Charge point install - help please!

unkel

I got approval this morning for a free charge point installation from ESB ecars. This will be done within 14 working days. Plenty of time as my car won't be here until some time next month

Now, this free install is fairly limited in that it has to be wall mounted, and no further than 10m from the consumer unit (fuse board) and some other limitations, incl the charger supplied only being 3.6kW (16A). On several occasions the approval email says about anything outside of these terms "the cost of this .... is not covered by the free installation and would be payable to the contractor if required."

Here's my situation:



My fuse board is in my entrance / hall on the inside of the left outside wall just behind and left of the house number 12. Now a charger mounted on the wall around there would be ok if you only had 1 car and it was a Nissan Leaf, with the charger in the middle of the front of the car. But my car will be a Hyundai Ioniq with the charger on the left near the back of the car. And as you can see, I prefer to have my second car parked closer to the house.

I think I ideally would have the charger in the middle between my drive way and my neighbour's drive way, just behind that first bush that you can see there, so it is nicely out of view. The distance from my fuse board to that bush is about 12-13m.

Questions:

- would the ESB ecars contractor install a charge point where I mention and if so, how much would you reckon he'd charge extra? The driveway is concrete and the wire has to go across the concrete side entrance left of where you can see my front door. I don't need the concrete drilled, a strong reinforced cable conduct will do? The rest of the cable can easily be buried a few inches into the soil or just at ground level through the bushes between the driveways. How deep does this need to be or is a strong reinforced cable conduct enough?

- the Ioniq can charge at 7.2kW. I don't really need it, but it's not optimal to only get a free 3.6kW charger. Are all the current chargers upgradeable? If so or not, how much will the contractor charge to upgrade it?

- would I be better off getting everything ready the way I want by getting a spark myself to do all the prep work and then the ESB ecars contractor can just finish off, or is it wiser to let the ESB ecars contractor come over first to tell me exactly what he needs doing (or maybe he will even do it himself)?

- how long is the cable ESB ecars provide / how long will it reach / stretch from the charging point to the connector on the car?

- what would you do, anything else / differently? Money is tight enough, but I do need a workable solution. A charger at the wall of my house would not be a good solution

Help much appreciated!

n97 mini

One thing of note is that the "free" CPs are not tethered, i.e. they are just a socket. You need to use a cable to connect it to your car, so a long cable will do it. (edit: see below)

The other questions are how long is a piece of string. You really need to ask the installer what it will cost you: he's the only one who knows.

- Burying cable is not as simple as you think. It has to go quite a distance down according to the regs, and regardless of whether it is concrete or clay it has to be laid at the same depth. This is 300m to 600mm depending on cable.
- Some CPs (I believe) are 7.2kw capable. Mad_Lad has one I think.
- Probably best to talk to the sparks first. No point in doing preparation work if he shows up and says it's wrong.
- I'm not sure you're supplied with a cable with the CP. That comes with your car. (edit: see above!)
- I'm in a similar boat except we have a dividing wall between our drive and next door. My plan is to mount the CP a bit down the drive (ours is a bit longer than your's, we'll fit 3 cars end to end) on the wall. The cable can be run along the wall, but we still have to get it across the path to the wall.

If you want to upgrade to 7.2kw in the future you will need heavier cable. You can ask him to install that anyway. The same gauge as the charge cable which is 3 x 6mm2 iirc.

KCross

First off, its very much going to depend on the guy that comes to your door as to how receptive he is to anything non-standard being asked for. Cutting concrete and putting up pedestals is not standard electrical work!

These guys generally want the easy job but see who you get first.

unkel wrote: »

- would the ESB ecars contractor install a charge point where I mention and if so, how much would you reckon he'd charge extra? The driveway is concrete and the wire has to go across the concrete side entrance left of where you can see my front door. I don't need the concrete drilled, a strong reinforced cable conduct will do? The rest of the cable can easily be buried a few inches into the soil or just at ground level through the bushes between the driveways. How deep does this need to be or is a strong reinforced cable conduct enough?

Since its outside and buried it will have to be SWA cable which will add cost.

I dont think he will be that happy about having to cut concrete to lay a cable. I think you'd be better off doing that yourself and even laying the cable yourself and then get him to connect it up.

Also, the unit supplied will be a wall mounted one. What will you mount it on by the bush? Are you going to put in a pedestal to mount it on? Very doubtful if he will put up a pedestal for you.

unkel wrote: »

- the Ioniq can charge at 7.2kW. I don't really need it, but it's not optimal to only get a free 3.6kW charger. Are all the current chargers upgradeable? If so or not, how much will the contractor charge to upgrade it?

They wont upgrade it for you(or at least they werent up to now). You'll have to do that after they leave but you need to make sure the fuse and cable they put in is capable of taking 32A so its critical you get them to wire it to support the upgrade otherwise you'll be pulling the cable out again!

unkel wrote: »

- would I be better off getting everything ready the way I want by getting a spark myself to do all the prep work and then the ESB ecars contractor can just finish off, or is it wiser to let the ESB ecars contractor come over first to tell me exactly what he needs doing (or maybe he will even do it himself)?

I'd go with the former but no harm in getting them to take a look and quote for it.

unkel wrote: »

- how long is the cable ESB ecars provide / how long will it reach / stretch from the charging point to the connector on the car?

I thought they provided an untethered charger? What do the docs you got say?

Usually the default is 5m for a tethered charger.

unkel wrote: »

- what would you do, anything else / differently? Money is tight enough, but I do need a workable solution. A charger at the wall of my house would not be a good solution

One other point.... will your neighbour be happy with an EVSE in that bush. It looks narrow with no dividing wall and your EVSE might be visible on their side? They might not like the look of it.

slicedpanman

Hi unkle,
I found that the ESB contractor, Nigel, to be very helpful. When he rang to arrange the appointment I explained, like yourself that it was defo going to be non standard.

He was fine with that... Called round explained what cable I needed to get, where to lay it, etc. So I could get the install I wanted. He told me to phone him when I'd got my part done and he was back a few days later hooking up the charge point at no cost.

n97 mini

slicedpanman wrote: »

Hi unkle,
I found that the ESB contractor, Nigel, to be very helpful. When he rang to arrange the appointment I explained, like yourself that it was defo going to be non standard.

He was fine with that... Called round explained what cable I needed to get, where to lay it, etc. So I could get the install I wanted. He told me to phone him when I'd got my part done and he was back a few days later hooking up the charge point at no cost.

How far of a run from the fuse board?

Also, did you have to cross concrete?

KCross

Two other things came to mind....

- The width of the dividing space between your neighbour is what, 2ft wide?
I dont know about the ESB supplied EVSE but my Rolec untethered unit sticks out 6in from the wall and when I plug in the cars cable it is another 7in beyond the EVSE again. Add in the space the pedestal will take up. So, you only have about 1ft of space in the bush assuming the neighbour owns half of it and so with the car plugged and the cable sticking out at a right angle its going to be sticking into the driveway waiting for someone to walk buy and break it by mistake.... I'd be inclined to take some measurements there and see what works.

- Could you post a pic of whats at the other side of the tall bush near your front door? Is there a concrete wall there dividing you and your neighbour? Maybe go there.... shorter run from the CU(less concrete cutting etc), out of sight and just get a longer cable. You can get retractable cables but that adds cost too.

isnottheword

@Unkel - make your way over to the IEVOA FB page - and post up your query there. There are a number of installers (including the esb sub-contractor/installer mentioned on this thread) that check in there. You'll get exactly the info you need by posting there.

Additionally some of the membership have faced exactly the scenario you are looking at - and got it sorted. Its going to cost you quite a bit extra - but you know that already.

Padraig Mor

As someone who has to regularly swap cars around in the driveway to charge my Leaf, let me tell you it's a pain in the ass! If you can arrange convenient charging at the back of the driveway, definitely go for it. If the above is correct re digging etc, I don't see it coming cheap though! Would reversing into the spot and buying a 10 metre charge cable be a viable (and cheaper!) solution?

stesaurus

I'll echo what others have said. Talk to Nigel and see if you can do most of the work yourself as they won't be able to lay cable under concrete. Also try find out what EVSE they'll be supplying you and see if you can get the ABL unit as that's flash-able to be a 32a charger. Again talk with Nigel and have proper cable and rcbo to handle this first.

Or another option which is what I did. My install wasn't going to be straight forward and I was moving house around the time so I just went ahead with the free charger at my parents' home and did then non-standard myself at my own place a few weeks later after moving.

unkel

Reversing into the spot is an option (zero cost as everything would be within the T&C of ESB ecars then). We have about 10 on street parking spaces for our cul-de-sac too and I can easily use one permanently for my second car. Many of my neighbours do for convenience sake. Herself is not keen on reversing the car in though...



Space between drives is barely more than about 30-35cm. Good point about my neighbour, I'll run it by him. Technically I guess we share ownership of that space. Although I moved in 17 years ago, dug up that space and planted plants. I've covered 100% of the maintenance of that strip over those 17 years. Neighbour only bought the house a couple of years ago.

Looks like a wise idea to get the ESB ecars contractor over first and see what he says and let him do the work or get someone else do the work. Or not get any work done (depending on costs). Time is on my side here thankfully.

Anyone any guesstimate of the cost of the prep work if I get someone to do it all (and then the ESB ecars contractor would do the rest for free)? €300, €600, €1000, €3000? Anyone done a similar job for any of you?

n97 mini

Can you install it on the lawn side? That strip is very narrow and as your neighbour isn't there 12 years you can't claim adverse possession.

It's also probably important to know what route cables and pipes are taking into your house. I know if I cut my path in one location that I'll cut the telephone wire.

KCross

I think its a bad idea to put it in the divider. Possibility of being broken, upsetting the neighbour and just looking odd.

What is at the front door side of the tall tree? Is there a concrete wall there dividing you and your neigbour or something you can mount on? That seems like a better place to me. Any pic of that?

n97 mini

I know those houses to see, I know someone living nearby, and I reckon I've found yours on Google maps. I would go down the wall under the meter box and into the path and then it's a short run under concrete to the edge of the lawn. Build a small pedestal on the lawn, down the side of the drive, wherever suits you.

You could conceivably cut less concrete by going a longer run, but it would involve tacking the cable to the "skirting" just below where the bricks stop.

Also, consider maybe getting a CP that has a tethered cable. It's a PITA having to use a separate cable, especially when it's wet and dirty. Don't want to be putting that into the nice clean car!

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Anyone any guesstimate of the cost of the prep work if I get someone to do it all (and then the ESB ecars contractor would do the rest for free)? €300, €600, €1000, €3000? Anyone done a similar job for any of you?

Take a look at this thread from Rafal. He did a nice clean pedestal type install and gave install costs etc.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057538444

unkel

Concrete pillar (end point of fence between neighbour and myself)



Mounting on that pillar a possibility? If so, does the cable have to go below the concrete path? Is a duct (reinforced) not possible / allowed / legal / safe?

@n97 mini - mounting at grass end is not a good option. Would still have to reverse the car in that way and the grass side is where all the "traffic" is: pedestrians / bikes. Or if you mean install it at the wall on the grass side. Yes, that would be a completely free solution, but car needs to be reversed in. Herself not too happy about that. And the "traffic" issue.

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

@n97 mini - mounting at grass end is not a good option. Would still have to reverse the car in that way and the grass side is where all the "traffic" is: pedestrians / bikes. Or if you mean install it at the wall on the grass side. Yes, that would be a completely free solution, but car needs to be reversed in. Herself not too happy about that. And the "traffic" issue.

No, I mean build a pedestal on the grass. It could be 2 feet back from the driveway (into the lawn) so as to avoid being in the way.

If the cable is long enough it would reach. But yeah, unfortunate the Ioniq's charge port is on the side.

stesaurus

I'd be hesitant of installing one of the standard wall units between you and your neighbour, you might have to go with a pedestal unit =$$$. It's a lot more open to the elements there as opposed to on a wall under the eaves. They're not that waterproof
Maybe the concrete pillar would be an option, get a loan of a kango hammer for the afternoon and diy?

isnottheword

If it was me, i'd go with an install close to the house/ ensuring the shortest cable run that you can (without it being an aesthetic eyesore).

The pedestal idea is going to cost you a fortune. Secondly, I still don't think it really solves problems for you - one car is going to be locked in by the other - regardless. As others have said, greater chance of it getting damaged. Lastly, its more open to the elements - potential for water ingress.

Perhaps the long cable run is the way to go (from a tethered unit).

unkel

Second car is not really an issue. It's a weekend car really and can either be parked in one of the many spaces on the road, or I can move the main car if I want to use the second car. That's what I do now mostly.

Long cable run might well be the way to go. Any idea how much extra a tethered unit with a 10m cable would cost me extra compared to the standard unit ESB ecars provides? I like the idea of a plug in the unit (for washing / hovering car, etc.) like in Rafal's setup. How much would that be extra? I do like the idea of tethered. Would save a lot of trouble getting the cable out of the car every time, and indeed putting it back in dirty. Tethered would even look and feel a bit like filling up an ICE. Handy for those of us not yet fully accustomed to the idea of an EV

n97 mini

Tethered CPs with longer than 5m cables are rare, they may not even exist!

As you get the CP free anyway you could just buy a 2nd cable, 10m or whatever, and leave it permanently plugged in to the CP.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Long cable run might well be the way to go. Any idea how much extra a tethered unit with a 10m cable would cost me extra compared to the standard unit ESB ecars provides? I like the idea of a plug in the unit (for washing / hovering car, etc.) like in Rafal's setup. How much would that be extra? I do like the idea of tethered. Would save a lot of trouble getting the cable out of the car every time, and indeed putting it back in dirty. Tethered would even look and feel a bit like filling up an ICE. Handy for those of us not yet fully accustomed to the idea of an EV

I dont think they give you the option of having a tethered one. You take what you get and thats it.... AFAIK.

If you wanted tethered, you could sell the one they install and swap it out for a tethered one. Rafal's is a Rolec. They are not cheap... e.g.
https://evonestop.co.uk/shop/wallpods-ev/wallpodev-multimode-iec62196-5m-tethered-lead-type-2-16amp/

unkel

n97 mini wrote: »

Tethered CPs with longer than 5m cables are rare, they may not even exist!

As you get the CP free anyway you could just buy a 2nd cable, 10m or whatever, and leave it permanently plugged in to the CP.

Didn't think of that, but it's likely what I'll go for, n97 mini. How about the free install on the wall left of my front door and just a long cable from there? Would it be necessary to roll the cable up towards the CP every time or could I leave it out there near where I actually charge the car? If the latter can be done, what do I need to do to make it safe? Apart from getting the bins out and having occasional use of the side entrance, there is almost zero traffic on that part of my drive.

I'll get the man to come out anyway and we'll discuss all my options.

KCross

n97 mini wrote: »

As you get the CP free anyway you could just buy a 2nd cable, 10m or whatever, and leave it permanently plugged in to the CP.

This is what I did.

unkel wrote: »

Would it be necessary to roll the cable up towards the CP every time or could I leave it out there near where I actually charge the car? If the latter can be done, what do I need to do to make it safe?

The main thing is to ensure that water doesnt get into the cable. If you are just going to throw it under the bush I dont think it would survive very long.

You'd need to plug it into a socket holder like this which would require a pedestal!:

https://evonestop.co.uk/shop/accessories/remote-wall-mount-type-2-iec62196-charge-gun-holster/

Or else roll it back up as far as your fence and hang it there ensuring the plug end is hanging down so that water doesnt get in.

unkel

I think a 10m cable + socket holder + DIY pedestal is the way to go for me

slicedpanman

n97 mini wrote: »

How far of a run from the fuse board?

Also, did you have to cross concrete?

My run was about 15 meters, partially under a paved driveway and on the side of a bike shed (not attached to the house)

I took up the driveway paving myself and put it back after the cable was run. I got the armoured cable and our dealer supplied an electrician, free of charge, to do the cable run and the ducting for the run that was not underground.

So all Nigel had to do was connect up at the fuse board and install and connect the unit

cros13

unkel wrote: »

Herself is not keen on reversing the car in though...

Has the OH ever had a car with a reversing camera and on screen guide lines? I reckon it's easier than parking nose-in. And the Ioniq comes with the camera as standard.

n97 mini wrote: »

Tethered CPs with longer than 5m cables are rare, they may not even exist!

Tesla's wall connector comes with an option of a 7.5m tethered cable. Works with the Ioniq. Easy to install and under €400.

unkel

cros13 wrote: »

Has the OH ever had a car with a reversing camera and on screen guide lines?

That's a good rational point. And it's not gonna work convincing her

Just as well as it just wouldn't be right. The drive way is narrow. We'd have to park with the drivers side very close to the bushes, to allow "traffic" of people and kids between the car (passenger side) and the grass, so it would be hard to get out of the car too.

slave1

My other half had the same comments, I took a sledge to the pillar one morning and comments null and void, took two foot off the wall and rebuilt the pillar, end of

unkel

Not sure what you did there, slave1

Any pics of your charge point install relative to your drive?

n97 mini

cros13 wrote: »

Has the OH ever had a car with a reversing camera and on screen guide lines? I reckon it's easier than parking nose-in. And the Ioniq comes with the camera as standard.



Tesla's wall connector comes with an option of a 7.5m tethered cable. Works with the Ioniq. Easy to install and under €400.

Not a huge difference but good to know.

KCross

cros13 wrote: »

Has the OH ever had a car with a reversing camera and on screen guide lines? I reckon it's easier than parking nose-in. And the Ioniq comes with the camera as standard.

The one in the Leaf is good but the big problem is dirt or rain droplets. They really need a cleaning mechanism that can be activated like the wipers.

n97 mini

KCross wrote: »

The one in the Leaf is good but the big problem is dirt or rain droplets. They really need a cleaning mechanism that can be activated like the wipers.

They're called fingers, and work quite well if used frequently!

slave1

unkel wrote: »

Not sure what you did there, slave1

Any pics of your charge point install relative to your drive?

Sorry, not a charge point comment, more than herself was nervous reversing into the driveway so I made it two foot winder one Saturday morning because I'd have enough ear ache.

I'll be in the same boat as you WRT install point in a few months so following this tread with interest, I'll likely go 32amp with socket as well but for sure will ask to visit one of ye guys to see with my own eyes...

KCross

n97 mini wrote: »

They're called fingers, and work quite well if used frequently!

Thats the problem!

KCross

@unkel, do you have an electric shower?

If you have, say, a 9kW shower and the Ioniq is pulling 7kW and you have a few other things you could blow your house fuse. You need to consider that.

You can go with the standard 16A charger which will limit your Ioniq charge to 3.6kW or you could install a priority switch where only the shower or the car can be on at any one time.

If you dont have an electric shower you'd probably be OK with a 32A charger.

unkel

No electric shower. Both showers and the bath are serviced from a 2 bar water pump (and a 360l hot water cylinder) heated by solar and / or gas. Best feature of my house :cool:

cros13

KCross wrote: »

The one in the Leaf is good but the big problem is dirt or rain droplets. They really need a cleaning mechanism that can be activated like the wipers.

I treated my camera lenses with RainX. Dust is still a problem but rain isn't.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

First off, its very much going to depend on the guy that comes to your door as to how receptive he is to anything non-standard being asked for. Cutting concrete and putting up pedestals is not standard electrical work!

Was here this morning and anything goes, incl. concrete pedestals etc. He'll price me up a few solutions.

slave1

Nice, I've my charger landing in the next week or so, so will be interesting to see how you get on

unkel

I'll probably go for the cheapo option. €0 costs for 16A wall unit install + €120 for upgrading cabling to 32A. Can change wall unit later / software upgrade it to 32A depending on the unit. Don't really have an appetite for spending well over a grand on a pedestal install, just for some convenience. And because of the issues mentioned here for having it installed between the driveways.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

I'll probably go for the cheapo option. €0 costs for 16A wall unit install + €120 for upgrading cabling to 32A. Can change wall unit later / software upgrade it to 32A depending on the unit. Don't really have an appetite for spending well over a grand on a pedestal install, just for some convenience. And because of the issues mentioned here for having it installed between the driveways.

Why €120 for upgraded 32A cable.... the difference should be negligible particularly if you are going for a short run, wall mounted option.

€120 sounds ridiculous.

I think my cable was €70ish for a 30m run. The difference between that and a 16A cable would have been 20-30 Euro at most. Where did €120 come from?

unkel

From the subcontractor. I'll question him about it if that's what he is going to quote me. And that's for the unit being only about 2-3m away from the customer unit (fusebox) in my house.

Thanks for the heads-up!

KCross

unkel wrote: »

From the subcontractor. I'll question him about it if that's what he is going to quote me. And that's for the unit being only about 2-3m away from the customer unit (fusebox) in my house.

Thanks for the heads-up!

6sqmm is the min for 32A. I put in 10sqmm.

Prices here and you can buy it per metre rather than the full 100m price.
http://www.eurosales.ie/products/TE6242Y.html

cros13

Price for 10sqmm SWA if you were considering burying the cable is ~€6/meter.

slave1

Why did you not go with armoured cable? Is your run all internal?

slave1

Just did a quick search for a priority switch, £95+ VAT, that's a bit steep!!

slave1

As a guide, local wholesalers quote over the phone, 10square armoured €4.20/m and €117 for the (Garo) Priority Switch

KCross

You only need the armoured cable if you have an outside underground run.
If its just going to the gable end of the house, standard cable is fine.

listermint

KCross wrote: »

You only need the armoured cable if you have an outside underground run.
If its just going to the gable end of the house, standard cable is fine.

It's euros extra and worthwhile for any external install.

slave1

I'm about a 10m run, half inside and half outside so going to use armoured all the way...

KCross

listermint wrote: »

It's euros extra and worthwhile for any external install.

I think its a requirement rather than just worthwhile, if its external.

slave1 wrote: »

I'm about a 10m run, half inside and half outside so going to use armoured all the way...

In that case, correct.