Community National Schools - Bruton steps up support

yoganinja

According to report in the Irish Independent today Min Bruton has stated his strong support for this school model (sorry can't post url as too few posts )

He said while these schools were not that well known among the public, he believed they had "a bright future ahead" and a major role to play in providing choice to parents in the future.

He told the annual conference of the Irish Primary Principals Network (IPPN) that on the issue of faith and belief nurturing, the philosophy of community national schools was based on international best practice in this area.



Mr Bruton also made a veiled reference to other differences between community national schools and Educate Together schools which, he said many parents, appreciated, including that children wear a school uniform and that teachers are referred to formally.

expectationlost

Religious identity is explicitly not left at the school gate' - Minister pledges strong support for community national schools http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/religious-identity-is-explicitly-not-left-at-the-school-gate-minister-pledges-strong-support-for-community-national-schools-35402891.html

extracts from speech http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Speeches/2017-Speeches/27%20January,%202017%20-%20Minister%20Bruton%20addresses%20IPPN%20Conference%20-%20extracts%20from%20speech%20.html

Emma O'Kelly takes a different tack Minister sees merit in separate faith instruction in schools http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0127/848086-news-in-brief/ although there doesn't seem to anything wrong with that headline except that CNS schools are going to by default catholic.

recedite

A quick summary of the new CNS model, which the Minister now favours;

1. Allows for the traditional first holy communion classes and sacramental preparation to continue in a state school, while also ostensibly being "multi-denominational" and catering for the "new Irish". The solution is for non-catholics to be segregated during these times and to have their own faith formation. It is suggested that atheists can "meditate" during faith formation classes.

2. CNS evolved relatively recently (in the last couple of years) as a new primary school model from the well established ETB secondary schools, which used to be called VEC schools.

3. The religious program was developed and approved at the Marino Institute by RCC religious experts without consulting non-catholics.

Around the same time, ET (the well established primary school manager) ventured into secondary schools, with the result they they are both in direct competition now for the management of any newly built state schools.
The policy of ET schools is not to allow faith formation classes during school hours, or the segregation of pupils into different groups according to religion/ethnicity.

The Minister is quite correct that ET have a reputation for being relatively informal, with teachers beingreferred to by their first names, and no school uniforms. Some parents like that, and some don't. Not just parents either. I met a primary school teacher a while ago who refused to apply for any jobs in ET schools because she felt teachers were not addressed properly or accorded the proper level of respect by the pupils.
(Although I suspect the ET kids were the lucky ones; not to get her as a teacher :pac:)

Hotblack Desiato

If the RCC is OK with ETB schools, that's a huge warning sign in itself. (In fact they had a huge part in devising how they would be run, and many VEC/ETB secondaries have for years been 'catholic lite' schools.)

Segregating pupils during the school day on the basis of religion should not be acceptable.

I'm sure an ET could have a uniform if the parent body wanted it. Didn't the ET secondary featured in an RTE documentary a few months back introduce uniforms following parental demand?

There's a joint patronage ET/ETB secondary just outside the catchment area of where I live (:() which initially was going to have no uniforms but the parents of the future first years wanted it so uniforms it is. I went to the open day a while back, it's been open a year and a half now and appears to be a great school with good facilities and very motivated staff and pupils.

I don't know how the pupils address the teachers, and couldn't care less! I would be anti-uniform myself (never went to a school with one) the other half is the opposite, but it would not weigh into my preference for one school or the other

Hoping to get our two in there when the time comes, as the only options in our area are single-sex religious order run RC :mad:

mkaobrih

Template to help you make a short submission to Minister for Education’s consultation process
http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2017/01/template-short-submission/

smacl

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

There's a joint patronage ET/ETB secondary just outside the catchment area of where I live (:() which initially was going to have no uniforms but the parents of the future first years wanted it so uniforms it is. I went to the open day a while back, it's been open a year and a half now and appears to be a great school with good facilities and very motivated staff and pupils.

Youngest is going to an ET secondary which so far seems truly excellent. No school uniforms but a dress code set with the input of the parents in terms of what is an is not acceptable. That aside, the style of education also seems very different, with a lot of focus on team based project work, presentation skills and communications skills more so exam preparation, with a tablet PC being used in place of work books. Watching her doing Spanish homework with earphones on using an audiovisual tutor is a real eye opener, and the fact that she's up for a junior enterprise award just six months into first year speaks volumes about the motivation and enthusiasm of the staff. Comparing it to the Catholic all girls school my eldest goes to is really comparing chalk and cheese. School uniforms and religious ethos are really only the tip of the iceberg and in my opinion the least important of differentiators.

J C

Quote:-
"Education Minister Richard Bruton has reiterated his strong support for the growth of community national schools as a way of offering parents more choice.

Community national schools offer a multi-denominational approach to religious education, catering for all beliefs in the school day.
They are like a hybrid between the traditional religious run schools, which focus on teaching one religion, and the growing Educate Together model that provides for no religious teaching inside the school day.

Mr Bruton also made a veiled reference to other differences between community national schools and Educate Together schools which, he said many parents, appreciated, including that children wear a school uniform and that teachers are referred to formally."

Something that people of all religions and none could sign onto ... and the kind of thing that liberal secularists, like myself, welcome.
There should still be room for other models of school, of course, like ET and church-run schools ... diversity is the spice of life and a bit of competition between schools does no harm either.

expectationlost

J C wrote: »

Quote:-
"Education Minister Richard Bruton has reiterated his strong support for the growth of community national schools as a way of offering parents more choice.

Community national schools offer a multi-denominational approach to religious education, catering for all beliefs in the school day.
They are like a hybrid between the traditional religious run schools, which focus on teaching one religion, and the growing Educate Together model that provides for no religious teaching inside the school day.

Mr Bruton also made a veiled reference to other differences between community national schools and Educate Together schools which, he said many parents, appreciated, including that children wear a school uniform and that teachers are referred to formally."

Something that people of all religions and none could sign onto ... and the kind of thing that liberal secularists, like myself, welcome.
There should still be room for other models of school, of course, like ET and church-run schools ... diversity is the spice of life and a bit of competition between schools does no harm either.

what we need is the state to take on the responsibilty of providing a network of state secular schools that doens't exist as they'e abdicated it to mostly 1 religion.

welcoming a little competition is totally underestimating the problem, Bruton is trying to create strife between groups of parents as a distraction from the government lack of action over many years, in school planning via catholic domination.

a little 'bit' of choice or competition simply isn't good enough, because still so many families will be stuck going to catholic schools when they'd rather not.


and as ever Atheist Ireland has the details on CNS' http://atheist.ie/2017/01/community-national-schools/

expectationlost

School facilities to be leased instead of transferred to non-religious patrons http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/school-facilities-to-be-leased-441358.html

Bruton to pay church for schools while they stay Christian http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2017/01/christian-etb-schools/

ET points out it seems like pretty crappy type of competition of ETB gets to select which schools are transfer and then also wants to be patron of those schools
http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0130/848629-school-patronage-bruton/

ET https://www.educatetogether.ie/media/national-news/divestment-2017

Dept of ed announcement http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2017-Press-Releases/PR17-01-30.html

Hotblack Desiato

This plan really is unbelieveable. RCC gets more taxpayers' money, gets to keep most of its schools while making them more catholic as there is no need to pretend to accommodate non-RCs there any more.

The worst of all possible worlds.

recedite

So the Dept. wants to pay rent to the RCC for schools which were in most cases built up and maintained through the use of state building and capitation grants and/or public donations?

Even if the schools are still effectively religious schools.
And even if religious orders still owe the state money as redress payments

How is that "divestment"? Its daylight robbery :mad:

J C

recedite wrote: »

So the Dept. wants to pay rent to the RCC for schools which were in most cases built up and maintained through the use of state building and capitation grants and/or public donations?

Even if the schools are still effectively religious schools.
And even if religious orders still owe the state money as redress payments

How is that "divestment"? Its daylight robbery :mad:

Its respect for private property ... something, along with respect for religion, that the Russian Communists also paid scant regard to.

If redress payments are owed, that's another matter ... but your average Church run school owes no redress payments - to anybody.

J C

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

This plan really is unbelieveable. RCC gets more taxpayers' money, gets to keep most of its schools while making them more catholic as there is no need to pretend to accommodate non-RCs there any more.

The worst of all possible worlds.

I think you may be 'catastrophising' somewhat.

Church run schools are already accommodating diversity of faith ... and I don't see them reverting to a 1950's model any time soon.
I'd have thought you guys would have welcomed an addition to the spectrum of school type ... that better reflects the spectrum of parental choice out there

... but instead you start using apocalyptic language about a proposed increase in parental choice.

... extend the hand of love to your friends and neighbours in church run schools ... you never know ... they may love you back.:)

J C

expectationlost wrote: »

and as ever Atheist Ireland has the details on CNS' http://atheist.ie/2017/01/community-national-schools/

Who is this Atheist Ireland?

I thought from reading some of the postings here that Atheists are all individuals, unable to organise anything on their behalf ... and lo and behold we have ... Atheist Ireland ... doing precisely that!!!

BTW its perfectly acceptable and correct what Atheist Ireland does ... and they have a very able person in Michael Nugent ... but just don't say that Atheists can't organise themselves every bit as effectively, as any church can.

looksee

J C wrote: »

I think you may be 'catastrophising' somewhat.

Church run schools are already accommodating diversity of faith ... and I don't see them reverting to a 1950's model any time soon.
I'd have thought you guys would have welcomed an addition to the spectrum of school type ... that better reflects the spectrum of parental choice out there

... but instead you start using apocalyptic language about a proposed increase in parental choice.

... extend the hand of love to your friends and neighbours in church run schools ... you never know ... they may love you back.:)

Oh puhleeeze! The whole point of this discussion is that the current proposed legislation makes about as much sense as what is going on in the US at the moment. And its being pushed along with a similar amount of spin that desperately hopes to cover up what is actually happening.

J C

looksee wrote: »

Oh puhleeeze! The whole point of this discussion is that the current proposed legislation makes about as much sense as what is going on in the US at the moment. And its being pushed along with a similar amount of spin that desperately hopes to cover up what is actually happening.

Seeing Donald Trump in everything ... including domestic Irish proposals for schools, is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
If a school decides to build a wall outside its premises ... are you going to start drawing comparisons with Trump's infamous wall ?

robindch

Mod:

J C wrote: »

Who is this Atheist Ireland?

JC - Just reminding you again that you are required from time to time to contribute to the discussion here, and not just soapbox lame gags.

smacl

J C wrote: »

Church run schools are already accommodating diversity of faith ... and I don't see them reverting to a 1950's model any time soon.

Rubbish. Church run schools reluctantly tolerate people of different religious beliefs when they can't get enough students of their own faith to fill places. This is clearly illustrated by the nonsense that is the baptism barrier. Even when non-Catholics get places within Catholic schools the ethos of those schools is such that they are actively proselytising those of other beliefs, which is clearly unacceptable.

J C

robindch wrote: »

Mod:JC - Just reminding you again that you are required from time to time to contribute to the discussion here, and not just soapbox lame gags.

No problem Robin ... it was just a rhetorical question, to make my point about Atheists being well served in promoting their point of view with quality professional organisations like Atheist Ireland.

Michael Nugent

J C wrote: »

No problem Robin ... it was just a rhetorical question, to make my point about Atheists being well served in promoting their point of view with quality professional organisations like Atheist Ireland.

I should clarify that, unlike many advocacy groups and religions, one of the attributes of professionalism that we in Atheist Ireland lack is a salary

J C

Michael Nugent wrote: »

I should clarify that, unlike many advocacy groups and religions, one of the attributes of professionalism that we in Atheist Ireland lack is a salary

I admire the professional quality you bring to your advocacy for the Atheist position.
Your professionalism isn't diminished by not having a salary IMO ... and my admiration is increased by it.
This doesn't mean that I agree with what you say ... I just admire how you say it.:)
BTW I think that you should be compensated for your time and effort on behalf of Atheist Ireland ... but of course, that is a matter strictly between yourself and Atheist Ireland.:)

recedite

J C wrote: »

BTW I think that you should be compensated for your time and effort on behalf of Atheist Ireland ... but of course, that is a matter strictly between yourself and Atheist Ireland.:)

There is considerable public money being spent every year on various chaplaincy services. Perhaps you would agree some of that should be diverted?

Hotblack Desiato

How can ETB be allowed to act as a judge in their own case? 'Surveying demand' for patronage change while being a patron themselves.

Then there's paying rent to the RCC for schools built by taxpayers' money - like ground rent to pre-independence absentee landlords. But they're not absentees, they'll still dictate the religious curriculum in these schools.

J C

recedite wrote: »

There is considerable public money being spent every year on various chaplaincy services. Perhaps you would agree some of that should be diverted?

I don't see any issue with having an Atheist on a chaplancy service ... but I don't think that Atheist Ireland would claim to be such a service.:)

recedite

J C wrote: »

... but I don't think that Atheist Ireland would claim to be such a service.:)

They wouldn't be very good at it anyway. Too much realism.
"Listen dude, you may as well face it, you only had one shot at life and you messed up, and now you're fooked. Next please...."

J C

recedite wrote: »

They wouldn't be very good at it anyway. Too much realism.
"Listen dude, you may as well face it, you only had one shot at life and you messed up, and now you're fooked. Next please...."

Not much compassion or even Human warmth in your variety of Atheism ... eh?

An atheist, as callous as that, on a chaplancy service, might win more people for Jesus Christ, than anything 100 Christians could intitially say to them!!!

The 'good cop / bad cop' contrast would be so dramatic, that it might even cause some Atheists to come to a death bed salvation.:eek:

J C

recedite wrote: »

They (Atheists) wouldn't be very good at it anyway. Too much realism.
"Listen dude, you may as well face it, you only had one shot at life and you messed up, and now you're fooked. Next please...."

Such cold-hearted 'realism', as you call it, is something that genuinely scares parents about what might happen to the ethos of schools where irreligion came to dominate ... and the kind of attitutes that could develop in their children, as a result of being exposed to such negativity, during their formative years.
Would you like your child to become the kind of person who says that to you (or anybody else), on their deathbed?
I certainly wouldn't. I'd like to see love and compassion in the heart of my children ... and my children's school.


Marx called religion 'the opium of the people' ... and even it this is true, in some respects, what is wrong with something that helps to safely ease people's psychological and psychic pain?
You may argue that this religious 'opium' is based on an illusion ... but then all Psychotropic medications prescribed for depression and other psychological pain, create degrees of positive feelings and appropriate 'illusions' ... indeed that is their prime mechanism of functionality.

looksee

I think you possibly had an irony by-pass JC.

J C

looksee wrote: »

I think you possibly had an irony by-pass JC.

Recedite may have been exaggerating for effect ... but nontheless, he obviously believes there is a kernel of truth in what he says about the approach of some Atheists to inter-human relations ... or he wouldn't have said it ... or indeed, thought it to be funny.

The cold rationalism, which some irrelgionists pride themselves for, can spill over into inter-Human relations as well ... and that is of concern to many parents making the choice of school for their children in their formative years.

Some people think they are doing children a favour by pointing out that Santa isn't real ... and some people think they are also doing children a favour by telling them that God doesn't exist, as well.
Many would disagree (on both counts).

... and BTW for anybody else suffering from an irony by-pass ... I'm not equating a belief in Santa and God ... one is a temporary belief based on the generosity and 'magic' which Humans can create ... and the other is a permanent belief based on the reality of a loving just God.
That's my belief, anyway ... and the belief of most parents in Ireland.

looksee

J C wrote: »

Recedite may have been exaggerating for effect ... but nontheless, he obviously believes there is a kernel of truth in what he says about the approach of some Atheists to inter-human relations ... or he wouldn't have said it ... or indeed, thought it to be funny.

The cold rationalism, which some irrelgionists pride themselves for, can spill over into inter-Human relations as well ... and that is of concern to many parents making the choice of school for their children in their formative years.

Some people think they are doing chidren a favour by pointing out that Santa isn't real ... and some people think they are also doing children a favour by telling them that God doesn't exist, as well.
Many would disagree.

So you have never come across any coldly irrational religious?

J C

looksee wrote: »

So you have never come across any coldly irrational religious?

If and when you do, they are acting against their nominal belief in a loving God and how they should treat their neighbour ... whereas, as Recedite is suggesting, cold rationalism is the nominal 'stock in trade' of irreligion.

BTW I've also come across more than my fair share of irrational irreligionists, as well ... but that's a whole other story.:D

recedite

J C wrote: »

Recedite may have been exaggerating for effect ... but nonetheless, he obviously believes there is a kernel of truth in what he says about the approach of some Atheists to inter-human relations ... or he wouldn't have said it ... or indeed, thought it to be funny.

Quite right, I was exaggerating. After all, there may be times when it would benefit people to face up to the reality if their situation, and then to teach them better life skills/coping methods. At the same time, yes, a grain of truth.

J C wrote: »

Marx called religion 'the opium of the people' ... and even it this is true, in some respects, what is wrong with something that helps to safely ease people's psychological and psychic pain?
You may argue that this religious 'opium' is based on an illusion ... but then all Psychotropic medications prescribed for depression and other psychological pain, create degrees of positive feelings and appropriate 'illusions' ... indeed that is their prime mechanism of functionality.

Obviously you have thought about this, and you seem to accept a grain or two of truth here too?
Marx was a smart guy, and he was quite right about that. Religion does help people to endure suffering. But by doing so, it sometimes (perhaps inadvertently) keeps them languishing in that situation, instead of seeking real ways to improve their lot.
You'l notice though, that I am not saying there is anything wrong, as such, with using religion to comfort people. It is one of the few beneficial uses of religion. It would however be wrong to use it instead of seeking other solutions.

yoganinja

Interesting that independent research from Trinity shows what many people were saying about the "best practice" GMGY programme parents, principals teachers didn't find it a workable approach and children don't like to be separated on basis of religion in class

http://www.tcd.ie/news_events/articles/community-national-schools-research-shows-pupils-don-t-want-to-be-separated/7937?utm_content=buffer37487&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer#.WUvsWBTCtKw.twitter

yoganinja

Interesting that independent research from Trinity shows what many people were saying about the "best practice" GMGY programme parents, principals teachers didn't find it a workable approach and children don't like to be separated on basis of religion in class

http://www.tcd.ie/news_events/articles/community-national-schools-research-shows-pupils-don-t-want-to-be-separated/7937?utm_content=buffer37487&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer#.WUvsWBTCtKw.twitter

J C

yoganinja wrote: »

Interesting that independent research from Trinity shows what many people were saying about the "best practice" GMGY programme parents, principals teachers didn't find it a workable approach and children don't like to be separated on basis of religion in class

http://www.tcd.ie/news_events/articles/community-national-schools-research-shows-pupils-don-t-want-to-be-separated/7937?utm_content=buffer37487&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer#.WUvsWBTCtKw.twitter

Then I'd suggest that they don't bother separating ... and in Church run schools, children of other religions and none should attend religion classes ... and learn about the dominant Judeo-Christian worldview shared by the vast majority of their fellow citizens ... and not be isolating themselves like some kind of sectarian 'stick in the mud'.

... alternatively, parents can decide to not do 'best practice', as found by Trinity College ... and separate their children from their fellow students on the basis of attending religion class ... or not ... or indeed on the basis of attending church-run schools ... or not.

It's not like the secularist and materialist worldview doesn't have ample opportunity to inculcate itself in all students via the curriculum for the remaining 90% of the school day anyway!!!
... only now it wants 100%.

It has been my experience that it is often, the very people who shout loudest about respecting diversity, are the very ones who disrespect Christianity ... and all it stands for ... go figure !!!

recedite

yoganinja wrote: »

Interesting that independent research from Trinity shows what many people were saying ...

http://www.tcd.ie/news_events/articles/community-national-schools-research-shows-pupils-don-t-want-to-be-separated/7937?utm_content=buffer37487&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer#.WUvsWBTCtKw.twitter

The study found that sacramental preparation has led to a perceived privileging of Catholic students over other groups in Community National Schools. The Community National Schools offer sacramental preparation for communion and confirmation within the school day. The amount of time dedicated to preparation differed throughout the schools, largely influenced by parish demands.

Not exactly rocket science though. This was the pre-condition set by the RCC before they would support the development of the CNC school model.

The big mistake was for the state (or Minister Bruton) to think that the permission/approval of RCC was necessary before setting up a new type of public/state school.

yoganinja

J C wrote: »

Then I'd suggest that they don't bother separating ... and in Church run schools, children of other religions and none should attend religion classes ... and learn about the dominant Judeo-Christian worldview shared by the vast majority of their fellow citizens ... and not be isolating themselves like some kind of sectarian 'stick in the mud'.

... alternatively, parents can decide to not do 'best practice', as found by Trinity College ... and separate their children from their fellow students on the basis of attending religion class ... or not ... or indeed on the basis of attending church-run schools ... or not.

It's not like the secularist and materialist worldview doesn't have ample opportunity to inculcate itself in all students via the curriculum for the remaining 90% of the school day anyway!!!
... only now it wants 100%.

It has been my experience that it is often, the very people who shout loudest about respecting diversity, are the very ones who disrespect Christianity ... and all it stands for ... go figure !!!

So respecting diversity in a "church run" school is to tell people to not be a "stick in the mud" and sit there for religion classes .........hhmmmm ok

yoganinja

Yup not rocket science - I'd go further and say it fits into the "no **** Sherlock" category, but good to see that it was validated by an external review of the "service users"

It shows that the initial raison d'etre for this model was only ever as an acceptable church-approved vehicle for divestment

recedite

yoganinja wrote: »

It shows that the initial raison d'etre for this model was only ever as an acceptable church-approved vehicle for divestment

And even at that, the state has been swindled because divestment never happened. The CNC schools are all brand new schools built by the state. Thus adding to the stock of religious/indoctrinating schools.

yoganinja

recedite wrote: »

And even at that, the state has been swindled because divestment never happened. The CNC schools are all brand new schools built by the state. Thus adding to the stock of religious/indoctrinating schools.

The new one in Killarney will be an existing school- it will be fascinating to see if this new one will adopt the now discredited original GMGY given it is an RC divestment