Need property for son

Cath54

If tenant is given proper written termination notice and declaration , is there any circumstance where they can refuse to move out? Always had good relationship with tenant and never put up rent even tho it is well below market rates. Have given notice we need property next Aug for our son who will need accommodation then as starting college- we flagged this to her last summer so she would be aware we wouldn't be renewing again after that 6 month lease was signed. Was met with hostility and says she is now pregnant and that this changes everything for us. Is this true?
We are gutted for obvious reasons as we need the place for our own child but also because we have been really decent landlords.

Stheno

How long has she been there?

Once you give her a valid notice with the correct notice period she has to move out. You can tell her being pregnant is not an excuse nor is any other nonsense excuse she might come up with. Just make sure the notice is valid in every way so that if she goes to the RTB she will be told where to go.

Everyday we read about LLs being extra nice to tenants and then how they act the b*llocks when asked to move. Any LL should take note of this and remember to keep rent as high as possible and meet their obligations but no more in all areas of the tenancy as going above and beyond gets you zero thanks.

Boater123

Sorry to tell you this but yes tenants have been known to stay after the termination date. When correct procedure's with notice of termination were followed it's called illegal over holding.

Your tenant has fired a warning shot across your bows that they are going to be difficult. Seek proper legal advice now as these things have been known to drag out, sometimes as long as two years so time is of the essence.

Perhaps contact the free legal advice service in your area?
http://www.flac.ie/help/centres/

CIARAN_BOYLE

It may be worth giving her notice now, your son can move in early (need it for June not august) so that if she tries illegally over holding you have time to begin the procedure of getting her out.

thierry14

Louis Thoughtless Clothespin wrote: »

Everyday we read about LLs being extra nice to tenants and then how they act the b*llocks when asked to move. Any LL should take note of this and remember to keep rent as high as possible and meet their obligations but no more in all areas of the tenancy as going above and beyond gets you zero thanks.

Exactly

No favours, it's a business.

Keep them on the edge.

Been a landlord for the last year, got out few weeks ago, it's a horrible business to be in.

Had to walk on eggs shells around them and hope to god they don't stick there heels in.

Felt like I had no control at all and those ***** knew it.

OP thread carefully with them of they are giving lip already, law is with them if they are there a few years.

Have a plan b for your son just incase things turn ugly.

Horrible that you have to have a plan b, but this is property Ireland 2017

Friend had to pay tenants compensation to get his out, it was pay 2k or have them stay after notice for god knows how long, solicitors, courts, prtb, nightmare scenario

davindub

Louis Thoughtless Clothespin wrote: »

Once you give her a valid notice with the correct notice period she has to move out. You can tell her being pregnant is not an excuse nor is any other nonsense excuse she might come up with. Just make sure the notice is valid in every way so that if she goes to the RTB she will be told where to go.

Everyday we read about LLs being extra nice to tenants and then how they act the b*llocks when asked to move. Any LL should take note of this and remember to keep rent as high as possible and meet their obligations but no more in all areas of the tenancy as going above and beyond gets you zero thanks.

In fairness you won't read much about the tenants who have had low rent, were given notice and moved out.

Boater123

davindub wrote: »

In fairness you won't read much about the tenants who have had low rent, were given notice and moved out.

Very true...and in numbers these tenants surely far outweigh the bad few.

However, the stories of the bad few should incentive enough to heed Jasper Crashing Raid advice. Keep it professional it's a business. Being a LL that goes over the top always comes back to bite you sooner or later.

Cath54

Thank you all for your replies. The tenant has been there few years but we gave her head up last year because we didn't want to just land her in it suddenly even tho she is entitled to 196 days notice. We just wanted to do the decent thing by her. Feeling like complete fools now.

davindub

Boater123 wrote: »

Very true...and in numbers these tenants surely far outweigh the bad few.

However, the stories of the bad few should incentive enough to heed Jasper Crashing Raid advice. Keep it professional it's a business. Being a LL that goes over the top always comes back to bite you sooner or later.

True enough, it needs to work as an investment as well.

But I definitely do not agree with the rent being kept as high as possible, leads to issues like rent controls, etc. The market needs to be reasonable on both the tenant and LL side otherwise legislation will attempt to address.

Wheety

Give her the minimum required notice starting now.

Cath54

Wheety wrote: »

Give her the minimum required notice starting now.

Yes we have done

Cuddlesworth

davindub wrote: »

In fairness you won't read much about the tenants who have had low rent, were given notice and moved out.

In the past or recently? I have heard of a few landlords who are having difficulty recovering property from sitting tenants, where their rent is 50-60% market rate. For the reason that their rent was so low, they can't afford anything else in the area they "want" to live. So moving out keeps getting delayed until they dig their heels in. I can understand, when your rent goes up by 4 figures, its going to be difficult to adjust. In every case its the landlords fault though.

davindub

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

In the past or recently? I have heard of a few landlords who are having difficulty recovering property from sitting tenants, where their rent is 50-60% market rate. For the reason that their rent was so low, they can't afford anything else in the area they "want" to live. So moving out keeps getting delayed until they dig their heels in. I can understand, when your rent goes up by 4 figures, its going to be difficult to adjust. In every case its the landlords fault though.

Exactly what I said, you only hear the bad cases, I understand why it can happen but it's not the norm. Bad tenants exist just as do bad ll's. Doesn't mean the majority are going to cause trouble.

Graces7

davindub wrote: »

In fairness you won't read much about the tenants who have had low rent, were given notice and moved out.

Thank you; as i did recently. Maybe landlords forget that a rental is our home.

pilly

Cath54 wrote: »

Yes we have done

Have you done it in writing?

TheChizler

pilly wrote: »

Have you done it in writing?

This could be as simple as a text or email either. Something you have a record of.

Edit: Ignore me I got my threads mixed up. Thought this was notification that a tenant was planning to stay on past the end of the lease.

Cath54

TheChizler wrote: »

This could be as simple as a text or email either. Something you have a record of.

Yes gave written notification and written declaration as to reason we can't renew lease.

pilly

Cath54 wrote: »

Yes gave written notification and written declaration as to reason we can't renew lease.

I suppose that's all you can do for now then.

Terrible situation to be in when you've been good enough to give a person adequate notice. Hopefully she will just find something else.

Del2005

Cath54 wrote: »

Yes gave written notification and written declaration as to reason we can't renew lease.

Did you do it as per RTB guidelines?

Cath54

Del2005 wrote: »

Did you do it as per RTB guidelines?

Yes as per guidelines. We went by the sample templates on their website.

Cath54

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

In the past or recently? I have heard of a few landlords who are having difficulty recovering property from sitting tenants, where their rent is 50-60% market rate. For the reason that their rent was so low, they can't afford anything else in the area they "want" to live. So moving out keeps getting delayed until they dig their heels in. I can understand, when your rent goes up by 4 figures, its going to be difficult to adjust. In every case its the landlords fault though.

Sorry to resurrect this post, but can anyone pm me details of a solicitor in Dublin who can advise us? This thing is escalating out of control.

pilly

Cath54 wrote: »

Sorry to resurrect this post, but can anyone pm me details of a solicitor in Dublin who can advise us? This thing is escalating out of control.

Is she definitely digging her heels in?

Cath54

Looks like it. Locks changed and tenant won't speak with us directly only thru a third party who we don't know.

pilly

Cath54 wrote:

Looks like it. Locks changed and tenant won't speak with us directly only thru a third party who we don't know.

Well she's done something illegal there by changing the locks. Disgraceful carry on.

groovyg

Cath54 wrote: »

Looks like it. Locks changed and tenant won't speak with us directly only thru a third party who we don't know.

You'll need to put the pressure on now, thats a big no no tenants are not supposed to change the locks. Have you contacted the RTB ?

pilly

groovyg wrote:

You'll need to put the pressure on now, thats a big no no tenants are not supposed to change the locks. Have you contacted the RTB ?

Have to be honest but I've yet to hear of a case where RTB helped a LL, bloody disgrace.

groovyg

pilly wrote: »

Have to be honest but I've yet to hear of a case where RTB helped a LL, bloody disgrace.

I totally agree, I've seen plenty of cases where landlords were left out of pocket as a result of tenants overholding or worse wrecking the place.
Can the landlord get a locksmith around to change the locks so they can have access to the house. Its totally illegal what they have done.

Graces7

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

In the past or recently? I have heard of a few landlords who are having difficulty recovering property from sitting tenants, where their rent is 50-60% market rate. For the reason that their rent was so low, they can't afford anything else in the area they "want" to live. So moving out keeps getting delayed until they dig their heels in. I can understand, when your rent goes up by 4 figures, its going to be difficult to adjust. In every case its the landlords fault though.

Seeing it from both sides.. if they are working then they need to be in that area. I had to move 200 miles this year as the only property I could afford was up here. It is not something to be undertaken lightly but I knew why my ll needed the house and we got on well. Just moved as soon as I could.

pilly

Graces7 wrote: »

Seeing it from both sides.. if they are working then they need to be in that area. I had to move 200 miles this year as the only property I could afford was up here. It is not something to be undertaken lightly but I knew why my ll needed the house and we got on well. Just moved as soon as I could.

I see what you're saying Graces7 but it's not a private LL's problem to provide accommodation for someone just because they can't find somewhere else.

FishOnABike

Cath54 wrote: »

Looks like it. Locks changed and tenant won't speak with us directly only thru a third party who we don't know.

I think it may be worth getting proper legal advice on this.

I wouldn't be too quick to get a locksmith to change the lock as this might be construed as 'interfering with their right to peaceful enjoyment of their home'.

It might however be a breach of their tenancy agreement which in itself may be grounds for issuing a separate termination notice for which a much shorter period, than that required under section 4 of the RTA, might apply.

Whatever you do, make sure you do it by the book. You don't want things getting even messier.

Ursus Horribilis

groovyg wrote: »

Can the landlord get a locksmith around to change the locks so they can have access to the house. Its totally illegal what they have done.

The OP would be insane to let a locksmith near the place in the circumstances. I'm no legal expert but surely this action by the tenant is going to work in the OP's favour?

emeldc

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

The OP would be insane to let a locksmith near the place in the circumstances. I'm no legal expert but surely this action by the tenant is going to work in the OP's favour?

It will work in LL's favour but I don't think it will speed up the RTB process. Does anyone know how long it takes these days. 12/18 months?

Cath54

Thank you for your replies and to pm reply also. I think we will be in this for the long haul. It's just so disappointing when relations were always amicable up to now. The sudden switch and hostility is unnerving to say the least.

76544567

Cath54 wrote: »

Thank you for your replies and to pm reply also. I think we will be in this for the long haul. It's just so disappointing when relations were always amicable up to now. The sudden switch and hostility is unnerving to say the least.

Had the same problem myself recently. A couple who I would have described as the best tenants over had suddenly turned into the tenants from hell. Because they could and there is nothing I could do about getting them out within a couple of years even when the stopped paying rent.

dolallyoh

76544567 wrote: »

Had the same problem myself recently. A couple who I would have described as the best tenants over had suddenly turned into the tenants from hell. Because they could and there is nothing I could do about getting them out within a couple of years even when the stopped paying rent.

Terrible - how did it end for you ?

sreilly37

76544567 wrote: »

Had the same problem myself recently. A couple who I would have described as the best tenants over had suddenly turned into the tenants from hell. Because they could and there is nothing I could do about getting them out within a couple of years even when the stopped paying rent.

There should be a bad tenants registry online with all these people's names listed :mad:

76544567

dolallyoh wrote: »

Terrible - how did it end for you ?

It got handled is all I can say.

FAILSAFE 00

It should be pointed out that even if you win a RTB case the tenant can still not be removed unless they decide to leave. You then need to go to court to show them the RTB case result so the court issues an order for them to be removed.

Just madness. Personally I wouldn't let the law cost me this much income.

76544567

sreilly37 wrote: »

There should be a bad tenants registry online with all these people's names listed :mad:

Always ask for last three landlords reference s.
Ignore the last one. He would say anything to get rid of a bad tenant of they were bad, so can't be trusted. As would anyone.
However the previous landlords won't have any such problem telling you how they are.

And first question should be have they ever been late with rent, even once. And if they have, then cross them off the list. You just can't take chances anymore with the deck stacked against you. You need to protect yourself.

76544567

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

It should be pointed out that even if you win a RTB case the tenant can still not be removed unless they decide to leave. You then need to go to court to show them the RTB case result so the court issues an order for them to be removed.

Just madness.

Even then, with a court order, you still have a ways to go before you get them out.

FAILSAFE 00

Reference are next to useless in my opinion.

I caught one landlord lying just to get rid of a bad tenant. He spook highly about his wonderful tenant who he was sorry to lose. Luckily enough a friend lived a few doors down from that landlords property and explained the tenant had practically destroyed it.

For prospective tenants I'd meet them face to face and get them to talk through their previous tenancies and ask for their landlords contact details. If they even hesitate strike them off the list.

Ask for a work reference and proof that they work there.

Look for 2-3 months rent deposit.

Caliden

Graces7 wrote: »

Seeing it from both sides.. if they are working then they need to be in that area. I had to move 200 miles this year as the only property I could afford was up here. It is not something to be undertaken lightly but I knew why my ll needed the house and we got on well. Just moved as soon as I could.

The OP has explained earlier that the tenant was given a heads up about this last Summer so she's had 6 months notice before even being given official notice.

emeldc

What I don't get sometimes is that all these 'difficult' tenants all have to live somewhere else eventually. If they vacated like they have been asked there would be no problem with a reference and they would have a good chance of getting something else. I don't know anyone who would take a new tenant on without a well scrutanised reference. In the long run the tenant really has little to gain.

dapop

sreilly37 wrote: »

There should be a bad tenants registry online with these people's names listed :mad:

Will never happen due to the risk of libel. Same goes for a register of bad landlords.

Re the locks it is a breach but with any breach you need to give the opportunity to remedy the breach so write to the tenant and say the locks have been changed without your consent and in breach of their tenancy agreement (and the 2004 RTA) and the original locks are to be reinstated within 7 days. They will not do this but it is all evidence if you end up in an RTB adjudication.

Work on the basis that you are going to end up in adjudication where accurate and easily referenced records are paramount - the RTB simply apply the law (the adjudicators are usually solicitors) to any case but if there is a grey area then they will give the benefit of doubt to a tenant generally. Do not leave grey areas.

I would recommend only communicating with the tenant in writing and send everything swift post - proof of delivery but does not need to be signed for. Your tenant will not sign for registered letters - provable non delivery.

In my experience most tenants will engage with the adjudication and then appeal it. This does not always take months (I know of one adjudication that happened in early November 2016 and appeal was heard in late December 2016). Once the appeal is heard you will hopefully have an order to vacate in your favour that a tenant cannot appeal further (except on a point of law).

If the tenant still does not vacate you need to get the order enforced by the court. The RTB will do this in some cases but you are far better employing a solicitor to get it enforced - far quicker but could still take a few weeks depending on court dates.

The number of good tenants and landlords far outweigh the bad ones. And for the record I have always found that if landlords and tenants are fair with each tenancies run far more smoothly. Sure some people will take advantage but once again this is a minority with a disproportionate presence on forums etc....

Cath54

Yes I have already done this dapop except I sent by registered mail
Will just have to wait and see what happens now and whether post will be signed for or not.
And I agree with you about being fair - we were - and feel like complete idiots now.

wersal gummage

Terrible. Just out of curiosity, how do you know the locks have been changed?

76544567

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

Reference are next to useless in my opinion.

I caught one landlord lying just to get rid of a bad tenant. He spook highly about his wonderful tenant who he was sorry to lose. Luckily enough a friend lived a few doors down from that landlords property and explained the tenant had practically destroyed it.

For prospective tenants I'd meet them face to face and get them to talk through their previous tenancies and ask for their landlords contact details. If they even hesitate strike them off the list.

Ask for a work reference and proof that they work there.

Look for 2-3 months rent deposit.

Yeah current landlord reference is useless. Need to get references from last few landlords and then work from there

pilly

76544567 wrote: »

Yeah current landlord reference is useless. Need to get references from last few landlords and then work from there

But you always get people who say they haven't rented before. In some cases it's true. Definitely was in my case last year.

76544567

pilly wrote: »

But you always get people who say they haven't rented before. In some cases it's true. Definitely was in my case last year.

They wouldn't be for me. I would move on to the next applicant and let the ones who haven't rented before get a history with someone willing to take a risk on them.

Cath54

wersal gummage wrote: »

Terrible. Just out of curiosity, how do you know the locks have been changed?

A stranger called us to say boiler was broken and she had keys to let plumber in to fix if we could organise it as the locks have been changed. Tenant will not communicate with us all of a sudden. Don't know who this other person is. Says she is a friend