Who needs a coach?

zico10

Huff n Puff wrote: »

As for the coaching part: I always find it strange that people go in search of a personal coach so early in their triathlon development.

Building on what was said in another thread here, I'd like to get people's thoughts on this.

Obviously as long as it was required legally, people can spend their money on whatever they like, but much like Huff n Puff has said I find it strange the number of first timers who feel they need a coach.

Adding to the list of people who I find it strange start looking for a coach are those who just want to finish an Ironman. Don Fink's book at a fraction of the cost would end up getting you the same result. I've a few more ideas about others who don't need a coach, but I'll keep it to myself for the moment.

After nearly 10 years in the sport, I acquired the services of a coach last year. Finding a coach that suited me was a long sounding out process and not one I rushed into. Perhaps some might still think I didn't need a coach, but it was getting to the stage where seconds were becoming crucial in my races and I didn't want to take the risk of going self coached for one more season and finishing the year disappointed.

So, who out there has/had a personal coach? And why did you feel the need to hire one?

Keeks

Is this not because people don't know what the difference is between coaching and teaching?

To me coaching is trying to getting a person to unlock the hidden potential what a person may have. They will usually already know what to do, but maybe not have a full understanding of How to get the extra out of themselves. Coaching usually a two way conversation with feedback either way

While teachings would be for someone who has no idea of what they are doing and wants someone to tell them what they need to do. This is always a one way conversation.

laurie88

coaches (who are worth their weight in gold) I have come to believe can add or see minute things that we could never.
Their knowledge and tech and being able to motivate you when you're empty is priceless.
Personally I know current and past All Blacks who have always sought coaches anywhere in the world to keep them at the top of their game. Owen Franks going to Mike Burgner, Dan Carter went back to his kicking guru and trainer to return for the 2015 rugby season. He sought both trainers and nutritional experts to not only get him back into the black jersey, but to get him back to being the best that he could be. Rob Hunt was part of this process. Rob Hunt is an Australian PT and coach who has helped others world wide to achieve their goals. He's a world class endurance athlete an advocate for many other ventures to help get the best out of people. Hosea Gear is another who found with coaching he could extend his rugby career by getting educated about his nutrition intake he increase his fitness level to even better than when he was in the black jersey
Niall Handley, Irish born amateur golfer who lives in NJ, is a highly rated player. His 14 yr old son gets coaching from other professional coaches even though his dad is more than capable. A coach, if you yourself are coachable, can help most educate themselves to becoming the best that they can be.
So yes, being coachable and pairing yourself with the right coach is for anyone who wants to be the best that they can be.

iAcesHigh

TBH, if one can afford I would always suggest hiring a coach for most of the sports. If the money is an issues, of course that there are probably better ROI solutions, but hiring a coach in our sport even as a beginner will more often than not help one to avoid unnecessary injuries, over/undertraining issues, allow the athlete to focus on trainings and not investigate what online/live tips he gets are valid and good and which are wrong and harmful + will get somebody who will proactively push and motivate him when he simply doesn't feel like training/racing - in short there is bigger chance he'll end up loving the sport than without one...

EC1000

iAcesHigh wrote: »

will get somebody who will proactively push and motivate him when he simply doesn't feel like training/racing - ...

If this is a factor in your first year or two, you're in the wrong sport and/or have the wrong motivation....

gerfmurphy

Me! I would love a coach.
given the improvements Mark gave me in swimming,
I know FA about training.
I taught I was going good
I was doing 3 sessions a week as I am now but with a proper focus its alot different and easier to progress.
I read in one of your posts about you recent cycling mentor and how it changed your focus a bit.

granted at your level its important maybe even nessesary
At a mid pack age grouper beginner it may not be so important but I think it will be benifical.
I also see the huge benefit in being answerable to someone as detailed above.
Who needs one? Anyone who wants to get as good as they can and doesnt have the knowledge , discipline or time to plan it themselves.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

zico10 wrote: »

Adding to the list of people who I find it strange start looking for a coach are those who just want to finish an Ironman. Don Fink's book at a fraction of the cost would end up getting you the same result. I've a few more ideas about others who don't need a coach, but I'll keep it to myself for the moment.

Why would you find that strange and what leads you to believe that following a Don Fink plan as opposed to a coach would give the same result, what data do you have to back up this view. I think a newbie to the sport could learn much more from a coach than someone who is around the sport longer who may think they know all the answers.

For someone finishing an Ironman is a big deal and could mean as much as someone looking to win their AG or qualify for Kona. Everyone's ambitions are different but could mean as much to the individual.

Also worth noting that coaching is not for some people as some are uncoachable. Give me someone who is willing to learn and listen with mediocre ability to someone slightly faster who think they have all the answers. Those are the people who really are wasting their time on coaching.

sconhome

Interesting topic.

I had a coach - well two of them who both offered to help with goals I wanted to achieve.

It wasn't necessarily that I needed them as a coach because I've always sorta figured my own way through. However, in both instances I benefitted mightily from having another pair of eyes and ears who helped me stay accountable to myself.

The first one I listened to 99% of the time and by setting me a target I worked to achieve those targets - I saw that coach as someone who actually tapped my inner competitive nature and got me to deliver. The 1% when I did not take their advice resulted in me not achieving my goal.

In a different vein the second coach did the same thing except my goals were not clearly defined and I had a whole lot of external factors affecting my ability to train and perform. So in that regard I did not benefit from the training coach aspect of a coach but got help in a life-coach manner (unintentionally)

At various times coached serve different purposes.

I think in the context of OP 'having' to get a coach as a newbie is akin to 'having' to get club gear or a slinky bike, or wheels. It's the thing that is done in certain circles, rightly or wrongly, and it is incumbent of those of us who are older and wiser and longer in sport to maybe help (when asked) with understanding the commitment you need to give to a coach to get the benefits other than just a handholding exercise - which for many is what it becomes - "I need you to structure my training so I can blame someone else when it goes wrong"

Kurt.Godel

No-one "needs" a coach, at any level in Triathlon.

Nor do they "need" power meters, TT bikes, watches, gels pinned to their bike, swim lessons, alcohol-free, warm weather training camps, lightweight runners... but any of these things can form part of a useful toolbox to draw from.

In my case I had an online coach for a couple of years, after a couple of years self-coached in Tri. The coach was extremely useful in shortening the time needed to figure out training loads, plans, etc. There's a lot of mistakes a beginner can make when training for Tri (and no Don Fink book for shorter distance AFAIK), and a coach can stop a lot of those mistakes before they are made. Tri has an older entry-level demographic compared to other sports, and a mistake pointed out beforehand can stop an injury that will lead to a year or more on the sidelines (time some of us can't afford!:)).

I'd recommend a coach/mentor/advisor that you trust, for anyone who can afford it. Of course, cutting out alcohol or losing weight may be a simpler step to faster times for many (myself included), but I haven't reached that level yet and so can only comment on using a coach for triathletes who still display a lot of obvious low-hanging fruit.

RacoonQueen

I always thought I was uncoachable and probably still am to an extent. I hired a run coach in 2013 - after my work commute went from 7 minute cycle each way to about an hour each way and I could no longer make it to club run sessions/was too tired for club run sessions after they cycle home.
I'd only been club training a couple of years and had been running before that but mostly, I was just running.

What being coached taught me that I couldn't learn from books that had generic programmes
* How to run hard on my own
* How to fit training into time I have
* Why I did the sessions I did (you can't ask a book the rationale behind a session) - this in turn taught me how to create a more effective training plan for myself and was probably the second most effective thing I got from a coach.

The most effective thing I got from a coach? How to recover/do recovery sessions and how not to beat myself up for bad sessions or for having a genuine reason for missing a session. How not to train when ill. How it is ok to either take a couple of days off or do easier recovery days when I am not feeling 100% or when I'm not sleeping well/not sleeping at all. So, how not to be too hard on myself for things outside my control.
In honesty, I would be happy to still work with him - but unless I have the time to give to a training plan, properly compiling my feedback and actually working with my coach, there is no point. I don't have that right now with other things going on and I'd get too stressed if I was missing sessions the coach had prescribed because I had to stay late in work or because I had an assignment I needed to submit etc

I'm not sure anyone is totally uncoachable, they just need to find the right coach. If someone thinks they know more than their coach does then they've chosen the wrong coach. I don't think it's essential, being in a club can teach you a lot of things but it probably depends on the club.

Macy0161

Since I decided to take up the sport, and joined a club, I've been doing coached swims. It's been really beneficial for me, who still has so much room to improve technique (which I believe is my real limiter).

I think I'd like an overall tri coach, but I don't have the time to commit to it. Maintaining a Family Life/ Work/ Training balance is hard enough, so I have to be flexible with my training to a degree that I don't believe would work with a coach (even if I could afford it). That also means I don't take up the run and bike coaching my club offers.

The one thing training wise that I am working on this winter and for this coming season is to try and manage my training stress, and listen to my body more. I didn't last winter and last season, and a lot of snuffles developed into infections that meant lost training and missed races as I just ploughed on with my plan regardless. I'm also experimenting with Training Peaks in that regard, to try and manage that better. I would expect that is something that a coach would do and remove that from my head space.

iAcesHigh

EC1000 wrote: »

If this is a factor in your first year or two, you're in the wrong sport and/or have the wrong motivation....

wouldn't agree at all. Beginning tri training for a lot of people means going from zero to at least one training per day on average and that's a shock for body, but also psychologically because people get overwhelmed with it at first, are full of energy etc. but when regular training kicks in and they have for example bad day at work or at home, training is something they simply don't feel like doing - so as with everything, training yourself to do those hard sessions, sessions that you really don't feel like doing is part of becoming triathlete for life IMO

tunney

Some people are cash rich, some are time rich.

Those that are time rich - those with less than full time jobs and no families can have the luxury of reading books, trial and error approaches or just lobbing volumes at things.

Those that are cash rich - those with the money to spend on a coach and not notice probably don't have the time to figure out themselves how to do things best and are happy, and can afford, to just pay someone to tell them what to do.

Two different approaches depending on what you have more of - time or money.

Reminds me of something I heard about last week - JetSuiteX, regional flights in the US where you buy a seat on a private charter. Ten times the cost of a normal regional flight - but no TSA, and get on the plane 5 minutes after you arrive at the air port. €600 dollars and 45 minutes, or €60 and 4-5 hours. Depends on what you have more of - time or money.

shotgunmcos

Hmmm


A Coach has many guises. An expert, a mentor, a friend, a pro etc...


The coach is someone or "something" else. Its a person in person, over email, in a group, in a book etc..
Depending on how you read the question you can get a pile of answers and some real life stuff in this thread (which is one of the best I've seen in this forum in a while).


I originally took the question literally and thought of the coaches I've had. In team sports the Coach was literally the boss. Everyone followed so it was not just accountability to him, yourself but the team too and importantly the one team goal. It was a powerful motivator. This exists in Triathlon to an extent where a coach has a stable of athletes who might even train together and push each other on. In this instance the athletes in their differing goals and attributes probably coach as much amongst themselves.


The one to one is very different. If you have the money and go for it all good. But beware! I've had 2 for short periods. One in person and got stock groupthink stuff and his own agenda. He was competing himself and it was clear I was getting his program rather than my own. Nice guy but poor fit. That ended quickly. Another remote coach who I met across the water a couple of times was much better. I just got more for my money. Better tailored program, better communication (even though there was less of it), better understanding and as a result I hit a bunch of PBs beyond what I thought I would hit.


Why beware? Having a Coach from the get go or in your second season (Novice) is great but you will undoubtedly improve with or without the coach just by training more and having more focus etc.. Hard to distinguish the real impact of the coach. The more self aware you are, even in a new sport, the more you will get from the coach. Some coaches are in the Zone at times and are getting great results, great testimonials etc.. Generally being in the relationship or the groups will move you along. Still, don't jump in with your eyes closed.


It got me onto how I really read the question. Does "everyone" need a coach? Maybe not a coach but something or someone. How many of us are lucky enough to have a virtual coach in our partners? Create a program, share it with them and they tell you to get out for your run when you are looking at the rain or "where you not supposed to swim today?".
How many of us just don't have the motivation to train alone (triathlon is an individual sport - although team tri is starting to grow)? How many of us are happier swimming with the gang or out on a group ride of having someone just a bit faster, more experienced than you, running on your shoulder for a session.

My point is support. We all need support of some kind, particularly when we venture to something new. Brilliant if you can and are willing to fork out growing rates for a personal coach. I've read 50+ sporting autobios and not one person in these books got to where they did alone. They did the work, followed the plan, organized , disciplined themselves but there was always someone, a coach, a mentor, a friend, an expert to bounce off. My Bro ran successful business where a string of bride to be clients paid lots to get them into that dress!

What stage are you at in terms of racing and training? How would you rate your self awareness? Have you been successful at sport before and just need to apply some of that to this new venture or are you a complete Novice? Do you just need structure or knowledge AND structure? Do need to be motivated, pumped, consoled? How do you come down or up from poor results and are you expecting the coach to magic something to remedy a performance? Do you just need a program or analysis too? Often paying the swim membership or joining the running/cycling club will get you access to all kind of athletes that push you along to being better naturally.

I certainly believe everyone needs support with their goals. I just don't believe the answer is always a coach.

zico10

Shotgun, I was specifically referring to one-to-one coaches in my OP. But the thread has gone the way it has, which is fine. I'll read back over it later on and see if there is anything I need to address.

Zavier Dirty Radiologist wrote: »

Why would you find that strange and what leads you to believe that following a Don Fink plan as opposed to a coach would give the same result, what data do you have to back up this view. I think a newbie to the sport could learn much more from a coach than someone who is around the sport longer who may think they know all the answers.

Data? I'm not sure what you're looking for, but this guy (who I know personally) managed just fine.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64073879
His ambitions going into the race were no different than those of other posters here that have recently sought advice on coaching options in Ireland. He finished the race in 11:13 and his final assessment from his report were, "mr fink managed to deliver the goods in the end."

Am I right in saying shotgunmcos and Abhainn also followed/adapted programs from Mr. Fink in the early days? Neither of them fared too badly either.

A search of your log also threw up this;

Zavier Dirty Radiologist wrote: »

The plan i am using is along the lines of the Don Fink Competitive Plan

You'd be in a good position to evaluate things yourself. And dare I say you fared better in those early days before you took on a coach and put ridiculous pressure on yourself to get a Kona slot when you should still have been learning the ropes?

But to be fair, anything you say on the matter also needs to come with the disclaimer that you are a coach and are actively recruiting clients. I'm not at all questioning whether you are value for money btw.

For someone finishing an Ironman is a big deal and could mean as much as someone looking to win their AG or qualify for Kona. Everyone's ambitions are different but could mean as much to the individual.

It would be hard for me to reply honestly to this without sounding elitist, but I'll go back to what I said originally; People just looking to 'finish' an ironman, which is the stated aim of many, would do just fine with any generic plan. Coaches were few and far between when I did my first ironman and I can't honestly think of anybody in my club who had one. The thinking that 'I must get a coach because I'm doing an ironman.' wasn't out there, because the options simply didn't exist. Whereas nowadays, numerous coaching companies sell themselves with a tagline along the lines of 'Thinking of doing an Ironman, hire a coach.' Time pressed or not, there are people who now think they'll struggle to get through an Ironman unless they take on a coach. It's how this climate came to exist that I am railing against.

Also worth noting that coaching is not for some people as some are uncoachable. Give me someone who is willing to learn and listen with mediocre ability to someone slightly faster who think they have all the answers. Those are the people who really are wasting their time on coaching.

That's hardly surprising, as it would make your job a lot easier. It doesn't mean the athlete is wrong to ask the questions though. If an 'uncoachable' athletes exist, why does the blame for that rest on the athlete? Maybe the coach should look at themselves.

Dory Dory

zico10 wrote: »

So, who out there has/had a personal coach? And why did you feel the need to hire one?

I'll chime in here. The first "personal coach" (remotely related to triathlon and directly related to boards) I had was the artist formerly known as ecoli. I approached him after being wowed by his talent and mentoring in the running forum. At the time I approached him, he had just finished "coaching" the DCM novice peeps, and he was fantastic in every respect with that group of runners - I was deeply impressed with him as a person. I felt the need to enlist him because: 1) ecoli inspired me, 2) I had no training at all in the sport of running (so I really didn't know what I was doing) yet I felt I had some decent talent and wanted to see how far I could lower my marathon time, 3) I had done 2 cycles of the FIRST marathon plan and felt I needed human interaction to continue improving (and learning), 4) ecoli's ability to communicate, encourage and explain in such a constructive manner really appealed to me, and 5) the fact that ecoli was not "coaching" many (if any ? at that time) runners meant I would get some crazy personal attention with a super personalized plan. And I did. He was fantastic.

I train nearly 100% on my own and have very little history in triathlon, therefore for me, some handholding and encouragement is refreshing and welcome. I now have a gal who guides me in triathlon, and having her in my life streamlines things for me. And, like the way I chose ecoli, I chose Leslie because of her character and personality, her ability to articulate and excite, her knowledge and patience, and the fact that she gives me individual and personal attention.

Huff n Puff

Plenty of good points being made here from both points of view. This is not a black and white issue and there are definitely many circumstances where personal coaching would be the best choice. There are also some fantastic personal coaches in this country including some that give up their time to post on here. It is more of a general point - do so many inexperienced triathletes need to go down the one-on-one coaching route? I am not saying that you don't work with coaches. Your triathlon club should have an affordable coaching system in place that will be sufficient for your first few years in the sport.

This whole trend towards one-on-one coaching is pretty recent. Maybe that was the way it was always going to go with, as Tunney says, people being money rich and time poor. This phenomenon is really taking over the cycling scene now too with coaches pushing hard with advertising. Do the rás on 8 hours a week. Do an Ironman on 8 hours a week. Is it possible? Yes. Is it wise? I wouldn't be pushing that myself - but if it takes 16 hours a week to do it with a club then the club must be doing something wrong. Sign me up!

As someone that is heavily involved in a club and who advocates strongly for volunteer coaching in clubs, I must say I don't like hearing someone in the club mention to me that they are going to pay for a coach. More often than not, that is the last we ever see from them as many coaches don't work in tandem with a local club. Instead of training with a number of An Post Rás riders and some of the top triathletes in the country you are deciding to go it alone. If the training is good enough for me then it should be good enough for most people, but many think that there are always massive gains to be found elsewhere. They think personal coaches have the magic formula that will turn them into a world beater.

Two things that have negatively affected our club training sessions over the last 10 years 1. the growth in popularity of Ironman 2. personal coaching.

There is also a huge social side to training. I would find it very hard to stay in a sport long term if I was training solo. This is a situation many one-on-one coaches put their triathletes in (they alone have the secret sets that will bring you success, the club will only drag you down). You might last for a year or two but unless you are a seriously driven individual, you will eventually hit a lull that you won't get out of. Big gains can be made if you just take a long term view of the sport. 2 or 3 years and gone is not a recipe for success. It's going to take time and you are going to need friends in the sport. The person you pay is not your friend and as soon as the payments stop you are on your own.

Lastly, I find that there is a tendancy to over complicate things. This sport of ours is not rocket science. It is not hard to put a plan in place. If you can't put a training plan in place for yourself to do an Ironman then you probably shouldn't be doing one as you are too inexperienced in the sport. Is it wise to do an Ironman in your first or second year? Do many personal coaches advise their triathletes not to do these things? I am not so sure they do.

Zavier Dirty Radiologist wrote: »

"I think a newbie to the sport could learn much more from a coach than someone who is around the sport longer who may think they know all the answers."

Most coaching in Ireland is quite simply 'someone who is around the sport longer' who decides they want to get paid for giving answers. I don't see any difference. It all depends on the individual.

shotgunmcos

No worries Zico - I did first start to post literally from one to one coaching experience but as usual I waffled on..

zico10 wrote: »

Am I right in saying shotgunmcos and Abhainn also followed/adapted programs from Mr. Fink in the early days? Neither of them fared too badly either.

Correct. For me anyway, maybe Abhainn too. Basically took the Fink plan and adapted to the flexibility I needed (like swapping 6-7 hour slow bikes for 4-5 hour bikes with work). I was in 9:40 shape but ended up with 10:07. It was nothing to do with the training plan or the work and everything to do with the approach and race plan. I could have benefitted from someone guiding me through the last 2-3 weeks and helping me with my nutrition plan for the day.


I did Challenge Galway last year with no training and had the most relaxed attitude with zero expectations. Interestingly I became interested in what everyone else was doing and found it hilarious the million little unnecessary things folk were doing in transition or before the swim etc.. Also interesting, I was so under confident with the lack of run training that I planned a run - walk strategy.. and wasn't far off my marathon time for the 10 hour IM!


As Huff n Puff said and what the more elite members of our forum here have always said... KISS! - We overcomplicate everything!!
+++1 with JB too. An actual Coach vs. someone dispensing advice from an ancient past is a very different thing. You can get the latter hanging around the showers after a swim session... Why pay for that?

rooneyjm

I had a coach for a season and have to say it was a positive experience. Pb'ed in sprint, Olympic and the marathon. Would I have pb'ed anyway, probably BUT I don't think by as much.

I don't mentor anyone in the club officially but a few guys ask what training are you doing etc. They seem to struggle with putting weeks together, what sessions to do, intensity and building it over a few weeks/months.

I see a lot a guys run easy runs too fast. Poor tapering, one lad lost I'd say 20-25 minutes in Dublin Half IM with poor tapering, training to hard 2 weeks out. A coach can be a real help in these areas and it is very handy having your weeks training sent to you each week.

The same fella asked me do you think I should get a coach. I said it think you will pb at sprint Olympic and half distance if you put the same effort in but do it a bit smarter. The coach might get you an extra minute or two at sprint distance beyond what you might achieve alone, so is that extra worth the cost to you. If so go for it, if not then maybe leave until another time.

peter kern

Not much more infuriating than bull sh..t
Do the ras on 8 hours a week.... Joke
But I think you need to differentiate between marketing and coaching.
Zico re the Don Fink plan I don't think it's a good plan neither do I think is a bad plan.
But what I can certainly say from experience is that many people that use that plan give time away. As they still don't understand how training needs to feel.etc still swim bad run badly etc.
However I am 100% in agreement that this plan is good enough to finish.

At the same time 50% of the people on that plan should not do an iron-man IMHO as they are not ready for an iron-man
One of the biggest problems in the sport that people go for IM way to early. And good coaching here can help trying to make sure people follow a decent development pass.
Most itu guys take 2 years to develop into ironman it's pathetic to think that agers would do it quicker.... Unless they do an 8 hour weekly plan that is a quarter of what pros do of course that's going to work.

Coaching is really a bit more than a 20 week plan....
And to be honest it's a bit of a joke to think a coach can do something in20 weeks . The impact of coaching usually takes longer ( unless in soccer where coaches of course make changes in 3 days..... At first division level and concept coaching..... The equivalent of doing the ras on 8 hours training...)
Sometimes you get quick improvements, but you need talent.but usually it takes a good while that coach and athlete understand each other. AND often you don't get there.
One Irish pro left a coach that coaches an ironman world champ after 8 month for instance. That coach had 2 guys in the top 6 in Kona, this year so he can't be bad but that obviously did not work out.

Huff n Puff wrote: »

Plenty of good points being made here from both points of view. This is not a black and white issue and there are definitely many circumstances where personal coaching would be the best choice. There are also some fantastic personal coaches in this country including some that give up their time to post on here. It is more of a general point - do so many inexperienced triathletes need to go down the one-on-one coaching route? I am not saying that you don't work with coaches. Your triathlon club should have an affordable coaching system in place that will be sufficient for your first few years in the sport.

This whole trend towards one-on-one coaching is pretty recent. Maybe that was the way it was always going to go with, as Tunney says, people being money rich and time poor. This phenomenon is really taking over the cycling scene now too with coaches pushing hard with advertising. Do the rás on 8 hours a week. Do an Ironman on 8 hours a week. Is it possible? Yes. Is it wise? I wouldn't be pushing that myself - but if it takes 16 hours a week to do it with a club then the club must be doing something wrong. Sign me up!

As someone that is heavily involved in a club and who advocates strongly for volunteer coaching in clubs, I must say I don't like hearing someone in the club mention to me that they are going to pay for a coach. More often than not, that is the last we ever see from them as many coaches don't work in tandem with a local club. Instead of training with a number of An Post Rás riders and some of the top triathletes in the country you are deciding to go it alone. If the training is good enough for me then it should be good enough for most people, but many think that there are always massive gains to be found elsewhere. They think personal coaches have the magic formula that will turn them into a world beater.

Two things that have negatively affected our club training sessions over the last 10 years 1. the growth in popularity of Ironman 2. personal coaching.

There is also a huge social side to training. I would find it very hard to stay in a sport long term if I was training solo. This is a situation many one-on-one coaches put their triathletes in (they alone have the secret sets that will bring you success, the club will only drag you down). You might last for a year or two but unless you are a seriously driven individual, you will eventually hit a lull that you won't get out of. Big gains can be made if you just take a long term view of the sport. 2 or 3 years and gone is not a recipe for success. It's going to take time and you are going to need friends in the sport. The person you pay is not your friend and as soon as the payments stop you are on your own.

Lastly, I find that there is a tendancy to over complicate things. This sport of ours is not rocket science. It is not hard to put a plan in place. If you can't put a training plan in place for yourself to do an Ironman then you probably shouldn't be doing one as you are too inexperienced in the sport. Is it wise to do an Ironman in your first or second year? Do many personal coaches advise their triathletes not to do these things? I am not so sure they do.

Most coaching in Ireland is quite simply 'someone who is around the sport longer' who decides they want to get paid for giving answers. I don't see any difference. It all depends on the individual.

peter kern

Ps one of the biggest problems in tri is overinformation and while somebody said kiss still works very well. Most agers try to find stuff to make it more complicated.
And the nonsense people talk a club sessions is incredible. And many lose sight whats important.
The sport went in 10 years from underinformation to total overinformatiin with each blog trying to push products that nobody needs.
Most coaches don't help here and we are part of the problem, but I guess it's also the athletes that want that rubbish. As they want the medal in the race.
At the end for most people tri is there adult sandbox

peter kern wrote: »

Not much more infuriating than bull sh..t
Do the ras on 8 hours a week.... Joke
But I think you need to differentiate between marketing and coaching.
Zico re the Don Fink plan I don't think it's a good plan neither do I think is a bad plan.
But what I can certainly say from experience is that many people that use that plan give time away. As they still don't understand how training needs to feel.etc still swim bad run badly etc.
However I am 100% in agreement that this plan is good enough to finish.

At the same time 50% of the people on that plan should not do an iron-man IMHO as they are not ready for an iron-man
One of the biggest problems in the sport that people go for IM way to early. And good coaching here can help trying to make sure people follow a decent development pass.
Most itu guys take 2 years to develop into ironman it's pathetic to think that agers would do it quicker.... Unless they do an 8 hour weekly plan that is a quarter of what pros do of course that's going to work.

Coaching is really a bit more than a 20 week plan....
And to be honest it's a bit of a joke to think a coach can do something in20 weeks . The impact of coaching usually takes longer ( unless in soccer where coaches of course make changes in 3 days..... At first division level and concept coaching..... The equivalent of doing the ras on 8 hours training...)
Sometimes you get quick improvements, but you need talent.but usually it takes a good while that coach and athlete understand each other. AND often you don't get there.
One Irish pro left a coach that coaches an ironman world champ after 8 month for instance. That coach had 2 guys in the top 6 in Kona, this year so he can't be bad but that obviously did not work out.

Pmaldini

I had a coach more by accident than by a conscious decision to go down that route, i was injured and couldn't run but i could get up on the turbo, i asked a question on this forum about turbo sessions and got great advice from JB, through a lot of chats i decided to work with JB and he worked a great plan around my busy schedule, i work 6 days a week and have 3 kids, i am neither time rich or money rich as Tunney mentioned and i would love to be able to train with the club as Huff & Puff has mentioned but i just cant make any of sessions, for example, the club spin is at 10 on a sunday, i am finished by then so i can bring the young lad to rugby, swimming is at 7am, i start work at 8 so no point in going as the club session doesnt really start till 7.10, so i go to a different pool that opens at 6.30, i do most of my training on my own, but it was always great to have someone to check out the numbers and set different targets, i know i could have probably done this myself but having JB send my a new plan every week really helped, he always called and asked my schedule work/kids wise and worked around that for me, if i needed to change something a quick call on what could be changed so not to affect the next session was invaluable in my mind, you dont get that in a book. I used Don Finks book for my 1st IM and was very happy with it but with the extra structure i got from JB i took 45mins off my next IM and would have been a lot more except for a calf problem i picked up few weeks before the race.
I totally agree with Huff & Puff about the club structure, if you are able to make the sessions it is a great way of learning the sport but in my case time is always against me, i spent 5 years plodding along trying to learn bits and bobs and learned more in a year with JB than i did in those 5 years

ray o

rooneyjm wrote: »

Poor tapering, one lad lost I'd say 20-25 minutes in Dublin Half IM with poor tapering, training to hard 2 weeks out.

If that is who I think it is he was told rein it in so close to the race but had convinced himself he needed to them anyway. He would have had to be physically restrained. He has learned a lesson though.

rooneyjm

ray o wrote: »

If that is who I think it is he was told rein it in so close to the race but had convinced himself he needed to them anyway. He would have had to be physically restrained. He has learned a lesson though.

A harsh lesson, but had he been paying someone a 100 euros a month he would of listened. Even though more experienced people were politely saying pull back he ploughed on. He wanted to perform to his best but the result was other club mates he was smashing in training beat him. A coach would have reeled him in.

Dory Dory

rooneyjm wrote: »

A harsh lesson, but had he been paying someone a 100 euros a month he would of listened. Even though more experienced people were politely saying pull back he ploughed on. He wanted to perform to his best but the result was other club mates he was smashing in training beat him. A coach would have reeled him in.

Not necessarily. The will and mind (no matter how foolish) can sometimes be stronger than the almighty dollar euro.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

@Zico - Whilst the Don Fink has its limitations its an ok plan. I just think a blanket statement "Don Fink's book at a fraction of the cost would end up getting you the same result" i disagree with (with the caveat that the coach is not an idiot)
Coaching is much more than just setting sessions and sending a weekly plan, any monkey can do that.

9Crimes

I can only comment on my own decision on getting a coach. Going long for the first time this year, I was feeling daunted by the challenge. I felt a coach would help ease my mind as I would know I was doing the right session at the right time and would recover properly etc. Having spoken to several more knowledgeable individuals (zico included) and done a bit of research I decided a coach was not necessary for the following reasons:
1: cost - my first ironman is already expensive enough!
2: research - I consider myself a competent person and with a good bit of research (reading don fink, Joe friel and others) over Xmas, I feel I can put a plan together to suit my body and goals.
3: expectations - I'm not going to win anything, I'm not at the sharp end of the field (where I think a coach could fine tune an athlete and would be worth it)
4: Access to coaches and veteran ironman competitors - being in a club I have access to several coaches, all of which whose opinion I respect and they are always open to questions as are several experienced athletes in the club.
5: training partners - several friends are training for the same ironman and it will be great to bounce ideas and q's off each other.

I think if I was missing any of the above reasons, I may have opted for a coach.

RJM85

A lot of times the most appropriate answer to a question is "it depends". Should someone get a coach? It depends!

Personally, I got myself a coach in my first season in tri after having dabbled in cycling and running by myself for a couple of years. There were a couple of reasons for this:
- if you listen to the lads at the tri club sessions you'll likely get 14 different approaches from 14 different people as to how you should be training at any one time. And the guys that actually know are likely not the most vocal either. It can be difficult for a beginner with any level of ambition in the sport to decipher all of the conflicting bull****.
- time constraints - sample plans are great when you have all the time in which to do them. Add wife, kids, friends, work, other commitments and it's sometimes not that easy to see how best to adapt that plan for you.
-support - a good coach cares about your results and within reason will put up with your nerves before a big race, help settle you, answer your stupid questions. There's only so much you can chat about ftp and swolf with the lads or your wife.
- experience and objectivity - for me, at the stage I'm at with my training, this is the most valuable thing I get from a coach. I'd like to think I could put together a pretty decent training plan for myself if I needed and for the most part - I have the understanding, tools and resources to be fine by myself. But the most valuable thing I've got from the last 2 seasons in particular has been the times when coach stepped in and said we've got to change this plan around a bit based on how your body is reacting. Either an unplanned rest week or making sure I don't do the 10mile tt I want to do because it will compromise my overall objective.

Obviously, there's loads of other reasons someone might feel they need a coach, and whether they actually do or not is really dependent on the individual (I know more than one person who have paid good money for coaching while at the same time regularly disregarding the plan or advice as set out by coach either because they didn't have the patience to follow through, they knew better, or because they just felt like doing something else entirely.

Keeks

It seems to me that people have differing thoughts on what a "Coach" is.

There is a difference between a "Coach" and a "Trainer"

Some examples https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/12-differences-between-trainer-coach-martin-rooney

pgibbo

Matt Dixon goes in to coach versus prescriber in this interview - some very good points

peter kern

Keeks wrote: »

It seems to me that people have differing thoughts on what a "Coach" is.

There is a difference between a "Coach" and a "Trainer"

Some examples https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/12-differences-between-trainer-coach-martin-rooney

I think for a starter whenever we read an article that has 10 or 12 points than we usally know BS is going to happen ;-) when you search on pub med etc you would never find that , only in BS tri magazines etc ;-)

I dont think thats a good article, with loads of clichee points.
at the end of the day what matters is is a trainer or a coach is good. and a "coach" has to do all the stuff that he says a "trainer" does too, and a good trainer does all the stuff he attributes to a coach. I see what he tries to say, but if one is a coach or a trainer depends more on the people you are dealing with.
( its not the biggest suprise ze germans have only 1 word for it, in german they distingush more between an ahtlete and an athelte that focuses more on the pints after training )

the one point that made me laugh was the one were he suggested
that a trainer counts your reps a coach discounts your excusses.
of course i have to like that one since I never count reps. ( same when i train myself i dont really count as this is someting thats not important to me ) but likewise there is many good coaches that would count reps
i think it would be better said that a coach is not a babysitter to make sure you do the session ,a coach tries to help to make the session a valuable as possible.


this is why i usually say if one needs somebody to be accountable too, you have loads to learn to get to your best (that should be a very limited part of coaching . at the same time this is also a coaches job to teach that.
so again its more the athlete who decides if they need a "trainer " or a "Coach"with their behaviour.

what most atheltes are looking for those days is a social media "coach' or race.
its more an entertainenr they are looking for, than a coach.or a race most financially smart coaches and organicers understood that very well.
and then you have good coaches like Eanna who focuses on getting people faster.
and then you have the most dangerous specises coaches that think they are coaches becasue they did one ironman or a level 1 course.( edit and of course those people can be very good as well , and you dont even need to have done an iornman or level one course to be a good coach. its more they think they are a coach becauseu they did that . forgetting this is just the first step or not even a useful step )

Fazz

zico10 wrote: »

So, who out there has/had a personal coach? And why did you feel the need to hire one?

I've had the following:

Year 1 (2011) - Just Tri Club and Google/Friends advise
- toward end of year joined an online coaching outfit and didn't work after a month or two so left.

Year 2 & 3 (2012-2013) - Joined Group Coaching all inclusive group training 5-6 times per week seeing coach.

Year 4 - (2014) - Tried own thing and work priorities took over so less time to make group sessions. Self coached for most of year with dabbles here and there for advice. Did 1st Ironman at end of year and it was my most enjoyable race to that date. Primarily probably as I experienced an Ironman when I was fit enough to do one, and didn't have any real expectations.

Year 5 - (2015) - Still self coached as work/life priorities took more time and reduced training accordingly. Dabbled here and there with swim/run coaching/advice.

Year 6 - (2016) - Hired a Domestic coach a few months in and despite work priorities managed more consistency and nabbed a decent race off less than peak fitness.

Year 7 - (2017) - Back to self coaching and a few less work pressures so lofty goals set again and overall training back to previous levels of consistency.


So very much a mixed bag.
There's too many variables in each year to constructively say one is better than the other etc etc.

Coaching and the need/want for it is very much an individual thing.

The best answer in my experience is if you think it will increase your consistency then go for it. And that can be in training quality, volume, injury prevention, enjoyment etc.

I've learnt a huge amount from all of the coaches bar the initial failed online crowd. Fortunately enough that I now feel I'm able to plan my own schedule and know what works best for me most of the time.

To answer Zico's question - I felt the need to hire a coach to drive maximum performance improvements for given time periods.
I also at other times felt the need to be accountable to someone overseeing/managing my plan.
Other times I felt I could learn from their training methods as I had stagnated etc.

And I felt the need to go self coached as I had strong views/opinions on what would drive more improvements, wanted to try my own things etc.

There is no doubting that group training is a better dynamic overall though. It enables better enjoyment, tips, improvement and overall returns for time invested.
That training can be through your local club sessions, dedicated local groups or dedicated coached groups.
Or to a lesser extent sessions with mates/peers at local sessions.
We all have different life priorities at different times so it's not a one size fits all.