably heard one of the most hilarious. It was about taxing text messages. That one was leaked among others, but it was the one that made the most headlines and buried all the rest of them.

cros13

We got revenue from construction of the wind farms in the form of the site materials and labor spend.

The cost of REFIT and similar incentives is a pittance in the grand scheme of things. Out of the newly increased PSO levy it's an amount equivalent to less than 0.32% of 2016 government revenue.

cros13

76544567 wrote: »

I worked somewhere in the past where I was privy to conversations about raising money by memebers of government.

I've worked in those hallways myself. Used to spend some of my workdays looking in the taoiseach's window.

I know that TPTB's current back pocket plan is satellite road pricing. TII and others have had a number of long term programs preparing for that.

isnottheword

Evd-Burner wrote: »

That's exactly what I mean. How would a meter on the car work if one was to self generate?

If you go down the road of micro-gen, then from a tax perspective you'll be fine. However, will they incentivise micro-gen and are they? I bet they won't and they are not right now. Not everyone will be in a position (for one reason or another - be it location or cost) to look at micro-gen. This will be compounded by the fact that policy will be such that commercial scale projects will receive taxpayers money whereas community based schemes or micro-gen will be ignored/neglected.

They will transition us all across eventually - then replace the loss in motor/fuel taxes with increased taxes on electricity use.


Right now, there isn't even a feed-in tariff! How bad is that.


As mad lad rightly pointed out, there are commercial schemes in play - often not even with irish investors behind them (although does it really matter?) - that are funded with taxpayers money - but with no benefit to ordinary citizens.

In terms of wind, I don't believe it to be an eyesore or that its a major factor in noise pollution (so long as basic guidelines are adhered to). However, i do believe that we are being sold down the river with large commercial schemes. Micro-gen and particularly community based gen should be highly incentivised and nurtured.

The Problem with a FIT is that it will have to cost more than the commercial rates the ESB pay for electricity and as we have seen in Germany, it will raise the cost of electricity as the tax payer will have to subsidise it.

Germans pay a lot more for electricity. I think my Partners Parents pay something like 25-30 C for Day and 18 or so cent for night, I can get the exact figures off of them.

The other side of that is they get a very generous FIT, they export all the excess and run the storage heaters when needed and on sunny days if they're home in Winter, they can run a lot of the heating practically for free via their 14 KWp solar array.

Heat pump would be great with solar PV but you need a very efficient and well sealed house for this.

isnottheword

Deleted User wrote: »

Germans pay a lot more for electricity. I think my Partners Parents pay something like 25-30 C for Day and 18 or so cent for night, I can get the exact figures off of them.

The Germans are pragmatic and smart generally. They have higher fuel prices to drive efficiency - something that is core to their mindset in any event.

There's nothing wrong with taxes - be they low or high taxes as long as the money returns to the citizen efficiently in some form or another. It's in this respect that we fail.