security company, locking me in...

xpression101

Just curious as to where i would stand on this issue....

I was on a call out to a breakdown in an industrial estate. I arrived at 18:30 drove into the company premises in question which was in an industrial estate, attended the break down and was leaving the premises at about 20:00, the security gates were closed,

I rang the buzzer for them to open the gate, a nice gentleman answers, i ask to open the gate to leave the premises and he asks for a password!

I do not have a password,

He says he cannot open the gates to let me out as i need a password.

Do they have a right to falsly imprison me on the industrial estate and prevent me from going about my normal business?
i entered freely and was restricted from leaving!

I can understand them preventing me from entering the industrial estate.

Im just looking for some ammo for the next time it happens.

Up to one month ago i use to just press the buzzer and the security officer would just open the gate.

I was tempted to just wait there and block other cars from leaving but im sure those people dont deserve the hassle after a day at work, so i just waited for another car to exit and i followed.

Any guidance appriciated.

Thanks

listermint

Ammo for what? tell they guy which company you were in for and the work you were doing, if he doesnt tally give him the number of your contact in the company. You should ask for mobile number.



This isnt a thing, seems like blowing things out of proportion for nothing...

Mrs OBumble

Poor form of the company you were working for not to have pre cleared your exit with security.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

refusetolose

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

"so i just waited for another car to exit and i followed"

xpression101

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Poor form of the company you were working for not to have pre cleared your exit with security.

Not really,

I am all 24 / 7 call. I do this in most of the companies i work for.

Last 10 years i have been coming and going to fix machinary at this place, just in last month it has changed.

HeidiHeidi

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

He tailgated someone else leaving.

OP, sounds simply like systems or procedures in that estate have changed.

If it's a regular thing that you get called there, ask the company/person you're dealing with to find out what the password is so that you won't be "trapped" again. Simple.

xpression101

Not really,

I am all 24 / 7 call. I do this in most of the companies i work for.

Last 10 years i have been coming and going to fix machinary at this place, just in last month it has changed.

I suppose my question is " wether it is poor form or not "

Can the security company prevent you from leaving when you entered freely without restriction through a normal entry point.

xpression101

xpression101 wrote: »

Not really,

I am all 24 / 7 call. I do this in most of the companies i work for.

Last 10 years i have been coming and going to fix machinary at this place, just in last month it has changed.

I suppose my question is " wether it is poor form or not "

Can the security company prevent you from leaving when you entered freely without restriction through a normal entry point.

Not blowing things out of proportion...

Its civil rights, i have a right to freely go about my business with out restriction, this security company was preventing me from doing this.

HeidiHeidi

Not blowing things out of proportion? Seriously

Security procedures in an industrial estate (all of which have huge security problems these days) have changed recently.

Was it really beyond you to ring whoever you'd just done work for and ask what the password is, as this is all new to you?

It hardly counted as false imprisonment or kidnapping.

xpression101

listermint wrote: »

Ammo for what? tell they guy which company you were in for and the work you were doing, if he doesnt tally give him the number of your contact in the company. You should ask for mobile number.



This isnt a thing, seems like blowing things out of proportion for nothing...

I did provide the name and company i was working for. , he just wanted a password, no other information would do.

Ammo to prevent them from stopping me from leaving the industrial estate i suppose

HeidiHeidi

xpression101 wrote: »

Ammo to prevent them from stopping me from leaving the industrial estate i suppose

Before your next visit find out what the password is. Now that you know there is one.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

xpression101

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

Not blowing things out of proportion? Seriously

Security procedures in an industrial estate (all of which have huge security problems these days) have changed recently.

Was it really beyond you to ring whoever you'd just done work for and ask what the password is, as this is all new to you?

It hardly counted as false imprisonment or kidnapping.

Your missing the point..
i understand security issues etc,
but if i entered freely i should be allowed to exit freely.

I would understand if i was asked on entry for my details and exited to hand details back, which i do in some companies ( not industrial estates though)

If you entered a shopping centre and entered a shop, then at 18:01 after you had bought nothing and the shopping centre closed you were leaving, if you were asked for a password to leave how would you feel.

HeidiHeidi

xpression101 wrote: »

If you entered a shopping centre and entered a shop, then at 18:01 after you had bought nothing and the shopping centre closed you were leaving, if you were asked for a password to leave how would you feel.

I'd feel that maybe there was a good reason for such (frankly, fairly odd, I'll admit) procedures, and go about finding out what the password was so I didn't get delayed again next time.

I wouldn't "feel" anything, particularly.

xpression101

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

Before your next visit find out what the password is. Now that you know there is one.

Still missing my point i think.

slavetothegrind

op it is a load of bollox and you should bill the security company for your waiting time to get out.

It is illegal detention and a stupid practice on the part of security. You are supposed to keep the bad guys out not lock them in!

You should have called them out and got the Gardai involved.

HeidiHeidi

xpression101 wrote: »

Still missing my point i think.

Maybe I am?

My point is, it happened once as you didn't realise/weren't informed that procedures had changed.

It need never happen again.

It's that simple.

Mountain and molehill spring to mind.

slavetothegrind

there is no "procedure" involving detaining members of the public for your own purposes and convenience that is lawful!

xpression101

slavetothegrind wrote: »

op it is a load of bollox and you should bill the security company for your waiting time to get out.

It is illegal detention and a stupid practice on the part of security. You are supposed to keep the bad guys out not lock them in!

You should have called them out and got the Gardai involved.

Thankyou thats what i thought

xpression101

slavetothegrind wrote: »

there is no "procedure" involving detaining members of the public for your own purposes and convenience that is lawful!

Sorry im confussed, lawfull or unlawfull

slavetothegrind

it is not legal as a private citizen or a company to detain someone in those circumstances. IMO.

xpression101

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

Maybe I am?

My point is, it happened once as you didn't realise/weren't informed that procedures had changed.

It need never happen again.

It's that simple.

Mountain and molehill spring to mind.

Mountain and molehill...

There is a point where you have to stop...
what next .. you have to give them your address, passport etc.
if you give in on the small thing it makes them think they have more and more power.
rights are rights. Full stop.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

xpression101

Fred Swanson wrote: »

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Perfect example of what i was thinking.

HeidiHeidi

Jaysus, plenty drama queens around tonight

It's a security guy in an industrial estate ffs!

Best of luck with the lawsuit/prosecution so. Do come back and let us know how you got on.

(I actually think this is a wind-up now, and I've fallen for it - but I'll leave this post here just in case)

xpression101

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

Jaysus, plenty drama queens around tonight

It's a security guy in an industrial estate ffs!

Best of luck with the lawsuit/prosecution so. Do come back and let us know how you got on.

Still missing my point......

Drama queen or not!!!!

Did the security company have any rights what so ever to prevent me from leaving an industrial estate that i freely entered.

If i was for example trying to find a company and entered this industrial estate got a bit lost found out the company was in a different estate tried to leave at 6:01pm and was told i needed a password.

What would i do in this case. Wait till 6am till the gates opened for normal day business.

slavetothegrind

Put in a complaint to the PSA op.

and for pure divilment persue it!

Sure they are there to protect us from dodgy security companies! ......

xpression101

slavetothegrind wrote: »

Put in a complaint to the PSA op.

and for pure divilment persue it!

Sure they are there to protect us from dodgy security companies! ......

hah...

Should do.
But i suppose i want to for next time be prepared with an argument that they have no right to prevent me from leaving the premises.

Bicky bicky

slavetothegrind wrote: »

Put in a complaint to the PSA op.

and for pure divilment persue it!

Sure they are there to protect us from dodgy security companies! ......

What will the PSA do? One man in a shed in Tipperary toothless only there for issuing of licences

You imprisoned yourself by going behind the gate.

OP you didn't have the password needed to get out when security officer started his shift, retail park management would have something written to state all adhere to their rules or clearly stating on signs it's private property.

Let us know how you get on I'm intrigued!

slavetothegrind

Sure i know Bicky but if no-one persues them they will never change...

I work in a secure estate and in fairness there is a lack of signage!

In reality though a sign saying so don't make it legally so!

xpression101

Bicky bicky wrote: »

What will the PSA do? One man in a shed in Tipperary toothless only there for issuing of licences

You imprisoned yourself by going behind the gate.

OP you didn't have the password needed to get out when security officer started his shift, retail park management would have something written to state all adhere to their rules or clearly stating on signs it's private property.

Let us know how you get on I'm intrigued!

I imprisioned myself? .. i drove into an industrial estate freely, i did not break in or close the gates behind me.

There are no signs to indicate anywhere entry or exit is restricted or that its a private property, many companies in the estate.

Only signs are. Security managed by "X" company

Del2005

xpression101 wrote: »

hah...

Should do.
But i suppose i want to for next time be prepared with an argument that they have no right to prevent me from leaving the premises.

Ask the company that called you if there is a password to exit the site?

The other option that you have is to drive through the barrier but that could leave you open to criminal damage, its illegal for them to detain you but it's also illegal to damage others property, and possibly being banned from the property.

xpression101

Del2005 wrote: »

Ask the company that called you if there is a password to exit the site?

The other option that you have is to drive through the barrier but that could leave you open to criminal damage, its illegal for them to detain you but it's also illegal to damage others property, and possibly being banned from the property.

Its a big security gate, dont think my car would win outright!!!

kaymin

Presumably this password procedure is there to prevent theft of vehicles from the carpark. As others have said, why make such a big deal in toeing the line with this procedure?

xpression101

kaymin wrote: »

Presumably this password procedure is there to prevent theft of vehicles from the carpark. As others have said, why make such a big deal in toeing the line with this procedure?

Procedure or not.

Toeing the line or not.

I should be free to leave.

kaymin

xpression101 wrote: »

kaymin wrote: »

Presumably this password procedure is there to prevent theft of vehicles from the carpark. As others have said, why make such a big deal in toeing the line with this procedure?

Procedure or not.

Toeing the line or not.

I should be free to leave.

I'm sure you can walk out if you want just not bring a vehicle which the security company is there trying to protect, along with the building. Surely you can see the purpose behind the procedure. You'd be giving out if your vehicle was robbed from there.

xpression101

kaymin wrote: »

I'm sure you can walk out if you want just not bring a vehicle which the security company is there trying to protect, along with the building. Surely you can see the purpose behind the procedure. You'd be giving out if your vehicle was robbed from there.

No the pedistrian gate is secured too.


I understand the principle and yes i would be peeved if my car was robbed, but its basic rights i am talking about..

So if i wait for someone else to leave and tailgate them, it ok to rob a car!


Rights are rights, i should be free to leave.

Del2005

xpression101 wrote: »

No the pedistrian gate is secured too.


I understand the principle and yes i would be peeved if my car was robbed, but its basic rights i am talking about..

So if i wait for someone else to leave and tailgate them, it ok to rob a car!


Rights are rights, i should be free to leave.

Did you contact the security company to see if you need to register when going onto the estate? Just because the barriers are up during office hours doesn't mean that vehicles have to be registered.

If not it's up to your company to contact your customer(s) and say that they need to advise you of any security procedures on the site.

aphex™

Failing to adhere to some archaic admin procedure doesn't mean he has to be falsely imprisoned. As a reminder the max penalty for this crime is life in jail.

OP I would refer the issue to the Gardai ASAP.

kub

OP, if machinery is your thing, then why did you not go to the gate control unit, give it a pulse and let yourself out?

4ensic15

aphex™ wrote: »

Failing to adhere to some archaic admin procedure doesn't mean he has to be falsely imprisoned. As a reminder the max penalty for this crime is life in jail.

OP I would refer the issue to the Gardai ASAP.

There can be an often is a civil action for false imprisonment which does not involve the Garda. There are numerous false imprisonment actions every year in the courts. Most involve suspected shoplifters not being allowed to leave shops. The o/p was refused an exit from premises. He was deprived of his liberty.

listermint

This thread is absolutely hilarious. And would have been mitigated if the OP spoke to the company he works for and bothered his arse asking for procedure guidelines when working on their premises.

I suspect he won't bother because sure there is a spot open for victimhood.



Oh and I see the freemen have arrived.

Quality Reading

seamus

The next time your password is, "Open the gate and let me out before I ring the Guards, you idiot"

harr

Some amount of drama queens in here...security guard following procedures if op had been up to no good in the premises and security just let him leave ...his job probably gone..get onto security get proper clearances for next visit.
A break down in communication somewhere that's all..
all this talk of making complaints to guards is ridiculous in my opinion...

Green Peter

Bill them for the time and point it out on the bill and it won't be long before they give you a password. In fairness if someone was trying to take your car while you were working there the security guard and system would have prevented it from being stolen. When you get the password it will be a win win for all!

Yourself isit

listermint wrote: »

This thread is absolutely hilarious. And would have been mitigated if the OP spoke to the company he works for and bothered his arse asking for procedure guidelines when working on their premises.

I suspect he won't bother because sure there is a spot open for victimhood.



Oh and I see the freemen have arrived.

Quality Reading

Not believing companies can stop someone from leaving is hardly extreme libertarianism. Particularly if there's no signs suggesting that's the rules.

It's like a hotel not letting you or if your room if you've lost the digital key. That would be a actionable.

Yourself isit

Green Peter wrote: »

Bill them for the time and point it out on the bill and it won't be long before they give you a password. In fairness if someone was trying to take your car while you were working there the security guard and system would have prevented it from being stolen. When you get the password it will be a win win for all!

Get a list of people's cars.

hullaballoo

Moderator: This is the Legal Discussion forum and odds for the discussion of legal rights, obligations, remedies, principles etc. It is not for crass similes and inaccurate name-calling.

OP, my apologies that so many posters have been so far allowed to post what is nothing short of uninformed drivel in many cases. End Moderator

The security company have things backwards here. They are free to prevent people entering a premises without appropriate checks and balances, but as a few have already pointed out, once they purport to prevent someone leaving, that is not just an unlawful but an unconstitutional deprivation of liberty.

We've had a few discussions here on the various bodies/agents who have powers of detention and the reality is that only really AGS can actually detain someone and at that, they can only do so in very limited circumstances and usually with a good deal of paperwork to accompany such detention.

For a private individual/company to purport to exercise such powers is (a) stupid and (b) dangerous as there is every chance they will face a very very expensive civil suit.

I'll give an example you might see if you are a DART user. Ticket inspectors used to frequently catch people (usually schoolchildren, ime) who had no ticket or had paid an incorrect fare. Because they knew one the train got to the next stop, they were powerless to prevent anyone leaving, the train would stop shy of the station, sometimes for quite some time due to "operational" problems so they could wait for AGS to arrive. (AGS actually seemed to entertain this practice too, arriving and interrogating young children at the behest of IÉ!)

So, they knew they were limited by law and could not detain one passenger who was 10c shy on their fare and answered this problem by detaining a full train full of people pending the arrival of AGS. Genius or what?

xpression101

hullaballoo wrote: »

Moderator: This is the Legal Discussion forum and odds for the discussion of legal rights, obligations, remedies, principles etc. It is not for crass similes and inaccurate name-calling.

OP, my apologies that so many posters have been so far allowed to post what is nothing short of uninformed drivel in many cases. [/b]End Moderator[/b]

The security company have things backwards here. They are free to prevent people entering a premises without appropriate checks and balances, but as a few have already pointed out, once they purport to prevent someone leaving, that is not just an unlawful but an unconstitutional deprivation of liberty.

We've had a few discussions here on the various bodies/agents who have powers of detention and the reality is that only really AGS can actually detain someone and at that, they can only do so in very limited circumstances and usually with a good deal of paperwork to accompany such detention.

For a private individual/company to purport to exercise such powers is (a) stupid and (b) dangerous as there is every chance they will face a very very expensive civil suit.

I'll give an example you might see if you are a DART user. Ticket inspectors used to frequently catch people (usually schoolchildren, ime) who had no ticket or had paid an incorrect fare. Because they knew one the train got to the next stop, they were powerless to prevent anyone leaving, the train would stop shy of the station, sometimes for quite some time due to "operational" problems so they could wait for AGS to arrive. (AGS actually seemed to entertain this practice too, arriving and interrogating young children at the behest of IÉ!)

So, they knew they were limited by law and could not detain one passenger who was 10c shy on their fare and answered this problem by detaining a full train full of people pending the arrival of AGS. Genius or what?

Thanks, i can quote to the poor security officer.

"that it is unlawful and unconstitutional deprivation of my liberty to prevent me from leaving the industrial estate"

Im sure he will just hang up and delay me anyway, i will just keep pressing buzzer delaying other people leaving..

The issue i have is simple rights, i was expecting alot of posters to say "just get the password !!!!!"
But thats the easy way out and allows the security company to enforce their rules wrong.

Boater123

xpression101 wrote: »

Thanks, i can quote to the poor security officer.

"that it is unlawful and unconstitutional deprivation of my liberty to prevent me from leaving the industrial estate"

Im sure he will just hang up and delay me anyway, i will just keep pressing buzzer delaying other people leaving..

The issue i have is simple rights, i was expecting alot of posters to say "just get the password !!!!!"
But thats the easy way out and allows the security company to enforce their rules wrong.

I can't speak for this particular company, but in most situations when someone seeks access to a premises owned by a private company and protected by a private security company, by entering they agree to abide by the security procedures of that site.

This is usually written somewhere eg on the back of the visitors pass, in the visitors or contractors log, sometimes on a sign at the gate.

If you don't abide by the security procedures and wish to leave, a private security company has no right to detain you unless they have a good reason to. Recorded on camera stealing would be reason enough to detain you pending arrival of the ASG, similar to a citizens rights of arrest. Solely not having a password is really not a good enough reason for detaining you.

What should have happened is the s/o should have released you as soon as you protested, took a note of who you were and your companies name. Your company would then be contacted and told you're not welcome back again.

This would then solve your password and false imprisonment issues. After all you probably will be out of a job now that you personally can't go back on site, because of your own actions, to perform your employment duties.