checkpoint in private estate

judeboy101

Hi all,

Reading one of my friends FB timelines. He lives in a private estate i.e. Not taken over by cc and still under construction, but ags have set up a number of checkpoints in the estate for drink driving, tax etc over last few months. Is this kosher?

shar01

Of course it's kosher. The hoipolloi break the law too. The guards wouldn't go to all that trouble just to have possible convictions overturned just because it's a "private" estate.

judeboy101

shar01 wrote: »

Of course it's kosher. The hoipolloi break the law too. The guards wouldn't go to all that trouble just to have possible convictions overturned just because it's a "private" estate.

So what's stopping them setting up a checkpoint in my driveway? From what I know the road and common areas of the estate are still owned privately by the builder just like my driveway is still owned privately by me. Can I assume a private car parked on my driveway untaxed and no nxt will garner me penalty points even If I only drive it inside my property line?

listermint

judeboy101 wrote: »

So what's stopping them setting up a checkpoint in my driveway? From what I know the road and common areas of the estate are still owned privately by the builder just like my driveway is still owned privately by me. Can I assume a private car parked on my driveway untaxed and no nxt will garner me penalty points even If I only drive it inside my property line?

No you can't. Your driveway is not open to the public it's yours.

The estates roads are open to the public as in vehicles use them daily.

You not pay your car tax OP?

twowheelsonly

Don't really know the legal standing on it but I'd assume that it's a public road (even if it hasn't been handed over yet)
Whereas I wouldn't be entitled to enter or drive on your property without permission or invite I would be entitled to drive on the roads of a 'private' estate.

Stealthfins

Sounds like a dodgy estate tbh

You'll usually have more white collar criminals in those private estate's.

They're setting up checkpoints to catch someone for more then drink driving.

judeboy101

listermint wrote: »

No you can't. Your driveway is not open to the public it's yours.

The estates roads are open to the public as in vehicles use them daily.

You not pay your car tax OP?

My driveway is open to esb/gas meter readers, postman, delivery man etc. I'm just curious could the land owner ask ags not to trespass on his property in this case the estate, without his permission?

listermint

judeboy101 wrote: »

My driveway is open to esb/gas meter readers, postman, delivery man etc. I'm just curious could the land owner ask ags not to trespass on his property in this case the estate, without his permission?

Its not the same.

Appears like an attempt to get out of penalty points. The theme of this thread btw.

judeboy101

Stealthfins wrote: »

Sounds like a dodgy estate tbh

You'll usually have more white collar criminals in those private estate's.

They're setting up checkpoints to catch someone for more then drink driving.

Tbh that makes more sense that a revenue generation scam

twowheelsonly

Stealthfins wrote: »

Sounds like a dodgy estate tbh

You'll usually have more white collar criminals in those private estate's.

They're setting up checkpoints to catch someone for more then drink driving.

That makes more sense actually.
Could be someone there that's of interest to the Gardai - or others !!

judeboy101

listermint wrote: »

Its not the same.

Appears like an attempt to get out of penalty points. The theme of this thread btw.

How is it not the same? And this is a legal discussion, so less speculation outside of the point being discussed.

Stealthfins

If I had nothing to hide op it wouldn't really bother me.

I'd be aware something isn't right in my estate or road whatever but mind my own business.

I'm curious as to why your friend publishised this on Facebook,I'm not a user of Facebook but wouldn't hang my dirty linnen out in public.

Now it seems to me your friend is getting a likkle hot under the collar....

Officer Giggles

The roads in the estate are a public place as per the definition of public place under the road traffic act

listermint

judeboy101 wrote: »

How is it not the same? And this is a legal discussion, so less speculation outside of the point being discussed.

Well it being a discussion then I'd assume you would give full detail of why it is such a concern as that is motivating circumstances.

CIARAN_BOYLE

judeboy101 wrote: »

Hi all,

Reading one of my friends FB timelines. He lives in a private estate i.e. Not taken over by cc and still under construction, but ags have set up a number of checkpoints in the estate for drink driving, tax etc over last few months. Is this kosher?

The definition of a public place under the rota is what's relevant. If the estate was bated for example it wouldn't be a public place and it wouldn't be allowed.

It's also worth considering that estates under construction have more often break insurance than settled finished estates to garda presence should help prevent odd people hanging around casing the area.

judeboy101

Stealthfins wrote: »

If I had nothing to hide op it wouldn't really bother me.

I'd be aware something isn't right in my estate or road whatever but mind my own business.

I'm curious as to why your friend publishised this on Facebook,I'm not a user of Facebook but wouldn't hang my dirty linnen out in public.

Now it seems to me your friend is getting a likkle hot under the collar....

No offence, but deference to authority and the 'mind your own business' mentality of Ireland has allowed garda corruption and institutional abuse to flourish. The days of not questioning the motives of ags are hopefully long gone.

listermint

judeboy101 wrote: »

No offence, but deference to authority and the 'mind your own business' mentality of Ireland has allowed garda corruption and institutional abuse to flourish. The days of not questioning the motives of ags are hopefully long gone.

Quality.

judeboy101

listermint wrote: »

Well it being a discussion then I'd assume you would give full detail of why it is such a concern as that is motivating circumstances.

He and neighbors was broken into and no sign of ags. But they turn up to fill their quota of nct/no tax

Stealthfins

judeboy101 wrote:

No offence, but deference to authority and the 'mind your own business mentality of Ireland has allowed garda corruption and institutional abuse to flourish. The days of not questioning the motives of ags are hopefully long gone.

Well you or your friend go ahead and question their authority or business in the estate, and I'll gurantee you'll realize you're better off minding your own business.

Plenty of so called posh or middle class lags live in private estate's.

He could have a Johnboy character up the road.

listermint

judeboy101 wrote: »

He and neighbors was broken into and no sign of ags. But they turn up to fill their quota of nct/no tax

OK so the guards didn't turn up to a reported burglary...

How many points did 'your mate' get for his lack of nct and tax ?

Did they truck the car off?

my3cents

I don't see how you can be done for no tax, insurance or NCT on a private road. Anyway another question if the council hasn't take over the road yet what is the speed limit?

ezra_

judeboy101 wrote: »

My driveway is open to esb/gas meter readers, postman, delivery man etc. I'm just curious could the land owner ask ags not to trespass on his property in this case the estate, without his permission?

ESB/Gas - you give them permission to enter in the T&cs
TV Licence inspector - power by statute
Post/Deliveryman/Unexpected - if you don't want them walking on to your property, put your postbox outside a locked gate.

AGS - if they want to set up a check point on your avenue, they'll need your consent. If they are coming down your avenue to execute a warrant, then you shouting 'I DENY YOUR IMPLIED RIGHT OF ACCESS' doesn't actually prevent them from doing what they came to do (but it might get you an honourable mention in the Freeman megamerge thread)

However, your private property and the private roads that link it to the nearest public road are not the same. The key word here is 'road', not 'private'; although your development company is paying for the road, I have a right to drive/walk/cycle on it.

In short, the 'road' part is important, not who pays for the potholes. Where people have a right to enter, the AGS have a right to enforce the laws.

desbrook

I'd be interested to note were the Gardai stopping cars driving INTO the estate near the entrance say. In such cases where they stop exactly is irrelevant as the motorist has been seen by the officer driving on a public road prior to the stop.

I remember reading years ago of a guy who was arrested in a car park of a local shop for drink driving one night. Like that the argument was tried in court that (a) he wasn't driving and (b) it wasn't a public place. Neither argument was accepted as firstly he was "in charge" of the vehicle which the law requires and secondly the car park was a public place. Why? Because anyone could drive in.

harr

The exact same say as a garage fourcourt ...while the premises are owned privately by garage owner.....they are considered public areas as public has access so guards can legally check cars or persons on the property...
Same goes for roads in and out of housing estates...I have seen guards checking for tax on cars parked up in estate

^^^ desbrook got in with same comment before me^^^^

jimmycrackcorm

From an old thread...

I guess that if you don't want Gardai in the estate then whoever actually owns the roads will have to put up a sign saying private property and possibly gate the access.

Define a public place:

Under the road traffic act it is: any street, road, or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;


Gardai are citizens too. They can pass through a laneway if it is a public right of way, they can go into a shop to buy the paper, and they have implied permission to enter onto the curtilage/driveway of a house to ring the doorbell, because every citizen has implied permission to go up to the door of another's private property.

Garda powers only come into play when they do something which a citizen cannot. In the original scenario, the garda wants to enter onto private property. If there is a public right of way he can follow that right of way. But if there is no public right of way, he can only enter with permission or based on one of his powers

The Talking Bread

judeboy101 wrote: »

Hi all,

Reading one of my friends FB timelines. He lives in a private estate i.e. Not taken over by cc and still under construction, but ags have set up a number of checkpoints in the estate for drink driving, tax etc over last few months. Is this kosher?

What sort of estate is it?? Seems a bizarre place to be setting it up as frequently as you claim?

cursai

judeboy101 wrote: »

He and neighbors was broken into and no sign of ags. But they turn up to fill their quota of nct/no tax

I knew there was something funny about the op. Cue X files theme.

LC2017

OP the fact of the matter is that it isn't a private road

Stealthfins

Has Paul Williams been hanging around there yet ?

hullaballoo

Moderator: This is Legal Discussion, for discussion of legal issues, not idle speculation.

Please keep things on topic for the forum and thread, which here is the legality of checkpoints on privately owned roadways.

Little CuChulainn

judeboy101 wrote: »

He and neighbors was broken into and no sign of ags. But they turn up to fill their quota of nct/no tax

How many cars were seized for no tax or no nct?

my3cents wrote: »

I don't see how you can be done for no tax, insurance or NCT on a private road. Anyway another question if the council hasn't take over the road yet what is the speed limit?

The law applies to public places not public roads. You can restrict access to the estate and it would no longer be a public place.

Mr Jinx

judeboy101 wrote: »

He and neighbors was broken into and no sign of ags. But they turn up to fill their quota of nct/no tax

He complains that there are no Guards around when his house was broken into, yet complains when they are there doing a checkpoint??
Your friend is a dose. Guards doing checkpoints will by their nature deter burglary's.
Id be delighted to have regular checkpoints in my estate or road. Would be safest around.

judeboy101

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

From an old thread...

I guess that if you don't want Gardai in the estate then whoever actually owns the roads will have to put up a sign saying private property and possibly gate the access.

So if I want to restore a car from scratch I can get done for no tax insurance and nct if it is sitting I my drive way as the public have access to my driveway?

Mr Jinx

judeboy101 wrote: »

So if I want to restore a car from scratch I can get done for no tax insurance and nct if it is sitting I my drive way as the public have access to my driveway?

Your driveway is private property, however roads in your estate unless they are gated are a public place under the road traffic act.

listermint

judeboy101 wrote: »

So if I want to restore a car from scratch I can get done for no tax insurance and nct if it is sitting I my drive way as the public have access to my driveway?

No you have been given details and examples.

judeboy101

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

How many cars were seized for no tax or no nct?



The law applies to public places not public roads. You can restrict access to the estate and it would no longer be a public place.

None were done for dd/ no tax no insurance etc.

Get Real

Perfectly fine for a checkpoint to occur here. Even if the community was gated. Section 49 (4) b of the road traffic act: b) any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;”;

So can anyone drive in there with their car? Yes. So it's a public place. Subject to a charge would apply to the likes of car parks. If someone was involved in a collision in a gated car park for example and was over the limit, it's drink driving. An estate is a public place for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act.

The Talking Bread

Get Real wrote: »

Perfectly fine for a checkpoint to occur here. Even if the community was gated. Section 49 (4) b of the road traffic act: b) any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;”;

So can anyone drive in there with their car? Yes. So it's a public place. Subject to a charge would apply to the likes of car parks. If someone was involved in a collision in a gated car park for example and was over the limit, it's drink driving. An estate is a public place for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act.

Some private housing estates have gates on them, this one doesn't have such, it seems

judeboy101

Get Real wrote: »

Perfectly fine for a checkpoint to occur here. Even if the community was gated. Section 49 (4) b of the road traffic act: b) any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;”;

So can anyone drive in there with their car? Yes. So it's a public place. Subject to a charge would apply to the likes of car parks. If someone was involved in a collision in a gated car park for example and was over the limit, it's drink driving. An estate is a public place for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act.

My house is in off the row so people drive in with their cars but other posters say ags wont set up checkpoint in my driveway, can you explain the distinction ?

The Talking Bread

Similar forum, here

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/private-or-public-road.94223/

1st dalkey dalkey

judeboy101 wrote: »

So if I want to restore a car from scratch I can get done for no tax insurance and nct if it is sitting I my drive way as the public have access to my driveway?

That's an interesting one, actually.

The law describes what a public road and a public place are. This was posted earlier in relation to public road;

"Under the road traffic act it is: any street, road, or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;"

It seems a pretty wide definition and would cover most anywhere that does not actively restrict access. Indeed even where access is restricted, as in you must pay, it is still a public place if the public generally are permitted to, or even able to, enter.

It would appear, from that definition, that your driveway could, indeed, be a public place in the event that you gave permission to members of the public to enter onto it.

Would allowing a delivery man reverse onto your driveway make it a public place? Would it be such only while he was there or would that make it public for ever?

Dial Hard

judeboy101 wrote:

My house is in off the row so people drive in with their cars but other posters say ags wont set up checkpoint in my driveway, can you explain the distinction ?

I'm beginning to think you're just being deliberately obtuse now.

Your driveway is private. The road outside it is not. That's the distinction.

Get Real

judeboy101 wrote: »

My house is in off the row so people drive in with their cars but other posters say ags wont set up checkpoint in my driveway, can you explain the distinction ?

Your actual driveway of your house? Because that's solely your private property. It's not a road. However if they observed someone who they suspected of say drink driving, they have a power to enter the curtilage of the property (your driveway) to test for intoxication.

Section 7 RTA 2010: "may enter without warrant (if need be by use of reasonable force) any place (including the curtilage of a dwelling but not the dwelling) where the person is or where the member, with reasonable cause, suspects him or her to be"

Other than that it's your driveway. Private property. Hence you could have a car sitting in your driveway with no tax insurance or not and it's all legal as long as it doesn't leave there.

A poster above referenced allowing a delivery driver reverse in, does that make it a public place etc. No. That's just splitting hairs. "Any other place" would logically mean a shopping centre car park, a field open for a car show, a drive in cinema(if we have any) a drive thru lane at a mcdonalds etc.

The law has to be written out in a general sense, we have judges who then interpret and decide this in court and a driveway has been interpreted as not a public place, hence the coming up with section 7 RTA 2010 power to enter.

Little CuChulainn

judeboy101 wrote: »

None were done for dd/ no tax no insurance etc.

Doesn't sound like a great quota filling exercise so.

judeboy101 wrote: »

My house is in off the row so people drive in with their cars but other posters say ags wont set up checkpoint in my driveway, can you explain the distinction ?

Your driveway is not a public place unless you give open permission for people to use it. If you came out of your house and a stranger was parked in the driveway would you be ok with that? Use of the driveway is only for a specific subset of people, people who are visiting you.

The Talking Bread

There is many a mistruth, or lack of facts in this opening post, I anticipate. There is very much more to this than meets the eye if the checkpoint is a frequent occurrence.

1st dalkey dalkey

Get Real wrote: »

Your actual driveway of your house? Because that's solely your private property. It's not a road. However if they observed someone who they suspected of say drink driving, they have a power to enter the curtilage of the property (your driveway) to test for intoxication.

Section 7 RTA 2010: "may enter without warrant (if need be by use of reasonable force) any place (including the curtilage of a dwelling but not the dwelling) where the person is or where the member, with reasonable cause, suspects him or her to be"

Other than that it's your driveway. Private property. Hence you could have a car sitting in your driveway with no tax insurance or not and it's all legal as long as it doesn't leave there.

A poster above referenced allowing a delivery driver reverse in, does that make it a public place etc. No. That's just splitting hairs. "Any other place" would logically mean a shopping centre car park, a field open for a car show, a drive in cinema(if we have any) a drive thru lane at a mcdonalds etc.

The law has to be written out in a general sense, we have judges who then interpret and decide this in court and a driveway has been interpreted as not a public place, hence the coming up with section 7 RTA 2010 power to enter.

I think that section you refer to was intended for a very specific circumstance. When a driver returns home to his own driveway it is not a public place under the old provisions. Thus the requirement for the mentioned section.

andekwarhola

Common areas in a private estate like minor roads usually come under the auspices of the management company or developer (if not yet handed over to the MC). The private sense usually just means control over stuff like parking, clamping, ramps, lighting etc.

It doesn't mean they're magic oases immune from law enforcement.

People might be better off spending the same amount of time not breaking the law instead of engaging in barrack room lawyering when they get caught.

infogiver

judeboy101 wrote: »

My driveway is open to esb/gas meter readers, postman, delivery man etc. I'm just curious could the land owner ask ags not to trespass on his property in this case the estate, without his permission?

No he couldn't

desbrook

Section 49 (4) b of the road traffic act: b) any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;”;

I have to say guys that by the defintion quoted a person's driveway IS a public place. The law doesn't distinguish between whether permission is needed to be there or whether a charge applies. It simply is a public place because a member of the public's car could drive there.

It would seem that a car being restored on a driveway needs to be taxed if one is to follow the letter of the law.

infogiver

judeboy101 wrote: »

My house is in off the row so people drive in with their cars but other posters say ags wont set up checkpoint in my driveway, can you explain the distinction ?

You have exclusive use of your driveway.
You don't have any say in who uses the road or pathway or anywhere else beyond the boundaries of your property.

Little CuChulainn

desbrook wrote: »

Section 49 (4) b of the road traffic act: b) any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;”;

I have to say guys that by the defintion quoted a person's driveway IS a public place. The law doesn't distinguish between whether permission is needed to be there or whether a charge applies. It simply is a public place because a member of the public's car could drive there.

It would seem that a car being restored on a driveway needs to be taxed if one is to follow the letter of the law.

The law has been interpreted by the courts. If i recall, the main case law in this area is in relation to a driveway to a private club. Even though cars had access to it, only members were supposed to use it so it was not considered a public place as access was supposed to be limited to a particular subset of the public. Same would apply to your driveway.