What makes Ireland the most dangerous country in Europe

Johnboner

Why Ireland specifically is at the top?

Stravos Murphy

Potholes, drivers on facebook and taking snapchats of their new lipstick.

Johnboner

Stravos Murphy wrote: »

Potholes, drivers on facebook and taking snapchats of their new lipstick.

Potholes, yeah that's definitely one I guess, have so many in some places that you have to choose the least worst one when possible and very hard to see at night in the rain. Regarding phone usage I have seen that a lot too but that seems to be similar to the UK. Not sure if it's a major one but riding outside of the motorways on unlit roads at night and in rain seems to be the perfect conditions for wrecking, had a close one not too long ago, literally could not see the road due to rain, blinding cars and no road lighting. UK seems to be very similar to Ireland in terms of everything really yet we still come out on top.

Korat

Ireland is not bad at all.

Irish drivers are generally really good.

Could be better of course.

rustynutz

Johnboner wrote: »

Why Ireland specifically is at the top?

Are you quoting the results of a survey? I'm not surprised either way, a combination of bad roads and wet weather make things very tricky for the biker in this country, also the complete disregard other road users have for motorcyclists is frightening. In cities some car drivers seem to get upset by bikes filtering also, try to dangerously close gaps to prevent bikes getting through. Not sure if that's the case in other countries.

Then you have the fair weather riders (like me) that can get carried away with excessive speeds after not being on the bike for a few months due to rain or whatever, its amazing how rusty your skills can get when you haven't been on the bike in a while

gerrowadat

Ireland has by no means the worst drivers, try driving in Italy and come back to me :-)

Bohrio

gerrowadat wrote: »

Ireland has by no means the worst drivers, try driving in Italy and come back to me :-)

This is true, however, what makes Irish drivers so bad (in general) is that, while drivers in other european countries constantly break the law, they are aware they are doing it, while in Ireland they seem they arent.

Years ago, I use to stop beside drivers (while on my motorbike) after they would do, for instance, and illegal turn, and by listening to their answer I could tell they honestly didnt have a clue that what they did was wrong.

Two examples happen right where I live and it happens every day. So I live besides the beacon hospital, if you are coming from Ballaly and want to go to the beacon hotel you cannot turn right because there is a continuous line on the road, well, very often someone would try to make a right turn, even if the other lane is full of cars, and they will not move despite holding up the traffic, they will stay there no matter what, if you are behind him/her and beep, then they give you the looks, if you are on the other side and dont let space for them to turn, they will give you the looks, I can only think that this type of behaviour happens because that person does not know he is not allow to make a right turn, otherwise I really dont understand why you would do something like that.

Other examples, are turning left/right while the right/left traffic light is red, not yielding to incoming traffic when joining a motorway etc. These are basic stuff, but they still dont seem to get it, and dont even get me started with the lane marking in roundabout etc, they just dont seem to get it right, ever!!

CJhaughey

I think most bad driving is related to wilful ignorance and lack of meaningful enforcement.

To me it seems that enforcement where it occurs is mostly related to either tax/insurance checkpoints where the state could be losing money or speeding where the state gains money.

In terms of modifying driver behaviour by upskilling and enforcing traffic rules there seems to be little or no appetite by the PTB to make changes in a positive manner.

The RSA throws a bit of money at some radio/TV ads but that's largely the only way they try and make a difference.

Actually posting a Garda at known points like the one mentioned at the Beacon hospital and pulling people and fining/warning them would be a start.
But there isn't much money in it for the Gov't and as such it won't happen.

Wonda-Boy

I for one think the standard of driving in Ireland is absolutely piss poor. I have not travelled the seven seas and I am sure there are other countries that are just as bad if not worse but seriously the amount of near misses I see and general low standard of driving is shocking.

Lumen

I find Irish drivers in the main slow, observant, predictable and courteous, with a couple of exceptions.

1. People who pull out of side roads and crawl up to speed, forcing vehicles on the main road to brake.
2. Friday evenings.

Of course there's always the one in a thousand who pull out of a side road or driveway without looking, or switch lanes without checking their mirrors.

listermint

Just 1 question,

Where is the OP pulling this assertion from exactly ?

Bohrio

Lumen wrote: »

I find Irish drivers in the main slow, observant, predictable and courteous, with a couple of exceptions.

This, I found courteousness to be a problem more than a positive skill.

I have seen drivers stop in the middle of the road to let a pedestrian cross even though it is not a pedestrian crossing area, or stopping for another car attempting to do an illegal u turn, or stopping to let a car join the road despite first, being the last car and having no other cars behind (which means that there is really no need to stop anyway since once you pass the other car would have been able to turn) and second he shouldnt have to anyway since he has preference. These are just a few of many examples where I believe being polite doesnt help

I think that courteousness should have very little room in driving, first, follow the rules of the road, and then be courteous if you want as long as this doesnt affect other drivers, not the other way around!

Johnboner

listermint wrote: »

Just 1 question,

Where is the OP pulling this assertion from exactly ?

Motorcyclists are over-represented in collision statistics in Ireland: they represent less than 2% of licensed vehicles but 10% of road deaths. They are six times more likely to be killed on Irish roads than any other road user.

According to the road collision factbook (PDF), 29 motorcyclists were killed and 494 injured on Irish roads in 2007. According to OECD figures, a motorcyclist is two to three times more likely to be killed in Ireland than in other European country.

It is from the rsa website

Johnboner

Interesting fact is that most collisions are single vehicle not involving other road users.

JamboMac

Since I've seen motorcyclist friend of mine actually lodged in a tree, I think you can't blame most of the accidents on us. I think some motorcyclist take unnecessary risks at times.

Johnboner

JamboMac wrote: »

Since I've seen motorcyclist friend of mine actually lodged in a tree, I think you can't blame most of the accidents on us. I think some motorcyclist take unnecessary risks at times.

True, but that happens in every country.

Chiorino

It might be just me but I think there is a horrible inconsistency with the quality of road surfaces, especially on major roads.

The stretch of the M50 south between J3 and J5 (M1 to Finglas) has always felt very uneven to me but is fine once you pass Finglas. Same could be said about the N3/M3.

Huge stretches of roads seem to be surfaced with different grades of tarmac, some ultra smooth, some so rough you think the chippings were thrown at the road by hand.

GBX

JamboMac wrote: »

Since I've seen motorcyclist friend of mine actually lodged in a tree, I think you can't blame most of the accidents on us. I think some motorcyclist take unnecessary risks at times.

99% of road users take risks - bikers included. Check out the dash cam thread in the motors section and you will see an awful amount of cars breaking red lights, dangerous overtaking, tailgating, speeding etc.
The nature of motorcycling brings danger straight off because we are exposed whilst on our bikes - but we are not necessarily the most dangerous road users.
Nor is Ireland the most dangerous country :rolleyes:

Lumen

Lumen wrote: »

I find Irish drivers in the main slow, observant, predictable and courteous, with a couple of exceptions.

1. People who pull out of side roads and crawl up to speed, forcing vehicles on the main road to brake.
2. Friday evenings.

Of course there's always the one in a thousand who pull out of a side road or driveway without looking, or switch lanes without checking their mirrors.

Friday Evenings..... Surely the worst time to be on the road is a Sunday. It seems everyone forgets how to drive or obey traffic signs and road markings on a Sunday.

Lumen

Bohrio wrote: »

This, I found courteousness to be a problem more than a positive skill.

I have seen drivers stop in the middle of the road to let a pedestrian cross even though it is not a pedestrian crossing area, or stopping for another car attempting to do an illegal u turn, or stopping to let a car join the road despite first, being the last car and having no other cars behind (which means that there is really no need to stop anyway since once you pass the other car would have been able to turn) and second he shouldnt have to anyway since he has preference. These are just a few of many examples where I believe being polite doesnt help

I think that courteousness should have very little room in driving, first, follow the rules of the road, and then be courteous if you want as long as this doesnt affect other drivers, not the other way around!

I understand your point, but having commuted by scooter for a couple of years in London, an experience that really never got much better than slightly terrifying, I'll take bumbling courteousness over aggressive impatience any day.

Bohrio

Lumen wrote: »

I understand your point, but having commuted by scooter for a couple of years in London, an experience that really never got much better than slightly terrifying, I'll take bumbling courteousness over aggressive impatience any day.

Me too but

I would take neither, aggressiveness is worse. My intention was not to compare them both.

None of them should be present on the road, courteousness a bit more obviously.

Kat1170

On huge parts of the continent many bikes are completely off the road for months at a time due to the weather, I'd say far bigger % of all year round bikers here could be part of the reason.

Bohrio

Kat1170 wrote: »

On huge parts of the continent many bikes are completely off the road for months at a time due to the weather, I'd say far bigger % of all year round bikers here could be part of the reason.

I dont know, maybe, I no longer use my bike all year round, but, when I did, I honestly felt every trip was like a video game where everyone out there was there to get me and my goal was to survive...

Kat1170

That's what I mean, if your bike is off the road 4/6 months of the year, you are that much less likely to be caught up in an accident.

Hotblack Desiato

Johnboner wrote: »

Motorcyclists are over-represented in collision statistics in Ireland

Show me a country where they are not.

your OP is BS unless you can substantiate that Ireland is more dangerous for MCs than other countries are for MCs. [Citation needed]

I'm not saying you're wrong - Irish cagers are not omniscient gods - but you need to substantiate your claim.

In 20+ years of riding all over Europe there are two times I've encountered what I can only call homicidal drivers :

1. early 1996 on the way home from a bike show in Belfast, winter and dark on the old N1 and I was dazzled by the oncoming headlights, slowed down to an appropriate speed, some goon whizzed past me through some S-bends and nearly rammed me off the road. Lesson learned - command your lane.

2. 1997 - following the coast road on the south of France east into Italy - on the Italian side there was a twisty mountain road which eventually led into a tunnel - some git in a jeep was on a mission to tailgate me as close as possible (ffs there was a queue of cars in front of me, so no possibility of going faster) the c**t even started honking at me, there must have been abnormal mental processes at work there. I took the first opportunity to pull over and 'get the crazy ahead of me' instead of behind.

These days if a cager did something potentially harmful I hadn't anticipated I'd be wondering why. You can't avoid everything but through training and experience a huge proportion of harmful actions of other road users can be anticipated and avoided.

Kat1170 wrote: »

That's what I mean, if your bike is off the road 4/6 months of the year, you are that much less likely to be caught up in an accident.

The safest riders are year-round riders, especially in countries with changeable weather.

worded

Car drivers don't indicate I find, it's so selfish.

Unlike the continent a lot of car drivers have never been on a motor bike and have no idea how difficukt it is. Some drivers just want to be in front of the smaller thing in front of them

A female motor bike driver told me it's the female car drivers that are the worst - her words, not mine

sonyvision

I think the main issue are people using the roads.

So my commute is from Lucan to Santry daily. Some times I take the car others I take the bike. All well and good. This morning I had the car and using lane 1 of the N4 I came on by supervalue going towards the M50. In Line 2 there was a brown passat estate, to my horror he was watching a video on his phone while trying to drive.

His attitude when I proceeded to ask him through the open window was his video so important he couldn't wait. "Sure what harm is it causing you pal"

Why people believe in driving in lane 2/3 and not using lane 1 when it is totally empty I will never know.

Johnboner

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Show me a country where they are not.

your OP is BS unless you can substantiate that Ireland is more dangerous for MCs than other countries are for MCs. [Citation needed]

I'm not saying you're wrong - Irish cagers are not omniscient gods - but you need to substantiate your claim.

In 20+ years of riding all over Europe there are two times I've encountered what I can only call homicidal drivers :

1. early 1996 on the way home from a bike show in Belfast, winter and dark on the old N1 and I was dazzled by the oncoming headlights, slowed down to an appropriate speed, some goon whizzed past me through some S-bends and nearly rammed me off the road. Lesson learned - command your lane.

2. 1997 - following the coast road on the south of France east into Italy - on the Italian side there was a twisty mountain road which eventually led into a tunnel - some git in a jeep was on a mission to tailgate me as close as possible (ffs there was a queue of cars in front of me, so no possibility of going faster) the c**t even started honking at me, there must have been abnormal mental processes at work there. I took the first opportunity to pull over and 'get the crazy ahead of me' instead of behind.

These days if a cager did something potentially harmful I hadn't anticipated I'd be wondering why. You can't avoid everything but through training and experience a huge proportion of harmful actions of other road users can be anticipated and avoided.




The safest riders are year-round riders, especially in countries with changeable weather.

Ummm what? Read my post I have quoted RSA, do you really think RSA and OECD would lie? Look at the figuress yourself they are on the RSA website. It doesn't matter how long you were riding a bike, facts cannot be argued.

BaronVon

I don't necessarily think Ireland is exceptionally more dangerous for biking, but I would make a few points:

1) I would disagree with some the RSA findings. Those figures would include 15 year old on motorbikes, riders having never been licensed or insured etc, not representative of the biking community.

2) Narrow roadways lined with trees means if a biker comes off a bike, he rarely gets the opportunity to slide to rest, he usually hits something first, normally causing serious injury/death. Not to mention the presence of a tree on the apex of nearly every bend in the country!

3) Not enough bikers means car drivers aren't used to bikes like they are in other countries, so not as aware of them. Also, road planning and design, as well as the law, doesn't take motorcycles into account, leaving bikers more exposed.

4) Driver/rider training. Vast majority of accidents are caused by driver error. Enforcement isn't great either, and certainly not consistent.

bladespin

This is because there is a huch higher chance of serious injury for a motorcyclist in a crash, mot because we crash more lol.





You have to understand the dynamics of a motorcycle to comprehend this, motorcycle braking can often result in a fall in an emergency situation (locking the front), it requires far more skill to ride a motorcycle than a car imo (I drive both), there's also a significant argument about our roads here, potholes as mentioned, overbanding mid corner (just daft when you need grip most) not to mention much, slurry, diesel and gravel spillage everywhere, dangerous for any vehicle nevermind one with such a small road contact as a bike.

Also, I can't believe Ireland is the most dangerous place to ride a bike, my experience would sit it in the mid, upper end if safe riding countries; Greece and Italy were certainly a lot more 'exciting' for me.

CalamariFritti

There are quite a lot of dangerous drivers on the road. Of those dangerous drivers I'd say half of them either think they're doing it right or simply don't care and the other half have no idea what they're doing.

Generally speaking people don't give driving the respect it deserves. With respect I mean awareness of how quickly and easily things can get out of control when you're propelling a 2 ton block of metal around. People are laissez faire about driving, it'll be grand, whats the big deal. So they are on the phone, do their make-up, attend their kids. For the most part thats grand, the odd fender bender, but it doesn't take into the equation a quick, more difficult to see, no protection vehicle like a motorbike.

I've been riding a bike in a few countries, not many but a few, and I feel the most vulnerable here at home. Just from what I experience every day on the road.

worded

Was reading the dash cam thread and ended up on YouTube a few times.

Paddetrians grtting run over, road rage, near ones, cars loosing traction etc

Driving is the most dangerous thing we do every day

Careful out there everyone

worded

CalamariFritti wrote: »

There are quite a lot of dangerous drivers on the road. Of those dangerous drivers I'd say half of them either think they're doing it right or simply don't care and the other half have no idea what they're doing.

Generally speaking people don't give driving the respect it deserves. With respect I mean awareness of how quickly and easily things can get out of control when you're propelling a 2 ton block of metal around. People are laissez faire about driving, it'll be grand, whats the big deal. So they are on the phone, do their make-up, attend their kids. For the most part thats grand, the odd fender bender, but it doesn't take into the equation a quick, more difficult to see, no protection vehicle like a motorbike.

I've been riding a bike in a few countries, not many but a few, and I feel the most vulnerable here at home. Just from what I experience every day on the road.

I was a motor bike driver for years and as a car driver I can observe more via a windscreen and I'm flabbergasted at the selfish driving I see daily. Unlike the continent most people never drove a motor bike and have no clue about them.

MOTO drivers are usually way more skilled, you can't fall off a car as my
MOTO mech used to say

Last thing you smell is the oil on the road

Hotblack Desiato

Johnboner wrote: »

Ummm what? Read my post I have quoted RSA, do you really think RSA and OECD would lie? Look at the figuress yourself they are on the RSA website. It doesn't matter how long you were riding a bike, facts cannot be argued.

You have provided no link and no figures.

And if you think the RSA don't spin facts and figures to suit their agenda, that's pretty naive on your part.

Elemonator

Try driving in ****ing Turkey.........

Hotblack Desiato

worded wrote: »

I was a motor bike driver for years and as a car driver I can observe more via a windscreen

Wow. In any car you can see a lot LESS. No pillars causing blind spots on a bike.

That's before you go into the fogged up windows, or phone or sat nav stuck on the screen at eye level. Etc.

Saw a BL Mini the other day, between N plate and discs the entire nearside third of the screen was obscured!

underwaterdog

I don't think anyone here has actually quoted a source...

BlinkingLights

Overall, Ireland actually has the 5th lowest road death rate per head of population in the EU.

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/sites/roadsafety/files/pdf/observatory/historical_evol_popul.pdf

We also drive the highest number of km per person per year.

If motorbikes are over represented, it's a very specifically motorcycle issue rather than general driving.

Add Ireland's large proportion of twisty roads and regular driving rain and I think you might have your answer.

Motorbikes here aren't a huge % of road users but the road death rate is also very low so you can quite easily get a higher % of deaths if the average rate is very low.

You'd need to see a number of fatal accidents per motorcycle user population rather than as a % of road deaths to get an accurate picture.

Also I think while many of the people on this forum care about how they ride and see responsible and exemplary motorcyclists a % out there are pretty reckless.

I was passed on the M8 in dense fog a few days ago by 4 NI reg motorbikes who were doing way higher speed than 120km/h in really bad conditions.

I'm also regularly passed by motorbikes weaving in fast moving traffic on multi lane roads here and I've been passed on narrow roads on blind corners by some moron who seems to think he's in a motorbike race.

Again, I'm not saying for a moment that any of the posters here are anything other than responsible as otherwise they would be be concerned enough to post here. However we need way better motorcycle training and probably more than many countries as we have a lot of very poor weather conditions that create visibility issues and very greasy road surfaces and plenty of roads with stone walls that would do serious damage to a biker coming off.

It's not like we can modify historical rural roads and walls. We need to ride and drive appropriately to the conditions.

Also because bikes are so rare on the roads here anyway, a lot of car drivers don't know much about how to interact with them properly.

worded

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Wow. In any car you can see a lot LESS. No pillars causing blind spots on a bike.

That's before you go into the fogged up windows, or phone or sat nav stuck on the screen at eye level. Etc.

Saw a BL Mini the other day, between N plate and discs the entire nearside third of the screen was obscured!

Disagree in my case having been both a MOTO driver and car driver.

I've moved my car ins / NCT holder away from the corner to max
Viewing area.

Windscreen is kept clean and it rapidly defrosts.

I believe I have a better view of the road now versus a MOTO:

I give lots of space to bikes as I'm very aware of them and I'm as predictable and corteous as possible all road users. I do my best

BlinkingLights

Considering that the whole thing could be checked with a live database there's no need for any of those disks and even if they were kept, they could be 1/3 the size or less.

AlekSmart

BlinkingLights wrote: »

Considering that the whole thing could be checked with a live database there's no need for any of those disks and even if they were kept, they could be 1/3 the size or less.

Very true,just look at our former Colonial rulers for example,then compare it with the Irish windscreen/back window..Tax,NCT,Insurance,Disabled Sticker,Parking Permit and the more recent,but rapidly increasing occurence,of an L plate AND an N plate together....with the L backways and the N on it's side.....:D

galwaytt

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You have provided no link and no figures.

And if you think the RSA don't spin facts and figures to suit their agenda, that's pretty naive on your part.

They do spin facts to suit their raison d'être sometimes, particularly on 'speeding'.

amacca

Chiorino wrote: »

It might be just me but I think there is a horrible inconsistency with the quality of road surfaces, especially on major roads.

The stretch of the M50 south between J3 and J5 (M1 to Finglas) has always felt very uneven to me but is fine once you pass Finglas. Same could be said about the N3/M3.

Huge stretches of roads seem to be surfaced with different grades of tarmac, some ultra smooth, some so rough you think the chippings were thrown at the road by hand.

Most issues Ive ever had were due to this.......loose chippings on the road in unexpected locations are also a nightmare ... I usually slow down to a crawl as it can be like riding on marbles.. a load of chippings sprayed out from the middle of two lanes by car in front approaching a roundabout caused my front to washout coming on to roundabout and resulted in a lowside at comically low speed straight into the roundabout...Im lucky nothing was on the roundabout and I can see the "funny" side of it

Johnboner

amacca wrote: »

Most issues Ive ever had were due to this.......loose chippings on the road in unexpected locations are also a nightmare ... I usually slow down to a crawl as it can be like riding on marbles.. a load of chippings sprayed out from the middle of two lanes by car in front approaching a roundabout caused my front to washout coming on to roundabout and resulted in a lowside at comically low speed straight into the roundabout...Im lucky nothing was on the roundabout and I can see the "funny" side of it

Yep, similar situation happened to me. There was lot of dirt on the road from the tractors, it looked like he was transporting **** and it fell outside the trailer all the way. I was going at 100 km/h on an N road with cars in front so didn't have much time to react but managed to avoid by moving to the side, but it was close. Pretty sure I would have went down due to the amount of it on the road, now I avoid N roads as much as possible and take motorways if I have a chance, it's just that stupid 70c toll that's annoying.

What makes Ireland the most dangerous country for motorcycles , I don't know tell us?

You've given absolutely no facts apart from telling us what the RSA website says.

Send me links to the equivalent statistic in every other European country for a start, break it down by driver numbers on the road and then we can have a discussion once you have proved your statement. Until then it sounds like a made up fact.

dashcamdanny

Judging by the amount of experienced motorcyclists on this thread who drive a motorcycle instead of riding a motorcycle, it makes me wonder if they even have a bike.

Cian_ok

We have bigger bikes in Ireland.

I looked at the numbers of bikes licenced in Ireland (on the CSO website) for the last 9 years and compared this to the UK.

23% of irish bikes are over 1000cc, in the UK it's 15% over 1000cc.
Only 28% of irish bikes are under 250 cc, in the UK 31% are under 150cc, and 42% under 400cc.

So the average bike in Ireland is a lot bigger than the UK.

Bohrio

Cian_ok wrote: »

We have bigger bikes in Ireland.

I looked at the numbers of bikes licenced in Ireland (on the CSO website) for the last 9 years and compared this to the UK.

23% of irish bikes are over 1000cc, in the UK it's 15% over 1000cc.
Only 28% of irish bikes are under 250 cc, in the UK 31% are under 150cc, and 42% under 400cc.

So the average bike in Ireland is a lot bigger than the UK.

I think that the number difference between Ireland and and UK is vast, I have tried to get proper numbers but I think its 1.3 million Motorcycle users in the UK vs 500 motorcycles registered in Ireland per year?

Sure that can't be right, can it?

bmwguy

Some drivers are poor, unobservant. Car drivers. Some motorcyclists are absolute nuts, the risks I see them taking and unbelievable speeds. Not all of course, but some. It's as if they don't know they are not as visible as cars.

This is coming from someone taking motorbike lessons in next few weeks with a view to getting one.

BlackWizard

I find Irish drivers to be good. So I would suspect it's something to do with the roads and cultural issues.

Hotblack Desiato

BlackWizard wrote: »

So I would suspect it's something to do with the roads and cultural issues.

Is what? The completely unsubstantiated claim in the OP with no link and no figures that has now become an 'alternative fact'?