IT Contractor new project means longer hours for no pay?

MagicIRL

Hi,

My girlfriend works for an IT consultancy in Dublin. Her contract has always been 7.5 hour days. 9am to 5.30pm with an hour lunch.

Recently she was assigned to a new project where he hours have jumped to 9am to 6pm, 30min lunch, on a customers site, with no increased payment for this additional time.

Is that legal? She was told she gets 3 additional non optional holidays (Good Friday and 2x Christmas) but that doesn't even come close to what working for even minimum wage would reward for the additional hours she'll work in a year.

Any and all advice appreciated. :-)

Mrs OBumble

MagicIRL wrote: »

IT consultancy ... Her contract has always been 7.5 hour days. 9am to 5.30pm with an hour lunch.

Is she a receptionist or similar on not much more than minimum wage?

If she is, then she's got something to be upset about - and should check that the extra hours don't put her under the minimum wage. And start looking for a new job.

But if she's an IT consultant ... a 7.5 hour day, in standard working hours only??? Haaaa, that's a good laugh, someone must have really liked her to give her a cushy number like that. How many extra hours did she do on average?

Zulu

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But if she's an IT consultant ... a 7.5 hour day, in standard working hours only??? Haaaa, that's a good laugh, someone must have really liked her to give her a cushy number like that. How many extra hours did she do on average?

This sadly.

Check the contract, but it's generally termed along the lines of "7.5 hours typical day". In reality a day is a day, and there'll be en expectation to work the extra.

I've contracted with civil service before and it was on a clock. The process there was you add up your hours and divide by 7 (which was the working day), and then bill that amount of days, so you were getting paid for the additional time. But that was very much the exception.

In private sector (esp on client site) it'll be "a day" so she either needs to get actively involved in the project planning, or negotiate a daily rate/salary that she's happy with for the hours shes putting in.

MagicIRL

It was a graduate position. Her contract says a work week of 37.5 hours. This was what she worked for approx a year on other projects before being assigned to this team on the customers premises.

Now her work week has increased with no additional compensation nor did she sign a new contract to agree to these new hours.

I'm just wondering what the story is because it seems very odd that you can agree to work one thing and then be force into something different.

Zulu

What contract is she on? Perm/Fixed Term/Daily Rate?

MagicIRL

Zulu wrote: »

What contract is she on? Perm/Fixed Term/Daily Rate?

It's a permenant contract. She works for Company A who then have her out on site for Customer B working on a project, so she doesn't get to negotiate her own daily rate etc as she's not a contractor herself although, in the eyes of Customer B, she is.

Stheno

There is most likely a clause in her contract that says that from time to time she may be required to work additional different hours depending on the company requirements

GreeBo

I disagree that this is "normal"
Her contract likely states "a typical day is 7.5 hours" and now she is being told "a typical day will be 8 hours" then thats a contract change.

Sure she probably works longer than that frequently, we all do, but this sounds like a change in the terms of her contract.

Likewise most contracts state "travel may be required occasionally", if you were suddenly told one morning that you would be in Turkmenistan for the next 5 years, I'd also consider that a change in terms..

emmallow

My job sounds very similar (although I wouldn't call myself a contractor) I work for a tech consultancy who send me out on project work to other client sites. Where it sounds slightly different is that my contract is ultimately with my employer rather than the client. If your gf is getting extra holidays working for this client does this mean the client is in charge of her contract? My compulsory holidays change as a result of the client locations (eg. if I'm in Ireland I get Paddy's day off but if I'm in England I work it) but this just comes out of my annual + bank holiday balance though - the number of holidays I get doesn't change.

Unfortunately, if it's anything like my place the extra hours are part and parcel of the job. If she's comfortable with it, I've heard of people using previous overtime worked as a reason for leaving early, but it's certainly not in any official capacity. Sounds like she might have been pretty lucky to get 7.5 hr days for so long in the first place - definitely unusual for me!

Zulu

Well then failing a clause in the contract as we've laid out above, she should track the extra hours she's required to put in over a month, and then approach her manager/hr. Set out that she understands that projects go off track and on occasion people need to put in extra effort - but that she's concerned that with this particular project the "occasion" seems to be the "norm" and that's not what is stipulated in her contract. And what are they prepared to do to fix it.

There isn't really anything else she can do, except walk. And frankly, if it's the culture in there, she probably needs to be prepared to walk.

Welcome to the world of consulting...

MagicIRL

GreeBo wrote: »

I disagree that this is "normal"
Her contract likely states "a typical day is 7.5 hours" and now she is being told "a typical day will be 8 hours" then thats a contract change.

Sure she probably works longer than that frequently, we all do, but this sounds like a change in the terms of her contract.

Likewise most contracts state "travel may be required occasionally", if you were suddenly told one morning that you would be in Turkmenistan for the next 5 years, I'd also consider that a change in terms..

This is our thinking also. Had she been told you're here for a month or two doing these hours you would understand, but his project runs pretty much indefinitely so she could (if she stayed with the company) be there for years.

I also question the lack of compensation. If 40 hours is now suddenly the norm, how is it OK to not pay her for her new work day?

76544567

Always get a definition of a day in your contract.
Eg 1 day = 7 hours.
It contractors have been insisting on the definition of a day for many years now.
It's just one line in a contract but makes all the difference to clarity.

Zulu

76544567 wrote: »

Always get a definition of a day in your contract.
Eg 1 day = 7 hours.
It contractors have been insisting on the definition of a day for many years now.
It's just one line in a contract but makes all the difference to clarity.

As a contractor I'm interested to know how oyu get around the "A typical day is x hours". Do you charge overtime for every hour over x?

GreeBo

Zulu wrote: »

As a contractor I'm interested to know how oyu get around the "A typical day is x hours". Do you charge overtime for every hour over x?

I'm sure her firm is charging the client for an 8 hour day...

Zulu

And your point?
There's a good chance her firm could be charging her out by hour. So what though?

ishotjr2

Bit of inverse ageism here , I can only talk from experience wrong or right. Ye need to earn your stripes especially in IT it is the type of game where there is usually mad deadlines. Once you learn how to manage deadlines and set expectations and get more confident with your skill the hours become more manageable.

I think long hours are all part of it and I do not think 9-6 is long hours, but each to his own. I think it totally depends on what she wants out of it.

dudara

I work in a similar situation and that is perfectly normal on projects. The hours worked depending on clients and busy times. Our contracts states that our typical work week is "XX hrs" but that additional hours may be required (or something to that effect).

I simply don't think of my job in terms of hours - it's days spent with the client. We're salaried, so thinking in terms of hourly paid simply doesn't come into it. It's the nature of consultancy. I protect my teams and I don't want anyone working crazy hours where not required, but to think that project work is a solid 37.5 hours only per week is a bit naive IMO

Mrs OBumble

Its a graduate role.

She needs to stop thinking like a wage worker. Seriously, throwing your toys over half an hour per day is very uncool.

Yes i know she half an hour down at lunchtime too - but most people struggle to fill an hours lunchbreak and end up working some of it anyways.

Focus on learning as much as she can, so she becomes a valuable employee and worth giving a raise to.

mighty magpie

FD?

MagicIRL

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Its a graduate role.

She needs to stop thinking like a wage worker. Seriously, throwing your toys over half an hour per day is very uncool.

Yes i know she half an hour down at lunchtime too - but most people struggle to fill an hours lunchbreak and end up working some of it anyways.

Focus on learning as much as she can, so she becomes a valuable employee and worth giving a raise to.

It's comes to a pretty penny when you look at it over a year.

I'm not looking for anecdotal evidence, more so on what is actually right and wrong.

I understand people may be experiencing similar in jobs and have put up with it, and figure it to be normal, but I'm looking for the 'lawful' truth so to speak. She agreed to X and is now working Y. Imagine if every second week was a six day week and you were paid for 5? That's what she's doing albeit working an hour a day extra. She should work for free because it's uncool to be treated fairly? What?

Is there an employment advice service or something that you can query for advice?

Zulu

Of course there is, talk to an employment lawyer.

But what's your end goal? As a grad to pick a fight with your employer on your first job? Fair or not, "lawfully" right or not, it won't end well for her. Sadly, we all work for companies that expect more. We're giving you real world advice and experience, from the coal face. If you want a Ronseal job; a 9-5 exactly like is says on the tin, quit and join a company that's either heavily unionised, or state run.

Civil service might suit better?

MagicIRL

I don't know her end goal. I guess just knowing what is and isn't "the law" so to speak.

At no point are you ever informed of these details so figured I'd ask here and see what people had to say!

I appreciate all the replies.

ishotjr2

Zulu wrote: »

Of course there is, talk to an employment lawyer.

But what's your end goal? As a grad to pick a fight with your employer on your first job? Fair or not, "lawfully" right or not, it won't end well for her. Sadly, we all work for companies that expect more. We're giving you real world advice and experience, from the coal face. If you want a Ronseal job; a 9-5 exactly like is says on the tin, quit and join a company that's either heavily unionised, or state run.

Civil service might suit better?

Exactly, I would not hire graduates for any roles because it takes so much work to train them and if a graduate is not willing to put in the hours that is kind of a slap in the face. Now I understand if that sounds ridiculous if you are approaching this from a traditional industry point of view. I think most people when I was starting out were doing 60-80 hrs per week apart from the really gifted. I am not recommending that I am talking about real world experience.

Zulu

I've no issue hiring grads! Like anyone else, they require training - but often they're more open to picking up "our way" of doing things which isn't a bad thing. You get what you pay for.

dar100

Her contract is with her employer not the company she is sub out to!! They can't change her contract like that

76544567

Zulu wrote: »

As a contractor I'm interested to know how oyu get around the "A typical day is x hours". Do you charge overtime for every hour over x?

I dont contract anymore, but when I did I always got the defintion of a day put in.
say it is 7.5 hours in a day, then come month end you add up all the hours and divide by 7.5 and thats the number of days.
What I used to do was for the first month work til all hours and when they got the bill they would complain and then ask me not to work any hours over 7.5 again. Funny though that they would be very happy with me working til all hours before they realized they had to pay me for them.

ThunbergsAreGo

dudara wrote: »

I work in a similar situation and that is perfectly normal on projects. The hours worked depending on clients and busy times. Our contracts states that our typical work week is "XX hrs" but that additional hours may be required (or something to that effect).

I simply don't think of my job in terms of hours - it's days spent with the client. We're salaried, so thinking in terms of hourly paid simply doesn't come into it. It's the nature of consultancy. I protect my teams and I don't want anyone working crazy hours where not required, but to think that project work is a solid 37.5 hours only per week is a bit naive IMO

This is sadly true and continues to disappoint me, working in IT Consultency myself. If the project cannot be done in the allotted days then it is undersold. Unfortunately it seems more and more this is the case with workers expected to consistently put in extra hours for no benefit,due to poor or unrealistic estimating

76544567

naughtb4 wrote: »

This is sadly true and continues to disappoint me, working in IT Consultency myself. If the project cannot be done in the allotted days then it is undersold. Unfortunately it seems more and more this is the case with workers expected to consistently put in extra hours for no benefit,due to poor or unrealistic estimating

When you are a contractor you learn to stand up for yourself very quickly.
Then when you go back into full time you tend to carry that on.
Too many companies want you to do extra work over and above and then pretend they are great by letting you off a few hours every now and then, but oin reality they are the winners in that deal. You give your work and time, they pay you. Skimming a bit off the top by them is not cool

eeguy

76544567 wrote: »

When you are a contractor you learn to stand up for yourself very quickly.

If you are valuable to them you can stand your ground.
When you're in a grad role it's usually not so simple.

Unfortunately you've only got 3 choices and all of them are bad.
1) Leave and find a new job.
2) Suck it up and work, learn as much as you can, then leave.
3) Call them out on their behaviour and demand more money. You might get lucky. If they say no, go back to option 1 or 2.

I will say this though. The difference between a professional and an amateur is that the professional will get the job done quick. If you're in a grad role, you're an amateur and I'd take the time to learn as much as you can. Learn to do the job 30 mins quicker and then cool your heels until 6.

76544567

And remember that the magic number for contracting is 2 years.
Once you have your two years experience you can go contracting.
Big money to be made contracting now.
Especially if you are prepared to go contracting in London.
Look at the likes of jobserve and filter out everything below £500 or 600 a day.
Op make that your motivation to put the head down and reach the magic number. Then the world is your oyster.

techdiver

The attitude of many posters here us why we are slowly eroding to a decent work/life balance in Ireland.

Now I'm in software development and in my 10+ years I've never had this issue. Yes, on occasion you might need to work extra hours etc, but that is the exception rather than the norm.

MagicIRL

MagicIRL wrote: »

It's a permenant contract. She works for Company A who then have her out on site for Customer B working on a project, so she doesn't get to negotiate her own daily rate etc as she's not a contractor herself although, in the eyes of Customer B, she is.

She should just leave really. She's a staff position with a body shop. Some people spend decades in such a job. Other realise best thing to do is leave.

If she has a years experience now & is on same deal as when hired she could double her money by going contracting properly.

Company A no doubt are experts at doing this ..... job hunting is only option IMO

ec18

It's pretty standard in IT consultancy's

mick4_2000

I also work in IT and would be required to but in a lot of extra hours. I don't have an issue with this but it's not part of my contract that I need to work an 8.5 hour day it's an understanding with my employer. I would be a lot less likely to put in the 50 or 60 hour weeks I sometimes do if I was being forced into an 8.5 hour day.

MagicIRL

Ok, so if 40 hour work week is now to be her standard, where does she stand regarding not being paid for the time?

She has to clock in and out so her 40 hours are set and recorded yet she is only paid for 37.5 of those which was her same wage prior to this project.

Stheno

MagicIRL wrote: »

Ok, so if 40 hour work week is now to be her standard, where does she stand regarding not being paid for the time?

She has to clock in and out so her 40 hours are set and recorded yet she is only paid for 37.5 of those which was her same wage prior to this project.

Has she checked her contract for that clause i mentioned?

Mrs OBumble

MagicIRL wrote: »

Ok, so if 40 hour work week is now to be her standard, where does she stand regarding not being paid for the time?

She has to clock in and out so her 40 hours are set and recorded yet she is only paid for 37.5 of those which was her same wage prior to this project.

Shes on a salary , not a wage.

If she wants a professional career, she (or maybe you?) needs to quit thinking like an hourly rate worker and see the bigger picture

If not, then feel free to get a job as a shop assistant etc.

heroics

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Shes on a salary , not a wage.

If she wants a professional career, she (or maybe you?) needs to quit thinking like an hourly rate worker and see the bigger picture

If not, then feel free to get a job as a shop assistant etc.

I have a professional career. Senior infrastructure engineer and get a salary. However I also get paid overtime. A little bit of give and take is fine. Working late here and there wouldn't bother claiming. But if they suggested that they wanted me to work an extra hour every day indefinitely then I would see that as a change of conditions.

You need to stop the old way of thinking that a salary is all you get paid no matter how many hours you work. A salary is paid based on a contracted no of hours per week. That way of thinking is how companies get away with employing less than the number of staff they need by putting pressure on employees to work unpaid hours. You can be sure the company is getting paid for the full time the OPs partner is onsite

Berserker

techdiver wrote: »

The attitude of many posters here us why we are slowly eroding to a decent work/life balance in Ireland.

Now I'm in software development and in my 10+ years I've never had this issue. Yes, on occasion you might need to work extra hours etc, but that is the exception rather than the norm.

Have you worked for the same company that whole time? It is a well known fact that developers, graduates in particular, who work for these consultancy firms tend to work long hours. It's expected and written into their contract. I disagree with it myself for performance reasons but it's the norm in these companies.

eeguy

techdiver wrote: »

The attitude of many posters here us why we are slowly eroding to a decent work/life balance in Ireland.

Now I'm in software development and in my 10+ years I've never had this issue. Yes, on occasion you might need to work extra hours etc, but that is the exception rather than the norm.

It's nothing new for grads to work long hours on a salary.
Doesn't matter if you're in engineering or IT or legal or nearly any other profession.
I don't mind working long hours if I'm learning something new as I work. If it's same sh*t, different day, then I'm out the door on the dot.

TheDoc

MagicIRL wrote: »

It was a graduate position. Her contract says a work week of 37.5 hours. This was what she worked for approx a year on other projects before being assigned to this team on the customers premises.

Now her work week has increased with no additional compensation nor did she sign a new contract to agree to these new hours.

I'm just wondering what the story is because it seems very odd that you can agree to work one thing and then be force into something different.

That's how being an onsite asset works unfortunately. She will likely have minor changes moving client to client and there is an expectation of some flexability.

Obviously her company make their $$$ from having assets onsite charging contracting rates. So it's like they wouldn't immediately offer a bump to her, considering they are likely making a higher margin on her onsite with this new client.

So there is nothing really illegal, and it's not uncommon. But that is not to say your GF should not speak with a manager about the contract she has, and if they need to redraw it up based on the new assignment.

That is assuming she also didn't acknowledge policy that denotes and specifies flexibility requirements based on resourcing.

Working as an onsite asset for a consultancy firm, is a decent start out I'd say if shes fresh from college. There will be challenges, different clients and environments and pressure to meet targets and deliverables. But I don' know anyone who wanted to, wants to, or plans to do that as a career.

So down to herself how big she thinks shes being ****ed over if she wants to address it or just let it slide until the point it gets ridiculous.

I know some people will be a bit "pwoah try a real days work" but in reality that is the contract she was offered, that was agreed, and the company are now extracting additional work from her, additional payment from a client, with no payment made to her.

If it was me, I'd probably approach my manager to discuss if a change of contract is required(but I'd check the other policies or T&C's I'd agreed to first)

I think sometimes people assume its someone storming into their boss and demanding stuff. Done right its a pretty casual no frills thing.

I just had some contractual amendments made this month due to a slight shift in workload. It's only slight, but I feel more comfortable having it in my contract and everyone being transparent about it. I go the extra mile enough as is.