General Ongoing Doctor Discussion

flazio

Martin Tyler AgueroooOO wrote: »

Well that was ****e

Care to expand?

B.A._Baracus

Thought it was in the middle myself. Not utter garbage but not spectacular too. Finding the stories a bit convoluted.

TheValeyard

Would that be classed as a lot of recon in that?

Middle of the road episode. Some very good dialogue.

The Master was fairly decent with a hint of Heath Ledgers Joker.

May have had bit much going on in that episode.

BUT

Holy fcuk why did they do a whole origin story, part of the love and mystery of Doctor Who is the 'Who' part. We dont need an origin story or the Time Lords, etc. And yes I'm well aware of the mystery of where the timeless child came from, etc.

So Brendan was the Doctor or pre doctor taking some timelord academy trials?

I did like the mix of cyberman and timelord.

But once again. Really. An. Origin. Story. Sigh. And I'm aware of the 1976 episode to do with Mobious and other incarnations of the Doctor.

campo

campo wrote: »

I liked it and this comes from someone who hated the last season, I also liked the closing line of everything you think you knew is a lie, we could be in for a soft reboot.

Looks like I got this one right, I think it kind of needed it

fritzelly

Not sure how I feel about that to be honest - need time to digest

TheValeyard

Am I the only one who thought the original name for the Gallifreyans as Shobogans to be a little bit crap?

campo

I may have missed it but what did the master say about the 12 regeneration limit ?

fritzelly

campo wrote: »

I may have missed it but what did the master say about the 12 regeneration limit ?

Nothing

CastorTroy

Think he said when The Doctor or whatever he was called back then, agreed to let the Time Lords use his regenerative abilities, it was under the condition of a 12 regeneration limit.

So Jodie Whittaker is.... the 433rd Doctor.

And they wipe his mind and want to remove all memories, yet still let him have the name of The Doctor.

Did it seem like there was more to Ko than we thought? He sent the Cyberium through time and he seemed to know more about the Doctor than he let on. Another Time Lord?

fritzelly

CastorTroy wrote: »

Think he said when The Doctor or whatever he was called back then, agreed to let the Time Lords use his regenerative abilities, it was under the condition of a 12 regeneration limit.

Yeah you're right

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51a1hoSn4uY

campo

fritzelly wrote: »

I don't remember any of that being said in the episode!

Anyway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51a1hoSn4uY

There was a flash back to this scene when the doctor was trying to break out of the matrix (or whatever it was called)

campo

CastorTroy wrote: »

Think he said when The Doctor or whatever he was called back then, agreed to let the Time Lords use his regenerative abilities, it was under the condition of a 12 regeneration limit.

So Jodie Whittaker is.... the 433rd Doctor.

And they wipe his mind and want to remove all memories, yet still let him have the name of The Doctor.

Did it seem like there was more to Ko than we thought? He sent the Cyberium through time and he seemed to know more about the Doctor than he let on. Another Time Lord?

Thanks for that, I just presumed Ko was the Dr and his tent was the tardis.

fritzelly

So in the very near future Cybermen still destroy the Earth - that storyline was never resolved or did I miss something?

TheValeyard

fritzelly wrote: »

So in the very near future Cybermen still destroy the Earth - that storyline was never resolved or did I miss something?

Wibbly wobbly, timey wimey

FunLover18

Well, it delivered on what was promised in Ascension; a massive exposition dump. I think what's most frustrating is that The Timeless Child was first mentioned in Series 11 which means Chibnal knew what he was going to do and had two series to come up with a good way of doing and laying some decent groundwork this is what he came up with. The Master learns it all off screen and then just tells The Doctor.

Someone commented that it was convoluted; I actually don't think it was, it was just badly written. Moffatt's arcs were convoluted to the point that I still can't tell you what was going on with The Silence but I know it was explained. This just seems convoluted because there was so much unexplained; like the Cyberwar and the future of humanity, where Jack fits in, what and why was The Lone Cyberman. And that's without even mentioning the badly written conveniences like the shocking Cyber security on the ship which allowed them to plant the bombs, the TARDISes that were undamaged in the destruction of Galifrey (it wasn't even explained how they got off the exploding Cybership, I assumed the TARDIS was on the Cybership). The companions really didn't have anything to do, Ascension almost had too much going on whereas this didn't have enough going on to the point I was bored and the massive revelation (and it does actually have some huge implications when you think about it) didn't really have an impact.

Anyway; some general nitpicks and questions I have after that;
-The Doctor is from another dimension? Shouldn't she scan as such? I vaguely remember in previous episode involving other dimensions that there was a different sonic signature or something? No doubt this will never be addressed anyway.
-Is the boundary at which The Timeless Child was found the same boundary that led to Galifrey? Did The Master rig it to lead to Galifrey because presumably it hasn't always.
-The Doctor will presumably want to go searching for her real home now, it makes sense and might have some fuel for a good story.
-So The Doctor has always had visions of Ireland? You'd think they might have layered that into the series rather than just throwing it into the penultimate episode. Also weird that she's never visited if she has always had visions.
-Have Timelords always been able to find each other mentally?
-Someone pointed out on Twitter that Chibnall is slowly dismantling the mystery around The Doctor; I really disliked Moffatt's era for threatening to do the name with the tease of the name reveal; this is essentially a way bigger reveal but I think it goes to show how poor the writing is that I didn't really notice or feel the wider implications. There is so much story potential there but maybe it is best left alone.

CastorTroy

The whole Ireland thing threw me. Like it can't be a past version of her since those around him would've aged as well. When he fell off the cliff, he should've regenerated. So it must've been in The Doctor's head somehow.

Well it should keep a lot of people happy now that were complaining the Doctor is always a white guy. Think they hit most demographics now.

FunLover18

CastorTroy wrote: »

The whole Ireland thing threw me. Like it can't be a past version of her since those around him would've aged as well. When he fell off the cliff, he should've regenerated. So it must've been in The Doctor's head somehow.

My understanding is that it was some sort of training simulation ... In the matrix maybe.

fritzelly

FunLover18 wrote: »

My understanding is that it was some sort of training simulation ... In the matrix maybe.

I'm still trying to reconcile the first regeneration to Brendan recovering - is Brenda meant to be a confused memory in the Doctor - it never really happened but was the brains interpretation of the first regeneration from mangled memories

FunLover18

Andrew Ellard is a professional script editor and his notes on the show are always interesting.

https://twitter.com/ellardent/status/1234477352090034177?s=19

campo

So is Rassilon the person (tec tayo0n) who found the timeless child (the doctor) ? as going by canon Rassilon was the one who give the time lords the ability to regenerate

TheValeyard

campo wrote: »

So is Rassilon the person (tec tayo0n) who found the timeless child (the doctor) ? as going by canon Rassilon was the one who give the time lords the ability to regenerate

I was thinking it was the Sisterhood of Karn. Something with the 12th Doctor in Hell Bent when she calls him boy and orders him out of the Tardis and he obeys.

ixoy

I like this take on the Master still - unhinged sure, but with that extra undercurrent of anger. Hopefully not dead.

It was exposition heavy and it does leave unanswered questions, such as at what point they'd "reset" the Doctor? Why let him go for so many incarnations, including resetting a universe, without resetting him? Did they get bored? Did I miss something there?

One thing we can take-away: Ireland was chosen as a peaceful cover for the Doctor's actual trauma. So basically Ireland is the most idyllic place in the universe and that is now canon.

fritzelly

ixoy wrote: »

One thing we can take-away: Ireland was chosen as a peaceful cover for the Doctor's actual trauma. So basically Ireland is the most idyllic place in the universe and that is now canon.

What do you mean - the Brendan part (being found as a baby, joining the Garda/Division, falling off the cliff) was identical to the Timeless Child's life - I thought it was some kind cover story in the matrix to hide the real truth, not something the Doctor ever remembered, the child never suffered any trauma

ixoy

fritzelly wrote: »

What do you mean - the Brendan part (being found as a baby, joining the Garda/Division, falling off the cliff) was identical to the Timeless Child's life - I thought it was some kind cover story in the matrix to hide the real truth, not something the Doctor ever remembered, the child never suffered any trauma

The Doctor specifically remembers Ireland and it's implied certainly that she remembered it before her return to Gallifrey (but for whatever reason not mentioned up to this point - poor writing being the likely explanation). So dying as a guard in the line of duty is a better memory than falling off a cliff as a kid - less traumatic. I think that's the logic? I mean none of it makes much sense anyway if you apply more than a minute's thought.

fritzelly

But the Doctor never had any memory of pre Hartnell - I read it as a filter in the Matrix to hide the real story

Just some very sloppy writing with shock value to stamp his name on the lore

Even the Ruth part was pointless for a bit part in the story line - tho as the main Doctor I think I could like her, just seemed to have more prescense on screen for the little time she was on screen (maybe too much going for a woman and a black woman in one go for Whovians)

God I have hated these last two seasons and thought the last two episodes would be something amazing but left me more confused and deflated. Saying that I have warmed to the Master more than his first appearance

TheValeyard

Probably turn out that everyone in the universe is part Doctor. We're all on the same timeline or something.

FunLover18

Just saw someone ask on Twitter how The Master knows the Timeless Child grew up to be The Doctor if all the information before their current life has been redacted.

FunLover18

The Mirror reporting that

Graham and Ryan are leaving in holiday special[\Spoiler]

fritzelly

Damn those spoilers

Mollyb60

Lol spoilers didn't work at all there but I had been thinking that this season. They were pushing hard on Ryan not being happy anyway. Yaz has been stepping up as most pro-travelling in the last few episodes. And I thought they were hinting at Graham being ready to move on from Grace too.