Getting out of Sucklers, options next?

Feckoffcup

Run about 25 cows on 70 acres and ai them, currently working a 9 to 5 job away from home. Year on year we were inseminating the cows later and later due to heat cycle not being detected, it wasnt working out at all. (Bull isnt an option)
As i cant calve cows being at work, what are other options for me? Fatten steers? rear breeding heifers? (Dont want sheep , im not mad !).

Username John

Feckoffcup wrote: »

Run about 25 cows on 70 acres and ai them, currently working a 9 to 5 job away from home. Year on year we were inseminating the cows later and later due to heat cycle not being detected, it wasnt working out at all. (Bull isnt an option)
As i cant calve cows being at work, what are other options for me? Fatten steers? rear breeding heifers? (Dont want sheep , im not mad !).

You need to :
1) go mad
2) get sheep

Farmer

Username John wrote: »

You need to :
1) go mad
2) get sheep

For many of us, that would occur in the opposite order

KatyMac

Would you consider fattening? Lad near me buys 20 or so every year and sells in the autumn. He seems to get them into the hang of coming to a trough in the yard every evening handy enough (I sometimes see them gathering around 4.30pm for him to be home 5pm when I'm passing.)
It must work for him as he's the sort of man who wouldn't be wasting his time and knows the value of a euro!

50HX

for me fattening is a specialist enterprise if you want to maximize the return - i'm slowly learning a bit with 3-5 heifers each year

would it be an option to cut back the cows and carry the calves forward as steers/ heifers for a grazing season and sell on then

otherwise have a good luck at all costs and see can you cut everything to the bone expense wise and buy in just for the grazing season, no slurry/ai/lower fert bill, feet up for the winter and if you could knock out a bit of O/T during the winter months you may be better off

Feckoffcup

I know there is money although not much from sucklers compared to fattening stock but im forced into changing them. I know people who buy in to fatten only to have broken even when they sell them. So i am thinking rearing heifers for breeding, less intensively fed. Anyone do this?

charolais0153

Feckoffcup wrote: »

I know there is money although not much from sucklers compared to fattening stock but im forced into changing them. I know people who buy in to fatten only to have broken even when they sell them. So i am thinking rearing heifers for breeding, less intensively fed. Anyone do this?

I know a lad, buys in usually limousines with white heads out of simmental cows, they're usually 5 stars and gets on well with them

Who2

Feckoffcup wrote: »

I know there is money although not much from sucklers compared to fattening stock but im forced into changing them. I know people who buy in to fatten only to have broken even when they sell them. So i am thinking rearing heifers for breeding, less intensively fed. Anyone do this?

There's a fair few lads pulling out of suckling and going this route, the problem is there's now too many at it and less suckler farmers about. I know a good few lads at this game and the margins fairly tightened year on year the last while. I know a few got burned this year by not just having the right animal. Marked heifers are getting dearer and lads aren't just paying what they were( Northern lads missing) buying a 4-420 kg heifer doesn't work either you need the 500 kg plus to get good money.

Bass Reeves

OP what sort is the land 25 cows on 70 acres would be a very low stocking rate on 70 acres. What facilities have you in the line of sheds etc. What way is your fencing.etc.

selectamatic

Get yourself a nice well made butty Angus bull and run him with the cows if they've any half decent frame at all they'll calf away completely unassisted and generally the smaller calves are much livelier so they normally start sucking without any assistance too.

Edit apologies just seen the bull not being an option bit.

Bass Reeves

selectamatic wrote: »

Get yourself a nice well made butty Angus bull and run him with the cows if they've any half decent frame at all they'll calf away completely unassisted and generally the smaller calves are much livelier so they normally start sucking without any assistance too.

Edit apologies just seen the bull not being an option bit.

What ever I would use it would not be a small butty AA bull. There calves are as bad as JEx slow growing and very poor weight gain. The advantage of AA is small calf size so I would not be panicked about bull size with suckler cows. However as OP said not an option

Nekarsulm

Lease it to a reliable fellow. Your work in the job will benefit, your pocket will benefit and your family will benefit. No more will you come home from work, only to disappear again for hours.

_Brian

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Lease it to a reliable fellow. Your work in the job will benefit, your pocket will benefit and your family will benefit. No more will you come home from work, only to disappear again for hours.

I see what your saying Nek but god it must be a hard decision to follow through. Through ill health we've dropped way back to a break even system here at the moment but leasing out isn't an option.

Cattlepen

Bass Reeves wrote: »

What ever I would use it would not be a small butty AA bull. There calves are as bad as JEx slow growing and very poor weight gain.

I couldn't really agree with this. Angus as bad as jex? No way.
My experiences with them showed me they can live where a snipe couldn't and would finish on a sniff of meal. No big bills and angus bonus

patsy_mccabe

OP why isn't keeping a bull an option?

Bullocks

Cattlepen wrote: »

Bass Reeves wrote: »

What ever I would use it would not be a small butty AA bull. There calves are as bad as JEx slow growing and very poor weight gain.

I couldn't really agree with this. Angus as bad as jex? No way.
My experiences with them showed me they can live where a snipe couldn't and would finish on a sniff of meal. No big bills and angus bonus

I reckon a butty angus is as bad aswell , no growth worth a crap in some of them

Future Farmer

Feckoffcup wrote: »

Run about 25 cows on 70 acres and ai them, currently working a 9 to 5 job away from home. Year on year we were inseminating the cows later and later due to heat cycle not being detected, it wasnt working out at all. (Bull isnt an option)
As i cant calve cows being at work, what are other options for me? Fatten steers? rear breeding heifers? (Dont want sheep , im not mad !).

Why not sychronise cows?

https://www.teagasc.ie/media/website/animals/beef/Synchronisation-Regimens-for-beef-cows-and-heifers.pdf

Cows: Use a team of bulls correctly (for gestation length) serve 1 LM & CH (etc.), serve 2 AA.

Keep any of your cows AI'ed in a suitable window, other cows - not retained....

Nekarsulm

_Brian wrote: »

I see what your saying Nek but god it must be a hard decision to follow through. Through ill health we've dropped way back to a break even system here at the moment but leasing out isn't an option.

Every one must suit themselves, and try and reach a solution they can live with.
Somebody on this forum once said that the majority of farmers were in effect, institutionalised. And they had a very good point. Nothing wrong with being institutionalised if you are happy, making money and not neglecting other spheres of your life. But if your health or circumstances change, if you cannot adjust and change with them, you will be under a lot of stress and everything will suffer.

selectamatic

Bullocks wrote: »

I reckon a butty angus is as bad aswell , no growth worth a crap in some of them

No calving problems and nice handy animals to finish adequately on grass under the 30 months and then the Angus bonus too or sell on once weaned.

Lads running and racing trying to finish big framed continental and dairy crosses by pumping them with all the meal they can eat aren't making half the profit they like to let on either. And they tend to be busy with calving Jack's too something which won't suit the op.

Now I'm not saying Angus cattle or other smaller breeds are the be all and end all but for low maintenance and low intensity suckling they make alot of sense.

charolais0153

I don't think op kills cattle and that he more than likely sells as weanlings or stores so its likely small butty weanlings wouldn't sell well. What kind of wintering facilities do you have op

Bass Reeves

selectamatic wrote: »

Bullocks wrote: »

I reckon a butty angus is as bad aswell , no growth worth a crap in some of them

No calving problems and nice handy animals to finish adequately on grass under the 30 months and then the Angus bonus too or sell on once weaned.

Lads running and racing trying to finish big framed continental and dairy crosses by pumping them with all the meal they can eat aren't making half the profit they like to let on either. And they tend to be busy with calving Jack's too something which won't suit the op.

Now I'm not saying Angus cattle or other smaller breeds are the be all and end all but for low maintenance and low intensity suckling they make alot of sense.

It is not AA bulls that I have an issue with it is with some of the AA breeding out there at present. There are some excellent AA cattle out there but there is crap breeding as well. Some pedigree lads are breeding AA bulls for ultra easy calving on dairy heifers.These bulls produce smaller than average calves with very poor growth rates. Some of these calves will only average 0.4 kgs/ day. I have had some of these and they are as bad as any JEX and that is after paying above Friesian price for them

It has made me and many other slow to buy AA cattle. There should be no need to breed a small butty AA bul to mature suckler cows. These cows should be well capable of calving down virtually any AA or HE calves. If you go down that route buy decent sized bulls.

patsy_mccabe

Have a look at some of the videos on YouTube of the feedlots in the USA. Some serious AA cattle there.

Willfarman

I agree with bass. I have had Angus bullocks here that were bred out of suckers.. Probably first calving heifers I would say. Lovely square Cattle that thrive very well and id have been quite fond of looking at

and then had daft daves monkey in a grading machine stamp them with O-.....

No qa. No breed bonus and a similar price kilo and only maybe 50 euro per head (better killout) more than friesians that came in maybe 200 less to purchase.

pedigree 6

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Every one must suit themselves, and try and reach a solution they can live with.
Somebody on this forum once said that the majority of farmers were in effect, institutionalised. And they had a very good point. Nothing wrong with being institutionalised if you are happy, making money and not neglecting other spheres of your life. But if your health or circumstances change, if you cannot adjust and change with them, you will be under a lot of stress and everything will suffer.

I know someone who used to farm on their own. Their house wasn't in the greatest nick and the land wasn't either. He used to spend more time chasing sheep around the country after breaking out from the land. Had a few suckler cows aswell and farming (I thought for him) was pure hardship.

Then he set the land to two neighbouring farmers who ploughed, reseeded, limed and fertilised the land. Now he is getting a guaranteed tax free income from the land. By his own admission he was earning more money now by setting than farming it himself. Now in the last few years he is also getting the old age pension too.

He put heating into the house and a new roof and got it all renovated inside.
He has taken a real pride in the dwelling house now and seems to enjoy life more.

So I wouldn't rule out setting land. If farming is drudgery for you why do it when there's other options. You need a life too.

Bass Reeves

OP we will forget about AA at present. If your land is not good enough to finish cattle you have a few choices. At present you have 25 suckler cows. If you have no shed and are outwintering them you can choose to produce stores. Your farm should be capable of outwintering 30 weanlings and 30 18 month old cattle.

The next choice is what to buy. IMO you would be as well off with bucket fed weanlings. Friesian's often sell well as 2 year old stores and are cheap to buy as weanlings. 220-250 kg Friesian weanlings are fairly easy to buy most autumn's. This year it was possible to buy them at about 300/ head seldom would you be hitting above 400/ head for such cattle. It should be relatively easy to get such cattle to 550+ kgs as 2 year old stores. In general such cattle will hit 1k+ most years. At times you may come across a few HEX's or coloured calves at the right price as well.

If you have any sort of housing this should be very easy to achieve and to get theses cattle to 600 kgs as 2 year olds and achieve a fairly good forward store grass price. Finishing heifers could be an option as well. Know a few fellas that buy them as weanlings and finish them as 2 year olds. It's a mixture of quality and price for them and to get cash much weight on at grass as possible.

Bellview

Bass Reeves wrote:

It has made me and many other slow to buy AA cattle. There should be no need to breed a small butty AA bul to mature suckler cows. These cows should be well capable of calving down virtually any AA or HE calves. If you go down that route buy decent sized bulls.

You are correct but they are a few angus out there that would compete with charolais on calving difficulty also. One of the bulls on the icbf maternal program Goulding Eamon will need a hack to get his calves out.

The bigger issue with angus in ai is there are two extremes in stud. They are the small rabbit crew for dairy heifers and the terminal for the suckler. There are very few in between. The calves you are probably referring to are the rabbits that exist from dairy and you are right those animals are a disgrace to hse breed and the stud that have them. Now one of the ai are pushing Goulding man o man as a beef bull because he is an angus with a genetic defect ie double muscled. ..

Interesting at sales bohey jasper sons and daughters make good money because he was a good middle of he road bull that worked well...pity the ai studs especially the large one would focus on bloodlines and stop buying from same breeders who breed for shows and not cattle

Feckoffcup

Op here

I dont like the bull route as we had bad problems with bulls breaking out . Regardless , i cant calve cows anymore anyway due to my job (nobody else to look them). My shed could hold 100 cattle if i wanted, all machinery is there, fences mostly good. Farm is not going to be rented out for another few years at least until essential drainage/fencing is carried out. I cant out winter anything as my land is too wet.

Who2

Buy a share of heifers and finish the ones best suited and ai a few for replacement ,you'll have a couple of bases covered and should have an idea after that.

farisfat

Feckoffcup wrote: »

Run about 25 cows on 70 acres and ai them, currently working a 9 to 5 job away from home. Year on year we were inseminating the cows later and later due to heat cycle not being detected, it wasnt working out at all. (Bull isnt an option)
As i cant calve cows being at work, what are other options for me? Fatten steers? rear breeding heifers? (Dont want sheep , im not mad !).

A few option.
Collect frx, jex calves of dairy farmer and rear them can take up alot of time morning and evening.
Or buy them as runners from sept ón.
Both of these have a small investment and will cover you for stocking rates to draw payments.
Sell standing crops of silage.
fattening cattle is a mugs game and unless you can spend time around the ring to try and buy cheap breeding heifers this can be a gamble.

Feckoffcup

farisfat wrote: »

Feckoffcup wrote: »

Run about 25 cows on 70 acres and ai them, currently working a 9 to 5 job away from home. Year on year we were inseminating the cows later and later due to heat cycle not being detected, it wasnt working out at all. (Bull isnt an option)
As i cant calve cows being at work, what are other options for me? Fatten steers? rear breeding heifers? (Dont want sheep , im not mad !).

A few option.
Collect frx, jex calves of dairy farmer and rear them can take up alot of time morning and evening.
Or buy them as runners from sept ón.
Both of these have a small investment and will cover you for stocking rates to draw payments.
Sell standing crops of silage.
fattening cattle is a mugs game and unless you can spend time around the ring to try and buy cheap breeding heifers this can be a gamble.

when you say buy them as runners, you mean running with the bull? Put them in calf and sell on?

larthehar

If you want to stay suckling a stockbull is a must imo.. i had bull like that, put a chain in his nose ring and had eletric fences in all fields.. never stirred after he got a few belts of 10k volts in the nose..
If you are going down the AI route you need to synchronise heats.. take 3 days off work and ypu should get maybe 90%.. calving is compact too then.. another option but costs are 30quid a head or so i hear.. i can't comment personally..

farisfat

Feckoffcup wrote: »

when you say buy them as runners, you mean running with the bull? Put them in calf and sell on?

runners around here is calves that have being bucket reared.

Sheep breeder

If your getting out of the cows and want to keep stock, the most important thing is the day you buy is the day you sell, buying lucky bag cattle like jersey and fr runners and gambling on keeping them to turn a fortune is a mugs game.
A friend of ours in mayo cut down the sheep due to age and now buys 25 nice store heifers from January to early march before the grass rush and summer graze and meal feeds and kills them with a local butcher by October, he buys in the mart or dealers yard and turns a few pound and keeps him active,
He has it down now on the type, weight, feed, and when to kill.

Bass Reeves

Feckoffcup wrote: »

when you say buy them as runners, you mean running with the bull? Put them in calf and sell on?

A runner is an expression for a light weanling. It originated from lads selling calves sold straight off a cow at less that 220kgs

jimini0

I'm attempting to get rid of my few cows. My first plan was to buy a few calves and bucket rear them. With working full time and having a young family I thought this would be too time consuming.
Second plan was to buy a few runners but the bloody price of those are silly money.
So I'm onto plan 3. I have kept the 2 best cows and I intend on buying 5 or 6 light suckler bred weanlings in the next few weeks. For the extra few quid I have to pay for them is better value than buying dairy bred calves at 3 month old.
I have not looked at weanling prices yet but if I could get them for 500-550 I think they will bring more at the back end than buying dairy ones for 400-450 or even more

Who2

jimini0 wrote: »

I'm attempting to get rid of my few cows. My first plan was to buy a few calves and bucket rear them. With working full time and having a young family I thought this would be too time consuming.
Second plan was to buy a few runners but the bloody price of those are silly money.
So I'm onto plan 3. I have kept the 2 best cows and I intend on buying 5 or 6 light suckler bred weanlings in the next few weeks. For the extra few quid I have to pay for them is better value than buying dairy bred calves at 3 month old.
I have not looked at weanling prices yet but if I could get them for 500-550 I think they will bring more at the back end than buying dairy ones for 400-450 or even more

4-450 will buy you reasonable 280-300 kg friesains. 5-550 wont buy any sort of half decent runner that hasnt been in the back of 6 dealers trucks, more than likely seen about of pneumonia and already been moved from billy to jack. the runners are where the dealers seem to be playing around with. ive seen what looked like calves and 18mths on the card. movements youll find another issue with. either spend a little extra on a first movement suckler bred weanling or get a few more for your money with the friesains, youll find there will be a far better margin than with the friesain, once you can let them grow.

jimini0

Who2 wrote: »

4-450 will buy you reasonable 280-300 kg friesains. 5-550 wont buy any sort of half decent runner that hasnt been in the back of 6 dealers trucks, more than likely seen about of pneumonia and already been moved from billy to jack. the runners are where the dealers seem to be playing around with. ive seen what looked like calves and 18mths on the card. movements youll find another issue with. either spend a little extra on a first movement suckler bred weanling or get a few more for your money with the friesains, youll find there will be a far better margin than with the friesain, once you can let them grow.

I would be hoping to get them for 500-550 but realistically I probably won't. I will be buying locally direct from farmers. I'm aiming to be nice to the farmer so he will remember me for another few down the road.
I can't understand the prices being paid for dairy calves. Its a win win for the dairy man but I don't know what the next man is goin to get. Apart from a headache

Pidae.m

Bad drop fr calves worth €30 last year made €110 in Bandon Monday. It's madness

jimini0 wrote: »

I would be hoping to get them for 500-550 but realistically I probably won't. I will be buying locally direct from farmers. I'm aiming to be nice to the farmer so he will remember me for another few down the road.
I can't understand the prices being paid for dairy calves. Its a win win for the dairy man but I don't know what the next man is goin to get. Apart from a headache

jfh

If you are going down the AI route & working, I think a teaser is invaluable

Bass Reeves

Thete are two ways to make a margin on Friesian's carry them to finish or sell as 2 year old stores. Two year old store Friesian's usually make about 2/kg depending on quality. The old farmers that wants a quite animal that will eat loads of grass will usually pay that. He is reluctant to buy He or AA as he has to sell them before 30 months but he can let the Friesian go over the 30 months. He wants minimum amount of cattle to collect DA area.

Buying from as weanlings at 220 kgs get them to 550ish as 2 year olds and you should have a margin of 7-750 euro. Will a 220 kg runner that costs 550-650, you also have to factor in risk. In all my years with From weanling In think I have only ever lost one out of 300. If you average 1-2/100 with continental runners you are doing well. The Continental will want to make 1400 to achieve the same margin. Another good animal to buy is a Friesian autumn born calf from now on. As long as they are not extreme HO as 2 year old after 2nd summer if you have them above 650 kgs they sell well

tanko

jfh wrote: »

If you are going down the AI route & working, I think a teaser is invaluable

Never had a teaser here, run a few young bullocks with the cows. Find them a great job.

theaceofspies

Pidae.m wrote: »

Bad drop fr calves worth €30 last year made €110 in Bandon Monday. It's madness

Its seems that the worse beef prices get the more fellas pay for calves. There must be a lot of laying hens still out there.

50HX

tanko wrote: »

Never had a teaser here, run a few young bullocks with the cows. Find them a great job.

Ditto and less dangerous

Feckoffcup

What about buying in cull cows and fattening?

Alibaba

Feckoffcup wrote: »

What about buying in cull cows and fattening?

I've often been thinking along those lines myself.

simx

Feckoffcup wrote: »

What about buying in cull cows and fattening?

Often too expensive to buy, at the moment they're a waste of time IMO, then problems like mastitis, lame cows, generally could get sick as older animal too, if bought circa €1/kg there's a twist in them IMO

Jimbo789

Is there any money to be made out of buying well bred dairy Fresian heifer calves a few weeks old, rearing them, keeping them for a couple of years and selling them scanned in calf?

The Cuban

Is forestry not an option? for marginal land it makes economic sense. Tax free money, timber to sell...

Feckoffcup

So far the best option is buying weaned heifers around £600-700 wintering them and put them in calve then sell before calving. Anyone else do this?

Feckoffcup

bump

reps4

Synchronise them with ai. Can all be served together and will calve within a wk of another. Def get high percentage over 3 servings. Chill what doesn't keep and start keeping your own calves add stores.