Clare Daly claims unapproved landing by RAF Hercules is Utterly Shocking

Storm 10

Crusties at it again

http://news.sky.com/story/raf-in-utterly-shocking-unauthorised-hercules-plane-landing-in-ireland-10733569

Negative_G

If this was a planned tech stop as part of a training flight, and no clearance was sought, then it absolutely should be brought up at a diplomatic level.

Regardless of the purpose of the flight, protocol is there to be followed.

This goes for any foreign state aircraft. You can be absolutely sure that the reverse would happen if an Irish state aircraft landed in the UK, or any other nation, without proper clearance.

nhunter100

Storm 10 wrote:

Crusties at it again

'Crusties' is that a new nickname for the RAF?

LordSutch

Utterly Shocking this by the RAF

"The Hercules transport plane came down in County Clare but clearance from the Dublin government was not sought in advance".

"Clare Daly, an Independent politician from Dublin, revealed the information in a parliamentary question and called for closer scrutiny of NATO planes in Ireland".

"The British Embassy in Dublin has since told Irish officials that the Hercules was unarmed, was not gathering intelligence or on an exercise or operation and landed in Shannon to refuel".

"Twenty-one other RAF flights followed the correct procedures to land in Ireland last year".

sdanseo

Inappropriate, wrong and preventable. But not "utterly shocking".

A nuclear meltdown is utterly shocking. Or maybe the Eirjet that landed in RAF Eglington instead of Derry a few years back. That might just scrape shocking.

Clare Daly is an absolute weapon who will pick up any piece of news she can spin to make herself look good.

Growler!!!

sdanseo wrote: »

Or maybe the Eirjet that landed in RAF Eglington instead of Derry a few years back. That might just scrape shocking.

Clare Daly is an absolute weapon who will pick up any piece of news she can spin

Eirjet landed in Ballykelly. I've called Eglinton before and called it Derry Tower, the controller was kind enough to correct me:D

Clare is gas, she never mentions her father was a Colonel in the Defence Forces!!!

JCX BXC

Why do people/the media even take any notice?

People complain about Enda and FG/FF, when the worst of the parliament is herself Clare Daly and Mick Wallace.

I come across all these videos on YouTube talking about how Shannon is the next target and Ireland is guaranteed an attack blah blah blah because of unarmed chartered civilian aircraft with American troops on board on a fuel stop find it hard to believe they believe what they're saying. Think of this logically, where would you rather target, a small piece of Co. Clare in the West of Ireland where the effect will be minimal, or a major city?

Of course for the politicians anything to push their agenda works.

Negative_G

JCX BXC wrote: »

Why do people/the media even take any notice?

People complain about Enda and FG/FF, when the worst of the parliament is herself Clare Daly and Mick Wallace.

I come across all these videos on YouTube talking about how Shannon is the next target and Ireland is guaranteed an attack blah blah blah because of unarmed chartered civilian aircraft with American troops on board on a fuel stop find it hard to believe they believe what they're saying. Think of this logically, where would you rather target, a small piece of Co. Clare in the West of Ireland where the effect will be minimal, or a major city?

Of course for the politicians anything to push their agenda works.

Thank the knuckle dragging oxygen thiefs who use their vote to elect these Neanderthals to public office. The same can be said for a plethora of other TD's.

Until we move away from small minded parish pump politics, people like Claire Daly will always get in.

nhunter100

Negative_G wrote:

Until we move away from small minded parish pump politics, people like Claire Daly will always get in.

Can you name one TD who doesn't take heed of 'parish pump politics'? They all act with a view to getting reelected. Independent or party affiliated makes no difference.

Negative_G

nhunter100 wrote: »

Can you name one TD who doesn't take heed of 'parish pump politics'? They all act with a view to getting reelected. Independent or party affiliated makes no difference.

This isn't the politics cafe, so you'll forgive me for not beginning an off topic discussion with you.

nhunter100

Negative_G wrote:

This isn't the politics cafe, so you'll forgive me for not beginning an off topic discussion with you.

You brought up the issue of parish pump politics not I.

Negative_G

nhunter100 wrote: »

You brought up the issue of parish pump politics not I.

My response was to another poster, not you. I thought that was quite clear. Evidently not.

nhunter100

Negative_G wrote:

My response was to another poster, not you. I thought that was quite clear. Evidently not.

Jaysus someone is tetchy. You're on a public forum, if you only want specific people posting replies I suggest you use the PM function.

Advbrd

Negative_G wrote: »

My response was to another poster, not you. I thought that was quite clear. Evidently not.

So you were in a private discussion. I thought it was a discussion forum. I get confused sometimes.

RustyNut

The plane should have been detained permanently to remind them to do the paperwork,cross the t's, dot the i's etc. We're not one of their colonies any more.

Negative_G

nhunter100 wrote: »

Jaysus someone is tetchy. You're on a public forum, if you only want specific people posting replies I suggest you use the PM function.

Not wanting to engage in an off topic discussion doesn't equal tetchy. You can discuss parish pump politics to your hearts content in the Politics Cafe forum.

I'm under no obligation to indulge you. I was polite enough to say this you but you seem intent on having the last word, which tells me all I need to know.

Advbrd wrote: »

So you were in a private discussion. I thought it was a discussion forum. I get confused sometimes.

Some people are more easily confused than others. I wouldn't worry about it.

Stealthfins

Big deal a plane landed so what.

They're hardy going to bomb Foynes down the river and Tarbert fck it sure Moneypoint might be blitzed too.
Kilrush marina on the way out FCK off lol
These knuckle draggers should get out of Shannon and stop drawing attention to the place.

The locals think those crusties are a shower of.......

Anyhow I'm sure plane spotter's would be disappointed they missed it, I love watching those planes landing and taking off they have a lovely brrrrr sound.

Allinall

Unauthorized landing inside the perimeter of Shannon airport?

Daly should know all about that.

nhunter100

Negative_G wrote:

I'm under no obligation to indulge you. I was polite enough to say this you but you seem intent on having the last word, which tells me all I need to know.

Of course you're under no obligation to respond to anyone, although I would question your understanding of the word polite. As for last words not important to me at all. So you may have them since it seems to be of such importance to you.

Cianmcliam

RustyNut wrote: »

The plane should have been detained permanently to remind them to do the paperwork,cross the t's, dot the i's etc. We're not one of their colonies any more.

Still though we can hardly send our crop dusters up when the Russian airforce is testing the Western Atlantic air defences. Happy to let them land if needed when they are keeping our coast Putin free.

nhunter100

Cianmcliam wrote:

Still though we can hardly send our crop dusters up when the Russian airforce is testing the Western Atlantic air defences. Happy to let them land if needed when they are keeping our coast Putin free.

Percisely what do you think is going to happen if Russian planes are flying around off the west /north west coast. They don't need to test defenses. These actions are only to annoy the British and Nato.

RustyNut

Cianmcliam wrote: »

RustyNut wrote: »

The plane should have been detained permanently to remind them to do the paperwork,cross the t's, dot the i's etc. We're not one of their colonies any more.

Still though we can hardly send our crop dusters up when the Russian airforce is testing the Western Atlantic air defences. Happy to let them land if needed when they are keeping our coast Putin free.

If the Russians make unauthorized landings we should detain their aircraft as well.

Cianmcliam

nhunter100 wrote: »

Percisely what do you think is going to happen if Russian planes are flying around off the west /north west coast. They don't need to test defenses. These actions are only to annoy the British and Nato.

Not sure what your point is but if it is that we should prefer hostile warplanes trespassing on our airspace at will rather than friendly aircraft who ask permission then, OK.

Cianmcliam

RustyNut wrote: »

If the Russians make unauthorized landings we should detain their aircraft as well.

It sounds like it wasn't pre-arranged rather than being without permission. You can't just rock on down the runway of a commercial airport without ATC clearance. Hardly 'shocking' or crime of the century.

nhunter100

Cianmcliam wrote:

Not sure what your point is but if it is that we should prefer hostile warplanes trespassing on our airspace at will rather than friendly aircraft who ask permission then, OK.

Since we are in theory neutral, how do you define hostile versus friendly since to the best of my knowledge no aircraft from any nation has intentionally attacked the Irish state. ( there was an instance during WW2 where a German bomber got lost and attacked Dublin, all must have been forgiven as Dev sent the condolences of the Irish State to Germany when Hitler died).

Cianmcliam

nhunter100 wrote: »

Since we are in theory neutral, how do you define hostile versus friendly since to the best of my knowledge no aircraft from any nation has intentionally attacked the Irish state. ( there was an instance during WW2 where a German bomber got lost and attacked Dublin, all must have been forgiven as Dev sent the condolences of the Irish State to Germany when Hitler died).

Aircraft that fly pre-arranged routes, stay in touch with ATC, have transponders on and patrol the airspace for unauthorised intruders are friendly. Aircraft that lodge no flight plan, try to evade radar, have transponders turned off and do not make contact with ATC would be considered more hostile.

RustyNut

I never said shoot the pilot but if a foreign military doesn't respect our rules and regs there should be a harsh penalty.

SEPT 23 1989

Without the RAF that toerag would be speaking German locked up in a camp

RIP Singapore 1941

nhunter100

SEPT 23 1989 wrote:

Without the RAF that toerag would be speaking German locked up in a camp

Think you'll find it was Hitler turning his attention away from Britain towards the then Soviet Union that sealed the 3rd Reichs fate.

RustyNut

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Without the RAF that toerag would be speaking German locked up in a camp

RIP Singapore 1941

As opposed to speaking another foreign language imposed on us by who exactly?

Cianmcliam

nhunter100 wrote: »

Think you'll find it was Hitler turning his attention away from Britain towards the then Soviet Union that sealed the 3rd Reichs fate.

Don't know about that. If the Luftwaffe had continued bombing RAF airfields they would likely have weakened the RAF enough to allow an invasion of the UK. If that happened then the US would have had no base to launch the invasion of France and Hitler could have had most of the western front personnel, oil and armour to handle the Soviets.

LordSutch

nhunter100 wrote: »

Think you'll find it was Hitler turning his attention away from Britain towards the then Soviet Union that sealed the 3rd Reichs fate.

Lets not forget what damage the the the RAF did to the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain

... we are very lucky to have the RAF as a means of air defence on our doorstep.

nhunter100

Cianmcliam wrote:

Don't know about that. If the Luftwaffe had continued bombing RAF airfields they would likely have weakened the RAF enough to allow an invasion of the UK. If that happened then the US would have had no base to launch the invasion of France and Hitler could have had most of the western front personnel, oil and armour to handle the Soviets.

It would be an interesting topic to explore, but suffice to say the seemingly endless supply of men and materials on the Soviet side was a major disadvantage to the Germans. Sorry way off topic, apologies.

gctest50

RustyNut wrote: »

If the Russians make unauthorized landings we should detain their aircraft as well.

Silly - you seem to be mistaking this for a real country - you know one with aircraft that drops stuff and fires thingys and other grown-up things

SEPT 23 1989

I think that the levelling of German cities had more of an impact

vicwatson

Cianmcliam wrote: »

It sounds like it wasn't pre-arranged rather than being without permission. You can't just rock on down the runway of a commercial airport without ATC clearance. Hardly 'shocking' or crime of the century.

Questions - How can it just land without it being pre arranged though? don't ATC/Airport authorities/IAA get a list of comings and goings on the day at any given airport (apart from emergencies of course), so have some Irish people equally not done a job here somewhere? Were the dept of defence or the IAA contacted?

Why was it given permission to land when it hadn't been pre-arranged, unless in case of emergency, did they declare an emergency?

Just wondering

nhunter100

SEPT 23 1989 wrote:

I think that the levelling of German cities had more an impact

It didn't, it just steeled the resolve, but killed huge numbers of civilians.

Cianmcliam

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I think that the levelling of German cities had more an impact

I don't know about that, the supposed precision bombing by the US airforce wasn't all that precise and it was the attacks on industry that had an impact more than the bombing of cities. Just like the UK cities were constantly bombed night and day yet they played a major part in the liberation of Europe.

Tenger

Right. Next post about who was responding to who will get a red card besdie their post. Any quibbling and it will be a short holiday from the forum. Stop behaviing like children.
Secondly, can we try and steer away from the political point scoring. Even if I thought some people were quite clever, such posts are for After Hours or Politics. A little discussion is fine but lets try to keep it centred on the topic itself

Tenger

Taking off my mod hat I think this post is the most important in the thread:

vicwatson wrote: »

Questions - How can it just land without it being pre arranged though? don't ATC/Airport authorities/IAA get a list of comings and goings on the day at any given airport........Were the dept of defence or the IAA contacted?

Why was it given permission to land when it hadn't been pre-arranged, unless in case of emergency, did they declare an emergency?.....

As it focus's on the topic itself and asks questions about the incident rather than getting sidetracked by the actions of the TD and the various opinions surrounding her.

Personally Considering the fact that the Spain Govt once glossed over the fact that Gibraltar based Royal Marines did a combat assault on a Spanish beach by mistake (missed their target by approx 500 meter's) I think the Irish Govt can just politely mention to the UK that we just want some advance notice next time so we can have the kettle on.


Off topic post script: re Operation SeeLowe in 1940, the lack of Destroyer support in the Kriegsmarine made any beach landing a risky move by the Germans as the Royal Navy had superiority in the Channel. German forces could not be protected from naval attack. The Norwegian campaign in early 1940 saw the German lose approx 40% of their destroyers, hamstringing their strength. This would plague the Germans for the rest of the war, leaving them having to rely on cruisers to screen battleships. (little known fact that, great to pull out when people talk about WWII) Especially as Hitler cancelled/delayed naval orders in 1940 flush with the feeling of victory.

cameramonkey

Anyone know where the C130 was coming from and going to?

Negative_G

vicwatson wrote: »

Questions - How can it just land without it being pre arranged though? don't ATC/Airport authorities/IAA get a list of comings and goings on the day at any given airport (apart from emergencies of course), so have some Irish people equally not done a job here somewhere? Were the dept of defence or the IAA contacted?

Why was it given permission to land when it hadn't been pre-arranged, unless in case of emergency, did they declare an emergency?

Just wondering

To the best of my knowledge, airport authorities and ATC are not responsible for policing this aspect of state flights. That responsibility is with the Dept of Foreign Affairs. ATC and the airport just provide a service.

it's quite possible that the Airport authorities send a return monthly/quarterly of all military/state movements and this is eventually forwarded to Foreign Affairs to cross reference with the overflight or landing applications received or processed.

Military and state aircraft have a unique identifier on their flight plan and will generally use "STS/STATE" in item 18 of the flight plan also. Over flight clearance information can and does appear in item 18 also.

ATS have access to all scheduled existing flight plans to/from their airport, in this case Shannon. A plan that's validated by eurocontrol can be accessed via the AFTN system. A copy of the flight plan is also forwarded to the aerodrome which is listed as an alternate.

Storm 10

Unofficially I heard it had engine problems as it had to stay in Shannon overnight hence the landing without diplomatic clearance, a lot of hot air about nothing.

Tenger

Storm 10 wrote: »

Unofficially I heard it had engine problems as it had to stay in Shannon overnight hence the landing without diplomatic clearance, a lot of hot air about nothing.

Thanks for that info. If this is true then we (the state) had a duty of care to accept any aircraft needing assistance. For a TD to raise such a fuss is trivial and makes us look childish.

Im nowhere near 100% sure, but I think if an armed aircraft had have declared an emergency our official position as a neutral country would require the state to impound the aircraft pending diplomatic wraggling.

arubex

cameramonkey wrote: »

Anyone know where the C130 was coming from and going to?

From Brize Norton, UK to Toronto, Canada

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmCi40e2amE

Rumoured to have been repatriation of the body of Madra Michael.

nhunter100

eatmyshorts wrote:

Like Comrade Daly herself.

To be fair Daly has highlighted many issues the public would not have otherwise being aware of. Don't really agree with her politics or live in her constituency but she seems to be passionate about certain issues which her electorate agree with.

eatmyshorts

EDITED

lawred2 wrote: »

any opinion on the incident itself?

A bit of paperwork admin overlooked in someone's department. Hardly end of the world stuff.

knucklehead6

arubex wrote: »

From Brize Norton, UK to Toronto, Canada

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmCi40e2amE

Rumoured to have been repatriation of the body of Madra Michael.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/remains-of-girl-back-in-canada-437047.html

According to The Examiner her remains were repatriated back in December.

If this was engine trouble/inflight emergency then Daly is bang out of order.

if this was a cockup and mistake then it needs to be highlighted, at the very least to give people a chance to learn from their mistakes and not give Daly any more ammunition.

arubex

knucklehead6 wrote: »

According to The Examiner her remains were repatriated back in December.

We don't know when ( or if ) it was the repatriation happened because there have been no official statements from the family.

Anyway, it seems that the Herk departed for Canada late on the 30th December having arrived on 28th. I don't know if that's strong evidence for an engine issue or not; wouldn't the obvious response been to have returned to Brize rather than head 5000km west?

This may be one of the incidents that will never be explained in detail especially since it was escalated to a diplomatic spat.

the_syco

I think the trespass into Shannon airport was disgraceful! And getting off with only a €1000 fine? I think jail time should have been handed down!

Well, enough about Clare Daly. Any news on why the plane landed?

Storm 10

Lovely new RAF A330 tanker aircraft training at Shannon today , carried out lots of touch and go arounds ,