Daily Mail's agenda on Brexit

Brandnew404

Surely other people noticed in the run up to the Brexit vote how the UK's version of The Daily Mail clearly had an agenda to try get people to vote out of the EU? Even now when I look at the daily mail they've an awful lot of stories up each week which you could really just call anti EU propoganda

What bothers me is that the Brexit vote was such a tight margin and I think that the Daily Mail definitely swayed the way a lot of people voted with their unbalabaced reporting

Jan_de_Bakker

No different to the BBC or Guardians support to remain in the EU.
All media companies will have their own bias, there is no one completely neutral .

Brandnew404

Jan_de_Bakker wrote: »

No different to the BBC or Guardians support to remain in the EU.
All media companies will have their own bias, there is no one completely neutral .

I'd get over a bit of bias but they never once said anything which was any bit Pro EU…

Chips Lovell

They never have. I'm not sure why you're surprised by it.

Jan_de_Bakker

Have the guardian or BBC ever said anything pro Brexit ?

Knasher

The EU set up a page specifically to comment on the stuff the UK papers were making up over the years:
http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

I don't know if they felt the need to set up a version for any other country. And it wasn't just the daily mail that was at it, the telegram was just as active, just more professional looking.

demfad

Jan_de_Bakker wrote: »

Have the guardian or BBC ever said anything pro Brexit ?

Yes they have. The Guardian is anti Brexit but in fairness they report both sides and are lead by evidence and rational argument. Yesterday in BBCs coverage of the white paper release noted at the time that it was given to the opposition only 2 mins before teh debate started. They covered Keir Starmer in outrage. They never subsequently mentioned this in any further coverage. Giveing a white paper out 2 minutes before a debate is unheard of and Davis was not able to explain away the logical conclusion that it was a very last minute job.

Brandnew404

Do any of ye ever look at the comments section on the anti eu articles on the daily mails website? Scary isn't the word

murphaph

Knasher wrote: »

The EU set up a page specifically to comment on the stuff the UK papers were making up over the years:
http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

I don't know if they felt the need to set up a version for any other country. And it wasn't just the daily mail that was at it, the telegram was just as active, just more professional looking.

Christ. If you feed any poor nation this drivel for long enough they'll vote to leave the EU. I have no doubt if the German press published this sort of trash day in day out for 40 years the German electorate would Gexit in a heartbeat.

Oh by the way, Boris Johnson worked as a journo in Brussels for the Telegraph and ha admitted making up and embellishing stories to cause indignation amongst its readers. At the end of the day most of what happens in Brussels is boring but useful, which sells precisely zero newspapers.

Jan_de_Bakker

Brandnew404 wrote: »

Do any of ye ever look at the comments section on the anti eu articles on the daily mails website? Scary isn't the word

Never go near the comments sections, like YT videos too ... awful garbage down there.

kksaints

The Express was as bad if not worse than the Daily Mail. Nearly everyday had some main headline about the EU attacking British values or something similar.

Brandnew404

How big of an influence do ye think the likes of the Daily Mail and other rags had on the outcome of the referendum?

The Daily Mail have some story today about how someone in Europe said they'd like the european flag placed somewhere on the jerseys of European football teams, the Daily Mail managed to write an entire article from that then about how the EU is on the way to becoming a superstate and all the usual bs

murphaph

Brandnew404 wrote: »

How big of an influence do ye think the likes of the Daily Mail and other rags had on the outcome of the referendum?

The Daily Mail have some story today about how someone in Europe said they'd like the european flag placed somewhere on the jerseys of European football teams, the Daily Mail managed to write an entire article from that then about how the EU is on the way to becoming a superstate and all the usual bs

All these trashy tabloids and "respectable" Euro-sceptic papers like the Torygraph are partially responsible. I hope these wasters are all unemployed when they do finally leave the EU and there's no Brussels to bash any more.

Brandnew404

Do ye think Theresa May really wants to leave the EU? She was totally opposed to it before the referendum so she clearly understands that they should stay within the EU… I think she's just going through the motions of pretending to want to leave the EU… hypothetically if the UK were to get a good trade deal off the EU (they won't) then all the remaining EU member states would have to sign off on the deal which wouldn't happen because why should the UK get to have their own set of rules… so the UK are almost certainly going to be made an example of and get a brutal trade deal from the EU… so then the MP's or whoever it is that will be faced with voting on whether or not to accept the trade deal will be faced with (A) accepting the deal, leave the EU and face financial ruin or (B) stay in the EU and don't ruin their country

I think if the UK government were open about being anti Brexit the MP's know that a general election would most likely be soon called and that's obviously something they don't want

PeadarCo

kksaints wrote:

The Express was as bad if not worse than the Daily Mail. Nearly everyday had some main headline about the EU attacking British values or something similar.

What's the reasoning behind all this negativity? Especially when the UK was a big driver of the common market and eastern Europe expansion and outside the EU the European court of human rights. Sell newspapers? Its just something I don't get.

Lemming

Brandnew404 wrote: »

How big of an influence do ye think the likes of the Daily Mail and other rags had on the outcome of the referendum?

A very large influence. I would say the tabloids have - all things considered and spread over the last two decades - been the single biggest driver of anti-EU sentiment in the UK. Considering that every time I've walked past a petrol station forecourt or entered a supermarket, the first thing you see (or next to first thing in a supermarket at any rate ... ) are the newspaper stands. The UK red-tops will almost always draw the eye due to their gaudy colours and absurdly large headline fonts. And almost every day I see at least one rag with an anti-EU spin on the front of it. The sheer volume of propoganda (lets not beat about the bush, that's exactly what most of it is) attacking the EU is - and has been since long before Wrexsh1t was set in motion - outragous. And don't forget that this has been a staple of British tabloids for over twenty years.

murphaph

The British government wants no such vote! At the end they would at most want to allow parliament to vote on accepting the deal or rejecting it and walking out on WTO terms, ie with no trade deal in place with the EU.

I'm also not super enthusiastic about the UK being able to tie the whole EU up in Brexit negotiations for 2 years and then say "actually we're grand".

Lemming

murphaph wrote: »

I'm also not super enthusiastic about the UK being able to tie the whole EU up in Brexit negotiations for 2 years and then say "actually we're grand".

TBH, I'd rather that (if you'll pardon my vested self-interest given I live in the UK .. ) than the alternative which is - at best - economically damaging for everyone involved in some way shape or form. A slap upside the head two years in the making and "carry on as you were" seems the better deal in that scenario. That of course is assuming no other crazy dilemmas occur in the intervening time that require the EU's undivided attention and/or damage-control.

murphaph

Lemming wrote: »

TBH, I'd rather that (if you'll pardon my vested self-interest given I live in the UK .. ) than the alternative which is - at best - economically damaging for everyone involved in some way shape or form. A slap upside the head two years in the making and "carry on as you were" seems the better deal in that scenario. That of course is assuming no other crazy dilemmas occur in the intervening time that require the EU's undivided attention and/or damage-control.

The problem is that the UK would be flip flopping with every change of government. It's not healthy for the EU to have a large member state teetering on the brink all the time.

I do understand your personal position however. I'd surely feel the very same if I lived in the UK myself.

Brandnew404

I think a lot of British people that voted to leave the EU did do because they dislike how racially diverse the UK is now… they seem to blame that on the EU's freedom of movement but I think surely it's got a lot to do with the colonies Britain set up all over the world, the people in the colonies rightfully made use of their right to come to the UK and live there and now British people are all upset over it

Lemming

Brandnew404 wrote: »

I think a lot of British people that voted to leave the EU did do because they dislike how racially diverse the UK is now… they seem to blame that on the EU's freedom of movement but I think surely it's got a lot to do with the colonies Britain set up all over the world, the people in the colonies rightfully made use of their right to come to the UK and live there and now British people are all upset over it

It's less to do with racial diversity outside of the usual sterotype folks and more to do with successive Tory governments cutting services, decimating industry and the like and trying to shift the blame about it to someone else. Namely the EU.

The DM is one of the 'most read news websites' in the world (Rank:8), only beaten by the large US/Int'l TV news networks, NYT and Ya-Googles.

53,000,000 - Estimated Unique Monthly Visitors
117 - Compete Rank
219 - Quantcast Rank
97 - Alexa Rank

The only UK hosted site that gets more views, is the eBay UK group (inc. Gumtree Ads etc).

In print circulation, only The Sun & Mirror compete with it, the Guardian paper sells about 1/3rd of it. Guess bad news sells.

If they put a QR code link to the recent Trump Petition, on the front page. it may well generate over 2m votes.

RDM_83 again

Lemming wrote: »

It's less to do with racial diversity outside of the usual sterotype folks and more to do with successive Tory governments cutting services, decimating industry and the like and trying to shift the blame about it to someone else. Namely the EU.

I am not sure thats true either, I would say a more important root cause is the UK not applying the brake to migration from the Eastern accession states that France and Germany applied and that happened in the Blair years.

For example Andrew Neather who was writing speeches for that government and was very much clued into behind the scenes thought processes has stated that they wanted to "rub the Right's nose in diversity".

I don't think we would have had Brexit if the EU had allowed some sort rational controls where there is major imbalances in migration between countries.
e.g something like allowing an government to apply an emergency brake when the ratio of X countries citizens into Y is twice the number of Y's citizens into X.

Functionally I don't think the EU was set up to have such large gaps in terms of wealth and purchasing power parity between countries (countries like Ireland and Portugal joining were only small additions of population at the time)

Lemming

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I am not sure thats true either, I would say a more important root cause is the UK not applying the brake to migration from the Eastern accession states that France and Germany applied and that happened in the Blair years.

Cries of immigration are a symptom, not the cause. Explain Wales. Explain Cornwall. Explain Sunderland.

Most of the areas that voted in strong numbers to leave are economically starved or lagging far behind the Greater London region. There is a very strong sense of divide between south & north England. It's very easy to get people who are disenfranchised with the government - and the Tories are not well liked across the North of England because of their legacy during the 1980s - and perceive gloablisation as "elites sucking us dry" to vote against whatever the government wants for the sake of it. It's even easier to get disenfranchised people to vote against a Tory government because there is a rather strong argument given past history for the rationale of "if the Tories want it, it can't be good for me".

The rot that has set in was not caused by immigration.

RDM_83 again

Lemming wrote: »

Cries of immigration are a symptom, not the cause. Explain Wales. Explain Cornwall. Explain Sunderland.

Most of the areas that voted in strong numbers to leave are economically starved or lagging far behind the Greater London region. There is a very strong sense of divide between south & north England. It's very easy to get people who are disenfranchised with the government - and the Tories are not well liked across the North of England because of their legacy during the 1980s - and perceive gloablisation as "elites sucking us dry" to vote against whatever the government wants for the sake of it. It's even easier to get disenfranchised people to vote against a Tory government because there is a rather strong argument given past history for the rationale of "if the Tories want it, it can't be good for me".

The rot that has set in was not caused by immigration.

While thats all true to a certain extent, just because people aren't in area that experiences large social change doesn't mean they aren't very much aware of the areas that have.
In counterpoint to what your saying you have the areas around London that voted to leave that are mainly inhabited by ex Londoners.
After having lived in England for a bit I do think that for at least the Polish and also I think for a lot of other eastern/central European places there is a fairly substantial culture gap thats not half as severe as between these groups as the Irish.

Lemming

RDM_83 again wrote: »

In counterpoint to what your saying you have the areas around London that voted to leave that are mainly inhabited by ex Londoners.
After having lived in England for a bit I do think that for at least the Polish and also I think for a lot of other eastern/central European places there is a fairly substantial culture gap thats not half as severe as between these groups as the Irish.

I can't speak for the Greater London area as I've not spent much time in those quarters; but I live (and have done for several years) in the North of England. Any sense of 'culture' shock between walking down a street with polish shops is mitigated twenty times over with the sheer ease at which one can find Indian or Pakistani (to pick two easily identifiable cultures) shops. Can you say "Bradford" quick enough? Parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester easily follow suit. Culture gaps are a bit of a red-herring for this particular argument. They add to a sense of "us and them" most certainly, but all things considered it's not a culture gap that's led the UK to this point imo. It comes back to resentment from the locals at perception of successive governments p1ssing all over them whilst watching other areas - particularly London - do well economically. Throw in twenty years of tabloid propoganda, add in an extra sprinking of resentment when a foreign family move in next door and one of them gets a job doing the same thing as you only they do well at it and it's not too difficult to see where the urban myths of "xyz nationality are stealing our jobs", etc. originate from.

ancapailldorcha

Why do people keep talking about culture gaps? What does this even mean? I live in a very ethnic part of London. I got a bit of a shock when I moved here I admit but I've had no actual problems. It's not a ghetto despite what the likes of UKIP would have you believe. These people act in much the same way as the native Brits, they consume and go about their business just like anyone else.

Leonard Hofstadter

The British press is incredibly biased, as we know the right wing xenophobic tabloids have literally made up stories and their constant propaganda has convinced many of the ordinary voters that the EU is the source of all their problems (in much the same way we were blaming the EU for our own self inflicted wounds as a result of the stupidity of our electorate voting for FF three times in a row during the boom).

Having said all that, I like most of them a lot, nobody has ever said anything that could even be remotely considered anti-Irish or xenophobic to me, whereas I still hear the odd thing about 'the English' at home (even though Wales also voted to leave, yet somehow the Welsh don't get the criticism at all), sadly. That really gets on my nerves, claiming we're a 'better' nation than they are is exactly the thing we complained about them when they occupied the country, we're showing ourselves to be exactly the same. Of course, as someone who's lived in the North of England for over four years (in an area that did vote to leave, albeit narrowly), they aren't really that different to us despite all the guff and bluster by some at home. Some of the things I've heard the likes of UKIP politicians say about foreigners over here are things that I've heard at home, the big difference is nobody has figured out a way of saying UKIP like things and being electorally successful with it (mercifully) and obviously we don't have hard right papers like the Daily Mail and Express (thanks be to goodness).

I know plenty of EU nationals who have also not experienced a single racist comment either before, during, or after the referendum. It is very unfair to say that all leave voters are xenophobic racists and UKIP or BNP type people, the vast majority of the Brits are very open minded and tolerant of people from other countries, it just doesn't bother them in the way I've heard people at home talk about foreigners (especially our nearest neighbour).

Some of them genuinely do believe the EU is holding them back and it's not about racism. Others do believe the guff about a 'Global Britain' and believe that they have far more influence on the global stage than they really do.

Others are just against the idea of laws being made outside the UK in principle and know there is an economic drawback to restoring some sovereignty but believe it is 'worth it'.

There are a myriad of reasons that are not bounded by Europhobia (although certainly a strong anti-EU sentiment there) or xenophobia or any kind of phobia but what is certainly true (at least amongst those who've told me they voted to leave and even amongst some remainers) is that there is an underlying sense of superiority about how 'great' and 'important' the UK is on the world stage, the old colonial mindset kicks in at times.

The stuff about being the 'world's fifth biggest economy' (even though it's now the 8th), for example. There is a total naievity about the EU giving them a good deal, I've heard the 'EU needs us more than we need them' line a few times, I've also heard the 'EU will give us a good deal because they won't want to disadvantage their own economies' line, of course the EU will want to give Britain a bad deal unless they capitulate on certain things, and why wouldn't they, sure if the EU lets the UK have whatever it wants we'd all want to leave.

Any of my fellow EU friends living there are all agreed that the UK is not going to get what it wants from Europe - we know this because we all agree that keeping the EU as a whole going is better for our countries as a whole than a good deal with Britain, since after all, a 'good' deal for the UK means that everyone else will want to leave, too. We all like the UK and the British very much - but not so much that we want to see our own countries leaving the EU - so if that means we have to take a bit of a hit so as to preserve the EU for the other 27 countries that will want to be open minded and keep their doors open to the outside world, we're prepared to take the consequences.

Indeed, we already have taken a hit, because of course our money is now worth far less in Euro terms since the referendum so going home is more expensive and even moving back to our home countries is more costly because Sterling has lost so much value - so ironically we're more likely to stay as it's the only way we can afford to buy a house and do those kind of grown up things (so much for 'taking back control' and having less immigrants eh?). Being in the EU has got to be better than being outside the EU otherwise it might as well not exist.

Let's not forget from an Irish point of view that of course we want (and indeed, need) a decent deal with the UK for so many reasons, there is all the ties with the North and the fact that Anglo-Irish relations are thankfully so much better than they used to be. The UK often backed us up in Europe and of course for all guff about the 'six counties' and all that Shinner claptrap we still are more likely to immigrate to the UK than anywhere else and they're still one of our most important trading partners. I for one am glad that we have a more grown up and mature relationship with our nearest neighbour than we used to.

All that said, the EU is clearly where our interests should align, yes of course the UK is an important trading partner and if I may use Theresa May's favoured phrase, of course we should try to be the UK's 'best friend and close neighbour', especially given how our countries are linked and how much better British-Irish relations are these days, nobody wants to go back to the bad old days (I hope), but the EU is more important, Belgium is now our biggest export market for example. Just because Britain has voted to turn inwards doesn't mean we need to copy them. I have a vested interest in not seeing a penal deal for the UK (and I don't believe it's in Ireland's interest for a bad deal, either), but I'm equally clear that being outside the club has got to be worse than being in the club, the EU has brought about an extraordinary turnaround in our nation's fortunes and we shouldn't forget that. It's not perfect, we were not well treated by the EU when we need them the most (although as I said at the start of my post, a lot of our wounds were self inflicted by voting for FF three times in a row) and we should never have joined the Euro (the Brits were dead right on that one), or at the very least not joined the Euro unless the Brits did the same thing, and yes, the leave voters have a point about democracy and decisions being made in Brussels instead of Dublin, but we've done so well out of the EU it more than compensates for the loss of sovereignty, so I want it to succeed and we need it to succeed. Indeed, given our abject failure to govern ourselves and the appalling populism that goes on in the country at times, such as the culture of entitlement and the belief that water should just magically fall from the sky and we shouldn't have to pay a penny for it despite the cost of it, I am damn glad the EU has some lever of control over us, half the things that helped transform the country would never have been done were it not for EU directives and good old technique of 'blaming' the EU for making us do things that are in the long term national interest but unpopular with the various NIMBYs in the country.

Indeed, it might be the chance for us to stand tall and get rid of the dependency on the British once and for all (after all, that surely was the whole point of seeking independence from Britain, that we got to control our own destiny and had the freedom to make our own decisions), and it might lead to something we've failed to do ourselves in the long run, which is for the North to vote to subsume itself into the Republic via peaceful means and for Scotland to get control of its own destiny instead of being ignored by Westminster (which is basically what's happening at the moment). Now, wouldn't that be quite something?

AndyBoBandy

Brandnew404 wrote: »

What bothers me is that the Brexit vote was such a tight margin and I think that the Daily Mail definitely swayed the way a lot of people voted with their unbalabaced reporting

Bob Geldof and his rich friends on a boat taking the piss out of the fishermen didn't exactly help the remain cause either! But at least they interrupted a Farrage interview!!

Sam Russell

The Daily Mail and the rest of the Tory press were not anti-EU for the past few years but were extremely anti-EU for the past forty years.

They made up stories and span stories to exaggerate the anti_EU element as much as possible. Every edition would contain several anti-EU stories, and eventually it would affect the opinion of the most enlightened reader - not that many of them would be that enlightened.

Bent bananas banned for God's sake.

ancapailldorcha

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Bob Geldof and his rich friends on a boat taking the piss out of the fishermen didn't exactly help the remain cause either! But at least they interrupted a Farrage interview!!

It was nothing to do with mocking fishermen. I'd like to point out that Nigel Farage only attended 1 out of 42 EU fisheries meetings. He made no attempt whatsoever to aid UK fishermen.