Owning a high mileage leaf

BoatMad

We are currently looking at 50k Km on its first anniversary on the 30kwh leaf. We are extremely pleased with the car ( that's an understatement )

However I've been thinking of what to do when the PCP is up in early 2018. At that point it looks as if we'll have 150K km.

Firstly I wonder when well loose the first bar ( yes ML I will post the leafspy , just keep forgetting about it )

The GMFV will be 10K.

Should we ,

(A) keep it , forever ? , use it as a 2nd EV , for me exclusively , but at 4,5,6,7 years will it be even usable

(B) trade it at the end of the PCP , presumably the value could be low ( 5k ? ) that's fine

(c) trade it sooner , before the first bar is lost for another EV ( prob leaf or Hyundai

(D) another strategy


Bearing in mind within the PCP timeframe , my partner will likely retire and the mileage will drop considerably

( or if she doesn't , it would justify a new car spend etc )

Decisions , decisions

isnottheword

Just to throw an option in under Category D, IF it works out that you intend to keep it, bear in mind Mike Schooling refurbishes older batteries - for approximately £1500 at present.

Still seems a bit expensive - but I'd wager that these prices will drop (as should replacement new batteries) as time goes on. Then again, bear in mind that on an ICE, to swap out timing belt & water pump costs a big chunk of this cost in itself.

His company = indra.co.uk . He's an active contributor on the speakev forum - and seems to have built up a respected reputation amongst the UK EV community. He guarantees restoration to 90% capacity if memory serves me.


You may decide to go a different route - but just throwing that out there - just in case it suits your circumstances to hold on to the car for the long haul.

invara

I have two leafs (leaves?), a 142 with almost 100k km and a 11 one with 80k km. Both have lost a bar and the range works for me; and will continue to work for the foreseeable.

The simple answer is to drive them into the ground as long as the range continues to work for you; particularly as they have very low maintenance costs (which kick in as a bigger saving as the car gets older). Most cars are substantially depreciated when the hit 100k miles (160k km). This is almost certainly going to be the cheapest option given EVs higher depreciation profile.

If the range starts to stop working for you, then you should trade and take whatever depreciation hit is coming to you.

How are these cars even considered environment friendly or a smart investment when a poster asks is his car even useable after 5,6,7 years. How does that make sense on either?

KCross

With that high mileage the car is almost certainly going to be worth less than you GMFV so paying more than the car is worth cant be a good idea so I'd say option A and B are an absolute no IMO (but each to their own).

C.... do you mean trade it before the PCP is up or do you mean buy it and then trade it maybe on year 4, 5 etc?
Again, anything that involves you handing over €10k at the end of the 3 years is wasted money IMO

I go for D. Hand the car back and buy another EV

Casati

Maybe you should consider if diesel would be better in your situation?

cros13

Casati wrote: »

Maybe you should consider if diesel would be better in your situation?

Why would he do that? It's €5000-7000/year cheaper to run the EV than an equivalent 2.0 or 2.2 diesel. Diesel is ten to twelve times the price of electricity. And no real maintenance beyond an cabin air filter until 200,000km. I do 10-20% higher mileage on my EV than BoatMad. The day you go EV is like getting a big salary bump. My i3 is going in for it's first service the end of the month with close to 110,000km on the clock.

If it wasn't a PCP, I'd say keep it.... and in 10 years you'll still have a grocery getter you can just pop a new battery in if it makes financial sense.

650Ginge

cros13 wrote: »

Why would he do that? It's €5000-7000/year cheaper to run the EV than an equivalent 2.0 or 2.2 diesel. Diesel is ten to twelve times the price of electricity. And no real maintenance beyond an cabin air filter until 200,000km. I do 10-20% higher mileage on my EV than BoatMad. The day you go EV is like getting a big salary bump. My i3 is going in for it's first service the end of the month with close to 110,000km on the clock.

If it wasn't a PCP, I'd say keep it.... and in 10 years you'll still have a grocery getter you can just pop a new battery in if it makes financial sense.

Most others seem to calculate an EV at about 2.4c per km and diesel at 6c per km.

I imagine maintenance is a good bit less.

DrPhilG

I'm saving €2200 a year compared to my diesel. If I was to end up needing to recondition my battery after 6-7 years which costs less than one year of that saving then that's a pretty good deal.

isnottheword

Isla Squeaking Xerox wrote: »

How are these cars even considered environment friendly or a smart investment when a poster asks is his car even useable after 5,6,7 years. How does that make sense on either?

It's not that simple. He's asking the question as ..

A. there are no Leafs around of that vintage - so who can say for sure.

B. Nissan maintain they have a design life of 10 years - which is reasonable (and again, we will have to see).

C. As another poster has pointed out, they tend to be much lower when it comes to maintenance costs - and the hope would be that this would come into its own as the Leaf ages (battery aside).

D. They may suit someone that does city runs/shorter runs/second car, etc. as they get older (if the battery range declines). For that reason, I suspect there will be a residual market for such cars when the time comes.

You're also forgetting that there's a lot of savings being made by EV drivers right now on fuel. If I get as far as August with fees on fuel, I'll have pocketed €2600 in the year.

cros13

650Ginge wrote: »

Most others seem to calculate an EV at about 2.4c per km and diesel at 6c per km.

Definitely not, in the region of 1c/km is more realistic. Most EV drivers use nightsaver (including the OP) at 5-8c/kWh (I pay 5.33c/kWh) rather than the retail undiscounted 24H rate. Personally, I've moved enough loads to the nightsaver rate that my bills are below my pre-EV bills... and again... I commute to Dublin from Portlaoise every day.

Vs 2010 2.0 D4D Avensis (the best I got was 6.4L/100km, diesel for the commute alone cost me ~€20/day) on the same route I'm saving €7000/year in combined fuel and maintenance (and I have ODBII logs to prove it).... for an EV with 40kW (55PS) more motor power. I now use less than €2/day of electricity, and only pay for €1.20 of that.

However... as I said my post-EV electricity bills are actually lower...basically I pay for tires and washer fluid....

cros13

Boatmad, I'd say it depends on the terms of your PCP. You may get a lower mileage Leaf than your own for the GMFV....or you may be contractually obliged to pay enough per km that buying the car is worth it.

On the other hand... purchasing a new EV you may have enough leverage that you can come out on-top.... though I doubt it... when we're talking 50kWh+ EVs I'd reckon on production constraints limiting supply enough for the foreseeable future that you won't have a great negotiating position.

n97 mini

650Ginge wrote: »

Most others seem to calculate an EV at about 2.4c per km and diesel at 6c per km.

I imagine maintenance is a good bit less.

Most would (on the back of a cigarette box) estimate the running costs of an ICE to be 5x that of an EV. That's assuming no ICE catastrophic failures like a blown turbo, dpf or dmf.

Op, drive it into the ground. Even when the battery has lost too much capacity to be convenient a refurb will cost you no more than any one of the above.

650Ginge

cros13 wrote: »

Definitely not, in the region of 1c/km is more realistic. Most EV drivers use nightsaver (including the OP) at 5-8c/kWh (I pay 5.33c/kWh) rather than the retail undiscounted 24H rate. Personally, I've moved enough loads to the nightsaver rate that my bills are below my pre-EV bills... and again... I commute to Dublin from Portlaoise every day.

Vs 2010 2.0 D4D Avensis (the best I got was 6.4L/100km, diesel for the commute alone cost me ~€20/day) on the same route I'm saving €7000/year in combined fuel and maintenance (and I have ODBII logs to prove it).... for an EV with 40kW (55PS) more motor power. I now use less than €2/day of electricity, and only pay for €1.20 of that.

OK I don't have a leaf or any electric car (But I am going to look at the Ioniq tomorrow) but you pay higher standing charge to have night rate, also pay a higher day time rate than without night tariff and standing charge and the future use of free street chargers is being review if not gone already.

Also a leaf and an Avensis aren't in the same class, a golf maybe, and some of them are pushing under 4L/100kms. I get 5.6l/100 from a 520d but I do baby it, something I got from 4 years of Prius ownership.

I can never make the figures work for a leaf for me. But that said having driven Leaf it is not just about the money, tomorrow morning when I start that German tractor I will wish I am in a leaf.

I watch pretty much all Bjorn Nylands videos and the one where he did the 600kms in two days in a Leaf to pick up a dog shows what you can do in a Leaf. But because he could not use the free Tesla superchargers he had to pay equiv €25 for a single charge. €7-8 on other occasions. He didn't get 100miles out of any of those charges, best was 130 odd kms, so it cost at 7-8c a mile and up to 25c a mile.

Sorry going off on a tangent, but I suppose the point is don't be construing the figures in the best way to suit your argument, people actually take as Gospel what they read on boards and it isn't that simple.:-)

650Ginge

n97 mini wrote: »

Most would (on the back of a cigarette box) estimate the running costs of an ICE to be 5x that of an EV. That's assuming no ICE catastrophic failures like a blown turbo, dpf or dmf.

Op, drive it into the ground. Even when the battery has lost too much capacity to be convenient a refurb will cost you no more than any one of the above.

Or a £700 door handle for a two year old 50k Model S.

As yet we don't know what a leaf will cost long term. They still have bearings and bushings, shocks etc.....there will be bills if you have it long enough.

n97 mini

650Ginge wrote: »

Or a £700 door handle for a two year old 50k Model S.

As yet we don't know what a leaf will cost long term. They still have bearings and bushings, shocks etc.....there will be bills if you have it long enough.

If you paid £700 for a door handle you need to befriend a good independent mechanic, or do it yourself. There is nothing in the Leaf door handle that justifies that price.

As for bushes and bearings, they're long term wear and tear items, and don't require any more attention than any other car, and they're not particularly expensive either.

cros13

650Ginge wrote: »

standing charge to have night rate, also pay a higher day time rate than without night tariff and standing charge

Standing charge goes up by €50/year, you get payback on that in the first month or two of the year if you have an EV. Day rate goes up usually by 1c/kWh...but during nightsaver hours the rate drops by 8-9c/kWh. I use pretty much dead on 10,000kWh per year. 60.5% of my power consumption for the last 12 month was during nightsaver hours. An aggressively negotiated nightsaver tariff is cheaper at all times than someone paying standard 24 hour rates.

I move supplier regularly. My current rates with Energia are a substantial discount on their standard 24h unit rate (16.65c/kWh). I pay 12.23c/kWh during the day and 5.33c/kWh during nightsaver hours.

650Ginge wrote: »

Also a leaf and an Avensis aren't in the same class, a golf maybe, and some of them are pushing under 4L/100kms. I get 5.6l/100 from a 520d but I do baby it, something I got from 4 years of Prius ownership.

I own a Leaf as well (161 30kWh...replaced a 141 24kWh) but I was actually talking about my i3 (twice the power to weight). Even so Leaf has the same HP and torque as a 2.0 D4D Avensis but full torque from zero RPM. The Leaf is taller with a longer wheelbase, about 4cm thinner and shorter but with a bigger passenger volume... smaller boot... but it's not that far off...

While 4L/100km may be listed in the specs for some cars, and some drivers on fuel efficient routes may even have seen those numbers, in general they should be taken with a liberal pinch of salt. I was talking about my actual recorded fuel economy on a near 200km commute with a mix of motorway and city and over an hour stuck in traffic each way.

650Ginge wrote: »

construing the figures in the best way to suit your argument, people actually take as Gospel what they read on boards and it isn't that simple.:-)

It's true that every person's situation is different and there are people EVs don't suit... but while I do cast the EV in a positive light I have the data to back my numbers up.... to an extreme level of detail.

I not only have full fuel and energy consumption data for every single trip I've taken for the last six years, I have GPS logging, temperature data and dashcam footage as well. I've even got calibrated individual in-line metering before each chargepoint feeding data back to my smart home at 2 second intervals 24/7/365. When I ran diesel I mostly used my own gravity fed tank at home which I also have full records of fuel quality testing for. In that six year period I've purchased five cars, 2010 Avensis, 2012 Avensis, 141 Leaf, 151 i3 and 161 Leaf. So I even have replication with multiple vehicles of each sample set. I did take the peak retail price I paid for diesel but I think that's fair... fossil fuel prices are substantially more volatile than electricity rates and you have far less control over your future fuel costs vs an EV.

650Ginge wrote: »

As yet we don't know what a leaf will cost long term. They still have bearings and bushings, shocks etc.....there will be bills if you have it long enough.

True... but I've put a fair amount on mileage on my Leafs and as of right now there are a further four leafs owned my extended family and soon to be joined by an Ioniq as well. So we've seen things like crash repairs, windscreen replacements, v. high and v. low mileage etc.

There are things which are more expensive. For example Tires.... the Leaf goes through them at least 10-20% quicker than previous vehicles. My i3 eats it's rather expensive tires in half the mileage of the Leaf (at 100,000km I'm on the 3rd full set of summers and literally ordering the 2nd set of winters in another tab).

Crash repairs to the front of the Leaf are reasonable unless any of the powertrain components are affected. Costs have dropped but at one point replacing the assembly which holds the charging ports was over €2000.
Crash repairs on the i3 are cheaper than a 1-series until you go near any part directly connected to the CFRP frame (like the clips that hold the body panels in place or the plastic the windscreen sits on). A windscreen replacement by someone who is unfamiliar with the car and uses a steel wire to remove the old windscreen can literally turn the whole car into a write-off.

On the other hand, at 60,000km my i3's brake discs were only 4% to 6% worn.

KCross

cros13 wrote: »

I move supplier regularly. My current rates with Energia are a substantial discount on their standard 24h unit rate (16.65c/kWh). I pay 12.23c/kWh during the day and 5.33c/kWh during nightsaver hours.

5c/kWh is exceptionally low for a domestic account. How did you get those rates? Do they include Vat?

The cheapest Energia advertise on their website is 8.44c inc vat.

Did you negotiate price based on being a high volume user? i.e. just pick up the phone and request a further discount?

cros13

KCross wrote: »

5c/kWh is exceptionally low for a domestic account. How did you get those rates? Do they include Vat?

The cheapest Energia advertise on their website is 8.44c inc vat.

Ex VAT. In this case the cheapest rate (33% discount on standard unit rates) was only available through bonkers.ie.

KCross wrote: »

Did you negotiate price based on being a high volume user? i.e. just pick up the phone and request a further discount?

The bonkers deal got me down to 5.83c/kWh on the night rate. I picked up the phone and got another 0.5c/kWh off 'cause I moved three properties on the same account, two of which are 10,000kWh/year accounts.
Just for context 10,000kWh is double national average household consumption. I have lab equipment/computers running 24/7. Two/three EVs charging, Washer, Heat-Pump dryer and dishwasher running at night saver. Showers in the morning, some electric spot heating and small device charging is also on nightsaver. I've shift LED grow lighting and aeration pumps for my hydroponics and aeroponics to operate from 01:00 to 17:00 in winter to maximise natural light use and energy costs.

The original plan I moved to was called "Clever Electricity (Web Exclusive 33%)". It's also a 100% renewables plan.

Casati

I said maybe OP should consider diesel largely due to the depreciation, which is way bigger than the fuel cost - demand for a 150,000km Leaf is likely to be very weak based on the rapid depreciation seen for second-hand minimal mileage cars already.

If the OP's estimate is correct, and the Leaf is worth 5,000 when the PCP period ends , then it will have cost crica 25k plus interest for three years plus eletricity and any repairs etc. The only options unless they can trade it now for new car, I guess is to keep it unless the battery gives up the ghost or else suffer the depreciation

Demand for good quality 3 year old diesels with 150,000km is still very high- I'd estimate total three year depreciation on an equivalent 22k Focus or Corolla to be less than 12k. Fuel cost on one of these should be circa 3k per annum (2.5k ex vat!) for 50,000 km assuming OP is driving main roads. If ESB start charging as planned then most EV's owners ownership cost will increase dramatically - something to think about too

Ques: Im surprised to hear there are no servicing costs at all for Leaf's, I understood they still needed a 30km/ 12 month service / stamp on the book, to keep the warranty?

KCross

Casati wrote: »

If ESB start charging as planned then most EV's owners ownership cost will increase dramatically - something to think about too

Not at all.

It will have zero effect for most people. 90+%(on average) of your charging is done at home.

Alot of people dont use the public network at all.

If someone bought an EV on the basis of free public charging then, yes, they are screwed (Taxi drivers etc).

As longer range EV's come on the market the public network becomes even less relevant.

DrPhilG

Casati wrote: »

Ques: Im surprised to hear there are no servicing costs at all for Leaf's, I understood they still needed a 30km/ 12 month service / stamp on the book, to keep the warranty?

Around €100 a year for the service.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

With that high mileage the car is almost certainly going to be worth less than you GMFV so paying more than the car is worth cant be a good idea so I'd say option A and B are an absolute no IMO (but each to their own).

C.... do you mean trade it before the PCP is up or do you mean buy it and then trade it maybe on year 4, 5 etc?
Again, anything that involves you handing over €10k at the end of the 3 years is wasted money IMO

I go for D. Hand the car back and buy another EV

@BoatMad, if you hand the car back is there a per km penalty? If there is, that would change the options quite a bit.


What is the penalty per km and what are you allowed per year?

zilog_jones

DrPhilG wrote: »

Around €100 a year for the service.

Surely brake fluid and coolant should be changed every few years? I think they are in the Leaf service schedule for every 2-3 years or something like that. Can't imagine that would be particularly cheap if done at a main dealer. But then again it's nothing like a modern diesel with DMF, DPF, EGR valve and all the other expensive acronyms that tend to break - which can easily surpass the cost of battery reconditioning.

I moved from a diesel to a PHEV and have halved my fuel costs ("fuel" = petrol + leccy, don't know about maintenance yet), but that combined with lower tax, etc. has been totally negated by moving from a 9 year old car (paid in cash) vs. 4 year old (bank loan) - in reality the total costs are twice as much

The future for Diesels is a lot more uncertain, resale value could be less in 3-5 years and electric range dramatically improves and people start buying low range electrics as the 2nd car or even their main car.

There are much stricter emissions tests on the way too, I bet manufacturers simply won't be arsed making diesels after all there is really no need for them as it is, everything could be gas, electric and petrol plug in etc. There is a lot easier ways to pass emissions tests.

cros13

Casati wrote: »

I said maybe OP should consider diesel largely due to the depreciation, which is way bigger than the fuel cost - demand for a 150,000km Leaf is likely to be very weak based on the rapid depreciation seen for second-hand minimal mileage cars already.

What rapid depreciation? Leafs are still beating most ICE Nissans despite temporary pressure on the market here with thousands of Leafs coming off lease in the UK all at once. I traded in a 141 Leaf last February with 65k km against a new 161 30kWh (with a higher RRP) for €4500. There no Mk1.5 132/141 Leafs on carzone listed for below ~€13k despite the fact they were available new for a little as €17k (XE rapid) with scrappage those years.

Casati wrote: »

If the OP's estimate is correct, and the Leaf is worth 5,000 when the PCP period ends

GMFV ≠ Future Value

Casati wrote: »

equivalent 22k Focus or Corolla

Those are smaller vehicles with lower performance.

Casati wrote: »

Fuel cost on one of these should be circa 3k per annum (2.5k ex vat!) for 50,000 km assuming OP is driving main roads.

I'm not convinced of that.

Casati wrote: »

If ESB start charging as planned then most EV's owners ownership cost will increase dramatically - something to think about too

<snip>... 95% of the average EV driver's charging is done at home. Even for high mileage users like myself home charging provides 80%+ of the power that runs our cars... and that's when the infrastructure is free... introduce any fees and opportunistic charging disappears resulting in even less public charging.

Casati wrote: »

Ques: Im surprised to hear there are no servicing costs at all for Leaf's, I understood they still needed a 30km/ 12 month service / stamp on the book, to keep the warranty?

€99 for the annual inspection / €129 for every 2nd year when the brake fluid is done. At 150,000 the OP will be effectively at the end of the powertrain warranty and does not need to do any more than the brake fluid until 15 years / 200,000km when the coolant gets replaced. After that coolant every 5 years / 100,000km. Brake pads and discs see almost no wear. Bearings are sealed and suffer less stress than on ICE vehicles.

You have to remember that almost all EV drivers have plenty of long term experience of ICE vehicles. Whereas the reverse is very uncommon.

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

Boatmad, I'd say it depends on the terms of your PCP. You may get a lower mileage Leaf than your own for the GMFV....or you may be contractually obliged to pay enough per km that buying the car is worth it.

On the other hand... purchasing a new EV you may have enough leverage that you can come out on-top.... though I doubt it... when we're talking 50kWh+ EVs I'd reckon on production constraints limiting supply enough for the foreseeable future that you won't have a great negotiating position.

just bear in mind how PCPs work.

If I elect to walk away , ( which isn't really much of an option) then the penalty milage will be applied and given is high Im going to end up paying 50% of the GMFV anyway.

In all cases in works out the same , Ill pay the GMFV and net against that whatever the residual value of the car will be. since I need another car, if the commercial residual is very low, then it makes sense to keep it

BoatMad

Casati wrote: »

I said maybe OP should consider diesel largely due to the depreciation, which is way bigger than the fuel cost -

with PCPs at zero percent, demand for 150Km any sort of car is very low ,, but at least a 150KM EV will be virtually free to run , currently I save about 500 euros a month against previous fuel bills, thats a lot of money over three years , easy cope with the depreciation ( which is likely to be 5K more then GMFV IMO)

past experience in 2015 was our fuel bills between two cars came close to 600 euros a month ! the reason that the leaf is seeing so much use is that most of the mileage on the second ICE has been transferred to the EV, the diesel hardly moves expect for times when we need it

demand for a 150,000km Leaf is likely to be very weak based on the rapid depreciation seen for second-hand minimal mileage cars already.

thats primarily a function of a certain amount of cheap leafs imported from the UK, demand for used Leafs is still good in EV terms ( 24 registered in Dec)
a

If the OP's estimate is correct, and the Leaf is worth 5,000 when the PCP period ends , then it will have cost crica 25k plus interest for three years plus eletricity and any repairs etc. The only options unless they can trade it now for new car, I guess is to keep it unless the battery gives up the ghost or else suffer the depreciation

sure I dont think trading now makes sense , Ill see what the garage might offer, but demand for new Leafs is being hilt by model expectation and UK imports

Demand for good quality 3 year old diesels with 150,000km is still very high- I'd estimate total three year depreciation on an equivalent 22k Focus or Corolla to be less than 12k. Fuel cost on one of these should be circa 3k per annum (2.5k ex vat!) for 50,000 km assuming OP is driving main roads. If ESB start charging as planned then most EV's owners ownership cost will increase dramatically - something to think about too

NO my savings are based on home & work charging , public charger use is minimal in the context of that.

fuel was running at 5-6K between two vehicles
my next door neighbour has bought an immaculate 07 diesel 80K km for 3500 cash , yep diesel residuals are great !!!

Ques: Im surprised to hear there are no servicing costs at all for Leaf's, I understood they still needed a 30km/ 12 month service / stamp on the book, to keep the warranty?

anuual service faeries from 99- 120 euros depending on A or B device each consecutive year


Ive owed stacks of diesels ( and I continue to own one ) , they get hugely expensive as they age , turbos go, DPF goes, EGR valves etc etc , massive money top keep on the road


whatever the options its not diesel , fuel process are climbing , the tax will be rebalanced, and I suspect the motor tax will hammer diesels in the next few years

Diesel are dead really

Casati

BoatMad wrote: »

with PCPs at zero percent, demand for 150Km any sort of car is very low ,, but at least a 150KM EV will be virtually free to run , currently I save about 500 euros a month against previous fuel bills, thats a lot of money over three years , easy cope with the depreciation ( which is likely to be 5K more then GMFV IMO)

past experience in 2015 was our fuel bills between two cars came close to 600 euros a month ! the reason that the leaf is seeing so much use is that most of the mileage on the second ICE has been transferred to the EV, the diesel hardly moves expect for times when we need it




thats primarily a function of a certain amount of cheap leafs imported from the UK, demand for used Leafs is still good in EV terms ( 24 registered in Dec)
a



sure I dont think trading now makes sense , Ill see what the garage might offer, but demand for new Leafs is being hilt by model expectation and UK imports


NO my savings are based on home & work charging , public charger use is minimal in the context of that.

fuel was running at 5-6K between two vehicles
my next door neighbour has bought an immaculate 07 diesel 80K km for 3500 cash , yep diesel residuals are great !!!


anuual service faeries from 99- 120 euros depending on A or B device each consecutive year


Ive owed stacks of diesels ( and I continue to own one ) , they get hugely expensive as they age , turbos go, DPF goes, EGR valves etc etc , massive money top keep on the road


whatever the options its not diesel , fuel process are climbing , the tax will be rebalanced, and I suspect the motor tax will hammer diesels in the next few years

Diesel are dead really

My main point is around depreciation, but if your satisfied that wont be an issue then yeah for sure your probably as well off simply trading after three years with 5k equity in yours - it will be really cheap motoring if that works out for you.

Toyotafanboi

Let's try and remember our manners re: swearing, gents.

BoatMad

Casati wrote: »

My main point is around depreciation, but if your satisfied that wont be an issue then yeah for sure your probably as well off simply trading after three years with 5k equity in yours - it will be really cheap motoring if that works out for you.

depreciation on Leafs is being driven by a surplus of recent second hand gen 2 battery models in the UK , that the VRT concession is making " too" competitive . Its not function of the model or the EV market in general. Im fairly confident of that , because before the availability of UK cars , residuals were reasonably good

The depreciation will be as I suspect , about 50% of GMFV , maybe a little better against a new Nissan.

Yes its really cheap motoring , the savings are real and are tracked and we can see it in the bank account

in reality one years savings covers the additional depreciation

The issue will boil down to keep it or trade, what I need to determine where the sweet spot is in settlement payment against trade in value , If I get better then 5K loss, then early trade is is worth considering

Ill get a valuation at the next service soon. Id dont expect it to be good

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Yes its really cheap motoring , the savings are real and are tracked and we can see it in the bank account

Yes, especially when half my 140 odd km commute is free !

If I had 40 Kwh then the work charge point would meet 100% of my commute !

I'm still waiting for your leaf spy report BoatMad !!!! no more excuses !

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, especially when half my 140 odd km commute is free !

If I had 40 Kwh then the work charge point would meet 100% of my commute !

I'm still waiting for your leaf spy report BoatMad !!!! no more excuses !

soon soon, just need to get the car to stay in one place for a few minutes

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

soon soon, just need to get the car to stay in one place for a few minutes

Well instead of posting here get leaf spying !

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Well instead of posting here get leaf spying !

slave driver, not going out it that tonight , no sir , watching netflix instead , with a toasty big fire roaring

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

slave driver, not going out it that tonight , no sir , watching netflix instead , with a toasty big fire roaring

a fire in this day and age ? shame on you for emitting all those pollutants, I do hope it's not smokey coal ! :pac:

Firblog

cros13 wrote: »

€99 for the annual inspection

Is this mandatory?

Firblog

Firblog wrote: »

Is this mandatory?

For warranty purposes then yes. Otherwise, not really, depends on whether having the car get inspected after a years driving is worth it to you or not.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

a fire in this day and age ? shame on you for emitting all those pollutants, I do hope it's not smokey coal ! :pac:

year old aged beech , i never burn coal, I cut and split my own

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

year old aged beech , i never burn coal, I cut and split my own

Good man, burn the trees instead, god knows we have far too few lol only joking I'm assuming those trees fell to their death due to natural causes.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Good man, burn the trees instead, god knows we have far too few lol only joking I'm assuming those trees fell to their death due to natural causes.

disease mostly , the centre of them are all hollowed out because of it . ( some of course simply fell down in a farmers field due to unknown reasons , as is common in ireland )

Actually normally I split fast grown commercial softwood , an entirely renewable resource, just this year I have access to the beech

n97 mini

Casati wrote: »

If ESB start charging as planned then most EV's owners ownership cost will increase dramatically - something to think about too

The UK is currently on a 6 quid per half hour of charging model at the public CPs, and it looks like the govt is stepping in to put an end to that.

If I had to put money on it I would say it's more likely pricing will be per kw/h here, ideally tied into your domestic bill (though I wouldn't hold my breath on the latter).

So while the cost will increase (from currently zero) it's more likely it will be in line with the actual cost of electricity, which should make it still an order of magnitude cheaper than diesel or petrol.

Firblog

Deleted User wrote: »

For warranty purposes then yes. Otherwise, not really, depends on whether having the car get inspected after a years driving is worth it to you or not.

Cheers for that, Thought that services were every 30,000km, I've had mine just over a year now, 20,000KM so i'll have to get it checked.

Firblog

Firblog wrote: »

Cheers for that, Thought that services were every 30,000km, I've had mine just over a year now, 20,000KM so i'll have to get it checked.

Service is one year or 30,000 kms, whichever comes first.

650Ginge

650Ginge wrote: »

Or a £700 door handle for a two year old 50k Model S.

As yet we don't know what a leaf will cost long term. They still have bearings and bushings, shocks etc.....there will be bills if you have it long enough.

Not me I am way too tight for that. There is a guy called James Cooke blogs about his Tesla.

650Ginge

So.....

I had a look at the Ioniq today, well it is a Hyundai, and it still has the horrible interior that all Hynundai have.....just a big black plastic dash, improves a lot with it is powered up, which is the way you will be looking at it most of the time.

Anyway thats my Hyundai hang up out of the way....also the boot isn't big enough for my doggies either.

So I went on the Nissan site to see how much a leaf would be on PCP. As I personally would only want to lease one and maybe walk away.

€680pm over three years.....yikes.....turns out they GMFV is €5075 and €5000 deposit . So it would cost approx €8160 a year in repayments and if you divide out the deposit too, €998 a month, or €11986 a year for three years. Nearly €36k in total....and you still owe them the €5075 if you don't walk away.

How can anyone make the maths on these work? I want one but they have to be some way affordable. Thats about 171428 miles in fuel in my current car :-).

cros13

650Ginge wrote: »

Not me I am way too tight for that. There is a guy called James Cooke blogs about his Tesla.

I saw that.... in fairness to Tesla they redesigned the door handle mechanism completely. And their current policy is to replace all the door handles when they do one.

So I strongly suspect that £700 will end up with them replacing everything down to the motors driving every door handle and a LOT of labor.

isnottheword

650Ginge wrote: »

So.....

I had a look at the Ioniq today, well it is a Hyundai, and it still has the horrible interior that all Hynundai have.....just a big black plastic dash...
Anyway thats my Hyundai hang up out of the way....also the boot isn't big enough for my doggies either.

Ok, so taking a positive slant on it, you looked at it and it's not for you - process of elimination. :-)

650Ginge wrote: »

So I went on the Nissan site to see how much a leaf would be on PCP. As I personally would only want to lease one and maybe walk away.

Can I ask what's the motivation here? i.e. is it that you like to and tend to change your cars regularly OR you have a fear of depreciation later OR have a fear that it will lose range and no longer be fit for your purposes OR you don't have/or want to spend the capital outlay right now...OR some other reason?
Not gettin' tricky with you - but everyone has their own motivations - not one size fits all - so trying to understand what it is you need.

650Ginge wrote: »

€680pm over three years.....yikes.....turns out they GMFV is €5075 and €5000 deposit . So it would cost approx €8160 a year in repayments and if you divide out the deposit too, €998 a month, or €11986 a year for three years. Nearly €36k in total....and you still owe them the €5075 if you don't walk away.
How can anyone make the maths on these work?

Ok, I'll start by saying that I can't make those maths work. However, very quickly, I want to follow that up that both my mindset and my personal circumstances are not dispositioned toward A. buying brand new and B. buying with PCP (or any other form of finance). I also want to clarify that I accept that PCP (and other car financing products) suit others, buying new suits some, etc. That's already been debated on here with valued contributors to this board - so I don't want to instigate a repeat of the same discussion!

So...

The figures don't work for you BUT you go on to say...

650Ginge wrote: »

I want one but they have to be some way affordable.

Which begs the question, what exactly is your motivation in buying a Nissan Leaf? How badly do you want one and for what reason? For example, is your motivation environmental? Is your motivation to save $? Is your motivation to be the first of your peers with an EV?

We all have to compromise - if we didn't, we'd all be driving Teslas (if we were keen on EV) or some top of the range ICE. I do agree (and others will disagree with me (and a lot of this is circumstantial - so there's no right or wrong answer as such) that the maths don't add up. However, from my personal point of view, I'd be hard pushed to agree that any PCP deal on EV or ICE adds up for me.

What I can tell you is that you can drive an affordable Leaf. My motivation was/is cost-saving first (keen on new tech 2nd and environmental a distant third). I achieved this by buying a 2 year old Leaf in the UK - that most likely had come off a PCP deal - and had shed the vast majority of depreciation at that stage.

I'm saving €160/month on fuel - and if I manage to complete a full year (if charging remains free), I'll have saved approx. €2600 (I'm including my average engine-related servicing in that figure) from an initial outlay of €9300 (that includes all costs involved in purchasing i.e. flight, sales price, ferry, etc.).

I just did a 400 kilometer road trip that saved me €35 on fuel (based on my previous diesel ICE - which ran on fumes). Granted the logistics of that were a bit tricky and cost some time. If you're in the top 10 professions and earn big wonga, then you couldn't justify the hassle of this. However, I don't - so I can (and I don't do trips like that very often - although I do get maximum value out of the Leaf via an 80 mile roundtrip commute - mon. - fri.).

That's my rationale for buying into an EV. You need to decide what's most important to you - what you will compromise on, what you will not, etc.

I hope that helps you somewhat in making your decision. Good luck to you in whatever conclusion you come to.

650Ginge

650Ginge wrote: »

So.....

I had a look at the Ioniq today, well it is a Hyundai, and it still has the horrible interior that all Hynundai have.....just a big black plastic dash, improves a lot with it is powered up, which is the way you will be looking at it most of the time.

Anyway thats my Hyundai hang up out of the way....also the boot isn't big enough for my doggies either.

So I went on the Nissan site to see how much a leaf would be on PCP. As I personally would only want to lease one and maybe walk away.

€680pm over three years.....yikes.....turns out they GMFV is €5075 and €5000 deposit . So it would cost approx €8160 a year in repayments and if you divide out the deposit too, €998 a month, or €11986 a year for three years. Nearly €36k in total....and you still owe them the €5075 if you don't walk away.

How can anyone make the maths on these work? I want one but they have to be some way affordable. Thats about 171428 miles in fuel in my current car :-).

Those numbers do not add up.

On the finance calculator ( clicking on PCP) on the Nissan site I put 5 K deposit, 36 months and the monthly is 541 Euro's, 4% interest. 30,000 Kms per year, SVE Spec , metallic paint, 24 Kwh.

I am paying 458 PM with 5 K deposit and 7.5%. 30,000 kms per year.

It looks like the GFMV is way too low, I can not see any leaf worth as low as 5K in 3 years and 90,000 odd kms. So the + side of this is , there could be a lot more deposit for the next car after 3 years.

650Ginge

Thanks for the long reply, mine has turned out just as long sorry.

So my motivation is I don't like diesel cars. I have had a lot of them, NI was much earlier adopter of diesel and than the south and we had diesel 305 Estates when I was a kid.

I had a Prius for 4 years. I got used to the lack of noise at start up, I loved the reliability and I loved replacing the old game of how fast can I go with how economically can I drive. That driving style has stuck and I am older too.

I sold the Prius (a car I owned for long than any other of my 39 cars,nearly all cheap rubbish, R5 turbo excepted) because we also had a motorhome. I wanted to give caravanning a try, you can't tow with a Prius, well seems that you can now, so bought a stop gap Mondeo and then a 520d F11 but I hated it caravanning. So the caravan is gone and I now no longer tow.

But every time I start that 520d the noise is horrible. I rarely do trips less than 15miles but it takes that long for it to get warmed up. But usually I rarely do less than 25miles, once a month maybe 200mile round trip, I don't mind if I need to charge at the destination or along the route. It is a nice car I just don't like diesel anymore.

I like the idea I can just charge and home (most of the time).

I like the idea of the quietness.

I hope my wife with drive it, she will not drive the 520d, too big.

I have two dogs, red setters, they travel in the car a lot.

I have only had one new car, it was company Octavia back in 2000-2002. I handed it back with 120k miles and was told he was the cleanest car they every got back. So whilst I have never been a new car buyer I am sick of buying secondhand cars and then taking months to get them right. If I get it new I can just keep it that way.

I would also want to lease rather than buy an electric so that I could just walk away in 3 years when the tech is old. The opposite the that though is there must be some seriously cheap secondhand leafs out there now. I can't see how they can make more than €5k. I don't need to PCP or think normally PCP is the way to go.

I also like the idea that the car will use less fuel but I am very aware that most the damage a car does to the environment is in production. So no point trying to make out it is for environmental reasons.

I am not interested in impressing peers, the car is for me because I want it. I had to endure the Prius jokes for 4 years. I just don't care.

650Ginge

Deleted User wrote: »

Those numbers do not add up.

On the finance calculator ( clicking on PCP) on the Nissan site I put 5 K deposit, 36 months and the monthly is 541 Euro's, 4% interest. 30,000 Kms per year, SVE Spec , metallic paint, 24 Kwh.

I am paying 458 PM with 5 K deposit and 7.5%. 30,000 kms per year.

It looks like the GFMV is way too low, I can not see any leaf worth as low as 5K in 3 years and 90,000 odd kms. So the + side of this is , there could be a lot more deposit for the next car after 3 years.

I went with SVE with 30kw and 6.6kw charger total price was €31k something.

You could well be right that it would make a cheap secondhand car to myself at that point.