Volkswagen recall letter relating to emissions scandal

SusanC10

So we got a letter from VW Ireland saying that our car (2011 Passat Estate) needs a Software Update. The letter refers to previous correspondence but we did not receive any previous letters.

I understand that this has something to do with the emissions issue. I have phoned them and the guy I spoke to on the phone really couldn't explain to me what this update does and has said that this update will have no effect on the car.

Maybe I am missing something here (I would not be knowledgeable at all about cars) but if it will have no effect at all then what is the point of doing it ?

Should we have this done or not ? V confused here.

Thanks in advance.

Special Circumstances

SusanC10 wrote: »

Maybe I am missing something here (I would not be knowledgeable at all about cars) but if it will have no effect at all then what is the point of doing it ?
.

That, as they say, is the $10,000 question. Well, if you were in the states it would be worth $10k to you.

In Europe it's your fuel and time off work in exchange for ...

biko

I suppose the update is to correct the cheating computer.

Stallingrad

Ask can it be reversed if you are not happy with the results, slower, more mpg, etc.

Special Circumstances

Stallingrad wrote: »

Ask can it be reversed if you are not happy with the results, slower, more mpg, etc.

I'd want that in writing from anyone saying "it has no effect" over the phone!

SusanC10

biko wrote: »

I suppose the update is to correct the cheating computer.

I actually asked the guy on the phone was the Update to correct how the emissions were recorded on the car and he said No. At one point he said that it was to delete Software already installed and then said that it was to install software not installed and when I questioned this he said that it would have no effect whatsoever on the car so I gave up at that point !

I suppose I am wondering from a practical day-to-day use of the car what differences will I see myself ? Has anyone had it done already ?

Atlantic Dawn

As far as I know what it does is turns off the cheat mechanism so that if the EU tester restested the car for emissions they would be anything up to 4 times what they were originally recorded at. The cheat mechanism only kicked in when it detected conditions that were used for testing, your car should continuing emitting the same levels of emissions as it currently does for driving the car.

zilog_jones

Sounds like he doesn't have a clue what he's on about.

If it is the update to remove the "defeat device" software, there is no way it will have "no effect" on the performance of the engine and magically reduce emissions. However I have not seen any real feedback from European VW owners who've had the update to see how it does affect the car.

zilog_jones

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

As far as I know what it does is turns off the cheat mechanism so that if the EU tester restested the car for emissions they would be anything up to 4 times what they were originally recorded at. The cheat mechanism only kicked in when it detected conditions that were used for testing, your car should continuing emitting the same levels of emissions as it currently does for driving the car.

They can't just do that because then it wouldn't be compliant with the EU emissions requirements. It has to be able to perform within EU specs during normal driving without having specific code to cheat the tests.

mickdw

The way I see it, either the update has no effect making this a total fudge and a disgrace from vw or
It does have an effect and it makes the car less powerful or less fuel efficient. VW knew this when building the cars. To suggest that a bit of software can now make everything ok and have no unwanted effects is crazy.
I wouldnt bother going in for the update.

biko

mickdw wrote: »

I wouldnt bother going in for the update.

It's your choice but not doing so could affect warranty and resale value.

Atlantic Dawn

zilog_jones wrote: »

They can't just do that because then it wouldn't be compliant with the EU emissions requirements. It has to be able to perform within EU specs during normal driving without having specific code to cheat the tests.

It would be compliant at time of original test when car was first sold and defeat device was functioning, there's no facility for retorspective testing of cars after the defeat device is turned off so the EU are taking VW's word as gospel.

SusanC10

biko wrote: »

It's your choice but not doing so could affect warranty and resale value.

For a 2011 isn't the car out of Warranty ? Am not too worried about re-sale value tbh as we will keep this car until it is fit for the scrap-heap !

LoLth

2 thoughts:

1. could this software update be to do with the security certificate leak that needs to be replaced?

2. while the cheating software did alter the performance of the VW cars , was this not only under test conditions (and unsustainable in real world use). In which case the car should functional as normal with the only difference being when it detects a test being performed it doesn't hold in its farts anymore.

Special Circumstances

LoLth wrote: »

2 thoughts:

1. could this software update be to do with the security certificate leak that needs to be replaced?

2. while the cheating software did alter the performance of the VW cars , was this not only under test conditions (and unsustainable in real world use). In which case the car should functional as normal with the only difference being when it detects a test being performed it doesn't hold in its farts anymore.

1) Do you mean the cracking of the rolling code for the remote unlocking? No, I don't think that can be fixed with a "flash"

2) I don't think that's how it works tbh. It must now run in a less efficient mode all the time to reign in the NOX emissions, afaik

George Dalton

mickdw wrote: »

The way I see it, either the update has no effect making this a total fudge and a disgrace from vw or
It does have an effect and it makes the car less powerful or less fuel efficient. VW knew this when building the cars. To suggest that a bit of software can now make everything ok and have no unwanted effects is crazy.
I wouldnt bother going in for the update.

Exactly.

The absolute best case scenario is that after the update power and fuel economy are unaffected. So there is no possible benefit to getting it done and plenty of probable disadvantages.

So why anyone would bother getting it done at all is beyond me. It makes no sense whatsoever.

darragh o meara

I had my passat (2008 2.0 TDI PD170 )in a main dealers recently for a new key and they did a software update while it was there, not sure what it was for only that it was outstanding for the car. Afterwards it certainly wasn't as quick as it was going in, however I havent noticed a drop in mpg or anything else for that matter.

I'm heading back to them this evening for key no 2 so will find out if it was the emissions recall they did.

Special Circumstances

George Dalton wrote: »

So why anyone would bother getting it done at all is beyond me. It makes no sense whatsoever.

You'd do it if Winterkorn was firing the benjamins at you though!

3rdDegree

George Dalton wrote: »

Exactly.

The absolute best case scenario is that after the update power and fuel economy are unaffected. So there is no possible benefit to getting it done and plenty of probable disadvantages.

So why anyone would bother getting it done at all is beyond me. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Will it have any affect on future NCT's?

George Dalton

Of course not. Why would it?

coastwatch

I had the software update done on a 2011 skoda yeti 2.0tdi last week. It was in a main dealer for a service and I got a call during the day to say it was due the update, but they had to ask for permission first. They confirmed there would be no performance / fuel economy impact so I said go ahead.

Haven't noticed any change in performance and I wouldn't expect it if the update is just disabling the software that only kicked in during certain testing. Apparently some people are declining the update in the hope of a european vw payout similar to the US. Dont think it will ever happen.

3rdDegree

George Dalton wrote: »

Of course not. Why would it?

The car cheats on emissions and now they know. Why wouldn't it?

Truckermal

I got it done on a A4 and no difference in power or MPG.

Atlantic Dawn

3rdDegree wrote: »

The car cheats on emissions and now they know. Why wouldn't it?

NCT doesn't test emissions contents on any diesel cars, only petrol.

Special Circumstances

coastwatch wrote: »

Haven't noticed any change in performance and I wouldn't expect it if the update is just disabling the software that only kicked in during certain testing.

lol. Vw left themselves open to this debacle for no gain????yeah right

9935452

darragh o meara wrote: »

I had my passat (2008 2.0 TDI PD170 )in a main dealers recently for a new key and they did a software update while it was there, not sure what it was for only that it was outstanding for the car. Afterwards it certainly wasn't as quick as it was going in, however I havent noticed a drop in mpg or anything else for that matter.

I'm heading back to them this evening for key no 2 so will find out if it was the emissions recall they did.

Was the carr remapped by any chance?

White Ninja

biko wrote: »

It's your choice but not doing so could affect warranty and resale value.

Unless of course it turns out that it does affect power, or fuel consumption, then I would imagine not having it done would help the resale value. I won't be bringing mine in, what they're saying makes no sense at all.
If somebody buys the car from me and wants it done, VW will probably oblige anyway.

darragh o meara

9935452 wrote: »

Was the carr remapped by any chance?

No. Not remapped. I've since found out that the car didn't have the emissions update yet. Could well be mind games

Stallingrad

I don't believe this 'fix' has no effect on performance of fuel consumption with out effecting emissions. If they can do this why did they cheat in the first place? Something has to give.

Special Circumstances

Stallingrad wrote: »

I don't believe this 'fix' has no effect on performance of fuel consumption with out effecting emissions. If they can do this why did they cheat in the first place? Something has to give.

Indeed, if their emissions control tech can reduce nox to 5% of the output with no emissions control tech in place, and with no impact on fuel consumption or power and driveability.... wouldn't they leave it on all the time?

Wouldn't they be jumping around the place with pride at this amazing feat of engineering, rather than turning it off after 22 minutes, or outside very specific temperature values corresponding to specified test conditions? Wouldn't they be telling everyone about how good their emissions tech is for air quality ALL the time, and not just enabling it for very very specific scenarios?

zilog_jones

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

NCT doesn't test emissions contents on any diesel cars, only petrol.

The NCT tests for smoke on diesels, although it's not clear specifically what type of particulates. It's not CO2 or NOx but they are still emissions.

Truckermal wrote: »

I got it done on a A4 and no difference in power or MPG.

Have you been measuring fuel consumption manually before and after? Of course the software updates could easily make "adjustments" to the trip computer to give the impression there is no difference. And would you really be able to tell by feel if it lost, say 10-20 bhp?

SeamusHollahan

Hi folks, got a letter last week from volkswagen last week informing me that they need to implement a "technical measure" on my car which involves a software update to the engine. Of course nowhere on the letter do they actually mention that it relates to the emissions scandal! I'm just worried about putting the car in for this update as it might affect fuel consumption etc. They do specify that it it shouldn't affect the fuel consumption or performance but don't believe them! Has anyone had this implemented on their car and if so can you let me know how it went? Would appreciate if anyone could advise if i should go ahead with this update.

http://campaigncheck.ie/customer-faq/

Thanks
S.

George Dalton

What year is your car?

SeamusHollahan

Its 2012 Golf 1.6 TDI

Kevin!

SeamusHollahan wrote: »

Hi folks, got a letter last week from volkswagen last week informing me that they need to implement a "technical measure" on my car which involves a software update to the engine. Of course nowhere on the letter do they actually mention that it relates to the emissions scandal! I'm just worried about putting the car in for this update as it might affect fuel consumption etc. They do specify that it it shouldn't affect the fuel consumption or performance but don't believe them! Has anyone had this implemented on their car and if so can you let me know how it went? Would appreciate if anyone could advise if i should go ahead with this update.

http://campaigncheck.ie/customer-faq/

Thanks
S.

It's beyond me how they can implement a fix that will not sacrifice any of the performance gains acquired from the emissions scandal in return for reducing the emissions levels. Surely they would have just created this software in the first instance if it was possible?

George Dalton

I don't see one possible reason why you should get the update done. Why take the risk? There is no upside whatsoever.

SeamusHollahan

Hey George, that's my gut reaction also. In addition, they are compensating customers in the US to the tune of $7.5K for the inconvenience of the update as it will affect fuel consumption. How can they say it WILL affection fuel consumption for US cars but not European ones??? Anyway mind definitely made up, there are no positive gains to getting this update done!!

Teddington Cuddlesworth

Would it ever be likely that revenue would fix the figures for the affected VW's and start charging the relevant tax based on the actual emissions, rather than the assumed emissions?

Atlantic Dawn

SeamusHollahan wrote: »

Hey George, that's my gut reaction also. In addition, they are compensating customers in the US to the tune of $7.5K for the inconvenience of the update as it will affect fuel consumption. How can they say it WILL affection fuel consumption for US cars but not European ones??? Anyway mind definitely made up, there are no positive gains to getting this update done!!

An Audi Q5 buyer in Spain did get a ruling of €5000 compensation in their favour, I think that's the only EU case of it, VAG are appealing the ruling though...

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-spain-idUSKCN12Q24U

Teddington Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Would it ever be likely that revenue would fix the figures for the affected VW's and start charging the relevant tax based on the actual emissions, rather than the assumed emissions?

The software fix does not get measured or certified to the new emissions figures by VW nor is it tested by any EU or Irish body so there's no new official figures to confirm or deny the emissions have decreased or increased from what was originally declared by VW that Revenue could use.

Armchair Andy

Got the same letter last week am hesitant to get the upgrade done. Biggest concern is the potential rise in fuel consumption. 2010 A6.

colm_mcm

George Dalton wrote: »

I don't see one possible reason why you should get the update done. Why take the risk? There is no upside whatsoever.

This.


The only argument you could make is an environmental one. But to be fair, driving a car isn't very environmentally friendly either way.

biko

Volkswagen has been tasked with finding fixes in all the affected cars which don’t cause any reduction in fuel consumption.
As a result, when your car has had the fix applied, you shouldn’t notice any change in fuel economy, and VW has even said the fix may well make its cars even more efficient than they were before.

src

rex-x

biko wrote: »

Volkswagen has been tasked with finding fixes in all the affected cars which don’t cause any reduction in fuel consumption.
As a result, when your car has had the fix applied, you shouldn’t notice any change in fuel economy, and VW has even said the fix may well make its cars even more efficient than they were before.

src

The problem is something has to give! You cant keep the same hardware and reduce emissions while maintaining power and effeciency only through software, egr and injection tweaks are really all they have at their disposal to help with this issue and whatever they are doing wont be good news....

heroics

biko wrote: »

Volkswagen has been tasked with finding fixes in all the affected cars which don’t cause any reduction in fuel consumption.
As a result, when your car has had the fix applied, you shouldn’t notice any change in fuel economy, and VW has even said the fix may well make its cars even more efficient than they were before.

src

Does it effect the way it drives though responsiveness etc? Mate in work had the fix done at the recent service without asking for it. He said the car feels different. (2011 A5). He was looking to the it removed but was told they wouldn't do it.

heroics

http://www.independent.ie/business/world/volkswagen-and-robert-bosch-agree-to-pay-155bn-to-settle-us-diesel-claims-35415198.html

colm_mcm

biko wrote: »

Volkswagen has been tasked with finding fixes in all the affected cars which don’t cause any reduction in fuel consumption.
As a result, when your car has had the fix applied, you shouldn’t notice any change in fuel economy, and VW has even said the fix may well make its cars even more efficient than they were before.

src

You don't actually believe that though do you?

lau1247

I drop my car in for service at the start of january due to timing belt change. I think they did the update without asking me (Cannot verify yet, I have yet to check with them).

Felt grand for the first 2 days.. after that it didn't feel as good and sluggish when it comes to acceleration.. MPG definitely dropped as I used to be able to get close to 400 miles on half tank. Weather isn't even that cold this year. Now I'm getting only about 350 miles on half tank. my driving habit didn't change..

but i do have a letter at home received a while ago stating that I'm due the recall and that there is no effect on the car. It will be very useful if there is ever a lawsuit on them.

The only thing I cannot tie it down is whether it is because of timing belt change etc, but if anything it should be more efficient. I need to collect more MPG data before getting back to them about it.

To sum it up, I still have reservation about it. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if there is no performance related issue after the fix, wouldn't VW have sold the car as is without the bad code in the first place.


Edit: My car is an Audi A4 B8 2.0 TDI (2009)

9935452

lau1247 wrote: »

I drop my car in for service at the start of january due to timing belt change. I think they did the update without asking me (Cannot verify yet, I have yet to check with them).

Felt grand for the first 2 days.. after that it didn't feel as good and sluggish when it comes to acceleration.. MPG definitely dropped as I used to be able to get close to 400 miles on half tank. Weather isn't even that cold this year. Now I'm getting only about 350 miles on half tank. my driving habit didn't change..

but i do have a letter at home received a while ago stating that I'm due the recall and that there is no effect on the car. It will be very useful if there is ever a lawsuit on them.

The only thing I cannot tie it down is whether it is because of timing belt change etc, but if anything it should be more efficient. I need to collect more MPG data before getting back to them about it.

To sum it up, I still have reservation about it. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if there is no performance related issue after the fix, wouldn't VW have sold the car as is without the bad code in the first place.


Edit: My car is an Audi A4 B8 2.0 TDI (2009)

Out of curiosity how do you measure the half tank.
400 miles to half tank 800 to full tank?
I have the same car 09 A4 120bhp.
When i fill the car with diesel it indicates 670miles can be got from the tank.
The car is doing 550/600 miles to the tank.
Chipped the car does 600/650 to the tank.

A friend has a 08 A4 B8 143bhp which is doing 600 to the tank.

That said i believe something has to give with their fix , eithre power or economy

selfbuilder1

My advice is not to get it done. I got my 1.6TDI Golf done in January and my fuel consumption has gone up since. I was getting an average 4.7l/100km for the last 2 years and since the update I'm getting around 5.4l to 5.2l/100km.

lau1247

9935452 wrote: »

Out of curiosity how do you measure the half tank.
400 miles to half tank 800 to full tank?
I have the same car 09 A4 120bhp.
When i fill the car with diesel it indicates 670miles can be got from the tank.
The car is doing 550/600 miles to the tank.
Chipped the car does 600/650 to the tank.

A friend has a 08 A4 B8 143bhp which is doing 600 to the tank.

That said i believe something has to give with their fix , eithre power or economy

Sorry I should have been clearer, the 400 at half tank is just through the tank gauge (Visual). They were consistent over the last two years. Only for the past few weeks since the service that I start to get around 350 miles at half tank so it is very much noticeable.

Normally (before the last service) from full tank to the first quarter I will get around 220-230 miles, come half tank I get around 400 miles from the odometer. While consumption normally drop again to about 580 miles at three quarter.

Other than visual, I also track through Road Trip App and fill every time to full so it is not just a guesswork.

You say your car indicate 670 miles range when you fill to full. On mine, it normally does the same showing 670/675 miles range when filled to full but I get about 100 miles out of it and it will still say 670/675 miles before it start dropping on par with the actual miles traveled (i.e. after 100 miles or so, the trip computer drop rate is matching closely with distance traveled)

Looking at the Road Trip App records, I can consistently get close to 600 miles at around 54 liters (Out of 60 liters tank). Just for comparison/reference info, I do mixture of driving. 7 days to and from work/shop, on average each trip don't last more than 10 mins. On Friday/Sunday it is long distance driving primarily ranging between 100 to 120 km/hr at 150 miles each way. I'd reckon I'd get more if I have the patience to drive at 80 to 100 km/hr most of the way. Obviously if I'm doing Dublin city driving, the MPG will drop quite a bit again but that was expected anyway.

Seems like your car is performing quite badly relative to mine (120 bhp, non modified). What is your driving style like? Do you do a lot of short trips?

Not sure if it make any difference but I always filled at Texaco religiously unless I don't have a choice.

9935452

lau1247 wrote: »

Seems like your car is performing quite badly relative to mine (120 bhp, non modified). What is your driving style like? Do you do a lot of short trips?

Not sure if it make any difference but I always filled at Texaco religiously unless I don't have a choice.

I wouldnt say the car is performing badly compared to yours .
It never does less than 600 miles to the tank which seems to be what you are getting too.
Thanks 50/50 short and long trips

Btw the tank on the A4 is actually 65 litres