Now Ye're Talking - to a Medieval Recreator

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

CelticRambler wrote: »

We run a five-day public event here in France every year (music and dance, no sword fights!) 5000-ish visitors per day, with not a flush- or chemical toilet on site! :cool:

That's... I'm going to go for awesome, actually. But whatever about the modern premises and campsites, the castles would be really upset by us digging latrines on site.

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

What was your favourite recreation so far that you have taken part in?

Much as I love Ffair Rhaglen, which happens every August in Wales, the honour currently goes to Cudgel War, a ten-day camping event in the Barony of Barony of Aarnimetsä (Finland), which takes place on a lakeshore, with a wood-fired sauna available for use. I spent a chunk of last year's event there working on medieval cloth-dyeing techniques on a small fire by the lake, and it was absolutely magnificent.

Gingereejit

Just as a matter of interest When/where is the event in France? And of course, what is it called?

Gloomtastic!

Went to the Viking revival in Clontarf a few years, brilliant fun for all the family.

Are there any revivalists you dread meeting up with due to their uncouth behaviour - barbarians, Picts or whatever?

cloudatlas

I tried to read Barbara Tuchman's 'A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century' and couldn't get into it. Any suggestions?

Kerrydude1981

Do you take part in any other recreations?

I know lads that do World War recreations and also do a bit of medieval stuff

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Are there any revivalists you dread meeting up with due to their uncouth behaviour - barbarians, Picts or whatever?

Every re-enactor, re-creator, or academic medievalist I've ever met has been lovely. Crazy in some very specific ways sometimes, but lovely.

There is, however, an event that takes place in the US, called Pennsic. It's probably the biggest event in the SCA, and it's been running every year for 40 years. It's nominally a war between the Kingdom of the East and the Middle Kingdom, but it's really 10,000+ people getting together to do medieval stuff for two weeks. There are a number of people who turn up to Pennsic, who aren't otherwise involved in the SCA. Some of these are folk who feel that dressing as pirates, gypsies, or whatever is fun, and it's close enough that nobody minds. There will invariably be a few people wearing faerie wings and elf ears, that kind of thing.

And then there are the Tuchux. They're not SCA, but they adhere to the rules when they come to Pennsic. Barely. They enter the battlefields as a unit, clad in the bare minimum of armour (and I mean the bare minimum; mostly wearing nothing but the armour) and fight like crazed berserkers. Their campground is essentially a Gor cosplay (novels by John Norman, not recommended for... anyone, really, IMO). I've never met them, but they're well known nutters within the SCA context.

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

cloudatlas wrote: »

I tried to read Barbara Tuchman's 'A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century' and couldn't get into it. Any suggestions?

I'm going to list a few books here, in increasing order of scholarliness, as it were, and you can pick your own level. I'm assuming you're interested in the Medieval period in general, rather than the 14th century in particular, but shout if that's not the case, and I can go look for specifics.

Usefully, however, my first recommendation is for a book that's about the 14th century, Ian Mortimer's The Time Traveler's Guide to Medieval England: A Handbook for Visitors to the Fourteenth Century. It's well-written, accessible, and gives a good overview of daily life.

Terry Jones' Medieval Lives by he of Monty Python fame is similarly good and accessible. He approaches it somewhat more in terms of archetypes we have from the Middle Ages, and breaking them down into more realistic details.

Lacey & Danzinger's The Year 1000: What Life Was Like at the Turn of the First Millennium, An Englishman's World is a good rundown of a slightly earlier era, arranged in a slightly odd calendar format. Tom Holland's Millennium: The End of the World and the Forging of Christendom covers Europe in general in a more ordinary format. Of these two, I like Holland's better.

William Jordan's Europe in the High Middle Ages comes highly recommended, with the caveat that I haven't read it myself.

The very best thing you can read, pretty much, for an overview is The New Cambridge Medieval History. It's 7 volumes, though, and pretty expensive to buy (usually round €50 per volume), so you'd be better off to look for it via a library. I don't own a copy myself, but it's on The List (The List has about 200 books on it by now...).

And as a sort of a starter's guide to Medieval History, James Powell's Medieval Studies: An Introduction is worth getting your hands on.

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

Do you take part in any other recreations?

I know lads that do World War recreations and also do a bit of medieval stuff

I don't, myself, but I know a few who do. We have occasional visitors from Viking groups and other HEMA groups (fencing and wrestling), and a good few people in the UK are involved in other groups as well. Mostly, though, they're in or around the same period - it's expensive enough building up a re-enactment standard set of clothing and gear without trying to do so in two different eras.

Realt Dearg Sec

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA wrote: »

Terry Jones' Medieval Lives by he of Monty Python fame is similarly good and accessible. He approaches it somewhat more in terms of archetypes we have from the Middle Ages, and breaking them down into more realistic details.

This reminds me that when I was an undergraduate studying The Knight's Tale in the Canterbury Tales, we read Terry Jones's book on the topic. Although it's a detailed reading of the tale itself, it broadens out into a wider discussion of the social status and reputation of knights in that era, and argues that the then-prevalent reading of the knight's tale as one of chivalry and bravado was wrong, that it is in fact a satire on the degeneracy of knights and their fall from glory into disgrace at that time. Provides a huge amount of evidence, is academically rigorous but written in a lively and enjoyable style.

Which leads me to my question: do many of you have an interest in medieval literature? Does it form any part of the culture for you? You mentioned medieval academics, I knew a few medieval lit people when I was studying and they were always very passionate about the era and a bit strange into the bargain. Do many of them get involved?

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Which leads me to my question: do many of you have an interest in medieval literature? Does it form any part of the culture for you? You mentioned medieval academics, I knew a few medieval lit people when I was studying and they were always very passionate about the era and a bit strange into the bargain. Do many of them get involved

There are a number of academics involved, although they don't always want it known - mainstream academia used to look a little oddly at re-enactment of any kind, and still does in some places.

Nonetheless, medieval literature is a major source of contextual information about life in that period, and we use it pretty extensively. Indeed, for some periods - Scandinavia anytime before 1000CE, for example - literature (often written down somewhat later) in the form of the sagas is almost all we have apart from physical remnants. Major works like Beowulf, The Canterbury Tales, the various Arthurian tellings and retellings, the Decameron[1], and then the gloriously unreliable Bede and Gerald of Wales[2] are all widely used for things as disparate as researching relations between ranks, calligraphy practice, and wording for charters.

After that, we've a few people who do deep dives into literature for specific purposes. I went chasing after a reference a few years ago around the Frankish punishment of harmscar, wherein noblemen were made to carry dogs or saddles from one village to another (sounds trivial, but it was a pretty terrible punishment in their terms), and ended up puzzling out the medieval Latin myself to determine that no, the original text just said "dogs", and the later concept of "dead dogs" was a Victorian embellishment[3].

Other people write period-style poetry, and there is nothing whatsoever to make you dig into the structure and vocabulary of poetry of the era like trying to write some yourself. I've seen this done with Petrarchan and Shakesperean sonnets, with Anglo-Saxon poetry like in the Book of Exeter, and with troudabour songs from Occitan, off the the top of my head.

There was an extensive conversation about the concept of individuality (per Shakespeare, etc) at Raglan a couple of years ago, and I'm still mulling over some bits of that myself. Certainly the concept of interpersonal responsibility is stronger in Medieval than Renaissance writing[4].

Hopefully that goes some way toward answering the question? It's another thing I could ramble on all day about.



[1] One of those words where no matter what way you spell it, it looks wrong.
[2] Some of us had cause to look up what Gerald said about Irish coronation ceremonies recently. It was interesting, at least, but the guy running the event banned us from cooking horse, and I'm pretty sure we'd never get the king to swim in the broth anyway.
[3] Bloody Victorians.
[4] Citation needed.

CelticRambler

Gingereejit wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest When/where is the event in France? And of course, what is it called?

If that's a question referring to my post, our festival is all about music, (trad/acoustic) instruments and dance. You can find out more on the (dreadful) website here: lesoncontinu.com (or PM me for more details)

There are numerous mediaeval fêtes more in keeping with the theme of this thread throughout France, including "daily life" reconstructions, but I don't have the info to hand. The only one I knew well - a village reconstruction, which used to go on for a long weekend - has fizzled out in recent years.

For those interested in the bricks-and-mortar side of things, Château Guedelon is worth a visit - a long-term project (re)building a castle using only traditional techniques, including the on-site tool-making part of mediaeval building sites.

Realt Dearg Sec

Thanks, the Geraldus Cambrensis stuff takes me back to my first year history, eye opening is not the word!

RDM_83 again

Interesting stuff thanks.

How strict are you in terms of clothing, I presume you try and minimize modern fabrics and so on at a minimum? For the hiberno-viking character is there any primary sources to aid recreation? If you go all out for the garb whats it like to spend days in those clothes.
For the Tudor era I'm aware that there is lots of documented Sumptuary laws, do you apply that to your garb in relation to your "rank" or is it ignored as it may have been in the historical reality too?

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Interesting stuff thanks.

How strict are you in terms of clothing, I presume you try and minimize modern fabrics and so on at a minimum? For the hiberno-viking character is there any primary sources to aid recreation? If you go all out for the garb whats it like to spend days in those clothes.
For the Tudor era I'm aware that there is lots of documented Sumptuary laws, do you apply that to your garb in relation to your "rank" or is it ignored as it may have been in the historical reality too?

Aodhan posting:
The rule of thumb for new players is that you must make a genuine attempt to look period (pre-1600CE), such that you look periodish as seen from someone 10 yards away on the back of a galloping horse! Clothing in general is self governed in terms of strictness in our group at least, what usually happens is that in the beginning you'll borrow garb from exiting players until you make your own. Basically, don't turn up in jeans and a band t-shirt, though if you do someone will usually be able to lend you something a bit more period. Aodh will be able to talk about hiberno viking sources, not really my area.
Regarding wearing the clothes for days, they are generally natural fibres and so tend to be very comfortable. Of course, after a week without a shower, natural fibres will only take you so far, but still generally better than modern materials.
Re: sumptuary laws, again that's more of a self restriction when you're making garb, it's basically up to yourself.
We have a few restrictions on particular items, mostly with respect to symbols associated with specific orders. Example being, don't wear a laurel wreathe unless you're a Laurel, don't wear a crown or coronet unless you've earned one!

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

CelticRambler wrote: »

For those interested in the bricks-and-mortar side of things, Château Guedelon is worth a visit - a long-term project (re)building a castle using only traditional techniques, including the on-site tool-making part of mediaeval building sites.

I've been following the progress of Guedelon for a number of years now. It's fantastic, and visiting it is high on my list of priorities. It's very much in the SCA spirit - if I could rely on getting funding from somewhere, or a lottery win, I'd be digging the foundations for a Viking longhouse or a Norman towerhouse tomorrow. Or both. Both would be good.

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

RDM_83 again wrote: »

How strict are you in terms of clothing, I presume you try and minimize modern fabrics and so on at a minimum? For the hiberno-viking character is there any primary sources to aid recreation? If you go all out for the garb whats it like to spend days in those clothes.

We're not at all strict, beyond "you must make an effort". As Aodhan said, most beginners borrow some gear from someone else - and a belted tunic over plain trousers and leather shoes is enough to blend in for guys, while a full-length dress in a simple style, again with a belt, and some head-covering for women can be pretty solid.

There are very few primary sources for Viking clothing. As far as I'm aware, there isn't a single fully extant garment from the Viking era, and the vast majority of clothing evidence is from graves (in Birka, Hedeby, and Jorvik, primarily) where fabrics were in proximity to metal and thereby preserved better[1]. As women tended to have more metal jewellery (or at least be buried with more), we have somewhat more scraps of women's clothing.

Most of what's there is extrapolated from very small pieces, with the result that almost all Viking outfits look similar - there's very little internal variation except in colour and specific fabrics. There are more excavations every year, though, and I live in hope of fully clothed bodies being extracted from bogs or glaciers or other high-preservation environments.

The clothes are extraordinarily comfortable. Part of this is because they're made from natural fibres, and part is because they're (usually) custom-made for each individual. I've been known, when I know I'm going to be at home for the day, to wear my Viking garb rather than jeans and tshirt. And my brát, the standout item of Irish medieval clothing (actually just three metres of thick woolen cloth) which acts as a cloak sees constant use - when I'm not wearing it as a cloak, it sits on the couch for people to wrap around themselves, or on the bed as an extra blanket. I've slept wrapped up in it, too, and been perfectly comfortable. It's also been a picnic blanket, wrapped around miscellaneous stuff in order to carry it, and can reliably keep the rain off three adults by a campfire.

Wearing the same garb for several days in a row is also more comfortable than with modern clothes. Seams don't tend to rub in the same way as on, say, jeans, for example. After a few days camping, I tend to smell more of woodsmoke than anything else, so I can't really say if the clothes pick up bodily odours more or less than modern ones.

For the Tudor era I'm aware that there is lots of documented Sumptuary laws, do you apply that to your garb in relation to your "rank" or is it ignored as it may have been in the historical reality too?

Irritatingly, while there's a lot of notes that there were sumptuary laws, tracking down what they were is quite difficult. Tudor England is better for that than, say, 16th Century Venice, but there are still gaps. And we're pretty sure that the laws were not observed as much as they might have been in period - indeed, paying the fines for clothing you weren't supposed to wear may have been a form of wealth display in some times and places.

Some people go very carefully about researching and following period laws; others go for the reliable method of duplicating the clothing in portraits, and having a persona of the same status as the depicted person.

Otherwise, as Aodhan noted, there are a few markers of rank and status within the SCA, which go a little way toward reproducing period sumptuary laws. White belts, unadorned chains and spurs are the markers of knights, for instance. Crowns and coronets go with other ranks, red, green, and yellow belts have significance, and there are a few other badges and signals (laurel wreaths, pelicans, silver arm-guards) which are to greater or lesser degrees reserved.

[1] There's a lot of chemistry in the explanation, and I'm not completely sure I understand it all, but the upshot is: bits of fabric with metal resting on them are often preserved.

Gloomtastic!

Is there a heirarchy or is everyone equal? Could you make yourself King or do you have to kill the existing holder, and his offspring to win the Crown?

CaptainR

Has the popularity of shows like Game of Thrones increased the number of new people joining? Are there any areas of the show (if you watch it) that are quite accurate as opposed to films made 20+ years ago?

Obviously its fantasy but some parts seem that they could be realistic enough such as the dreariness of being in an army or the way battles are fought.

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Is there a heirarchy or is everyone equal? Could you make yourself King or do you have to kill the existing holder, and his offspring to win the Crown?

There is hierarchy, and this is a thing that some people have difficulty with - some Irish people in particular refuse to deal with the notion of a king, even in a game. The King and Queen (or King & King, or Queen & Queen, in theory) are at the top of that hierarchy. There's a strict order of precedence after that: duchies, counties, viscounties, bestowed peerages, court baronies, grants of arms, awards of arms, and then anyone else. The concept of the order of precedence is real (and was deeply important in the latter end of the medieval era), but our form of it is not all that reflective of reality.

You cannot make yourself King by fiat. To become King, you need to enter and win the crown tournament. To enter the tournament, you need to be an authorised armoured fighter, have a consort who will enter with you, and have attended a minimum number of events in the kingdom in the previous 12 months. To win, you need to be a really good heavy fighter, because all the other entrants want to win too, and they've been training in this stuff for years - sometimes ten or twenty years. If you win that, and you're male (or more strictly, your persona is male - there are some women with male personas and vice versa), you become King by Right of Arms, and your consort is King or Queen (sometimes styled 'by right of grace and beauty').

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

CaptainR wrote: »

Has the popularity of shows like Game of Thrones increased the number of new people joining? Are there any areas of the show (if you watch it) that are quite accurate as opposed to films made 20+ years ago?

GoT seems to have increased the number of queries we get, but not really the number of people joining. I'm not certain what the people who inquire but don't join were looking for, to be honest. More nakedness, one assumes.

GoT itself is... not accurate. Notoriously badly so. Although there are very, very few portrayals of medieval life on TV or film that are in any way accurate, to be honest.

CaptainR wrote: »

Obviously its fantasy but some parts seem that they could be realistic enough such as the dreariness of being in an army or the way battles are fought.

Some of the politics of GoT are realistic enough; dynastic concerns and infighting were major preoccupations of the medieval era (and the series draws a lot from the English Wars of the Roses). The dreariness of being in an army is probably accurate enough as such things go, although I suspect that GoT's portrayal of illness, disease, and untreated injury among armies on the move is way below reality.

With regard to the way in which battles are fought, however, GoT is an ahistorical mess. There was an episode toward the end of the last season for which the writers claimed they had done loads of research for a particular battle. The research appeared to consist of 'is it physically possible to do this? No? Ah well, we'll write it in anyway'.

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

With no questions in a while, I'll close out the thread with some contact information.

Our website is: http://www.duninmara.org/
We're on Twitter as @duninmara, and on FB at http://www.facebook.com/duninmara.

Thank you all!

Boards.ie: Niamh

Thanks guys for all your time and the really detailed answers, they were great. It's been a really interesting and unusual AMA!