A4 category

willyS81

Any body any idea what the average speed would be over a 60/70km A4 category race
thanks

Inquitus

willyS81 wrote: »

Any body any idea what the average speed would be over a 60/70km A4 category race
thanks

36-40kph depending on profile of the circuit. Just worth nothing that riding in a big group is way easier than riding on your own so you would not need to be able to ride 80km at 36kph on your own to make it round. A rough rule of thumb used is if you can average 30kph on a varied Irish ride on your own for an hour, then you would likely get round an average A4 race.

Beasty

The main issue is not allowing yourself to get dropped. Riding within the group you should get around OK, but if you hang off the back or struggle on a hill losing touch with the group getting back on can be a big issue

Beasty

Just to add, the best starting point, if there's one available, is a club league. A bit shorter, a bit slower and groups tend to be smaller. A much better environment to learn the ropes than starting in the deep end with Open racing.

JK.BMC

This question gets asked all the time, especially this time of year - the responses above more or less cover the most important points. And they are all quite important.

I would put it another way: can you sprint in a straight line for 10 seconds, especially after a junction? Or can you go around a bend/junction smoothly and hold a wheel in doing so? Can you take your bottle out and have a drink and replace it while going at 40kmh? Can you sit in a group of riders riding in close proximity and feel smooth and calm? Can you manage to move out and overtake smoothly or sit tight on the wheels ahead and know the difference between the two?

I know the OP didn't ask about any of this but to be honest, if you can't do the above, then the "average speed" of a race doesn't matter a damn. There are lots of strava champions and wattage monsters who lack bunch skills. I would encourage you to focus on skills, skills, skills and let the "averages" take care of themselves. Club leagues are a good starting point without doubt.

ChickenBalls

JK.BMC wrote: »

This question gets asked all the time, especially this time of year - the responses above more or less cover the most important points. And they are all quite important.

I would put it another way: can you sprint in a straight line for 10 seconds, especially after a junction? Or can you go around a bend/junction smoothly and hold a wheel in doing so? Can you take your bottle out and have a drink and replace it while going at 40kmh? Can you sit in a group of riders riding in close proximity and feel smooth and calm? Can you manage to move out and overtake smoothly or sit tight on the wheels ahead and know the difference between the two?

I know the OP didn't ask about any of this but to be honest, if you can't do the above, then the "average speed" of a race doesn't matter a damn. There are lots of strava champions and wattage monsters who lack bunch skills. I would encourage you to focus on skills, skills, skills and let the "averages" take care of themselves. Club leagues are a good starting point without doubt.

Agreed! I did my very first A4 race last september in Gorey - nice roundabout to roundabout route but the skills is a big thing! For instance taking my bottle out to take a drink or harder again a gel was a challenge I actually wobbled a few times. I remember one of the club mates just behind me asked how I was doing and when I turned my head to look round I wobbled big time! Two guys behind me let out a shout "Less of the chit chat!" I was totally inexperienced tbh but got thru it. I had 10 club races behind me and from experience the club races are much more full throttle than an open race - I was worried before the race that I wouldn't keep up with the group at 35kph+ as i'd never gone that fast before but I managed to keep in there at 39/40kph without much effort - maybe 60%-70% effort at most - this was over 80km - check out my strava here - https://www.strava.com/activities/690304511/overview - the last 6km wasn't great cause i got caught up in a crash so lost touch with the group and by then it was game over but I loved it.

If you want to know my average in general it's at most 27kph on my own including a few wicklow mountains. Weekend club spins would be around 29-30kph at most.

koutoubia

ChickenBalls wrote: »

Two guys behind me let out a shout "Less of the chit chat!"

Tell them to FOOK OFF.
There is always a 'mouth' in the bunch who thinks they are 'Patrons'!
They forget they are in A4 and were behind you.
If they were worried about getting taken down they should have ridden away from the bunch or at least been on the front instead of issueing orders from the group

RobFowl

koutoubia wrote: »

Tell them to FOOK OFF.
There is always a 'mouth' in the bunch who thinks they are 'Patrons'!
They forget they are in A4 and were behind you.
If they were worried about getting taken down they should have ridden away from the bunch or at least been on the front instead of issueing orders from the group

For once agree completely with the sprinter...

The bollixes who mouth off are always behind you, the same ones who shout about going to the front and riding but who never do......

RobFowl

JK.BMC wrote: »

can you sprint in a straight line for 10 seconds, especially after a junction? Or can you go around a bend/junction smoothly and hold a wheel in doing so? Can you take your bottle out and have a drink and replace it while going at 40kmh? Can you sit in a group of riders riding in close proximity and feel smooth and calm? Can you manage to move out and overtake smoothly or sit tight on the wheels ahead and know the difference between the two?
.

And if you can my son, then you are going to feel very lonely in A4 cos no one else there can..........

Beasty

RobFowl wrote: »

And if you can my son, then you are going to feel very lonely in A4 cos no one else there can..........

Just head down to Sundrive for some proper training (well not the bottle bit I guess!)

koutoubia

Beasty wrote: »

Just head down to Sundrive for some proper training (well not the bottle bit I guess!)

Riding around in circles with no mud around will only confuse him!

InTheAttic

Beasty wrote: »

Just to add, the best starting point, if there's one available, is a club league. A bit shorter, a bit slower and groups tend to be smaller. A much better environment to learn the ropes than starting in the deep end with Open racing.

A bit slower?... Not from what I've seen.

InTheAttic

koutoubia wrote: »

Tell them to FOOK OFF.
There is always a 'mouth' in the bunch who thinks they are 'Patrons'!
They forget they are in A4 and were behind you.
If they were worried about getting taken down they should have ridden away from the bunch or at least been on the front instead of issueing orders from the group

Well done koutoubia. Blame the riders behind for reprimanding the fella who's taking his eyes off the road at 40km/hr to turn around and talk to his clubmate. The same fella who mentioned he got caught up in a crash in the same race. Welcome to A4.

Harrybelafonte

koutoubia wrote: »

Riding around in circles with no mud around will only confuse him!

Ovals. Not circles. Ovals.

Harrybelafonte

Beasty wrote: »

Just head down to Sundrive for some proper training (well not the bottle bit I guess!)

100 laps of a 460m track in burning July sun with no bottle. Dreamy.

Beasty

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

100 laps of a 460m track in burning July sun with no bottle. Dreamy.

Don't know if you recall but before they put the fence up I took you down there once. Around the same time I did a solo session which I think went on for over 100 laps. Not quite burning July though...

(I've also done hour long sessions on indoor tracks without stopping for refreshments)

Harrybelafonte

Beasty wrote: »

Don't know if you recall but before they put the fence up I took you down there once. Around the same time I did a solo session which I think went on for over 100 laps. Not quite burning July though...

(I've also done hour long sessions on indoor tracks without stopping for refreshments)

I do indeed remember. I believe I got four laps in.

An hour indoors is more about my head spining than heat exhaustian tbh.

Back on topic. Just do an A4 race and don't be a di@@ while you're doing it. You'll be fine

CramCycle

I cannot emphasise enough the importance of going off the front like a lunatic every now and again, if you do nothing else in an A4 race, you should try this upto 4 times in a race. If you stay away great, if you get caught, rest up, get your breath, get over confident again, and when the chance presents itself. Sling shot around the bunch and flu

NamelessPhil

CramCycle wrote: »

I cannot emphasise enough the importance of going off the front like a lunatic every now and again, if you do nothing else in an A4 race, you should try this upto 4 times in a race. If you stay away great, if you get caught, rest up, get your breath, get over confident again, and when the chance presents itself. Sling shot around the bunch and flu

If your teammate is up the road, don't be the eejit who tries to bridge across and pulls the bunch back up behind them. Let some other club do the chasing and tuck in behind them.

CramCycle

NamelessPhil wrote: »

If your teammate is up the road, don't be the eejit who tries to bridge across and pulls the bunch back up behind them. Let some other club do the chasing and tuck in behind them.

I see we are back to criticising my tactics from the club league :pac:

daragh_

CramCycle wrote: »

I see we are back to criticising my tactics from the club league :pac:

In fairness you aren't the only one.

RobFowl

NamelessPhil wrote: »

If your teammate is up the road, don't be the eejit who tries to bridge across and pulls the bunch back up behind them. Let some other club do the chasing and tuck in behind them.

In club leagues and A4 races those who obey club tactics should be shot

Go for it, ride them attack til the cows come home and have fun

terrydel

What the climbing ability like in these? Any way to gauge where you would be in that regard?

Inquitus

terrydel wrote: »

What the climbing ability like in these? Any way to gauge where you would be in that regard?

It depends on the parcours, some have tough enough climbs like Snowtown for the Stamullen GP and the Deenside Cup, which can really sort the men from the boys, headwind or tailwind will make a big difference too. I'd say to do well on the hillier ones you'd want to be putting out @4W/Kg FTP to be at the sharp end of the race.

Most don't have any climbs of note so even if you drift back on the climb you'll still be in touch at the top.

Looking at the Deenside Cup in A4 I was putting out 360W for 10-12 minutes weighing about 70kg at the front end of A4 back in 2014 as an example.

Harrybelafonte

I'll tell you this as a pretty heavy A4 rider. The hills aren't that bad alone, it's the repeated element that kills. I wouldn't even bother doing Stamillen. There's no point. But most Leinster races are pretty flat.

koutoubia

InTheAttic wrote:

Well done koutoubia. Blame the riders behind for reprimanding the fella who's taking his eyes off the road at 40km/hr to turn around and talk to his clubmate. The same fella who mentioned he got caught up in a crash in the same race. Welcome to A4.

The guy is learning to ride in a bunch. Fair play to be able to take a drink and have a quick chat with a teammate that will eventually boost his confidence. But then you have some mouth giving him grief.
Some lads find it all too easy to forget that they had to learn somewhere.
He was caught up in a crash. That's racing for ya. From A4 to A1 to Vets to Pro.

harringtonp

Beasty wrote: »

Just to add, the best starting point, if there's one available, is a club league. A bit shorter, a bit slower and groups tend to be smaller. A much better environment to learn the ropes than starting in the deep end with Open racing.

Hour for our, our club racing is harder than most races. Its still the way to start though.

harringtonp

Inquitus wrote: »

Looking at the Deenside Cup in A4 I was putting out 360W for 10-12 minutes weighing about 70kg at the front end of A4 back in 2014 as an example.

I don't get it, in the Deenside Cup 2015 A3, Strava shows that I got up the climb (segment Full Glenmagoo Climb) first time round in the bunch at 300W weighing 78kg ...

Inquitus

harringtonp wrote: »

I don't get it, in the Deenside Cup 2015 A3, Strava shows that I got up the climb (segment Full Glenmagoo Climb) first time round in the bunch at 300W weighing 78kg ...

Edit actually looking at it again I had crashed the bike with the PM meter on it and was riding without that day, I didn't notice they were estimated numbers not real ones.

InTheAttic

koutoubia wrote: »

The guy is learning to ride in a bunch. Fair play to be able to take a drink and have a quick chat with a teammate that will eventually boost his confidence. But then you have some mouth giving him grief.
Some lads find it all too easy to forget that they had to learn somewhere.
He was caught up in a crash. That's racing for ya. From A4 to A1 to Vets to Pro.

Wrong again. This isn't about learning the basics of racing. In this instance it's about learning the etiquette of cycling in a group. You do that on a club beginner's group spin. The mistakes made in this instance are waaaay beyond mistakes made by entry level racers. How people can just buy a racing license and rock up at an open road race, with poor bike handling skills and not knowing group etiquette beggars belief! I dont want to end up in hospital because of some numpty who doesn't know how to ride a bicycle in a group, irrespective of a race or not.

RobFowl

InTheAttic wrote: »

I dont want to end up in hospital because of some numpty who doesn't know how to ride a bicycle in a group, irrespective of a race or not.

I've ended up in hospital because of numpty's who knew how to ride their bike but caused a racing accident.

It's a race and sh*t happens, if you want risk free sport take up tiddly winks wearing full body armour

dahat

It's wrecking the bike that I'm worried about tbh...

RobFowl

InTheAttic wrote: »

Sorry, but if an accident is caused by something as careless as taking your eyes off the road in front of you to look behind at a team mate, the person who causes the crash better hope that I'm not able to jump to my feet after and knock them out!

People do look behind in races you know !

InTheAttic

RobFowl wrote: »

People do look behind in races you know !

To have a chat? If they do it and I'm on their wheel, they're gonna know not to do it again.

07Lapierre

InTheAttic wrote: »

To have a chat? If they do it and I'm on their wheel, they're gonna know not to do it again.

I think your in the wrong sport! Bike racing is risky.

InTheAttic

07Lapierre wrote: »

I think your in the wrong sport! Bike racing is risky.

Nah, not in the wrong sport. Yep, I agree it is risky.

RobFowl

I've see far to many gob****es crash then go shouting ans swinging for some poor eejet who they perceived to be at fault. Many times I've seen it happen from close proximity and it was simply an accident. Never stops some gobbing off though.
Time to chill I think.

koutoubia

@ InTheAttic I think your missing the point of the whole A4 category.
Thats the last I am gonna say on it.

MileyReilly

AnneFrankInTheAttic sounds like a dangerous man. Knocking out and everything!

InTheAttic

koutoubia wrote: »

@ InTheAttic I think your missing the point of the whole A4 category.

Please enlighten me.

Furthermore, I'm not being intemperate.

People seem to be missing my point entirely, which is based on a post way back on the first thread.

My point in its most succinct form is this:

You should not turn up at an open road race without basic group riding skills.

koutoubia

InTheAttic wrote: »

Please enlighten me.

Furthermore, I'm not being intemperate.

People seem to be missing my point entirely, which is based on a post way back on the first thread.

My point in its most succinct form is this:

You should not turn up at an open road race without basic group riding skills.

OK.
Without getting into an argument.......
Where do you suggest riders who are new to the sport get experience of riding at 40kph in a group of 50 or more?

Inquitus

koutoubia wrote: »

OK.
Without getting into an argument.......
Where do you suggest riders who are new to the sport get experience of riding at 40kph in a group of 50 or more?

I have always found it's relatively easy to spot riders who aren't familiar with riding at speed in a group and just to avoid them in the bunch, no need to shout abuse at them or give out to them in the race, just simply steer clear.

koutoubia

Yep.
Shouting at them isnt exactly gonna make them relaxed!



I did say it was the last I was gonna say ....Internet argument 'FAIL'

If I invoke Godwins law will it help?


All A4 riders/newbies/shouters are like Hitler!

InTheAttic

koutoubia wrote: »

OK.
Without getting into an argument.......
Where do you suggest riders who are new to the sport get experience of riding at 40kph in a group of 50 or more?

That's fair enough.

But it's not the point I was making

JK.BMC

InTheAttic wrote: »

That's fair enough.

But it's not the point I was making

I will never forget a time in Wexford years ago; riding A4 and in a large bunch. One chap with a plain jersey and dark shades was all over the shop- now I mean really dangerous. He spent most of the race (75km maybe) in the first dozen or so in the bunch but every time he moved he acted like a bowling ball, caused about 3 crashes and brushed shoulders with numerous riders myself included. Fairly shocking carry on.
I think about 20 different fellas all joined an informal rota to tell this quarehawk to cop da feck on 'or else' etc. Made no difference- some people are utterly impervious to instruction or persuasion. I was wondering was he actually deaf- in the end, I think he was 2nd or 3rd over the line and gladly took his envelope, in spite of numerous mumbling and complaints afterwards.

You see, roaring at riders is actually a good thing in some cases. It can be useful in dealing with the occasional numptys. But overall, it's better to say nothing, keep calm, get away from the numptys wheel and pray for a safe passage. Or do what I did- upgrade to A3 if possible. Then you can moan instead about super juniors, super vets, big fields and all that jazz!

Isn't racing great in fairness!

InTheAttic

JK.BMC wrote: »

I will never forget a time in Wexford years ago; riding A4 and in a large bunch. One chap with a plain jersey and dark shades was all over the shop- now I mean really dangerous. He spent most of the race (75km maybe) in the first dozen or so in the bunch but every time he moved he acted like a bowling ball, caused about 3 crashes and brushed shoulders with numerous riders myself included. Fairly shocking carry on.
I think about 20 different fellas all joined an informal rota to tell this quarehawk to cop da feck on 'or else' etc. Made no difference- some people are utterly impervious to instruction or persuasion. I was wondering was he actually deaf- in the end, I think he was 2nd or 3rd over the line and gladly took his envelope, in spite of numerous mumbling and complaints afterwards.

You see, roaring at riders is actually a good thing in some cases. It can be useful in dealing with the occasional numptys. But overall, it's better to say nothing, keep calm, get away from the numptys wheel and pray for a safe passage. Or do what I did- upgrade to A3 if possible. Then you can moan instead about super juniors, super vets, big fields and all that jazz!

Isn't racing great in fairness!

Nothing beats racing anecdotes! This is a gem

CramCycle

If enough of you were of this opinion, surely he could have been reported to the comms?

JK.BMC

CramCycle wrote: »

If enough of you were of this opinion, surely he could have been reported to the comms?

He was
Nothing happened
Are riders ever disqualified?
I can't remember any

Raymzor

JK.BMC wrote: »

He was
Nothing happened
Are riders ever disqualified?
I can't remember any

At an Underage race last year in Leinster the winner took both hands of handlebars-don't know if he was disqualified but he certainly didn't get first prize.

The first A4 race of last season has a few learning nuggets. There were 5 crashes during the race, 3 of which happened in the last 10km. The first two happened due to water bottle fidgeting and a guy looking behind-concentration is key. The third was a rider making a rash move in the bunch when there was not enough space to do so-judgement is important. The fourth was the last one I saw as I ended up on the ground! A rider makes a big burst, runs out of steam, then stops pedaling, guy behind him hits him and I in turn made contact as I tried to brake hard, ran out of road, guy in front of me was sideways so I had nowhere to go so ended up in a slow speed fall-if you get tired your concentration decreases significantly but don't stop pedaling-also if you get a puncture or a mechanical put your hand up! The last crash was close to the finish line-I saw lots of folks over the year making a decision not to contest the sprint for self preservation purposes! After the third race of the season things settled down as riders were more comfortable in riding in the bunch.

daragh_

It wouldn't be a proper Boards February without an A4 horror story thread.

I've been at a few A4 races where the comm was very forceful about lads not looking behind them, not contesting the sprint if they weren't in the first ten and copping on about riding up the bunch on the wrong side of the road. I was almost thrown off a race for doing that myself - it was a lesson learned the easy way rather than the hard way :-)

I echo what's been said above - do your best to start off in a club league. If you can't then maybe avoid the early season races where there are huge bunches over flattish courses. Try and find races where there are going to be moto marshalls as they tend to be better behaved. Be aware of what's happening around you, stay calm and don't move around the bunch without letting those around you know. A bit of communication goes a long way.

And despite the horror stories remember that it's meant to be fun.

Miklos

So, with all the above in mind, what early season meat-grinders are people looking at this year?