Cyclists have begun to outnumber cars in parts of Dublin city

boardbeer

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/cyclists-have-begun-to-outnumber-cars-in-parts-of-dublin-city/

tomasrojo

This must be suppressed ...

De Bhál

Mild weather must be helping

CramCycle

I'd love to see more of the stats but there is one thing that is more important than the numbers of one mode of transport than the others. I see this knowing that i do not agree with most posters, but using boards as a microcosm of cyclists in Dublin, the quays would be one of the most dangerous (in regards comfort levels) places to cycle in Dublin. I don't necessarily agree but I am outnumbered.

This is largely perceived (not by me) as a hugely dangerous place to cycle, this does not appear to have alleviated in recent times going by posts here, but yet, one of the perceived riskiest places in Dublin to cycle is seeing a boom that is almost unbelievable.

This has to be one of the most positive news stories in recent times regarding cycling in Dublin.

arybvtcw0eolkf

De Bhál wrote: »

Mild weather must be helping

This change had taken place in the period since 2013-2014 when the council first began to properly develop plans for the two-way segregated cycle lane down the quays.

Seems to be going on before our current spell of mild weather.

Welcome news.

CramCycle

Grayson Gorgeous Camper wrote: »

Seems to be going on before our current spell of mild weather.

Welcome news.

My mother in law, who is very against me cycling, took her first drive in rush hour traffic yesterday. She rang to share her experience later in the day. She could not understand how we done it. I just asked her, "do you understand why I cycle now?", she said I do. Closest I will ever get to her being positive about me cycling.

tomasrojo

CramCycle wrote: »

This is largely perceived (not by me) as a hugely dangerous place to cycle, this does not appear to have alleviated in recent times going by posts here, but yet, one of the perceived riskiest places in Dublin to cycle is seeing a boom that is almost unbelievable.

If they're talking about Arran Quay, I also find that stretch fine. It's the south quays after the civic offices I try to avoid.

doozerie

tomasrojo wrote: »

If they're talking about Arran Quay, I also find that stretch fine. It's the south quays after the civic offices I try to avoid.

I use the north quays from Ormond Quay Upper every morning and find it perfectly fine too. Ironically I usually have more issues with people on bikes, and the odd suicidal pedestrian, doing stupid things than I have with motorists.

I use the south quays rarely and never like using them when I do. There are too many pinch points, which is not such a big deal in itself, but perhaps because it's usually home time when I do use them, the levels of patience and consideration seem dangerously low and tempers dangerously short, so not a happy mix.

It's the usual thing, all roads would be perfectly fine and safe if it wasn't for the hoors that use them. :pac:

CramCycle

I find no more issue with the quays, north or south, than any other road in Dublin, it just might look more noticeable as traffic is heavier closer to the center.

veetwin

Cyclist and motorist here. Thankfully I don't need to go into Dublin City centre during rush hour very often but I did this evening about 6pm. I was driving a Transit with its limited rear visibility. I was genuinely shocked and scared at some of the cyclists behaviour. A bus turning left from Dame St onto George's St stopped for at least 30 seconds while a dozen cyclists went up the inside as he was indicating to turn left. (He had a green light) Had he not stopped someone would have come to a bad end.

Similar reckless behaviour continued on George's St with cyclists overtaking on both the near side and offside. It's a miracle more cyclists aren't mangled on a daily basis.

Chuchote

veetwin wrote: »

Cyclist and motorist here. Thankfully I don't need to go into Dublin City centre during rush hour very often but I did this evening about 6pm. I was driving a Transit with its limited rear visibility. I was genuinely shocked and scared at some of the cyclists behaviour. A bus turning left from Dame St onto George's St stopped for at least 30 seconds while a dozen cyclists went up the inside as he was indicating to turn left. (He had a green light) Had he not stopped someone would have come to a bad end.

Similar reckless behaviour continued on George's St with cyclists overtaking on both the near side and offside. It's a miracle more cyclists aren't mangled on a daily basis.

Yeah, there's some loopers out there.

Leroy42

veetwin wrote: »

A bus turning left from Dame St onto George's St stopped for at least 30 seconds while a dozen cyclists went up the inside as he was indicating to turn left. (He had a green light) Had he not stopped someone would have come to a bad end.

I use that junction everyday and part of the problem is the junction itself. Filter left green light but busses can't make the turn due to traffic on Dame St.

Impatient cyclists then go past the bus to make the turn. Would be safer for all concerned to just remove the filter. That in no way tries to negate the need for the cyclist to use self awareness, but the way the junction is designed seems to ignore this pretty universal fact

ted1

CramCycle wrote: »

I find no more issue with the quays, north or south, than any other road in Dublin, it just might look more noticeable as traffic is heavier closer to the center.

I seldom use the quays but when I do I feel it's like running the gauntlet. To many busses and bus stops.

Annie get your Run

I use both North and South Quays from O'Connell St to the Phoenix Park, they are the busiest part of my commute but not necessarily the most dangerous (big roundabouts in Clonsilla can be more so), South quays are far worse, for everyone I'd imagine. The bus lanes as far as Wellington Quay are filled with parked buses and what not forcing moving buses and cyclists out into the next lane. There are far higher instances of cars with flashing lights on those Quays too for some reason and I feel traffic turning left from side roads have poorer visibility V the North Quays. The worst part of those IMO seems to be from Ormond Quay onward, the buses trying to get across two lanes of traffic to turn over O'Connell Bridge is a nightmare. Roll on this new 2 way cycle path! I hope they make it nice & wide though so we can overtake each other safely!

the.red.baron

This shows what a car park the quays are. If the number of 1100 are correct, it's a pretty bad indictment pf traffic management that it can handle less cars now that in 2014.

You'd want to be barking mad to contemplate driving that at rush hour.

tomasrojo

veetwin wrote: »

I was genuinely shocked and scared at some of the cyclists behaviour. A bus turning left from Dame St onto George's St stopped for at least 30 seconds while a dozen cyclists went up the inside as he was indicating to turn left. (He had a green light) Had he not stopped someone would have come to a bad end.

The problem I have is that on routes with a lot of cyclists drivers often stop to let cyclists pass on the inside, especially when there's a cycle track. Once the drivers have stopped, it's hard to encourage them to complete the turn (and doing so can cause problems for a cyclist coming up behind you), and it's easier just to pass on the inside, keeping wary in case they suddenly change their mind, or in case you've misinterpreted what they're doing.


In general, I think passing on the inside at a junction is a very bad idea in principle, but I still find I have to do it in certain scenarios.

tomasrojo

Weepsie wrote: »

Hands up anyone here who passes dozens upon dozens of cars each and every day carrying no passengers other than the driver.

80+% of vehicles are single-occupancy, I'd say.

amcalester

Weepsie wrote: »

No bad thing that the quays are a car park. It should show people that there are far quicker ways of getting in and out of the city centre or crossing from one side to t'other.

Someone on broadsheet commented that the bikes only have 1 person, cars carry more.

Hands up anyone here who passes dozens upon dozens of cars each and every day carrying no passengers other than the driver.

Not to mention that they take up more space on the road as well.

boardbeer

I've not been cycling into the city centre for a while, but this morning I had to be at a meeting in town, and waiting for colleagues sitting outside the Cafe2Go on Mespil rd., I was amazed at the sheer volume of bikes passing - it was like the Netherlands or someplace, and this, probably the coldest week of the year. The times, they are a chainging.

CramCycle

boardbeer wrote: »

I've not been cycling into the city centre for a while, but this morning I had to be at a meeting in town, and waiting for colleagues sitting outside the Cafe2Go on Mespil rd., I was amazed at the sheer volume of bikes passing - it was like the Netherlands or someplace, and this, probably the coldest week of the year. The times, they are a chainging.

Gone are the good auld days were your cycles would only be threatened by cars not looking out for you. Now you have to queue up at lights behind other cyclists, never thought I would see the day, I miss it when there less people.

Saipanne

veetwin wrote: »

Cyclist and motorist here. Thankfully I don't need to go into Dublin City centre during rush hour very often but I did this evening about 6pm. I was driving a Transit with its limited rear visibility. I was genuinely shocked and scared at some of the cyclists behaviour. A bus turning left from Dame St onto George's St stopped for at least 30 seconds while a dozen cyclists went up the inside as he was indicating to turn left. (He had a green light) Had he not stopped someone would have come to a bad end.

Similar reckless behaviour continued on George's St with cyclists overtaking on both the near side and offside. It's a miracle more cyclists aren't mangled on a daily basis.

Between that and phone obsessed pedestrians, I'm amazed people aren't killed daily.

Doctor Bob

tomasrojo wrote: »

80+% of vehicles are single-occupancy, I'd say.

I think the vehicle occupancy rate in Dublin is about 1.1, so that's 11 people for every ten cars, or 9 single-occupancy cars and one two-person car in every ten.

Spatially, to carry 11 people, that works out at ~96 sq.m. for cars (4.8m*2.0m) and ~16.5 sq.m. for bikes (2.0m*0.75m); a ratio of about 6:1.

tomasrojo

So even if every car were carrying at high capacity (four or five passengers), it still wouldn't be as space-efficient as bicycle traffic?

peneau

Wait for it, the increase will bring its own problems within
the cycling community already experiencing this, with some
seemingly using their daily commute as part of their training
routine and overtaking fellow cyclists at fairly impressive clips,
closer than cars do…..Jaysus human nature !!

CramCycle

tomasrojo wrote: »

So even if every car were carrying at high capacity (four or five passengers), it still wouldn't be as space-efficient as bicycle traffic?

I know there are pictures where they show x amount of bicycles in the space of a car, but i don't agree with that. Once you count in safe passing distance and not half wheeling people. A full car or one with at least 4 people is about as space concious as as 4 bicycles in moving traffic. In rush hour traffic that falls apart as clearly more cyclists can commute closer together at thet slower speed.

peneau wrote: »

Wait for it, the increase will bring its own problems within
the cycling community already experiencing this, with some
seemingly using their daily commute as part of their training
routine and overtaking fellow cyclists at fairly impressive clips,
closer than cars do…..Jaysus human nature !!

I often do but when there are a large number of cyclists, that stops, no different than a car joining heavy traffic. You go at the speed that is safe to do so and travel in an appropriately safe manner.

07Lapierre

peneau wrote: »

Wait for it, the increase will bring its own problems within
the cycling community already experiencing this, with some
seemingly using their daily commute as part of their training
routine and overtaking fellow cyclists at fairly impressive clips,
closer than cars do…..Jaysus human nature !!

There's a big difference between a close pass by a car and a close pass by another cyclist! One might give you a fright...the other might kill you!

Chuchote

600 cyclists = a 3km tailback of cars.

Moflojo

peneau wrote: »

Wait for it, the increase will bring its own problems within
the cycling community already experiencing this, with some
seemingly using their daily commute as part of their training
routine and overtaking fellow cyclists at fairly impressive clips,
closer than cars do…..Jaysus human nature !!

There's going to be a bedding-in period where everyone gets used to this new cycling culture but I've already started to notice improved behaviour in the past year, especially around traffic lights. In my experience the majority of cyclists are courteous to others and observant of traffic laws. The ones who aren't appear to be behaving out of ignorance or arrogance, with only the former being understandable and forgivable.

Moflojo

07Lapierre wrote: »

There's a big difference between a close pass by a car and a close pass by another cyclist! One might give you a fright...the other might kill you!

That's not really a valid excuse for passing another cyclist too closely though. If cyclists don't respect fellow cyclists then how can we expect other road users to have respect for us?

07Lapierre

Moflojo wrote: »

That's not really a valid excuse for passing another cyclist too closely though. If cyclists don't respect fellow cyclists then how can we expect other road users to have respect for us?

Agree...i wasn't offering an excuse for it. Some people are just numpty's!

km991148

Leroy42 wrote: »

Would be safer for all concerned to just remove the filter. That in no way tries to negate the need for the cyclist to use self awareness, but the way the junction is designed seems to ignore this pretty universal fact

ye - or even move the Georges St Stop line back about 1/2 a bus length.

Chuchote

There's craziness all around. Best thing the council could do - well, second-best after proper cycling infrastructure - would be a load of billboards saying "Sure what's your hurry?"

buffalo

km991148 wrote: »

ye - or even move the Georges St Stop line back about 1/2 a bus length.

It is set back from the junction, but when traffic is flowing it doesn't make a difference.

Tombo2001

veetwin wrote: »

Cyclist and motorist here. Thankfully I don't need to go into Dublin City centre during rush hour very often but I did this evening about 6pm. I was driving a Transit with its limited rear visibility. I was genuinely shocked and scared at some of the cyclists behaviour. A bus turning left from Dame St onto George's St stopped for at least 30 seconds while a dozen cyclists went up the inside as he was indicating to turn left. (He had a green light) Had he not stopped someone would have come to a bad end.

Similar reckless behaviour continued on George's St with cyclists overtaking on both the near side and offside. It's a miracle more cyclists aren't mangled on a daily basis.

As a cyclist I'd be quite happy to tell you some of the appalling things I saw Van Drivers do in the city centre this morning......weaving in and out of lanes, turning left forcing cyclists to pull up, not indicating, driving while texting....I would have been genuinely shocked and scared. Except I wasn't because I see it every day.

Its a miracle more cyclists aren't mangled in a daily basis.

mcgratheoin

CramCycle wrote: »

I know there are pictures where they show x amount of bicycles in the space of a car, but i don't agree with that. Once you count in safe passing distance and not half wheeling people. A full car or one with at least 4 people is about as space concious as as 4 bicycles in moving traffic.

Remember that the space a car takes up consists of the car plus a safe distance between it and other cars. I'd say over 4 bikes is a realistic figure

Chuchote

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Remember that the space a car takes up consists of the car plus a safe distance between it and other cars. I'd say over 4 bikes is a realistic figure

Remember that if you add the fourth dimension (time) into the equation, you can add the space on the road a car takes up when it's parked for eight hours…

Tombo2001

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Remember that the space a car takes up consists of the car plus a safe distance between it and other cars. I'd say over 4 bikes is a realistic figure

Look at the size of the peloton in the tour de france.....200 odd cyclists in a space you could fit maybe five cars in moving traffic.

NiallBoo

peneau wrote: »

Wait for it, the increase will bring its own problems within
the cycling community already experiencing this, with some
seemingly using their daily commute as part of their training
routine and overtaking fellow cyclists at fairly impressive clips,
closer than cars do…..Jaysus human nature !!

Clipless all the way for commuting. You gotta get everything from of those mad watts you're putting out as you're sailing past those plebs on their Dublin trikes.
- you can tell they don't even shave their legs.

Wait...what was your point again? Think I missed something.

CramCycle

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Remember that the space a car takes up consists of the car plus a safe distance between it and other cars. I'd say over 4 bikes is a realistic figure

100% correct. Obviously not got my thinking cap on today.

veetwin

Tombo2001 wrote: »

As a cyclist I'd be quite happy to tell you some of the appalling things I saw Van Drivers do in the city centre this morning......weaving in and out of lanes, turning left forcing cyclists to pull up, not indicating, driving while texting....I would have been genuinely shocked and scared. Except I wasn't because I see it every day.

Its a miracle more cyclists aren't mangled in a daily basis.

Absolutely agree with everything you say. However the van driver can fcuk up behind the wheel all day and get away with it. A cyclist only needs to fcuk once to get dead.

km991148

buffalo wrote: »

It is set back from the junction, but when traffic is flowing it doesn't make a difference.

I thought the filter only came on when the traffic was completely stopped on G st. - but that would make no sense.

Either way needs fixed! Get rid of Riks burgers? Open it right up?

endagibson

Chuchote wrote: »

Remember that if you add the fourth dimension (time) into the equation, you can add the space on the road a car takes up when it's parked for eight hours…

I'm not that I've ever seen figures on that though.

Searching for this now, but from memory a standard road lane processes a maximum of 2,200 cars per hour, or a maximum of 14,000 bicycles per hour.

Bicycles are a much more efficient use of space. Even if every single car carried 5 passengers, bicycles would still be more efficient.

magicbastarder

in a way, i don't think the roads are as much the limiting factor as they used to be - it's secure bike parking and facilties for cyclists which seems to be the deciding factor for people i know who cycle to work.

endagibson

Taken from here. Not the graph that I remember, but it'll do for now. Shows how inefficient on-street parking is.





Taken from here. The numbers are different compared to those above. I'm sure if both pages are read, the reason will be become clear.





This last one just seemed to be relevant to what Chuchote brought up about parking. Taken from here.

eeguy

endagibson wrote: »

Taken from here. The numbers are different compared to those above. I'm sure if both pages are read, the reason will be become clear.

I don't think rail in Mumbai and Hong Kong is representative of the rest of the world

It's great news though. With a few months of proper etiquette enforcement by the Gardai and a few more cycleways, Dublin would be a fantastic cycling city.

magicbastarder

OT, but i'd be interested to know how grade separated light rail can run at the claimed capacity; must be very large trams.

using the existing luas trams with a capacity of 358, that's one tram every 40s.

even a bike lane having a capacity of 5200 per hour is 1.4 cyclists per second. so a two minute delay at a junction would result in a bike jam of nearly 200 cyclists.

eeguy

magicbastarder wrote: »

even a bike lane having a capacity of 5200 per hour is 1.4 cyclists per second. so a two minute delay at a junction would result in a bike jam of nearly 200 cyclists.

I suppose it's based on the max number of cyclists passing a fixed point travelling quickly wheel to wheel. A mathematical calculation rather than a real world observation.

By the same metric a 2 min delay at the lights is nearly 50 cars.

endagibson

magicbastarder wrote: »

a two minute delay at a junction would result in a bike jam of nearly 200 cyclists.

Take a look at this queue of bicycles at a London junction earlier in the week.

magicbastarder

to be fair, the luas running every three minutes gives a capacity of just over 7,000 passengers per hour, which is reasonably close to the surface light rail claim above.

De Bhál

endagibson wrote: »

Take a look at this queue of bicycles at a London junction earlier in the week.

Why isn't there people going up the outside to get to top of the queue?? They haven't a clue. Amateurs. Way too civilised over there.

CramCycle

De Bhál wrote: »

Why isn't there people going up the outside to get to top of the queue. They haven't a clue. Amateurs. Way too civilised over there.

https://theoldvillage.wordpress.com/2004/01/28/douglas-adams-shares-a-true-story/