Home charge point installation

Lochlannach

We're looking at getting a Leaf for my wife and I'm therefore considering charge point installation.

I had been thinking of installing an outdoor socket for home brewing purposes anyway so what I would like to do is to install a 32A outdoor socket (6mm SWA to consumer board, rcbo & connected by a pro etc.) close to where the charge point would be fitted. Then the charge point would be wired up with a tail (arctic flex) & plug like any other appliance. In reality the charger would be plugged in the majority of the time with it only being plugged out on the few occasions I need the socket for other uses. This would also, in my opinion, be a cleaner install for the future as we may well move in a couple of years - it would be easier to remove the charge point and a socket would benefit the next owner.

Is this feasible as I don't see any real issues?

KCross

Lochlannach wrote: »

We're looking at getting a Leaf for my wife and I'm therefore considering charge point installation.

I had been thinking of installing an outdoor socket for home brewing purposes anyway so what I would like to do is to install a 32A outdoor socket (6mm SWA to consumer board, rcbo & connected by a pro etc.) close to where the charge point would be fitted. Then the charge point would be wired up with a tail (arctic flex) & plug like any other appliance. In reality the charger would be plugged in the majority of the time with it only being plugged out on the few occasions I need the socket for other uses. This would also, in my opinion, be a cleaner install for the future as we may well move in a couple of years - it would be easier to remove the charge point and a socket would benefit the next owner.

Is this feasible as I don't see any real issues?

Im not an electrician but if I read you right you are looking to "plug the charger in" to a 3 pin outdoor socket. Is that what you are describing?

If yes, I dont think thats any way normal or safe. A 32A charge point would have its own dedicated 40A RCBO and would be well beyond the capability of a standard 13A 3-pin plug.

I think what you need is a 32A charge point which also has a 3 pin plug built in. They are available and might give you what you need.
https://evonestop.co.uk/shop/wallpods-ev/wallpodev-multimode-6amp-j1772-5m-tethered-lead-type-1/

If you move and you take the charger off the wall just put in an outdoor socket then in its place. I suspect you'd need to change the RCBO then though as the 40A would be too high rated to have any value.

Can you clarify what you mean in case I misunderstood you.

Lochlannach

Not quite...

I'm looking to install a 32a run from the consumer board with the correct type of and rating on cable, RCBO & socket, just terminating in a socket rather than the EV charging point. The EV charger would be wired up with the correct rating of arctic flex and plug to match the socket. (e.g. Socket & Plug).

The brewing equipment I would be looking to use, for example, would need a 32a socket as I'm looking at up on 5KW in elements plus pumps etc. It would be easier for me to have one socket that I could use for both.

KCross

Ah OK. Sounds reasonable to me but as I said Im not an electrician so I'll leave the RECI approval stuff to someone else on here.

However, what about if you need a beer but you also need to charge the car?!

cros13

Yup... not a bother. One of my parents chargepoints is hooked to a 32A socket as you describe. My dad uses the socket for his compressor as well.

Evd-Burner

Don't the chargers have smarts inside to inform the vehicle of what amperage to charge at?

KCross

Evd-Burner wrote: »

Don't the chargers have smarts inside to inform the vehicle of what amperage to charge at?

The majority of the smarts are in the car. not the charge point.
i.e. the Car "asks" for the amps and the charger "releases" it.

Lochlannach

KCross wrote: »

Ah OK. Sounds reasonable to me but as I said Im not an electrician so I'll leave the RECI approval stuff to someone else on here.

However, what about if you need a beer but you also need to charge the car?!

She can p*** off if she wants to charge at the same time Beer is one of life's essentials and time to make it must be allowed

The reality is we'd be charging the car at night and the times I'd be putting it to other uses would be a weekend afternoon normally.

Lochlannach

cros13 wrote: »

Yup... not a bother. One of my parents chargepoints is hooked to a 32A socket as you describe. My dad uses the socket for his compressor as well.

That's what I thought...I'll likely be down west tomorrow so may well get a chance to run this past a sparks too...

n97 mini

KCross wrote: »

The majority of the smarts are in the car. not the charge point.
i.e. the Car "asks" for the amps and the charger "releases" it.

Not quite. Car can only draw max available current.

KCross

n97 mini wrote: »

Not quite. Car can only draw max available current.

You're a stickler for detail

sgalvin

Is a team effort between car and wall "charger".

The wall mounted "charger" tells the car what current is available from it. (Granny leads tell the car they can only take 10amp)

The car then controls the current it wants/needs up to the limit its has been told is available.

No issue with plugging the "charger" into a 32 amp single or 3 phase + neutral supply as required.

KCross wrote: »

You're a stickler for detail

Stealthirl

Was actually going to ask the same question as im still looking into buying a Leaf.

I'm going to be talking with the spark in work about getting some sort of charging set up in work [under the radar] as there dragging the heals about installing charge points the last 4-5 years.

If he could set up the above mentioned plug outside would it be feasible to do so and keep the charger in my locker/boot until needed? We couldn't get away with sticking a EVSE on the wall.I could also get the same set up at home thus only needing to buy 1 EVSE.

Is there another option between the stranded 3pin 12amp home plug and a dedicated 16 or 32amp EVSE?

He also needs the specs for running the power out to the EVSE
Im guessing that would obviously be signal phase 220-240V 32amp supply on a 40Amp breaker using 6mm2 or better cable ?

Anything else i would have to tell/ask him ?

cerastes

Stealthirl wrote: »

Was actually going to ask the same question as im still looking into buying a Leaf.

I'm going to be talking with the spark in work about getting some sort of charging set up in work [under the radar] as there dragging the heals about installing charge points the last 4-5 years.

If he could set up the above mentioned plug outside would it be feasible to do so and keep the charger in my locker/boot until needed? We couldn't get away with sticking a EVSE on the wall.I could also get the same set up at home thus only needing to buy 1 EVSE.

Is there another option between the stranded 3pin 12amp home plug and a dedicated 16 or 32amp EVSE?

He also needs the specs for running the power out to the EVSE
Im guessing that would obviously be signal phase 220-240V 32amp supply on a 40Amp breaker using 6mm2 or better cable ?

Anything else i would have to tell/ask him ?

Tell the employer? you'd be making use of their electric supply, might be considered to be defrauding them? If the charger is now portable and not afixed to anything, whats to stop it being stolen? will it be tested and labelled as a portable appliance?

KCross

Stealthirl wrote: »

Was actually going to ask the same question as im still looking into buying a Leaf.

I'm going to be talking with the spark in work about getting some sort of charging set up in work [under the radar] as there dragging the heals about installing charge points the last 4-5 years.

If he could set up the above mentioned plug outside would it be feasible to do so and keep the charger in my locker/boot until needed? We couldn't get away with sticking a EVSE on the wall.I could also get the same set up at home thus only needing to buy 1 EVSE.

Is there another option between the stranded 3pin 12amp home plug and a dedicated 16 or 32amp EVSE?

He also needs the specs for running the power out to the EVSE
Im guessing that would obviously be signal phase 220-240V 32amp supply on a 40Amp breaker using 6mm2 or better cable ?

Anything else i would have to tell/ask him ?

The only real portable EVSE is the granny cable which only charges off a 13A socket so it's quite slow.

The usual wall mounted 16 or 32A EVSE isnt designed for moving around and I'd say it would be dangerous, for instance, to have it lying on the ground charging while raining.

Maybe such a product exists, I haven't seen it though.

Other than that your specs are good.

unkel

I wouldn't do that, Stealthirl. If you get caught and your employer takes it badly, he is entitled to fire you there and then (theft of company property)

Is a few € saving worth the risk? No, it isn't. Talk to him.

Stealthirl

Sorry i should have been clearer.
They don't want to pay for 1 or multiple EVSE that's the hold up.
The other EV drivers want them to stump up €2k each on a rapid charger or 3 :rolleyes:

The wall mount would more then likely be a no go with the property owener though. [under the radar part]
I would also foot the bill for the EVSE itself

At last count there were 5 maybe 6 EV's on site

cerastes

That doesn't seem to be a hold up so much as a definitive answer, they don't want it if they don't want to pay for it. Suprised anyone would jepordise their job hooking this up for you or that anyone would ask them to jepordise it, it wouldn't be an approved installation and would surely come to light?

ted1

What about a second point for the home brew and a priority switch ?

http://www.meteorelectrical.com/news/consumer-units/priority--nonpriority-shower-units/801526994

Lochlannach

ted1 wrote: »

What about a second point for the home brew and a priority switch ?

http://www.meteorelectrical.com/news/consumer-units/priority--nonpriority-shower-units/801526994

Those two should never have to co-exist (the brewing and the charging) as the car will be charged at night and I won't be brewing then. However, that being said, I've to look at the possibility of a priority switch anyway as there's an electric shower in the house. I need to take a look at the board and see what way that's currently setup.

KCross

Lochlannach wrote: »

Those two should never have to co-exist (the brewing and the charging) as the car will be charged at night and I won't be brewing then. However, that being said, I've to look at the possibility of a priority switch anyway as there's an electric shower in the house. I need to take a look at the board and see what way that's currently setup.

Is the home brew stuff power hungry? Would it utilise 32A on its own?

Keep in mind you could get a 16A EVSE and the electric shower and car could work together.

However, if the brewing is power hungry and the electric shower comes on then you might be in priority switch territory.

Do you think you will need/get a 6.6kW capable car. Most of the Leaf's are only 3.3kW.

unkel

Home brew stuff is probably just a sleeve to keep the fermentation vessel at 21C? If so, that would use very little power. I guess you want to do the homebrewing outside because the Mrs doesn't like the smell and the risk of explosions?

cros13

For electric brewing? Lot of water boiling, big immersion heating elements etc.

Could need 20-30A or similar for reasonable periods of time.

Lochlannach

The homebrew kit is a boiler with two 3KW elements and a couple of pumps running so heavyish for a couple of hours.

By installing a single socket the car and brewing kit can share with no issues...one won't be needed when the other is.

The shower...it's in the main bathroom and is only ever used when we have guests as we have a separate pump feed in the ensuite that doesn't heat water and is low usage I believe atm. I'm trying to find the shower's power usage at the moment to see if it's going to need a priority switch but I suspect it will.

In order to minimise the range and charging concerns for herself I'm going to look at a 6.6KW charging car...there are a few places she goes occasionally where a fast charger is not convenient so the faster charging of the 6.6KW would be best.

KCross

Lochlannach wrote: »

The homebrew kit is a boiler with two 3KW elements and a couple of pumps running so heavyish for a couple of hours.

2x3kW + Pumps... what are the pumps rated for? Total of about maybe 7-8kW's?

This alone sounds like you need the priority switch regardless of the car as a 9kW shower plus another 7kW on top will probably be too much... certainly close anyway.

Lochlannach wrote: »

In order to minimise the range and charging concerns for herself I'm going to look at a 6.6KW charging car...there are a few places she goes occasionally where a fast charger is not convenient so the faster charging of the 6.6KW would be best.

Not sure I understand you there. What types of chargers will she be using in these "few places"? Is it AC or DC? If its DC then the 6.6kW doesnt matter... that only applies to AC charging.

Lochlannach

Probably 6.5KW would be more than enough for the brewing rig - the pumps are only 10a and there will be a lightweight (think raspberry pi) controller too. I've to look at the shower this evening to see what it's rated at.

Yeah, I know the 32a socket installation was always going to raise the priority switch question - anyone have a ballpark on price for these?


So, as I understand it, not all locations have the fast charge (80% in 20 mins = DC?). Also I believe it's better to not use the fast chargers for battery longevity. Therefore I was looking to maximize the charging potential from the standard charge points hence the 6.6 charger onboard. Am I getting this wrong?

KCross

Lochlannach wrote: »

Probably 6.5KW would be more than enough for the brewing rig - the pumps are only 10a and there will be a lightweight (think raspberry pi) controller too. I've to look at the shower this evening to see what it's rated at.

Yeah, I know the 32a socket installation was always going to raise the priority switch question - anyone have a ballpark on price for these?

Never had to buy a priority switch so I dont know. A few hundred anyway, I believe, between buy and install.

Lochlannach wrote: »

So, as I understand it, not all locations have the fast charge (80% in 20 mins = DC?). Also I believe it's better to not use the fast chargers for battery longevity. Therefore I was looking to maximize the charging potential from the standard charge points hence the 6.6 charger onboard. Am I getting this wrong?

Take a look at this map...

https://esb.ie/our-businesses/ecars/charge-point-map

Blue is rapid charge (30mins DC), Green is standard charge (4-8hrs AC).

If you plan to use the AC regularly then the 6.6kW is worth it.
Dont shy away from DC. It wont do any damage to the battery or its longevity. There are taxis using it daily in the UK without any major issues.

Lochlannach

Well it was partly that if she, for example, goes into Dublin for a 2 hour meeting she may need a top up to be sure of getting home (kildare-maynooth-dublin-maynooth-kildare) - the thought was that a standard charge point for that duration on a 6.6kw would be a better fit than finding a fast charge point and having to wait with the car.
For longer journeys or some run out of the ordinary etc. the fast charge points will definitely be sought/used.

unkel

Kildare to Dublin city centre via Maynooth and back is only about 100km? She wouldn't need a charge for that, not even in a 24kWh Leaf, surely?

Lochlannach

unkel wrote: »

Kildare to Dublin city centre via Maynooth and back is only about 100km? She wouldn't need a charge for that, not even in a 24kWh Leaf, surely?

So just looked at one location she's visited and I'm making it out at 120KM for the day. Factor in some use of the heating and that then I'm not sure it would manage. 
What's the realistic range this time of year in low temperatures?

unkel

That's further than I thought. I'd say in cold weather with aircon / lights on, you'd be pushing it at 120km in a 24kWh Leaf alright.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

That's further than I thought. I'd say in cold weather with aircon / lights on, you'd be pushing it at 120km in a 24kWh Leaf alright.

Not a chance a 24kWh would make it. It would be tight at 100km... certainly range anxiety territory unless you are driving like Miss Daisy.

KCross

I'll add.... when calculating the range you have to take the worst case scenario, as a car that fits your purpose everyday except a few days where the worst case happens (night, wind, rain, cold) and you are stuck at the side of the road is no good.

The range meter on the leaf regularly tells me I can do 120km so technically its possible to do it in a 24kWh leaf but thats not for worst case scenario.

If you plan to regularly do 120km you need a 30kWh Leaf to make that trip all year round and allow some spare capacity as you dont want to come home every day with <10% in the "tank".

ptogher14

Do charging points need to be fed from an MCB or RCBO?

KCross

ptogher14 wrote: »

Do charging points need to be fed from an MCB or RCBO?

Im not a RECI but apparently either will do but an RCBO is recommended.

See post 11 onwards here...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=99434970

cros13

Some chargepoints will have an RCBO on the chargepoint side already.

goz83

cros13 wrote: »

Some chargepoints will have an RCBO on the chargepoint side already.

Just checked. The Rolec charger I ordered has this built in for both the charger and the extra socket.

ptogher14

Thanks lads

Fiesta

goz83 wrote: »

The Rolec charger I ordered has this built in for both the charger and the extra socket.

Where did you order the Rolec?

Calahonda52

goz83 wrote: »

Just checked. The Rolec charger I ordered has this built in for both the charger and the extra socket.

So is this tethered, like this, 16 0r 32 Amp?
https://evonestop.co.uk/shop/wallpods-ev/wallpodev-multimode-iec62196-5m-tethered-lead-type-2-16amp/

KCross

Calahonda52 wrote: »

So is this tethered, like this, 16 0r 32 Amp?
https://evonestop.co.uk/shop/wallpods-ev/wallpodev-multimode-iec62196-5m-tethered-lead-type-2-16amp/

Yea, thats tethered.
Get 32A, the price difference is minimal.

Calahonda52

Got a quote yesterday for supply only of a Garo GHL-T274WO 32A home charger c/w RCBO

Nice looking unit

https://www.garo.ie/Categories/evhomechargers/EV-Home-Chargers : click on get brochure for spec

[Nice option with the dip switch to be able to reduce the Amps if you have an issue elsewhere on the domestic install.]

RCBO if it trips needs key to access.

Quote was €686.19 inc 23% VAT

Not clear from quote if it is tethered or not.

KCross

Nice looking alright but the cheaper units(€350-€400) are over priced as it is, so paying €689 seems a bit too steep for my liking.

Calahonda52

Yep, almost added value to the house!
Just wonder why Garo did not get a mention here by the boss

Posting the whole thing here as its a useful list in any event

cros13 wrote: »

There are a few better than Rolec in different categories.

Rolec makes good basic chargepoints, but for more features / premium materials / multi-EV charging you need to look elsewhere:

FILLIE - very well built, very stylish, upgradable to three phase, cloud management

Tesla Wall Connector - upgradable to three phase, up to single phase 48A, load sharing, stylish

ICU Eve Mini - upgradable to three phase, RFID authentication, LCD charging status screen

ChargePoint Home - Tethered J1772 chargepoints, very stylish, smart home integration, cloud management, have to import from the US but they work fine here.

Charge AMPS Halo - Stylish, odd socket location, cloud management, load sharing

Zaptec Zapcharger - load sharing, cloud management, upgradable to three phase, RFID

With the exception of the Tesla Wall Connector and ChargePoint Home all are substantially more expensive than the Rolec.

cros13

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Yep, almost added value to the house!
Just wonder why Garo did not get a mention here by the boss

Posting the whole thing here as its a useful list in any event

A practical issue. They put the socket on the side, same as the ABL and I always scrape my knuckles plugging in and disconnecting from those.

slave1

Podpoint are another option

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

That's further than I thought. I'd say in cold weather with aircon / lights on, you'd be pushing it at 120km in a 24kWh Leaf alright.

jeepers , is this lights and aircon tinfoil hat stuff still being mentioned, the climate system and lights have negligible , repeat negligible effect on modern leafs ( after 2014) , affecting range by about 5Km

rain, adverse winds , speed and hills have far far greater effect

n97 mini

Lochlannach wrote: »

the pumps are only 10a

10 amp pumps? What in the name of jaysus are you at, fracking? I've a semi pro brewery pump here rated at 1.8 amps, and that'd be max load.

unkel

BoatMad wrote: »

rain, adverse winds , speed and hills have far far greater effect

More than the cold weather? In the lead brick that is the Leaf maybe

Lights and aircon (in very cold or very warm weather) are far from negligible , unless you have LED lights.

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

More than the cold weather? In the lead brick that is the Leaf maybe

Lights and aircon (in very cold or very warm weather) are far from negligible , unless you have LED lights.

The Leaf is a Lithium and Graphite brick, its not in any way a " lead brick "

Have you actually every owned a modern EV. The effect of lights and heating etc are negligible . its easy seen in the range calculations. a heavy right foot is far more damaging to the range

take for example your headlights , these are 2x 55w bulbs, thats 110 watts,
on say a 90minute drive at 100KMPH, which is around the range limit, your lights consume 275wattHours , or 0.275Kwh

Now in the leaf, actually that power comes from the 12V battery , which is topped up by the main LI battery. On recharge both batteries get recharged

so lets say the 12V battery contributes 1/3 of the power. hence the LI contributes about 0.2 Kwh

with a 30 kwh Li battery , the lights represent 0.0066 of the capacity or in effect given a nominal 150 km range approx 1 km

a similar exercise can be done for the heater. aircon, and heated seats

The net effect is about 5-8Km of range and that only applies where you are consuming the whole range

so lets not hear any more on this issue , the maths are the maths

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

More than the cold weather? In the lead brick that is the Leaf maybe

Lights and aircon (in very cold or very warm weather) are far from negligible , unless you have LED lights.

Traction motor is drawing say 15kw per hour (you know this as you're getting less than 2 hours driving from a 28kw battery).

Lights: 2x55w halogens are drawing 0.11kw per hour. That's less than 1% of the total demand.

Air con: starts up at 3-4kw but settles down to less than 0.3kw. That's about 2% of total demand.