cattle dealers- see Mod note in post #126

kerry cow

What kind of a margin do cattle dealers make on their purchases .
If I sell a cow in the yard for factory be it a boner or fat .
Do they flip then , feed them or kill them in general .
If they kill them then would I be better off doing it myself .
I had a experience with 6 cows I sold a guy .After 2 weeks he still hadn't collected and so I headed off to the market .850 euro better off that evening .Is this standard margin for these guys .i wouldn't have know otherwise .was offered 300 euro for a bone cow but took the chance last week and killed her and netted 372 and the buyer was at his limit at 300 and said he was doing me a favour .
If I went to mart today and bought say 4 fat cows and head to the factory tomorrow or tomorrow week what type of profit should I expect in general .?
I know they have to make a profit but to me maybe 50 euro each would be fair .

Mad4CHX

kerry cow wrote: »

What kind of a margin do cattle dealers make on their purchases .
If I sell a cow in the yard for factory be it a boner or fat .
Do they flip then , feed them or kill them in general .
If they kill them then would I be better off doing it myself .
I had a experience with 6 cows I sold a guy .After 2 weeks he still hadn't collected and so I headed off to the market .850 euro better off that evening .Is this standard margin for these guys .i wouldn't have know otherwise .was offered 300 euro for a bone cow but took the chance last week and killed her and netted 372 and the buyer was at his limit at 300 and said he was doing me a favour .
If I went to mart today and bought say 4 fat cows and head to the factory tomorrow or tomorrow week what type of profit should I expect in general .?
I know they have to make a profit but to me maybe 50 euro each would be fair .

Hard to know but they need to make a living and take risks buying stock. Lads here come down on them fairly hard but I always use them. I work full time so don't have the time to hang around a mart all day. I tell a dealer what I want and my price range and then he gets his cut. Bloody movements thing is a disaster, another way to suppress the system in favour of the factories.

Bass Reeves

I suspect that if he was going to make 150/ cow he would have had them gone that evening. Maybe something changed in the two weeks. There is a higher risk with cows and insurance and often factory's do not insure canners going up the line. Give him 10 euro haulage and I presume that the 372 is the net you were paid he 62 euro to covers his risk of a cow being rejected and his time. He will not buy in every yard just like an agent. Would 1 in 50 canners be rejected I am not sure but that is another 6-10/ head. For one cow he was getting on you not going to the mart lots of farmers are wary of factory's so he !Ight have boosted his margin.

Matt's are a law unto themselves. There can be agro on the day between dealers and you may have struck it lucky. 150 euro gross/ cow extra compared to mart prices either you are bad to negotiate and did not know the value or prices changed substantially in two weeks. 150/ head of a price difference between mart and yard seems substantially.

charolais0153

They're all the same bunch. They leave cows to each other andake them dear on someone gat wants to buy

jack o shea

Worse than tinkers.......

kerry cow

I always have trusted them in the past for the reason that I want a fair price and know he has to make a few bob too but those two examples have upset me alot and now feel like I have been screwed for far too long .
Agreed I have has bones skipped before .now that's a loss .and funny thing is these dealer can get them through the factory.

jack o shea

Kerry cow, these lads are pure scum, you would be better off trying any other options than these pikeys.

greysides

jack o shea wrote: »

Kerry cow, these lads are pure scum, you would be better off trying any other options than these pikeys.

Mod:
Jack, that's a fair wide brush stroke! You need to moderate your language!

whelan2

Like in all businesses there's good and bad, you learn fairly quick who to avoid. If you need cash quick sometimes they can be a god send

cute geoge

How bad would a cow need to be rejected in the factory ,is it the vets that decide if a cow will be rejected .
Compared to long ago jobbers don't seem to have much sway nowadays .i often heard about jobbers rocking up to land auctions years ago and after outbidding everyone pull out a couple of rolls of notes and pay on the spot for farms!!!!1
Marts would be definitely be poorer places without them ,in fact i don't think marts would function without them .guaranteed week in week out they will be stood around the ring come rain ,snow or sun

whelan2

cute geoge wrote: »

How bad would a cow need to be rejected in the factory ,is it the vets that decide if a cow will be rejected .
Compared to long ago jobbers don't seem to have much sway nowadays .i often heard about jobbers rocking up to land auctions years ago and after outbidding everyone pull out a couple of rolls of notes and pay on the spot for farms!!!!1
Marts would be definitely be poorer places without them ,in fact i don't think marts would function without them .guaranteed week in week out they will be stood around the ring come rain ,snow or sun

Alot depends what vet is in the factory. Had one cow skipped ever. I got sent the knackery docket from them

jack o shea

I always try my best when selling in mart to see if these boys are bidding, I took home cattle once because I knew it was a dealer with the final bid, was a good price and all ha......

whelan2

jack o shea wrote: »

I always try my best when selling in mart to see if these boys are bidding, I took home cattle once because I knew it was a dealer with the final bid, was a good price and all ha......

I could never understand bringing cattle out to the mart and bringing them home, unless you are getting a desperate price. Surely they are being brought out to be sold?

jack o shea

Oh for sure whelan, and I'm nearly always highly stocked, but I just couldn't bear the thoughts of my cattle been handled by 5hese lads, would they even feed them properly?

duffysfarm

You thought him a lesson alright.....

jack o shea wrote: »

I always try my best when selling in mart to see if these boys are bidding, I took home cattle once because I knew it was a dealer with the final bid, was a good price and all ha......

jack o shea

Money isn't everything duffy

kerry cow

I suppose the dealers get better cent per kg than joe soap by larry .thing that is worrying alright is you get a higher price if more than the lads around the ring are bidding .
I heard once that they have a system at the start of the sale .The first fat cow is yours , the boner is mine , the feeder is his .Then that covers the expenses for the day .

Bass Reeves

jack o shea wrote: »

Money isn't everything duffy

A farmers best friend if not his only one is his pocket. Business is exactly that business. If he was giving you a good price I imagine the next day she did not make as much. IMO dealer's made good money years ago margins are too tight now. If you are not making money you reduce stocking levels to reduce losses which lads are doing so dealer's that rtry for too high a margin are going out of business very fast.

There is only a thin line between a dealer and a finisher. Most large finisher's are around the ring every day as well. Little difference between them as they will both turn you over. I am onlyin the game small time but for me to make a profit some one else has to make a loss.Yes there isba few making serious money that are both agents and are tangling as well but there is only a few that are in that league.. I think I will stay the way I am.

kerry cow

I think the mart or factory is a great ease as I could not deal with olden times of street trading and all the lark .can you imagine having to go through all that . Horse trading omg

Bass Reeves

kerry cow wrote: »

I suppose the dealers get better cent per kg than joe soap by larry .thing that is worrying alright is you get a higher price if more than the lads around the ring are bidding .
I heard once that they have a system at the start of the sale .The first fat cow is yours , the boner is mine , the feeder is his .Then that covers the expenses for the day .

TBH margins are too tight. Lads that lose money are reducing stocking levels and drawing payments. Taking to a lad with 150 acres sold heavy Friesian's a month ago 36-48 month no meal very limited silage, he works as well. He was locked up by Board Bia QA for nearly 12 month. Bought mixed stores for 600ish euro beroreChristmass off DD. HEx, FR, AA, JEx LMx and a BB and SIM. Plainer cattle were heavier. His attitude now whenever they are hitting 1300+ he is going to send that bunch to the factory. F@@k the AA and the HE scheme if he gets it he gets it. Keep costs down and try to turn over 40ish cattle a year no shed very little nuts and limited silage. No capital tied up in cattle no dealer and transportation costs he expects to make 14-18k with his SFP with little time and no capital tied up. Small money for land involved but it is a bit mixed with some rushy land.

patsy_mccabe

These dealers know the exact value of every animal that goes through the ring. They bid on everything but drop out of most. They're terrible feckers for starting cattle too low. That's what annoys me most with them.

kk.man

kerry cow wrote: »

I suppose the dealers get better cent per kg than joe soap by larry .thing that is worrying alright is you get a higher price if more than the lads around the ring are bidding .
I heard once that they have a system at the start of the sale .The first fat cow is yours , the boner is mine , the feeder is his .Then that covers the expenses for the day .

An agent friend of mine confirmed that system exists wholesale and if one of them breaks ranks he is out in the cold. That's life thats their business I suppose.

kerry cow

You also have to blame the auctioneers for going so low .take a cow tries to start her at 600 before you know it you are at 400 and along haul up to sell at 630 .auctioneers know the value and should pass her by at 500 and move on .They won't be long getting the message. They really pull the mick .

kk.man

kerry cow wrote: »

You also have to blame the auctioneers for going so low .take a cow tries to start her at 600 before you know it you are at 400 and along haul up to sell at 630 .auctioneers know the value and should pass her by at 500 and move on .They won't be long getting the message. They really pull the mick .

I agree but the auctioneer must play ball too...I saw a northern buyer arrive in mart one day and he was prepared to pay more for stock. All the dealers walked out and left the northern buyer on his own at the ring.

larthehar

I.ve seen them in action down our way, they all work together. They have it split up between them and stick there hand into the ring as the cattle come off the weighbridge to mark them..

The other model is lad buying cattle on order and charging €x/hd for buyin and delivery.. fixed margin, more cattle turned over the better... only lads making money..

boggerman1

Used to work in one of the major marts in tipp for about 15 yrs.the heifer ring in particular used to be such a no mans land trying to beat the dealers.in particular the cull cows,u take this one and i will have the next one.yrs ago i had about 15 cull cows for sale one day.knowing how they would behave i decided to bunch them in a lot of 7 and 8.lets just say it didn't go down too well.the following monday while having my dinner one of the dealers sat with us and started giving out about lads putting big bunch of culls together.when i used to work on the chutes in the morning u would try to encourage lads to put culls together.some would take the advice and put ones the same together while others would look at u as if u were mad.

kerry cow

The problem I see with big bunches is that it excludes a small buyer from completing .
I see a large buyer in North kerry and when the cows are in the ring selling he has his hand in 5 fingers open out and continue to move his hand slightly for long periods of time .he's not biding because when he does buy you wouldn't he know it except hear his name called by auctioneer .what does this all hand in waving mean .its happens alot through out the sale

patsy_mccabe

A lot of these dealers are full of sh1te. Follow them out when they are loading and see how many they buy. I know a lot of big buyers in marts I go to and you wouldn't even know they are buying. Pure gentlemen too and all they are moving is the little finger. Regulars at these marts would know the state of play and just ignore any hand waving in the ring. Saw 2 dealers in my local mart have a shouting match there a while back. Manager had to come out, take the mic from the auctioneer and give out hell to them. So as Bobcharles used to say on here, all these dealers are competing with each other. They are not exactly the best of friends. No secret code or anything

Bass Reeves

kerry cow wrote: »

You also have to blame the auctioneers for going so low .take a cow tries to start her at 600 before you know it you are at 400 and along haul up to sell at 630 .auctioneers know the value and should pass her by at 500 and move on .They won't be long getting the message. They really pull the mick


The problem I see with big bunches is that it excludes a small buyer from completing .
I see a large buyer in North kerry and when the cows are in the ring selling he has his hand in 5 fingers open out and continue to move his hand slightly for long periods of time .he's not biding because when he does buy you wouldn't he know it except hear his name called by auctioneer .what does this all hand in waving mean .its happens alot through out the sale
.

The market value of an animal is what is the final bid. Too many lads selling cattle expect to get the top prices quoted in the paper for cattle sold last week. Dealers set the market because in some mart's they buy 70+% of the cattle. I generally buy in a dealer mart and about 30+% of the cattle I see no margin in. Dealer no longer have the control lads think. 4movements for QA is limiting there ability to bull prices on 20-30% of the cattle. This idea that auctioneers can force cattle to be opened at a certain price is ludicrous. It is not just dealers that open the price it is farmers as well. If I am bidding I usually open earlier than dealers so as to limit the dealers that come in on top of me. I open cattle that I am not interested I. And let the dealers fight it out for them. It pisses of the auctioneer at times.

If the cattle belong to a dealer I will open as low as I can. Last November I was at the mart. A bunch of mixed light 16_18 month old stores came in. They were on the light side at 370kgs and looked hungry. The auctioneer tried to open them at 650 euro and they were dropping and dropping,at 480 I put up 4 fingers indicating a bid of 400 but expecting to be put in at 440. Now the auctioneer know me to an extent so he put the bid in at 400 and they took of I got back in at 430 and then put my hands in my pocket. They went to a bid or too short of 500 auctioneer was splitting the fivers at the time and looking at me. But I was not interested. I bought them after the mart landed in the yard for 475 I think.

On bunching cattle,single cattle favour dealers. No farmer wants to be hauling a single animal home going around the mart looking for a dealer/ trucker near you to drop him off. If you buy a bunch of 2 or 3 early you can add singles to the bunch and make up a par load to reduce transportation costs. That day I bought over20 cattle and haulage worked out at 8-9/ head.

patsy_mccabe

In our local mart years ago, there was one dealer who would open cattle at a decent enough bid. He was on good terms with the auctioneer.;) It cut out unnecessary bidding and kept cattle flowing fast tru the ring.

primary 2

boggerman1 wrote: »

Used to work in one of the major marts in tipp for about 15 yrs.the heifer ring in particular used to be such a no mans land trying to beat the dealers.in particular the cull cows,u take this one and i will have the next one.yrs ago i had about 15 cull cows for sale one day.knowing how they would behave i decided to bunch them in a lot of 7 and 8.lets just say it didn't go down too well.the following monday while having my dinner one of the dealers sat with us and started giving out about lads putting big bunch of culls together.when i used to work on the chutes in the morning u would try to encourage lads to put culls together.some would take the advice and put ones the same together while others would look at u as if u were mad.

yeah the dealers have the heifer ring sowed up in their all right,some difference to the bullock ring where they dont have it all their own way with plenty of farmers and customers there

orm0nd

primary 2 wrote: »

yeah the dealers have the heifer ring sowed up in their all right,some difference to the bullock ring where they dont have it all their own way with plenty of farmers and customers there

I have stopped selling in marts, last time I showed heifers, had a lovely bundle of hex yearlings like peas in a pod. making very poor money in the ring & brought them home.

that night I got a phone call from a farmer, asking what I wanted , asked why he didn't bid in the ring and he said , agh <mod snip

---

> was bidding & I couldn't go on him, the name he mentioned was Larry maith an fear's agent.

I told him to get lost. did'nt know him well enough anyhow.

Sheep breeder

There is two types of mart, the private owned and the company owned. The private owned is run as a business to make money and the company is run as a job and staff going through the motions and don't care.
There one in the south east that the boss sells the cattle, pens the cattle prior to sale start and after loads the cattle and when on top form sells 60 lots an hour and knows when an animal enters the ring the value and who will the animal buy the animal and starts the animal as close to its value as he can and runs the mart on a shoe string staff and one then a half an hour down the road run by a company with paid staff selling and it is in financial trouble for years and selling less than half the stock.

Who2

We can all bad mouth dealers but we all know in the back ground they are needed to soak up the scrap animals the ones with the dodgy leg and to throw a form of a base under animals when farmers aren't buying.

Mad4CHX

Who2 wrote: »

We can all bad mouth dealers but we all know in the back ground they are needed to soak up the scrap animals the ones with the dodgy leg and to throw a form of a base under animals when farmers aren't buying.

100% agree, most of them I know are decent hard working lads, doing a job no one else would do. Standing around a mart ring or the back of a lorry all day in the cold trying to make €30/40 on a few calves. Not sure what planet people are on here but would take you a while to afford a farm from it.

Like the rest of us they are trying to get the best deal they can. Like every occupation you have the bad apples as well. Some of the language such as tinkers and pikeys that is tolerated and left on this thread to describe them tells its own story and is slightly disturbing.

Willfarman

Mad4CHX wrote: »

100% agree, most of them I know are decent hard working lads, doing a job no one else would do. Standing around a mart ring or the back of a lorry all day in the cold trying to make €30/40 on a few calves. Not sure what planet people are on here but would take you a while to afford a farm from it.

Like the rest of us they are trying to get the best deal they can. Like every occupation you have the bad apples as well. Some of the language such as tinkers and pikeys that is tolerated and left on this thread to describe them tells its own story and is slightly disturbing.

Back in the fair days before the mart weighing scales the dealer ruled the roost. They did buy farms with cash around here anyway.. But volatility in the cattle trade saw a few farms sold as well.

Regarding the dealer buying for contract, no problem. it makes sense.
but the dealer jobbing, they are the only parasites that we haven't got a dose for.

Mad4CHX

Willfarman wrote: »

Back in the fair days before the mart weighing scales the dealer ruled the roost. They did buy farms with cash around here anyway.. But volatility in the cattle trade saw a few farms sold as well.

Regarding the dealer buying for contract, no problem. it makes sense.
but the dealer jobbing, they are the only parasites that we haven't got a dose for.

Jaysus you are showing your age Willfarman, thought ya were a young fella! Presume not many jobbers left. I remember when the father used to have 4 or 5 calves on a cow back in the day. We would have a regular jobber or two that would call. Some haggling went on but always a cup of tea and biscuits at the end. Ya had the dodgy bucks alright!

kerry cow

The problem with them is that they can nt give you a fair price , they feel the need to screw you , in most cases .

Willfarman

Mad4CHX wrote: »

Jaysus you are showing your age Willfarman, thought ya were a young fella! Presume not many jobbers left. I remember when the father used to have 4 or 5 calves on a cow back in the day. We would have a regular jobber or two that would call. Some haggling went on but always a cup of tea and biscuits at the end. Ya had the dodgy bucks alright!

The only fair I ever seen was the funfair! Just be listening to my da. The dealer would bid you before you got to the Main Street. The farmer unsure of the trade would decline to take his chance in the fair. Half the day standing and no dealer would bid him. Then the original lad would appear and bid him less than earlier. The trade is down. No. All the way up to the original offer. The bundle of notes. No deal but hold the money in your hand.. Arse out of his trousers. Rates to be paid and children wanting shoes my grandfathers resolve would be broken. Thank god for the mart ring! I think the dealers tried boycotting them at first.

Willfarman

kerry cow wrote: »

The problem with them is that they can nt give you a fair price , they feel the need to screw you , in most cases .

That is the jobbers code. It's the tangling the chasing and codding that drives them on and always did.

grizzlyadams

kerry cow wrote: »

The problem with them is that they can nt give you a fair price , they feel the need to screw you , in most cases .

You could apply that to most industries in this country hah !

patsy_mccabe

boggerman1 wrote: »

Used to work in one of the major marts in tipp for about 15 yrs.the heifer ring in particular used to be such a no mans land trying to beat the dealers.in particular the cull cows,u take this one and i will have the next one.......

I don't get this. So you're saying that there is a mart in Tipp where the dealers control everything. They 'divide' everything up between them and pay crap prices. Yet farmers keep bringing cattle to this mart despite the bad prices and no farmer ever tries to buy there despite the value to be got.

Base price

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I don't get this. So you're saying that there is a mart in Tipp where the dealers control everything. They 'divide' everything up between them and pay crap prices. Yet farmers keep bringing cattle to this mart despite the bad prices and no farmer ever tries to buy there despite the value to be got.

TBH I would not be surprised although nowdays one would think that such practices are gone - unfortunately they are still alive and kicking. No offence but you obviously don't spend much time in marts/notice what is going on around the sale rings.
Years ago Ashbourne mart was an excellent mart but imo it was taken over by dealers in cattle and their annual turkey sales during the 90's. A lot of their business was switched to Maynooth and Drogheda. Unfortunately both of those marts, due to their location within urban areas succumbed to the pressures of the expanding demand for houses at the time.
I have not stood in a mart to buy stock in the last 6 or 7 years. With the 4 herd movement restriction (BB/factory scheme) I prefer to buy ex farm (second movement) where I can see the animals/set up at my leisure.

boggerman1

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I don't get this. So you're saying that there is a mart in Tipp where the dealers control everything. They 'divide' everything up between them and pay crap prices. Yet farmers keep bringing cattle to this mart despite the bad prices and no farmer ever tries to buy there despite the value to be got.

Its not as bad now but u misunderstood what i was saying.in particular with cull cows lads that sold them in singles it was easier for the boys to have this one and i take the next one.they never liked outside lads coming in and for a period of time the boss of donegal meats used to come and buy there.he took no crap and put manners on the usual suspects around the ring.that mart i worked in is very well ran nowadays and its increase in cattle numbers running tru it shows its a good run ship.i never said it was badly run either.far from it.but to avoid the carve up when selling by putting cattle together in even bunches certainly helps

charolais0153

They wouldn't let a farmer in to their circle...they'd make them dear for the farmer

patsy_mccabe

charolais0153 wrote: »

They wouldn't let a farmer in to their circle...they'd make them dear for the farmer

But sure all the farmer has to do is stop bidding and they are stuck with them. Farmer keeps doing this and the mart gets dear very quick.

boggerman1

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

But sure all the farmer has to do is stop bidding and they are stuck with them. Farmer keeps doing this and the mart gets dear very quick.

Bang on.if u left them with a couple of dear ones they will cop on fast enough

J.O. Farmer

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

But sure all the farmer has to do is stop bidding and they are stuck with them. Farmer keeps doing this and the mart gets dear very quick.

It'd hardly make sense for a dealer to take the risk either over a farmer whos probably not going to be there the following week.
It might be a different story some lad trying to do a bit of dealing.
I seem to remember something on the journal where they sent a stranger to compete with the dealers for finished cattle. He lost money but only the amount of the last bid on each animal. The dealers knew the value and pulled out once it went above that.

kerry cow

I think the managers and auctioneers are all too buddy with the dealers .yes granted they have to do business but drink coffee and hoping smiley joke across the ring to each other is too cosy for me .
It's like the school principal has their job to do but don't lunch with the kids or any good manager in any business keeps their distance from the employees and still gets the job done .

J.O. Farmer

kerry cow wrote: »

I think the managers and auctioneers are all too buddy with the dealers .yes granted they have to do business but drink coffee and hoping smiley joke across the ring to each other is too cosy for me .
It's like the school principal has their job to do but don't lunch with the kids or any good manager in any business keeps their distance from the employees and still gets the job done .

Are you saying they ignore bids from others to sell to their mates.

patsy_mccabe

It's a pity more Marts are not on a Saturday. More part timers around the ring to keep the bids going.