no sockets in bathroom

karloseqm

Hi , just wondering why Ireland and UK have no plugs in bathrooms and other EU countries have? If you tell me that's for safety reasons so why I have plug next to my sink in kitchen ? 😄

Tuco88

It shouldn't be right next to the sink, well at least with common sense away form it.

aido79

karloseqm wrote: »

Hi , just wondering why Ireland and UK have no plugs in bathrooms and other EU countries have? If you tell me that's for safety reasons so why I have plug next to my sink in kitchen ? 😄

How often do you use electrical appliances in the kitchen in your bare feet when the floor is wet?
There is more chance of this happening in a bathroom than a kitchen so that's one of the reasons for allowing them near a kitchen sink but not a bathroom sink. There are also different zones in a bathroom according to the regulations where sockets aren't allowed to be placed.

karloseqm

Sorry but that make no sense to be honest. They should change law you can make plug next to mirror to use dryer. If 200 million Europeans using plugs in bathrooms why Irish or English shouldn't? That's another stupid law not proof my anyone , I ask electrician to install and he told me that's dangerous. I can't agree with him

aido79

karloseqm wrote: »

Sorry but that make no sense to be honest. They should change law you can make plug next to mirror to use dryer. If 200 million Europeans using plugs in bathrooms why Irish or English shouldn't? That's another stupid law not proof my anyone , I ask electrician to install and he told me that's dangerous. I can't agree with him

Technically it's not a law..it's a regulation but it amounts to the same thing. It doesn't really matter if you agree with him or not...neither he nor any other electrician in Ireland will install the socket for you.

Sleeper12

aido79 wrote:

Technically it's not a law..it's a regulation but it amounts to the same thing. It doesn't really matter if you agree with him or not...neither he nor any other electrician in Ireland will install the socket for you.

Believe it or not I found one on the ceiling of a shower cubicle. This was scary enough but I then found that the 8.5kw shower was fed from this socket. I cut shower cable as short as possible so it couldn't be used & disconnected it from the socket. I can only hope that they got an electrician out to do it properly. I was happy enough that I had rendered it unworkable as best I could, not being an electrician myself

aido79

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Believe it or not I found one on the ceiling of a shower cubicle. This was scary enough but I then found that the 8.5kw shower was fed from this socket. I cut shower cable as short as possible so it couldn't be used & disconnected it from the socket. I can only hope that they got an electrician out to do it properly. I was happy enough that I had rendered it unworkable as best I could, not being an electrician myself

It's amazing what people will try to do to save money. I actually wouldn't be against allowing sockets in bathrooms in the right places but what you describe is just plain dangerous and you were right to disconnect it. I assume the socket wasn't fed from a separate rcbo either?

cursai

aido79 wrote: »

Technically it's not a law..it's a regulation but it amounts to the same thing. It doesn't really matter if you agree with him or not...neither he nor any other electrician in Ireland will install the socket for you.

i got one installed. One of the shaver 2 prong ones. Its above the sink to the left.

aido79

cursai wrote: »

i got one installed. One of the shaver 2 prong ones. Its above the sink to the left.

These are allowed. They use an isolating transformer so you can't get a shock from it.

rorymcgrory

I installed a double plug in my bathroom. One for razor /tooth brush charger and one for a music player.

exaisle

cursai wrote: »

i got one installed. One of the shaver 2 prong ones. Its above the sink to the left.

That's not the same as a standard socket. As far as I know, the amount of current that you can draw from one of these is around 200mA....enough to run an electric razor but not enough to run a hair dryer....

BTW I'm open to correction by any electricians here!!

cursai

aido79 wrote: »

These are allowed. They use an isolating transformer so you can't get a shock from it.

Couldn't live without it. For shaving and for Bluetooth waterproof speaker. Luxury!!!

Sleeper12

aido79 wrote:

It's amazing what people will try to do to save money. I actually wouldn't be against allowing sockets in bathrooms in the right places but what you describe is just plain dangerous and you were right to disconnect it. I assume the socket wasn't fed from a separate rcbo either?

It was on a chain of sockets. Only 2.5 t&e feeding the socket that was feeding the shower. It was the only time I've deliberately sabotaged a shower like that. I don't think I would have been legally liable if I left it & something bad happened but I wouldn't have been able to sleep at night thinking something dangerous would happen.

gctest50

and how else would you plug in the washing machine ?

rorymcgrory

gctest50 wrote: »

and how else would you plug in the washing machine ?

Lol. That's like a room out of Borat. Where did you pull that picture from?

gctest50

exaisle wrote: »

That's not the same as a standard socket. As far as I know, the amount of current that you can draw from one of these is around 200mA....enough to run an electric razor but not enough to run a hair dryer....

BTW I'm open to correction by any electricians here!!

Currents around 100 to 200mA will probably kill you - heart goes into fibrillationz and you die

A proper good one above 200mA and it will just clamp up and you'll be grand - bar the burns and stopping breathing maybe

2011

exaisle wrote: »

That's not the same as a standard socket. As far as I know, the amount of current that you can draw from one of these is around 200mA....enough to run an electric razor but not enough to run a hair dryer....

BTW I'm open to correction by any electricians here!!

They are generally around 20 VA. These units have a deliberately limited output so they simply would not have enough power to push 200 mA through a person.

To get a shock from the output of one of these someone would have to be in contact with both outputs at the same time.

ozt9vdujny3srf

Never in a home environment, but I have seen a couple of instances of wall mounted hair driers in bathrooms in Swimming Pools / Work Changing facilities. Maybe it's possible to do this in Ireland?

2011

Saylor Dead Schoolroom wrote: »

Never in a home environment, but I have seen a couple of instances of wall mounted hair driers in bathrooms in Swimming Pools / Work Changing facilities. Maybe it's possible to do this in Ireland?

Yes, once the equipment is suitably rated for the zone that it is installed in and properly installed.

aido79

Sleeper12 wrote: »

It was on a chain of sockets. Only 2.5 t&e feeding the socket that was feeding the shower. It was the only time I've deliberately sabotaged a shower like that. I don't think I would have been legally liable if I left it & something bad happened but I wouldn't have been able to sleep at night thinking something dangerous would happen.

That's a bit scary! It's exactly why people shouldn't mess with electricity.

eeguy

2011 wrote: »

Yes, once the equipment is suitably rated for the zone that it is installed in and properly installed.

That's a special case. Bathroom lighting has a specific rating too.

2011

eeguy wrote: »

That's a special case. Bathroom lighting has a specific rating too.

I never suggested otherwise

mikewest

exaisle wrote: »

That's not the same as a standard socket. As far as I know, the amount of current that you can draw from one of these is around 200mA....enough to run an electric razor but not enough to run a hair dryer....

BTW I'm open to correction by any electricians here!!

The thinking behind this is why so many people feel that the regulations here and the UK around wet room/bathroom wiring are just stupid.

200mA is enough to kill you twice over and leave change in fact 60mA can be enough hence the reason for the upper rating available on a RCD/RCBO/GFCI being 30mA for life injury protection.

If you have a RCD/RCBO/GFCI installed which you must have according to the same regulations then the "protection" offered by the shaver socket is redundant as the circuit would trip at a lower amperage than the max available from the isolating transformer in the event of a ground fault (or using the socket with a damaged or faulty implement while standing on a wet floor in bare feet).

It is a legacy regulation which no longer makes sense in a new correctly installed situation, however getting it changed will probably never happen.

eeguy

mikewest wrote: »

The thinking behind this is why so many people feel that the regulations here and the UK around wet room/bathroom wiring are just stupid.

200mA is enough to kill you twice over and leave change in fact 60mA can be enough hence the reason for the upper rating available on a RCD/RCBO/GFCI being 30mA for life injury protection.

the idea with the isolated transformer is there is no return path to ground. So in theory you should be able to touch the live wire without a shock. That's why it's used in high humidity, wet environments.

In real life there's a chance for earth leakage, but the resistances involved should limit current flow to a less than lethal value.

Point being, don't touch the live.

Idbatterim

lads just a quick question, those shaver sockets, do new hotels still install them or are they redundant?

ninja 12

gctest50 wrote: »

and how else would you plug in the washing machine ?

Fairly common in Denmark .

My fathers place had the washing machine in the bathroom beside the shower .

Not sure I'd want it running if using the shower though

Steve

2011 wrote: »

They are generally around 20 VA. These units have a deliberately limited output so they simply would not have enough power to push 200 mA through a person.

To get a shock from the output of one of these someone would have to be in contact with both outputs at the same time.

They are also CTE which limits the voltage.

Interesting that 20VA @ 120V can deliver 166mA, this is enough to kill (from what I was told in college).

ptogher14

aido79 wrote: »

Technically it's not a law..it's a regulation but it amounts to the same thing. It doesn't really matter if you agree with him or not...neither he nor any other electrician in Ireland will install the socket for you.

Aido can you post a link to the reg stating you can't install a socket in a bathroom?

punisher5112

ptogher14 wrote: »

Aido can you post a link to the reg stating you can't install a socket in a bathroom?

You could but it would want to be one big bathroom.

Steve

ptogher14 wrote: »

Aido can you post a link to the reg stating you can't install a socket in a bathroom?

ETCI regs aren't available anywhere online AFAIK.

0lddog

rorymcgrory wrote: »

Lol. That's like a room out of Borat. Where did you pull that picture from?

There is nothing Lol about this at all.

It is the norm in most of Europe that small to mid size apartments have washing machines located in the bathroom.

In my experience it is a good location for same

aliveandkicking

Apologies if this is a dumb question or not worded correctly (no electrical knowledge) but wondering if there is anything in the regs preventing the installation of a washing machine in a bathroom if it was hardwired to the mains with an isolation swith rather than plugged in via a socket? Much the same way something like a jacuzzi bath is wired in a bathroom?

ptogher14

punisher5112 wrote: »

You could but it would want to be one big bathroom.

My point exactly. There isn't a regulation stating you can't put a socket in a bathroom

Tuco88

Steve wrote: »

2011 wrote: »

They are generally around 20 VA. These units have a deliberately limited output so they simply would not have enough power to push 200 mA through a person.

To get a shock from the output of one of these someone would have to be in contact with both outputs at the same time.

They are also CTE which limits the voltage.

Interesting that 20VA @ 120V can deliver 166mA, this is enough to kill (from what I was told in college).

I don't think they are a C.T.E traffo, I'm pretty sure they are an isolated traffo (no secondary earth) you might be thinking of the 110v site traffo.

Steve

Tuco88 wrote: »

I don't think they are a C.T.E traffo, I'm pretty sure they are an isolated traffo (no secondary earth) you might be thinking of the 110v site traffo.

Yeah, actually that makes more sense.

ptogher14

The regs don't state you can't a socket in a bathroom or any electrical device for that matter. They can't be within a certain range of a sink, shower etc. There's different zones. You could have an IP rated socket closer to a sink than a standard socket.

Take a toilet block in an office. They'll have hand dryers Automatic towel dispensers etc. All in a bathroom but not within a zone

Steve

ptogher14 wrote: »

The regs don't state you can't a socket in a bathroom or any electrical device for that matter. They can't be within a certain range of a sink, shower etc. There's different zones. You could have an IP rated socket closer to a sink than a standard socket.

Take a toilet block in an office. They'll have hand dryers Automatic towel dispensers etc. All in a bathroom but not within a zone

If you know the regs so well, why did you ask for a link earlier?

2011

Tuco88 wrote: »

I don't think they are a C.T.E traffo, I'm pretty sure they are an isolated traffo (no secondary earth) you might be thinking of the 110v site traffo.

Exactly, this is why it is necessary to make contact with both conductors n the output side of the transformer in order to get a shock.

ptogher14

Steve wrote: »

If you know the regs so well, why did you ask for a link earlier?

I was trying to make a point to aido to stop and think about it rather than just tell him he's wrong. It can be about how you interpret the regs. A lot of people including sparks are under the impression you can't install an electrical point in a bathroom when that's not a case. It came up at work recently, a M+E engineer was suggesting a socket could not be installed in a cleaners stores.

Sometimes you just need to stop and think about. I was not looking for argument

Steve

ptogher14 wrote: »

I was trying to make a point to aido to stop and think about it rather than just tell him he's wrong. It can be about how you interpret the regs. A lot of people including sparks are under the impression you can't install an electrical point in a bathroom when that's not a case. It came up at work recently, a M+E engineer was suggesting a socket could not be installed in a cleaners stores.

Sometimes you just need to stop and think about. I was not looking for argument

Fair enough, It's not exactly fair to ask people to abide by regulations prescribed by law when said regulations are not actually available for all to see.

ptogher14

The regs are available to purchase by anybody. Anybody installing a socket should have a copy of them or at least be familiar with them. Again a lot of sparks arent.

I think an app version to purchase would be very handy.

Steve

Any version that doesn't cost €600 or whatever it is now would be great.

xl500

mikewest wrote: »

The thinking behind this is why so many people feel that the regulations here and the UK around wet room/bathroom wiring are just stupid.

200mA is enough to kill you twice over and leave change in fact 60mA can be enough hence the reason for the upper rating available on a RCD/RCBO/GFCI being 30mA for life injury protection.

If you have a RCD/RCBO/GFCI installed which you must have according to the same regulations then the "protection" offered by the shaver socket is redundant as the circuit would trip at a lower amperage than the max available from the isolating transformer in the event of a ground fault (or using the socket with a damaged or faulty implement while standing on a wet floor in bare feet).

It is a legacy regulation which no longer makes sense in a new correctly installed situation, however getting it changed will probably never happen.

RCBO On Primary of Isolating Trafo Will not Pick up Earth Fault on Secondary thats the Whole Point its isolated the Secondary is a completely seperate circuit ie you can ground either secondary and the RCBO Will not trip of course if you Ground Both you will Short Circuit

aido79

ptogher14 wrote: »

I was trying to make a point to aido to stop and think about it rather than just tell him he's wrong. It can be about how you interpret the regs. A lot of people including sparks are under the impression you can't install an electrical point in a bathroom when that's not a case. It came up at work recently, a M+E engineer was suggesting a socket could not be installed in a cleaners stores.

Sometimes you just need to stop and think about. I was not looking for argument

ptogher14 wrote: »

The regs are available to purchase by anybody. Anybody installing a socket should have a copy of them or at least be familiar with them. Again a lot of sparks arent.

I think an app version to purchase would be very handy.

Fair enough but would I be right in saying that in an average bathroom in Ireland it would not be possible to install a socket due to size limitations and proximity to zones where electrical equipment is not allowed?

It's about 10 years since I've seen a copy of the ETCI regs so I would not be familiar with them.

BlinkingLights

This is a UK inspired regulation though. Britain was very late in adopting universal RCDs on sockets. They were more common here and on the continent much earlier than the UK which only adopted them quite recently.

allthedoyles

Special precautions are necessary in the bathroom because the wet surroundings pose a greater risk of electric shock than anywhere else in the house. For this reason, no sockets other than specially designed shaver outlets are allowed in bathrooms.
​
Portable appliances such as hairdryers, radios or heaters must not be used in the bathroom, even if plugged in outside the bathroom.

https://www.esbnetworks.ie/staying-safe/safety-at-home/bathroom-safety-tips

Stravos Murphy

I must remove my TV from my bathroom in light of above.

Steve

Some info here on zones:

http://www.reci.ie/Portals/0/27594a_RECIx.pdf

Tuco88

ptogher14 wrote: »

The regs don't state you can't a socket in a bathroom or any electrical device for that matter. They can't be within a certain range of a sink, shower etc. There's different zones. You could have an IP rated socket closer to a sink than a standard socket.

Take a toilet block in an office. They'll have hand dryers Automatic towel dispensers etc. All in a bathroom but not within a zone

Putting a IP socket close to a sink makes no real sence imo, what's the point? I can still plug my toaster into it and try to dry the dishes in it.

No socket (not a shaver) in a bathroom is just plan common sence and good practice. If a child decided to plug a radio into it next to a sink or bath is it that handy?

Tuco88

ptogher14 wrote: »

The regs don't state you can't a socket in a bathroom or any electrical device for that matter. They can't be within a certain range of a sink, shower etc. There's different zones. You could have an IP rated socket closer to a sink than a standard socket.

Take a toilet block in an office. They'll have hand dryers Automatic towel dispensers etc. All in a bathroom but not within a zone

Putting a IP socket close to a sink makes no real sence imo, what's the point? I can still plug my toaster into it and try to dry the dishes in it.

No socket (not a shaver) in a bathroom is just plan common sence and good practice. If a child decided to plug a radio into it next to a sink or bath is it that handy?

ptogher14

Yes aido you'd be correct there.