Skerries Development

martinn123

I know we have a Planning Thread, but this one probably deserves its own.

A plan to build a €50m development on a 25-acre site in north county Dublin that will include 24 houses, a luxury hotel and coastal park and walkway has been given the green light by planners.

http://www.independent.ie/business/50m-development-in-north-dublin-gets-the-goahead-35387254.html

Sound like a great addition to Skerries, not to mention, Jobs, Tourism etc.

Just one question, do I remember correctly damage to the cliffs a few years ago during a bad storm ??

Maybe they need a wall, like Doonbeg;)

Check it out here
http://www.holmpatrickcove.com/

McAlban

Planning Details

cruizer101

Looks lovely, Skerries may finally get a pool
Re cliff erosion, would be bit worried about that myself, although I'm sure must have been considered and the buildings are all back from the cliff.

The Hill Billy

It seems like the hotel will be fairly upmarket, as will the houses. It makes me wonder if the pool facilities will be priced fairly high too.

The reality of the 'community' aspect to this development is still an open question for me.

I hope it pans out well for both the Brannigans & the community.

cbreeze

McAlban wrote: »

Planning Details

Its under appeal now to an Bord Pleanala:(

cbreeze

Unfortunately the project has been rejected by An Bord Pleanala. So still no pool for Rush-Skerries-Lusk-Loughshinney-Balbriggan.

Rashers72

Can they appeal the An Bord Pleanala decision? I hope so. Huge disappointment for all concerned.

The Hill Billy

Any idea why it was rejected? Can applicants submit revised plans?

Unshelved

Details here - http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/247928.htm

Next step - if they want to take it - is a judicial review.

Hamilton Hiller

Crazy the development didnt get the go ahead . Watch when Aldi lodges its plans for Skerries . There will be 50 times more objections and it will get the go ahead

Wishbone Ash

Hamilton Hiller wrote: »

.... Watch when Aldi lodges its plans for Skerries . There will be 50 times more objections and it will get the go ahead

It's highly unlikely that Aldi will seek planning permission for a development on a scenic coastal edge location so it's not a fair comparison.

LeoB

Skerries might need a hotel but I would have thought much closer to the town. Cant see a swimming pool in it been big to serve the local community

Few heavy hitters objecting from what I hear.

shesty

I read through some of the objections and i actually thought they were very fair.They were mainly to do with access to the site, and the fact that the proposed entrance was an agricultural entrance where they were proposing to stick traffic lights with no visibility, and at a dangerous location in terms of traffic coming over the hill from Rush, were quite justified.There was also the fact that Fingal have previously refused planning for a number of one-off houses in that same location over the last 15 -20 years......

The pool situation annoys me, Fingal's policy is actually to let private industry cater for the pool needs for the residents of Fingal.It's a terrible policy, total handwashing of any responsibility by Fingal and meaning that we all have to pay over the odds for intermittent access to small hotel or gym pools (bar a couple of odd bigger ones).We badly need a pool in this area but I don't think that hotel was the answer to the problem.

LeoB

shesty wrote: »

I read through some of the objections and i actually thought they were very fair.They were mainly to do with access to the site, and the fact that the proposed entrance was an agricultural entrance where they were proposing to stick traffic lights with no visibility, and at a dangerous location in terms of traffic coming over the hill from Rush, were quite justified.There was also the fact that Fingal have previously refused planning for a number of one-off houses in that same location over the last 15 -20 years......

The pool situation annoys me, Fingal's policy is actually to let private industry cater for the pool needs for the residents of Fingal.It's a terrible policy, total handwashing of any responsibility by Fingal and meaning that we all have to pay over the odds for intermittent access to small hotel or gym pools (bar a couple of odd bigger ones).We badly need a pool in this area but I don't think that hotel was the answer to the problem.

Would agree with your post especially access to the site.

The pool situation is a joke and I dont think they work in private ownership. A public pool with allocated hours for schools etc is a better option. I think.

There was previous talk of a pool in Rush.I was tentatively approached for a site and was open to it been put on table. There was a site and hefty donation once it was built in Rush. When the site was moved the offer was withdrawn. Gael scoil Ros Eó are now on the site.

Must inquire about that.

tvr

The objections and decisions were fair. The road is a death trap as well.

In my opinion the hotel was a red herring to be honest given the amount of hotels, B&B which have failed in the town. You also had planning for a big hotel in Milverton just outside the town lapse as well. The big risk if planning was approved was the hotel being snapped up as a refugee reception facility.

Given the population of Skerries, Rush and Lusk questions have to be asked as to why there is still no swimming pool/ large gym facility etc.

cbreeze

Its beyond a joke that the population of this part of Fingal (Rush, Loughshinney, Lusk, Skerries, Barnageera, Balbriggan) have to depend on the generosity of the developers to access a swimming pool which was to have been available for several hours a day.

I recall lot of work and lobbying went into trying to get a swimming pool built on a site near the train station in Skerries - this would have been accessible by rail and bus but it never materialised. I think the the pool was pulled from Skerries and was to be located somewhere outside Balbriggan. I could be wrong in this because it is a vague recollection.

The population of this area has further increased since then and there is a real and pressing need for a pool. If the many hundreds of children who attended the water safety week in Skerries in August is any guide then Fingal County Council really needs to think a bit harder about its priorities for the region! Are the takings from the property tax being pumped into the many 16 and 17 D registered vans and trucks we see on the roads hereabouts?

shesty

Fingal are simply not interested in taking on responsibility of a swimming pool.Nearest public pools are within DCC limits.Their policy is to let private operators fill the gap.
The model used in Portmarnock sports and leisure centre is a good one, I think it's worth investigating.
Leo, would you have any more detail on that?I"d be very interested in hearing about it.

Hamilton Hiller

A very easy solution for a swimming pool for Skerries would be a total overhaul of the community centre and surrounding area . There has been no upgrading of the facilities since it was built prob 30 years now . Extend the building back towards the tennis courts and have the pool there and extra indoor area . Relocate the tennis courts onto the the site of the lawn bowls area . There is a heap of space not being used properly around the area . The scouts den could be accomadated inside the extended area where the pool would be . You could fit another same sized community centre directly on the green area and tennis courts behind the existing community centre .

Rashers72

Went for a walk on the site 2 weeks ago. Great location. Fully get what everyone is saying about FCC should build a pool, but I doubt any council in Ireland is going to build a new pool going forward. Simply too costly. Having a private developer build a very small hotel complex with a pool and 20 odd houses well recessed is a trade off I think is well worth it. This development will give some high quality training pitches over to the community, which are well needed and again which FCC simply don't have the funds to create in the location that is needed. I was surprised at how accessible the site is from the likes of C+T's supermarket, or the Rugby club. But I think that aspect is linked to a late change, giving additional access, that may not have been in the original plan. Not sure if that will be enough to put in a revised planning application, but should address a lot of the access questions.
I for one am fully supportive of this proposal. Of course I would like the hotel and pool in the centre of Skerries, but I just don't think there is any site close enough that is big enough.
The views from this particular site will be huge plus, and should make the hotel a success which will help cross subsidise the pool, and keep the overall site well maintained. Plus a good few jobs for locals, in a town where the vast majority of workers have to travel along way from each day to get employment.
In the end if this does not go ahead, I doubt we will see Skerries get a pool within the next 10 years. PS - I was one of those individuals who contributed to the last time someone tried to build a pool in Skerries, about 15 years ago. Doubt I'll ever get any return on that investment!
PS - I doubt FCC own any of those 16D or 171D vans we see them in. I assume they are all leased, so we will see then all switched again in 2-3 years. I personally think FCC generally do a great job, but I don't want them cutting millions from their normal budget to build a pool, when a private developer will do it at no cost. And I think every other council in Ireland has the same approach in 2017. Open to correction though....

LeoB

shesty wrote: »

The model used in Portmarnock sports and leisure centre is a good one, I think it's worth investigating.
Leo, would you have any more detail on that?I"d be very interested in hearing about it.

Yes I have memories of it ok. A site was available at the time on Park road in Rush at St. Maurs G.A.A club. The club were prepared to give the site for a juvenile playing pitch elsewhere in the town, no problems there. St. Maurs would have had no hand act or part in running the pool. However some were not in favour.
There was also a local person who was putting a substantial 6 figure sum towards the cost of the pool, once it was in Rush as we were overlooked for any development and most facilities. The offer was withdrawn when the site of the pool was moved to Skerries. Dont know what the politics of the thing were at the time but a lot of people put a lot of time and effort into the project in Rush and Skerries. People in Rush and Skerries are still annoyed it fizzeled out but I think had they gone with the site in St. Maurs we would now have a pool.
When I was chairman of St. Maurs I gave the site earmarked for the pool to Gael scoil Rós Eó and they are still there.
I think this is still the best location for it. Fingal CC wont get involved with building a swimming pool. As has been stated they will happily let a developer build it. The biggest cost I believe is maintaining it though.
If it is built as part of Hotel what use will locals get out of it? What will it cost for an hour with a few kids? What happens if the hotel is full of guests and they want to use the same time as a group of kids have it booked? If I was away with my wife for a weekend I wouldn't want a group of kids coming in to the pool.

LeoB

Rashers72 wrote: »

Went for a walk on the site 2 weeks ago. Great location. Fully get what everyone is saying about FCC should build a pool, but I doubt any council in Ireland is going to build a new pool going forward. Simply too costly. Having a private developer build a very small hotel complex with a pool and 20 odd houses well recessed is a trade off I think is well worth it. This development will give some high quality training pitches over to the community, which are well needed and again which FCC simply don't have the funds to create in the location that is needed. I was surprised at how accessible the site is from the likes of C+T's supermarket, or the Rugby club. But I think that aspect is linked to a late change, giving additional access, that may not have been in the original plan. Not sure if that will be enough to put in a revised planning application, but should address a lot of the access questions.
I for one am fully supportive of this proposal. Of course I would like the hotel and pool in the centre of Skerries, but I just don't think there is any site close enough that is big enough.
The views from this particular site will be huge plus, and should make the hotel a success which will help cross subsidise the pool, and keep the overall site well maintained. Plus a good few jobs for locals, in a town where the vast majority of workers have to travel along way from each day to get employment.
In the end if this does not go ahead, I doubt we will see Skerries get a pool within the next 10 years. PS - I was one of those individuals who contributed to the last time someone tried to build a pool in Skerries, about 15 years ago. Doubt I'll ever get any return on that investment!
PS - I doubt FCC own any of those 16D or 171D vans we see them in. I assume they are all leased, so we will see then all switched again in 2-3 years. I personally think FCC generally do a great job, but I don't want them cutting millions from their normal budget to build a pool, when a private developer will do it at no cost. And I think every other council in Ireland has the same approach in 2017. Open to correction though....

I thought most jobs in the hotel industry were low paid jobs taken up by non-nationals. Seems most staff I met in a few hotels this year were non-national. I could be very wrong here (again)

I would prefer if the hotel was in centre of Skerries. Is there really need for a pool? I am not sure there is from speaking to a few Skerries people over the last few weeks. I was surprised as quite a few were opposed to it

Think most vans are leased now. I see all the An Post vans now with WH reg numbers.

Wishbone Ash

LeoB wrote: »

I thought most jobs in the hotel industry were low paid jobs taken up by non-nationals.

Took the words out of my mouth Leo - it's almost a novelty now to find an Irish person working in a hotel.

LeoB wrote:

...Is there really need for a pool?

This has been on my mind for a while now. Personally I'm biased as I hate swimming and any swiming related activities but, during my 25 years living in NCD, I haven't heard a single person (in the real world) looking for a swimming pool. I could somewhat understand it if Skerries was 200 miles inland but, FFS it's on the coast!

tringle

I remember the swimming pool in Skerries, right on the beachfront and always full so being on the coast is no reason not to have a pool. Before it was reopened I used to get a bus every Saturday to Gormanstown to go swimming. Is the airport now the nearest pool to skerries. I now live in rural Ireland, middle of nowhere and I am only a 5 minute drive from a pool that I use every day. In fact we have 2 pools next door to each other...the hotel leisure centre and the council leisure centre. If rural Ireland can do it then no excuse for FCC

rushfan

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Took the words out of my mouth Leo - it's almost a novelty now to find an Irish person working in a hotel.

I think you have to be abroad nowadays to find said Irish person, NYC, Boston, etc

cruizer101

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

during my 25 years living in NCD, I haven't heard a single person (in the real world) looking for a swimming pool. I could somewhat understand it if Skerries was 200 miles inland but, FFS it's on the coast!

Really? The vast majority of people I know in skerries and Balbriggan would love to have a pool nearby. Even to have a proper one in swords would be good. Saying it's beside the sea is a moot point given the weather in Ireland.
In general I think fingal cc do a decent enough job but this is one area they seriously need to look at.

shesty

I cannot imagine why anyone would be opposed to a pool in a town.
I have lived in NCD my whole life and now have kids- a public pool would be a great facility be it in Rush or Skerries or Balbriggan.The nearest pool.is Energie fitness swords which has a 50eur/month membership fee.After that it's ALSAA or Sportslink in Santry.Or Gormanston in the opposite direction.
Having been abroad quite a bit to small towns im the Austrian and French Alps, where many small towns have a public pool it is a great amenity to have.And swimming is a life skill....whether you like it or not every kid should at least have the opportunity to learn, and to access a comunity pool.

pinkbear

tvr wrote: »

The objections and decisions were fair. The road is a death trap as well.

In my opinion the hotel was a red herring to be honest given the amount of hotels, B&B which have failed in the town. You also had planning for a big hotel in Milverton just outside the town lapse as well. The big risk if planning was approved was the hotel being snapped up as a refugee reception facility.

Given the population of Skerries, Rush and Lusk questions have to be asked as to why there is still no swimming pool/ large gym facility etc.

Snapped up as a refugee reception facility??!! Where on earth did you hear this? That's the craziest thing I've heard yet about this development. The (9) NIMBY objectors must be clutching at straws if that's the rubbish they are pedalling. When this development is built, and I have no doubt it will be, their private sea views will be open to all, and they don't like it. Tell you what.... talk to the developers directly.... you can easily contact them via their website www.holmpatrickcove.com.... and ask them yourself about the refugee facility theory. I'm sure they'll put your mind at rest. Or ask the 2500 people who have signed the petition for this to go ahead, or any of the local councillors or politicians who support this development, or Bord Failte Ireland who supported it, or any of the community groups who have assessed it from their viewpoint and written to support it (e.g. the Skerries Community Association, Skerries Tidy Towns, every single sports group in the town, the Soundwaves Festival, the mid Summer Festival, Skerries Tourism, the Skerries Swimming Club, all the scouts groups, the Skerries Kayakers, the Frosties and more). The developers are a large local family, with hundreds of relations and connections in the town..... they are not likely to build 24 luxury houses and a beautiful new hotel in the most stunning location in NCD, to have it "snapped up as a refugee reception facility".

cbreeze

cruizer101 wrote: »

Really? The vast majority of people I know in skerries and Balbriggan would love to have a pool nearby. Even to have a proper one in swords would be good. Saying it's beside the sea is a moot point given the weather in Ireland.
In general I think fingal cc do a decent enough job but this is one area they seriously need to look at.

Er, sometimes I would like to go for a swim in the middle of winter without succumbing to hypothermia. How can I manage that without access to a warm, heated pool? ?????????????????????????????

Hamilton Hiller

Would this development of a hotel and leisure facility be put forward on its own ?

Rashers72

I imagine they need the profit from the 20 odd houses to fund the building of the hotel and pool - probably normal enough approach these days.

Hamilton Hiller

If you take 24 houses with 3 cars per house . Mam Dad and let's say the grown up kids car ... that is 72 cars a day going out and back just in one journey . We all know we have to go up and down the road multiple times in a day . Then the occupancy of a successful hotel , we say 30 cars for this . Then the leisure facility and I'd be kind to say 50 cars a day . Then throw in your training pitches and we can say 20 cars a day using them . Then staff cars , laundry trucks , food trucks(multiple) , waste trucks , keg trucks , maintenance trucks . So all in all before trucks even get involved you have 200 cars a day making single journeys in and out of that gateway . That road is not built for the traffic that this hotel will generate

pinkbear

The reasons why it was rejected have not been mentioned here. All elements of the road and access have stood up to the scrutiny of the Bord. All the objectors' complaints were pretty much ignored by Bord Planala. Here are the facts:

- The Bord claimed the a hotel is not permitted on Open Space lands.
This is true in general, however there was a specific objective in the Masterplan (which is allowed), which means that Fingal County Council voted to build in an exception to this rule. It is not clear why they ignored this.

- The Bord claimed it is "Rural" land.
But it is surrounded by 60 other houses, it has a continuous footpath to the town, public lighting, bus, gas, mains water, electricity. It is closer to the church than Skerries Point, An Claddagh, Barnageera Cover or Skerries Point, all of which are considered not rural.

- The Bord claimed it is visually intrusive.
It's actually barely visible from almost all of Skerries. It's not visually intrusive anywhere.

- The Bord says the land has a "Highly Sensitive Landscape Designation"
Every single part of Skerries has this designation!

- The Bord says that "Hotels should be located in towns"
Firstly Bord Failte wrote to support this hotel, and secondly, if hotels in the town was a priority, why was the Pier House allowed to be converted from a hotel to a private dwelling?

Hamilton Hiller

pinkbear wrote: »

Snapped up as a refugee reception facility??!! Where on earth did you hear this? That's the craziest thing I've heard yet about this development. The (9) NIMBY objectors must be clutching at straws if that's the rubbish they are pedalling. When this development is built, and I have no doubt it will be, their private sea views will be open to all, and they don't like it. Tell you what.... talk to the developers directly.... you can easily contact them via their website www.holmpatrickcove.com.... and ask them yourself about the refugee facility theory. I'm sure they'll put your mind at rest. Or ask the 2500 people who have signed the petition for this to go ahead, or any of the local councillors or politicians who support this development, or Bord Failte Ireland who supported it, or any of the community groups who have assessed it from their viewpoint and written to support it (e.g. the Skerries Community Association, Skerries Tidy Towns, every single sports group in the town, the Soundwaves Festival, the mid Summer Festival, Skerries Tourism, the Skerries Swimming Club, all the scouts groups, the Skerries Kayakers, the Frosties and more). The developers are a large local family, with hundreds of relations and connections in the town..... they are not likely to build 24 luxury houses and a beautiful new hotel in the most stunning location in NCD, to have it "snapped up as a refugee reception facility".

The funny thing about having 2.5k names on a petition... Anyone can lodge an objection when planning is submitted but at the same time people can lodge recommendations for planning applications so where were the 2500 people to sign recommendations when it was lodged ? I know many people and groups gave their support but nowhere near 2500 . Also if the leisure facility is gonna be leased out to a group to run then their main aim will be to make
Money & nobody can say wether there will be an annual fee , what will be the pricing structure etc . The hotel side is being franchised out to a group aswell so basically it is gonna build the facility and the hotel and sell it out to the highest bidder . Yes the town will get a pool and a hotel but at what price . Nobody knows what way the leases or agreements will be made to whoever would take over the running of the hotel or facility. If the operators come in and pay and build the hotel and facility themselves then all that is left is to build is 24 houses with a retail price of between 1m-1.5m . Making the grand total for property on the site in the region of 24 million to 36 million . Take away the cost per unit of 300-500k euro and that is being very generous so 3.6m to 5m euro . There is a hell of a lot of money to be made from the development and even if the complex was built and paid for by the developer at a cost of 5m euro then you will have a costing of 10 million - 5 million for houses and 5 million for the hotel and lets throw down another 10 million for land , fees and what ever else you want and 10 million is some heap of money . We are now sitting at 20 million euro costings and then we said 24-36m in house sales . That leaves us with anywhere in the region of 4m-16m profit plus the income on the rental of the hotel and facility if it's built to be franchised out . So yea there is a lot to be gained by having a pool and hotel in Skerries .

Don't get me wrong I'd love to see and have the facility in Skerries

pinkbear

Lots of people wrote in letters of support at various times, but you're right, it was hundreds of people rather than thousands. It's not in people's nature to actively go out to support something, and I suppose most people assumed it would pass. Also, it was voted on 3 times by Fingal County Council, and passed easily each time.

I understand all the points you make, and if it does pass, the developers will be very wealthy I agree, and I know it may not be the amazing facility that we hope for due to hotel and pool management. HOWEVER.... housing estates go up all the time, often with hundreds of houses (e.g. Barnageera Cove and BallyGossan Park), offering nothing back to the community. This proposal I think is quite unique because in return for just 24 houses, the community gets:
- a hotel
- a pool and leisure centre
- and extra 2km added to the coastal walkway
- 2 playing pitches for under 10's
- the finest eco housing in Europe brought into Ireland for the first time
- up to 80 jobs created locally

To be honest I've never come across an estate anywhere that has as much payback as this one. Perhaps I'm naive, but calculating the developers' profit is not a good enough reason for anyone not to support it, and worrying about who might take over the hotel is not a good enough reason to not support it. Some day that land is going to be developed anyway, whether next year or in ten years time. In my opinion, this is a very good deal for the town.

tvr

pinkbear wrote: »

Some day that land is going to be developed anyway, whether next year or in ten years time. In my opinion, this is a very good deal for the town.

In my opinion, it won't be. It is just not the right location. That is why we have a planning process.

If the developers feel so passionately about it, then appeal the BP decision to High Court for review but I can see them failing with that as well.

I am assuming that is why they haven't done so.

Dizzyblonde

tvr your photo isn't showing. Maybe try uploading it with Postimage?

Wishbone Ash

pinkbear wrote: »

....- The Bord says that "Hotels should be located in towns"...


... if hotels in the town was a priority, why was the Pier House allowed to be converted from a hotel to a private dwelling?

Saying hotels should be located in towns is not the same as saying a town should have a hotel. In other words, if a hotel is to be built, it must be in a town but it doesn't mean the town needs a hotel.

LeoB

pinkbear wrote: »

Lots of people wrote in letters of support at various times, but you're right, it was hundreds of people rather than thousands. It's not in people's nature to actively go out to support something, and I suppose most people assumed it would pass. Also, it was voted on 3 times by Fingal County Council, and passed easily each time.

I understand all the points you make, and if it does pass, the developers will be very wealthy I agree, and I know it may not be the amazing facility that we hope for due to hotel and pool management. HOWEVER.... housing estates go up all the time, often with hundreds of houses (e.g. Barnageera Cove and BallyGossan Park), offering nothing back to the community. This proposal I think is quite unique because in return for just 24 houses, the community gets:
- a hotel
- a pool and leisure centre
- and extra 2km added to the coastal walkway
- 2 playing pitches for under 10's
- the finest eco housing in Europe brought into Ireland for the first time
- up to 80 jobs created locally

To be honest I've never come across an estate anywhere that has as much payback as this one. Perhaps I'm naive, but calculating the developers' profit is not a good enough reason for anyone not to support it, and worrying about who might take over the hotel is not a good enough reason to not support it. Some day that land is going to be developed anyway, whether next year or in ten years time. In my opinion, this is a very good deal for the town.

It is the location that is the problem not the development itself. I spoke to a few in Skerries yesterday and they were opposed to the location. The walkway is there anyway and part of an overall fingal coastal walkway.
To say Skerries is getting big payback is not really accurate until we see how much it will cost to bring our kids a swim, or how many "locals" work there. As I stated before if I was away for a few days with MrsB I would not want to see a heap of kids coming into the pool mid morning or in the afternoon after been out for a day walking/sightseeing. It doesnt sit right with me this type of upmarket hotel providing a pool for the use of the public.

Could the houses and hotel be on different sites? What I mean here is I personally prefer a hotel in parkland setting, ie up past Golf club or up near the Shady lane. The luxury houses could still be built to fund the hotel on a different site. The developer still gets the profit from the houses to fund the hotel development.

Unshelved

There was a large hotel and country club development planned for the Shady Lane / Milverton area some time ago - with Treasury Holdings. The recession got in the way and I've no idea where it stands now - https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/treasury-to-press-ahead-with-its-skerries-project-26677574.html

shesty

Probably with NAMA.In that black hole :-)

Hamilton Hiller

Milverton site was massive 427 acres . This was broken down into several lots and sold off . I know a farmer from the midlands bought out some of the land , Donnelly fruit and veg were rumoured to have bought another parcel of land . There was also a large cultivation of "herb" been grown in large farm outbuildings over past Milverton school .