Farming and wildlife.

Chuchote

Would farmers generally try to leave some land for wildlife? Heartrending Ear to the Ground programme the other day about native Irish curlews being down to 25% of their number in some very short number of years.

Username John

Chuchote wrote: »

Would farmers generally try to leave some land for wildlife? Heartrending Ear to the Ground programme the other day about native Irish curlews being down to 25% of their number in some very short number of years.

Depends on the farm and the farmer I'd imagine...

I think most farmers try to be as kind to wildlife as they can, but farming is a business too. Its not as simple as just deciding to leave some land for wildlife, as there could easily be a financial impact to do so...

Odelay

Chuchote wrote: »

Would farmers generally try to leave some land for wildlife? Heartrending Ear to the Ground programme the other day about native Irish curlews being down to 25% of their number in some very short number of years.

It would be a bit like asking centra to leave 20% of their shelves empty or a manufacturing business to stop their production for an hour a day, sometimes it is just not viable.
Most farmers do enjoy wildlife and would like to support it.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Chuchote wrote: »

Would farmers generally try to leave some land for wildlife? Heartrending Ear to the Ground programme the other day about native Irish curlews being down to 25% of their number in some very short number of years.

If you leave land idle, it can only be done under an approved environmental scheme.

If you leave land idle without being approved for a scheme, the farmers Basic Payment Scheme can be cut by anything up to 100% for not having the land in Good Agricultural and Environmental Condition (GAEC)

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/publications/2011/annualreviewandoutlookforagriculturefisheriesandfood20102011/environment/capreformcrosscompliance/

amacca

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

If you leave land idle, it can only be done under an approved environmental scheme.

If you leave land idle without being approved for a scheme, the farmers Basic Payment Scheme can be cut by anything up to 100% for not having the land in Good Agricultural and Environmental Condition (GAEC)

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/publications/2011/annualreviewandoutlookforagriculturefisheriesandfood20102011/environment/capreformcrosscompliance/

Which is a bit ridiculous on the one hand they are paying for land to be left fallow and on the other hand they are punishing farmers financially when they do it for free

its all about control

tanko

Chuchote wrote: »

Would farmers generally try to leave some land for wildlife? Heartrending Ear to the Ground programme the other day about native Irish curlews being down to 25% of their number in some very short number of years.

That was Eco Eye the other day, interesting programme.
The problem with wildlife preservation in this country is that every weekend there's swarms of gob****es with dogs roaming the country blowing any bird they come across to bits.

Chuchote

Wait, I'm wrong, it was Eco Eye, I think, rather than Ear to the Ground.

I keep imagining a plant with only humans and their food sources left, no wildlife at all.

Mad4CHX

tanko wrote: »

That was Eco Eye the other day, interesting programme.
The problem with wildlife preservation in this country is that every weekend there's swarms of gob****es with dogs roaming the country blowing any bird they come across to bits.

Huge problem, usually young mindless idiots. Its a shame.

Lady Haywire

Chuchote wrote: »

Would farmers generally try to leave some land for wildlife? Heartrending Ear to the Ground programme the other day about native Irish curlews being down to 25% of their number in some very short number of years.

Intentionally or not there's a lot around here. Foxes are now very low on the ground, think they were overshot last year. Dunno if I should be happy or sad about that because they decimated a lot but they have their own part.
Leitrim has certain areas that can't be farmed, so I guess I prob haven't seen the same wildlife decimation as some counties have.

The curlews are one of the few coming back into their own here, walking on a summers night there's a pair if not more that cry around us. It's such a hauntingly beautiful call.

Chuchote

What Eco Eye was saying was that there are migrating curlews ok, but the native curlews that don't migrate are under heavy pressure.
Can't find the episode on the RTE Player.

JupiterKid

Very close to where my sister lives in Holland (in the Zaan region, about 25km north of Amsterdam) there is a large wildlife preservation zone where local farmers are given incentives to allow some of their lands - normally used for grazing cattle and sheep - to grow wild as meadows for birds and other wildlife. It seems to have worked out well and is a pleasure to cycle through on a sunny warm summers day.:)

Does Ireland have any of these part farmed/part wildlife zones? I don't mean SACs, but mixed use areas where wildlife is given breathing space.

Who2

There's absolutaly no shortage of foxes this year. I've never seen them as plentiful. The mild winter has left them out and feeding longer too. I've yet to see a hungry one this year. It's either no foxes or no rabbits around here so regardless of what people say it needs a bit of levelling.

casscass4444

Odelay wrote: »

It would be a bit like asking centra to leave 20% of their shelves empty or a manufacturing business to stop their production for an hour a day, sometimes it is just not viable.
Most farmers do enjoy wildlife and would like to support it.

Centra wouldn't be getting a grant or financial encouragement for their empty shelves though where the farmer would.
If you had wet rushy land in spots though it would be no harm to leave the wildlife a corner.might take them a while to get established but they would find it.
As for saying it's because of young lads all over the country following dogs with guns and shooting all the birds I wouldn't say that's true.
Around these parts shooting used to be a great hobby.every Sunday lads gathered with dogs and went off for the day,be it birds foxes or deer depending on what was in season.that was 70's 80's.back then a neighbor here had a great birddog.lads used to borrow him if the neighbor wasn't going himself.
Nowadays you wouldn't see any lad around here following a gun.easy to blame the young lads with dogs but there was a lot more young lads shooting back then and way more wildlife was around.
I'd be more inclined to blame changes in farming.more chemicals and way bigger machinery.if a lad goes into a meadow now cutting silage what hope would a bird have sitting on a clutch of eggs. The lad driving would never know unless he spotted a lock of feathers scattered.also soil compaction,loss of habitat with ditch clearing loss of food supply.it all has a knock on effect.

Chuchote

And that Eco Eye was talking about monocrops not providing enough variety of food for the little bit of grazing the birds would do, as well as the insects no longer being there for the birds.

Username John

I don't want to say wildlife and modern farming are at odds, as I don't think they are. But I do see places / times when modern farming practices don't suit all wildlife. But do changes in farming promote one type of wildlife albeit possibly at the expense of another?

The farmer must make a return too... the reality is wildlife isn't the top priority...

Is this a case of farmers do their best to both survive and look after wildlife where possible, but those looking in always think the farmer could do more?

Sam Kade

Chuchote wrote: »

Wait, I'm wrong, it was Eco Eye, I think, rather than Ear to the Ground.

I keep imagining a plant with only humans and their food sources left, no wildlife at all.

You are spending far too much time listening to scare stories in the media then. Intensive farming is around since the early 70's and there are still plenty wildlife around.

Birdnuts

Username John wrote: »

I don't want to say wildlife and modern farming are at odds, as I don't think they are. But I do see places / times when modern farming practices don't suit all wildlife. But do changes in farming promote one type of wildlife albeit possibly at the expense of another?

The farmer must make a return too... the reality is wildlife isn't the top priority...

Is this a case of farmers do their best to both survive and look after wildlife where possible, but those looking in always think the farmer could do more?

The thing is I don't think all the changes to more intensive systems have done much for farmers either. Most sectors appear to be in a permanent income crisis and the % coming back to farmers for every unit of livestock/cropping keeps falling. Despite this the government and many farm bodies continue to push the "production at any cost" system harder and harder. Its hard to see how all of this was worth the significant loss of farmland biodiversity, decline in water quality in our rivers/lakes over the past 50 years etc. It makes the whole "Green Island" food promotion look like a bit of a con really when you look at the reality of most production in this country. The fact that Ireland has the second lowest organic coverage in the EU says a lot - despite it being the one sector that has been consistently growing with regards to Western consumer demand.

Genghis Cant

In relation to wildlife a thought that struck me lately is the change in hedgerows in my life time.

I think the modern preoccupation with ' a neat back and sides' and over use of the flail hedge cutter is decimating hedgerows. There being battered to death year in year out.
A lot of modern hedges haven't the wherewithal to feed or shelter a wren!

Base price

JupiterKid wrote: »

Very close to where my sister lives in Holland (in the Zaan region, about 25km north of Amsterdam) there is a large wildlife preservation zone where local farmers are given incentives to allow some of their lands - normally used for grazing cattle and sheep - to grow wild as meadows for birds and other wildlife. It seems to have worked out well and is a pleasure to cycle through on a sunny warm summers day.:)

Does Ireland have any of these part farmed/part wildlife zones? I don't mean SACs, but mixed use areas where wildlife is given breathing space.

The new GLAS scheme is targeted for wild birds.
I was very disappointed that there was not an action that included the planting of areas that would cater for specific species (bees) wild flower meadows in particular.
All meadows must be maintained/farmed at appropriate times of the year in order to ensure their continued propagation.

pedigree 6

Birdnuts wrote: »

The thing is I don't think all the changes to more intensive systems have done much for farmers either. Most sectors appear to be in a permanent income crisis and the % coming back to farmers for every unit of livestock/cropping keeps falling. Despite this the government and many farm bodies continue to push the "production at any cost" system harder and harder. Its hard to see how all of this was worth the significant loss of farmland biodiversity, decline in water quality in our rivers/lakes over the past 50 years etc. It makes the whole "Green Island" food promotion look like a bit of a con really when you look at the reality of most production in this country. The fact that Ireland has the second lowest organic coverage in the EU says a lot - despite it being the one sector that has been consistently growing with regards to Western consumer demand.

If there is a decline and i'm not aware that there is. I thought it was improving.
It's down to dumping of sewage from towns and cities into the rivers or lakes.
But still even with this I thought the situation was improving with cleaner rivers and lakes??

White Clover

JupiterKid wrote: »

Very close to where my sister lives in Holland (in the Zaan region, about 25km north of Amsterdam) there is a large wildlife preservation zone where local farmers are given incentives to allow some of their lands - normally used for grazing cattle and sheep - to grow wild as meadows for birds and other wildlife. It seems to have worked out well and is a pleasure to cycle through on a sunny warm summers day.:)

Does Ireland have any of these part farmed/part wildlife zones? I don't mean SACs, but mixed use areas where wildlife is given breathing space.

Ireland is not some country with rolling plains of intensively farmed land going as far as the eye can see. You would be hard pushed to go 3 or 4 miles in the most intensively farmed areas before you will find a vein of poorer ground that is extensively farmed.
This along with all our streams, rivers and miles of hedge rows provide quite a lot of wildlife habitat.

Sam Kade

Genghis Cant wrote: »

In relation to wildlife a thought that struck me lately is the change in hedgerows in my life time.

I think the modern preoccupation with ' a neat back and sides' and over use of the flail hedge cutter is decimating hedgerows. There being battered to death year in year out.
A lot of modern hedges haven't the wherewithal to feed or shelter a wren!

But for every hedge that's cut tight there are many more that are never cut.

Sam Kade

White Clover wrote: »

Ireland is not some country with rolling plains of intensively farmed land going as far as the eye can see. You would be hard pushed to go 3 or 4 miles in the most intensively farmed areas before you will find a vein of poorer ground that is extensively farmed.
This along with all our streams, rivers and miles of hedge rows provide quite a lot of wildlife habitat.

Also plenty mountains.

Capercaillie

Sam Kade wrote: »

You are spending far too much time listening to scare stories in the media then. Intensive farming is around since the early 70's and there are still plenty wildlife around.

If so why is Corn bunting extinct? Corncrake/breeding curlew/breeding lapwing/breeding redshank/twite are all but gone. Skylark and yellowhammer decreasing rapidly.:mad:

White Clover

Capercaillie wrote: »

If so why is Corn bunting extinct? Corncrake/breeding curlew/breeding lapwing/breeding redshank/twite are all but gone. Skylark and yellowhammer decreasing rapidly.:mad:

Shur the dinosaur is gone too and the world didn't end.

Birdnuts

pedigree 6 wrote: »

If there is a decline and i'm not aware that there is. I thought it was improving.
It's down to dumping of sewage from towns and cities into the rivers or lakes.
But still even with this I thought the situation was improving with cleaner rivers and lakes??

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/number-of-high-quality-rivers-has-halved-429466.html

Doesn't make for good reading. Not just blaming poor farming practices eitheir, Of course inadequate sewage treatment is a big part of the problem and its an ongoing national disgrace that raw sewage is still being discharged into freshwater systems in this country.

Birdnuts

White Clover wrote: »

Shur the dinosaur is gone too and the world didn't end.

Natural extinctions are one thing - but man made extinctions have pushed this rate to many times this with damaging consequences for much of the planet with ultimately dire consequeces for people that depend on natural habitats for their livelyhoods eg. In SE Asia the destruction of coral reefs is destroying fish stocks with the navy's of China, India etc. now confiscating foreign fishing boats and scuttling them in many cases. Its unfair to future generations to leave a planet where the only wildlife left will be the likes of rats and cockroaches.

pedigree 6

Birdnuts wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/number-of-high-quality-rivers-has-halved-429466.html

Doesn't make for good reading. Not just blaming poor farming practices eitheir, Of course inadequate sewage treatment is a big part of the problem and its an ongoing national disgrace that raw sewage is still being discharged into freshwater systems in this country.

Another thing that people never think about either is more motorways and dual carriageways being built now and runoff from these. I'm not against them but i'm just saying it will be an increased factor compared to the past.

tayto lover

Birdnuts wrote: »

Natural extinctions are one thing - but man made extinctions have pushed this rate to many times this with damaging consequences for much of the planet with ultimately dire consequeces for people that depend on natural habitats for their livelyhoods eg. In SE Asia the destruction of coral reefs is destroying fish stocks with the navy's of China, India etc. now confiscating foreign fishing boats and scuttling them in many cases. Its unfair to future generations to leave a planet where the only wildlife left will be the likes of rats and cockroaches.

Bees very much in decline too due to the use of pesticides it seems.

Capercaillie

White Clover wrote: »

Shur the dinosaur is gone too and the world didn't end.

All those species went into terminal decline with advent of intensive agriculture.

Base price

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Another thing that people never think about either is more motorways and dual carriageways being built now and runoff from these. I'm not against them but i'm just saying it will be an increased factor compared to the past.

I regularly travel the M3 and when it was built they constructed lined lagoons to take the run off. These lagoons have matured over the years with vegetation growing wild on their edges. I see plenty of small birds around them so I presume they are thriving habits in their own right.

Birdnuts

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Another thing that people never think about either is more motorways and dual carriageways being built now and runoff from these. I'm not against them but i'm just saying it will be an increased factor compared to the past.

I'm a realist when it comes to these things - of course the country needs proper infrastructure like roads etc. Its just that I think much unnecessary damage has been done to our Natural Heritage by poor planning, poor landuse policies, and in a few cases, out and out corruption.

pedigree 6

Sam Kade wrote: »

You are spending far too much time listening to scare stories in the media then. Intensive farming is around since the early 70's and there are still plenty wildlife around.

Deer, badgers and foxes are doing well anyway.:p

Fuzzy Clam

There's a field near me that the owner has planted up with some crop for birds. I'm sure what it is but it certainly attracts dozens of Starlings and finches.

tanko

Base price wrote: »

The new GLAS scheme is targeted for wild birds.
I was very disappointed that there was not an action that included the planting of areas that would cater for specific species (bees) wild flower meadows in particular.
All meadows must be maintained/farmed at appropriate times of the year in order to ensure their continued propagation.

Around here the gun clubs are paying farmers some of the cost of establishing the wild bird covers for Glas as long as the farmers allow them to blow away any unfortunate birds that happen to be there when they come along.
You couldn't make it up.

tayto lover

tanko wrote: »

Around here the gun clubs are paying farmers some of the cost of establishing the wild bird covers for Glas as long as the farmers allow them to blow away any unfortunate birds that happen to be there when they come along.
You couldn't make it up.

Anyone who could shoot nearly tame pheasants is no hunter. Gobshytes.

Birdnuts

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Deer, badgers and foxes are doing well anyway.:p

Intensive farming does benefit a handful of species - but unfortunately many of these are the most hardy and adaptable and in many cases were already pest species like crows and pigeons. Meanwhile the farmers friends in terms of owls or well loved species like Corncrakes etc. loose out:(

Base price

tanko wrote: »

Around here the gun clubs are paying farmers some of the cost of establishing the wild bird covers for Glas as long as the farmers allow them to blow away any unfortunate birds that happen to be there when they come along.
You couldn't make it up.

That's disgraceful. With that sort of attitude biodiversity does not stand a chance.

Birdnuts

tanko wrote: »

Around here the gun clubs are paying farmers some of the cost of establishing the wild bird covers for Glas as long as the farmers allow them to blow away any unfortunate birds that happen to be there when they come along.
You couldn't make it up.

There are a few bad apples out there for shure. But I can only speak about the local gun clubs in areas I know and the likes of the Blesssington Game club do great work for nature and strictly adhere to the wildlife laws in this country in terms of game shooting and hunting seasons.

Username John

Birdnuts wrote: »

Intensive farming does benefit a handful of species - but unfortunately many of these are the most hardy and adaptable and in many cases were already pest species like crows and pigeons. Meanwhile the farmers friends in terms of owls or well loved species like Corncrakes etc. loose out:(

But will this not happen anyway? Surely any species that can't adapt, well, the writing is on the wall?

Not saying we shouldn't try to keep them... but at the same time, we can't force the world to stand still either...

Birdnuts

Username John wrote: »

But will this not happen anyway? Surely any species that can't adapt, well, the writing is on the wall?

Not saying we shouldn't try to keep them... but at the same time, we can't force the world to stand still either...

I think your missing my point - I don't expect the world to standstill either, my point was that a lot the damage done to our natural heritage is entirely avoidable and unnecessary for a richer/better society. The CAP being a prime example, it has failed to halt declining farmer numbers and incomes, and has instead enriched a few in big business while having devastating effect on our farmland habitats, water quality etc.. The problem in this country is that the outdated and inaccurate view that "progress" = destruction of nature, still appears to be embedded at many levels of government, business etc.

Username John

Birdnuts wrote: »

I think your missing my point - I don't expect the world to standstill either, my point was that a lot the damage done to our natural heritage is entirely avoidable and unnecessary for a richer/better society. The CAP being a prime example, it has failed to half declining farmer numbers and incomes, and has instead enriched a few in big business while having devastating effect on our farmland habitats, water quality etc.. The problem in this country is that the outdated and inaccurate view that "progress" = destruction of nature, still appears to be embedded at many levels of government, business etc.

I agree - it's hard to know what to do with the CAP...

So what's the solution / alternative?

Username John

Let's say the CAP didn't exist or disappeared - and farmers were paid good money for their produce...

Do you see farming practices changing in favour of wildlife in this scenario?

Capercaillie

Username John wrote: »

But will this not happen anyway? Surely any species that can't adapt, well, the writing is on the wall?

Not saying we shouldn't try to keep them... but at the same time, we can't force the world to stand still either...

It would not take much effort to save the corncrake or lapwing. Nobody is saying go back to the days cutting hay with a scythe! Unfortunately the mé féin attitude is very common in Ireland to the determent of the fragments of farmland wildlife left.

Username John

Capercaillie wrote: »

It would not take much effort to save the corncrake or lapwing. Nobody is saying go back to the days cutting hay with a scythe! Unfortunately the mé féin attitude is very common in Ireland to the determent of the fragments of farmland wildlife left.

What would it take?

And what's the me fein attitude?

rangler1

Capercaillie wrote: »

It would not take much effort to save the corncrake or lapwing. Nobody is saying go back to the days cutting hay with a scythe! Unfortunately the mé féin attitude is very common in Ireland to the determent of the fragments of farmland wildlife left.

The environmentalist did a good job on the corncrake letting their breeding grounds flood year after year by obstructing river maintenance,
When they get their act together I'm sure farmers will too.
You're like a neighbour here telling me he never sees little birds around his house because of my farming practises, he has about a dozen cats that are constantly in the ditches robbing birds nests.
It's evolution, wildlife, farmers, rural business, etc etc will all go the same way if they can't adapt to change,
Thousand of tree sown and thousand of acres wild beside motorways, most motorways had a landtake 50% wider than the road, between that and the profit in farming there was never as much waste land in the country

Birdnuts

Username John wrote: »

Let's say the CAP didn't exist or disappeared - and farmers were paid good money for their produce...

Do you see farming practices changing in favour of wildlife in this scenario?

The CAP should be re-engineered to reward farmers for public goods like protection of watersheds and farming practices that sustain biodiversity and landscapes that are the basis of our tourism and food marketing. This kind of thing would also have greater public support too, rather than the negative press farming gets when folks read about large landowners and corporations pocking 6 figure SFP payments. It would also remove the mania for excessive production that invariably leads to low farmgate prices. Indeed there has been attempts by the EU commission and many member states to go down this route, but they have met stern resistance by the usual suspects, disgracefully this state and certain Irish MEP's being prime movers against such reforms.

yosemitesam1

Username John wrote: »

Let's say the CAP didn't exist or disappeared - and farmers were paid good money for their produce...

Do you see farming practices changing in favour of wildlife in this scenario?

The current system promoted isn't sustainable anyway so the question is will change come after its absolutely ran into the ground with no option but change or will the consumer become wise?

Mooooo

Birdnuts wrote: »

The CAP should be re-engineered to reward farmers for public goods like protection of watersheds and farming practices that sustain biodiversity and landscapes that are the basis of our tourism and food marketing. This kind of thing would also have greater public support too, rather than the negative press farming gets when folks read about large landowners and corporations pocking 6 figure SFP payments. It would also remove the mania for excessive production that invariably leads to low farmgate prices. Indeed there has been attempts by the EU commission and many member states to go down this route, but they have met stern resistance by the usual suspects, disgracefully this state and certain Irish MEP's being prime movers against such reforms.

Problem is we export near on everything, and a decrease in our production will not effect world markets nor guarantee us a sustainably better price, possibly in beef there may be a lift but certainly not in dairy. As the market becomes more and more globalised how will such schemes help a full time farmer to provide a full income?

blue5000

Birdnuts wrote: »

The CAP should be re-engineered to reward farmers for public goods like protection of watersheds and farming practices that sustain biodiversity and landscapes that are the basis of our tourism and food marketing. This kind of thing would also have greater public support too, rather than the negative press farming gets when folks read about large landowners and corporations pocking 6 figure SFP payments. It would also remove the mania for excessive production that invariably leads to low farmgate prices. Indeed there has been attempts by the EU commission and many member states to go down this route, but they have met stern resistance by the usual suspects, disgracefully this state and certain Irish MEP's being prime movers against such reforms.

I hear this is the way 2020 CAP review is headed.

Ironically I'm being penalised for scrub which at present is providing loads of cover for small songbirds. It's a mix of native species, ash, hawthorn, blackthorn, furze, a bit of holly and oak. The irony is that I'm being paid to clear it all out and plant wild bird cover as part of GLAS.

It's exactly the same as dumping caught fish overboard because of quotas. Why can't I be paid the wild bird cover rate/ha just to leave it alone? Instead I have to burn it and plant a cereal crop for rats. Crazy doesn't even begin to describe it.

Capercaillie

Username John wrote: »

What would it take?

And what's the me fein attitude?

It's systemic:
CAP, Government, IFA
Emphasis on production and nothing else.