Wisdom Tooth - No Medical Card

Rovers689

I know a lot of people won't be happy I'm even asking this question but I'm in a lot of pain. I had pain before and my dentist told me it was the wisdom tooth coming through and gave me an antibiotic for the infection. I had no pain for a number of days but yesterday the pain came back and it's probably worse than the first time I had the pain. The dentist did say if the infection didn't clear the wisdom tooth would have to be removed.


 The problem I have is that I have no medical card but also no income from employment and also can't get any social welfare payment because of my parents. I researched wisdom tooth removal and it seems it can be expensive depending on a few factors, someone gave me the idea to pretend I am my brother and use his medical card.


What I wanted to know is will the dentist know I am not who I'm saying I am if I go to a dentist my brother or I have never went to?


(I know this is wrong but this is probably the worst pain I have been in and I genuinely don't have the money to pay for it unless I get a loan from a family member and I don't think anyone would give me the money.)

helimachoptor

Sorry Rovers but what you are doing is fraud and to be honest i'm not sure if you can get wisdom teeth removed on the medical card (one of the dentists can clarify this)

In short if you want it fixed asap, you need to get the cash, probably talking 250/300 for a single tooth without sedation, sedation is extra.

Miaireland

Dental records? They are unique. Contact your local Dental Hospital and see how to get sent to them.

Dianthus

If it'a an impacted lower wisdom tooth, that's not really within the remit of a general dentist- you may need to be referred to a specialist oral surgeon, for a surgical extraction under IV sedation or general anaesthetic .
As to fraudulently assuming your brothers' identity....guess it depends on what checks are done, how vigilant the practice is in terms of verifying identity, & what lengths the practice will go to in order to recoup costs (debt collection firm, solicitor, guards, ect). Another thing to bear in mind is that you may be jeopardising your brothers future dental treatment.

Professor Moriarty

Rovers689 wrote: »

I know a lot of people won't be happy I'm even asking this question but I'm in a lot of pain. I had pain before and my dentist told me it was the wisdom tooth coming through and gave me an antibiotic for the infection. I had no pain for a number of days but yesterday the pain came back and it's probably worse than the first time I had the pain. The dentist did say if the infection didn't clear the wisdom tooth would have to be removed.


 The problem I have is that I have no medical card but also no income from employment and also can't get any social welfare payment because of my parents. I researched wisdom tooth removal and it seems it can be expensive depending on a few factors, someone gave me the idea to pretend I am my brother and use his medical card.


What I wanted to know is will the dentist know I am not who I'm saying I am if I go to a dentist my brother or I have never went to?


(I know this is wrong but this is probably the worst pain I have been in and I genuinely don't have the money to pay for it unless I get a loan from a family member and I don't think anyone would give me the money.)

Get your pain sorted asap. If anybody comes after you for 'fraud' tell them you were in agony and couldn't afford to pay. Then tell them to f*** off.

davo10

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Get your pain sorted asap. If anybody comes after you for 'fraud' tell them you were in agony and couldn't afford to pay. Then tell them to f*** off.

Yip, that always works.

No one, not a dentist nor an oral surgeon is going to undertake a surgical procedure like that without checking if they are going to be paid. That includes checking with the local HSE to check if card is valid and matches the person in the chair. I had a few people try this years ago when I was in Med card scheme, I kicked them out the door and informed the local Health Board that the card holder was allowing his/her card to be fraudulently used.

Professor Moriarty

davo10 wrote: »

Yip, that always works.

No one, not a dentist nor an oral surgeon is going to undertake a surgical procedure like that without checking if they are going to be paid. That includes checking with the local HSE to check if card is valid and matches the person in the chair. I had a few people try this years ago when I was in Med card scheme, I kicked them out the door and informed the local Health Board that the card holder was allowing his/her card to be fraudulently used.

So someone presented to you in agony, said they couldn't afford to pay you and had tried fraud because they had no other option, and you kick them out the door and report them for fraud. Ok.

davo10

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

So someone presented to you in agony, said they couldn't afford to pay you and had tried fraud because they had no other option, and you kick them out the door and report them for fraud. Ok.

Yip, why wouldn't I? They tried to con me and defraud the HB.

Professor Moriarty

davo10 wrote: »

Yip, why wouldn't I? They tried to con me and defraud the HB.

Oh I don't know. Some kindness to a fellow human being in agony. Something like: "You seem in terrible pain, let me help you and we can sort out payment afterwards." Pro bono in exceptional circumstances. Or maybe the money is always more important.

helimachoptor

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Oh I don't know. Some kindness to a fellow human being in agony. Something like: "You seem in terrible pain, let me help you and we can sort out payment afterwards." Pro bono in exceptional circumstances. Or maybe the money is always more important.

I'm not a dentist but if you pro bono'd for every "exceptional" case you'd be broke.

Everyone thinks their case is exceptional

Professor Moriarty

helimachoptor wrote: »

I'm not a dentist but if you pro bono'd for every "exceptional" case you'd be broke.

Everyone thinks their case is exceptional

I'm not a dentist either, but I have worked pro bono in exceptional circumstances. Someone presenting in agony to a dentist who is unable to afford treatment is an exceptional circumstance. I would not turn an exceptional circumstance away.

Rovers689

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Get your pain sorted asap. If anybody comes after you for 'fraud' tell them you were in agony and couldn't afford to pay. Then tell them to f*** off.

I know everyone says this but I wouldn't have a problem paying if I did have the money, I paid for 3 fillings and scale and polish last year when I had money but when you genuinely don't have the money and your in bad pain you consider doing things that you normally wouldn't do.

The only thing I'm worried about is what Miaireland said, if my brother got a tooth filled or pulled from a different dentist can the dentist see that and if I don't have the same filling it will be obvious.

Dianthus it's actually on the top gum, will that make it any easier? I think he did mention something about a referral though.

Professor Moriarty

Rovers689 wrote: »

I know everyone says this but I wouldn't have a problem paying if I did have the money, I paid for 3 fillings and scale and polish last year when I had money but when you genuinely don't have the money and your in bad pain you consider doing things that you normally wouldn't do.

The only thing I'm worried about is what Miaireland said, if my brother got a tooth filled or pulled from a different dentist can the dentist see that and if I don't have the same filling it will be obvious.

Dianthus it's actually on the top gum, will that make it any easier? I think he did mention something about a referral though.

I would be wary of taking any specific medical advice on the internet. For what it's worth, I have a a few friends who are dentists and I doubt very much of they would turn someone away. Ditto most professionals in exceptional circumstances. If it gets really bad maybe A&E to try to force the issue?

HanaleiJ5N

I can relate to the feeling of desperation this can bring, when I was younger (didn't have health insurance and no medical card as I was working) my lower wisdom teeth were impacted and I had to wait almost a year on the public waiting list to get it sorted. I was in constant pain through out that time, went through a pack and a half of Panadol Actifast a day. It takes over your life, the surgery was the best thing that ever happened me.

I won't condone medical card fraud but it really wouldn't be smart in this case, when it involves surgery and dental records I think it's near impossible you'll get away with it.

I wish I could offer helpful advice that would be a bit more immediate than go public and wait it out and try your best to manage the pain in the meantime. Ask your dentist to arrange this for you maybe?

Best of luck, I admire your honesty, usually these threads trot out the usual " Asking on behalf of a friend" bullcrap!

davo10

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Oh I don't know. Some kindness to a fellow human being in agony. Something like: "You seem in terrible pain, let me help you and we can sort out payment afterwards." Pro bono in exceptional circumstances. Or maybe the money is always more important.

Ironic that you take the moral high ground after posting "Tell them to f**k off".

Offering to do pro bono treatment for those in need is a very different scenario to someone who tries to fraudulently use someone else's card to con the dentist, then tells them to F off.

Dianthus

Rovers689 wrote: »

I know everyone says this but I wouldn't have a problem paying if I did have the money, I paid for 3 fillings and scale and polish last year when I had money but when you genuinely don't have the money and your in bad pain you consider doing things that you normally wouldn't do
Dianthus it's actually on the top gum, will that make it any easier? I think he did mention something about a referral though.

Not necessarily easier, just different anatomy (no risk of a numb lip&/tongue). It might still require an oral surgeon.

Look, you obviously have some sort of a professional relationship with a dentist whereby you have paid for treatment in the very recent past. Ergo, I would say to you to approach them, explain your situation, & ask advice. What's the worst they can say to you? I'd also advise asking your family for financial help- it's not fair to put all the onus on strangers when your own blood relatives won't see you right.

Professor Moriarty

davo10 wrote: »

Ironic that you take the moral high ground after posting "Tell them to f**k off".

Offering to do pro bono treatment for those in need is a very different scenario to someone who tries to fraudulently use someone else's card to con the dentist, then tells them to F off.

If, in the exceptional circumstances that the OP is outlining, the dentist/HSE pursued a person who was in agony and had no other choice but to try fraud, then the person should rightly tell them to f*** off if they continued to be pursued having explained their position and reasons why.

Professor Moriarty

Dianthus wrote: »

Not necessarily easier, just different anatomy (no risk of a numb lip&/tongue). It might still require an oral surgeon.

Look, you obviously have some sort of a professional relationship with a dentist whereby you have paid for treatment in the very recent past. Ergo, I would say to you to approach them, explain your situation, & ask advice. What's the worst they can say to you? I'd also advise asking your family for help- it's not fair to put all the onus on strangers when your own blood relatives won't see you right.

Exactly. Especially If he/she has already made money out of you.

Oral Surgeon

Get real here op,
How much can you afford to pay? Give me a figure??

davo10

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If, in the exceptional circumstances that the OP is outlining, the dentist/HSE pursued a person who was in agony and had no other choice but to try fraud, then the person should rightly tell them to f*** off if they continued to be pursued having explained their position and reasons why.

This is why dentists do not routinely provide pro bono treatments. People like you make it more difficult for the deserving. You tell them to F off, most would genuinely try to pay when they could.

Rovers689

Appreciate the replies Moriarty, the pain got that bad this evening I was thinking of going to doctor on call or A&E but then I thought that would be €100 I could put towards getting the wisdom tooth done. But thankfully the pain has eased in the last while and is manageable again.


Thanks for the post HanaleiJ5N, good to hear from someone who knows the situation I'm in.
I knew this would get a bad reaction but I know it doesn't make it any better but I know people who use other people's medical card for A&E and prescriptions and use the excuse they have no money but you would see them out drinking at the weekend and also driving big engine cars that they really don't need. I genuinely don't have the money and Dianthus I have asked family and they said they can see I'm in pain but wouldn't have the full amount of money to give to me right now and I know they're telling the truth.


Oral Surgeon I could probably get 100-150 but I would be another good while trying to get the rest of the money together.

Rovers689

Davo please don't confuse me with Professor Moriarty, I never said I would tell them to f*** off. I understand the position the dentist's are in, doing things for free isn't going to pay their bills.

I'm not saying this to justify what I was thinking of doing but do the dentist's not get paid if someone gets it done on the medical card? So would the dentist be out of pocket?

Dianthus

OP you've been very honest about your circumstances & fair dues to you for that .
It's clear that you're a genuine case, not one of the "screw you, sucker!" brigade.
Your dentist will know your good character & history from previous . Approach them to see how ye can get this sorted

Stealthfins

Look you're in pain,a course of antibiotics will take the infection down.
Your doctor could even prescribe them if you have an abscess, good pain killers will help too.
Then get an appointment for the dentist,no dentist will leave you in pain.
It's an urban myth that you have to pay upfront dentist's won't let you suffer,if the infection got bad enough it could cause heart problems.
I know a good dentist not far from Galway Pm me if you like,it's fast enough to get an appointment he's in a rural village,and he's well qualified to take out that bad one.
He's a qualified maxiofacial surgeon too I think.
He looked after me when my other dentist would only send me to the regional in Limerick

Oh yeah my pain got so bad I went to the Shannon doc for a pain injection,if effing did the job for a few days....

Professor Moriarty

davo10 wrote:

This is why dentists do not routinely provide pro bono treatments. People like you make it more difficult for the deserving. You tell them to F off, most would genuinely try to pay when they could.

Have you actually read what they wrote? Unless they are lying, they would pay if they could. If I was in serious and unremitting pain, and the state wouldn't help me, I'd do whatever I could to get the pain sorted.

uck51js9zml2yt

Your best option
http://www.dentalhospital.ie/patients/emergency-dental-care/

Rovers689

Thanks Dianthus, I know the type of people your talking about and I'd like to think I'm not or ever will be one of those people.
Thanks for the advice Stealthfins. I won't be pm'ing you though because I'm about 3 hours away from Galway.
That's how I am starting to feel Professor Moriarty.

Dianthus

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Have you actually read what they wrote? Unless they are lying, they would pay if they could. If I was in serious and unremitting pain, and the state wouldn't help me, I'd do whatever I could to get the pain sorted.

With all due respect, every single dental surgery in the country sees at least 3 patients daily with "serious& unremitting pain". It's not exceptional, unusual, or even rare. It's an integral part of the job.

Professor Moriarty

Dianthus wrote:

With all due respect, every single dental surgery in the country sees at least 3 patients daily with "serious& unremitting pain". It's not exceptional, unusual, or even rare. It's an integral part of the job.

I've no doubt. I have been that soldier. On average, how many of those would have been in the OP's predicament?

Stealthfins

Rovers689 wrote:

Thanks Dianthus, I know the type of people your talking about and I'd like to think I'm not or ever will be one of those people. Thanks for the advice Stealthfins. I won't be pm'ing you though because I'm about 3 hours away from Galway. That's how I am starting to feel Professor Moriarty.

No problem, I know the feeling.
My best advice is pain relief for now.
I needed instant relief he injected me on above my hip somewhere.

The relief was almost instantaneous.

Warm water and salt does the job sometimes.

There's also a nerve above your eyebrow you can pinch and it relieves the pain.
My exe who was a nurse showed me the technique,it works for a few minutes.

A walk is also good, because when you're inactive the throbbing gets worse.

Even if you do a bit of hoovering or something...sounds mad but I'm only sharing what works for me....

Dianthus

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I've no doubt. I have been that soldier. On average, how many of those would have been in the OP's predicament?

Certainly more than one, anyway
I'm not involved in audits of payments or non-payments, HSE reports or such like.
I just feel it's important to note that every patient in combined, & severe, dental & financial pain, faces the same predicament. And the ramifications for the state & the economy & just the general goodwill of people full stop, is serious if everyone adopted the "f*** you" approach that you espouse.
There is a solution to this. & OP should speak with his dentist to find it.

Professor Moriarty

Dianthus wrote:

Certainly more than one, anyway I'm not involved in audits of payments or non-payments, HSE reports or such like. I just feel it's important to note that every patient in combined, & severe, dental & financial pain, faces the same predicament. And the ramifications for the state & the economy & just the general goodwill of people full stop, is serious if everyone adopted the "f*** you" approach that you espouse. There is a solution to this. & OP should speak with his dentist to find it.

I agree that's his best way forward. To say that I espouse a f*** you approach is, with respect, disingenuous or you have misread my posts.

Stheno

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Get your pain sorted asap. If anybody comes after you for 'fraud' tell them you were in agony and couldn't afford to pay. Then tell them to f*** off.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I agree that's his best way forward. To say that I espouse a f*** you approach is, with respect, disingenuous or you have misread my posts.

I don't think I misread your first post that I've quoted?

Dianthus

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If anybody comes after you for 'fraud' tell them you were in agony and couldn't afford to pay. Then tell them to f*** off.

Ok, I misquoted a word, & it wasn't the f one!
The main thing is that OP gets sorted, & in a manner that he can sleep easy at night.
Speaking of which...

Oral Surgeon

Where are you based op?

Professor Moriarty

Dianthus wrote:

Ok, I misquoted a word, & it wasn't the f one! The main thing is that OP gets sorted, & in a manner that he can sleep easy at night. Speaking of which...

Indeed! I was arguing on the basis that he/she was intending to defraud the state not the dentist. No citizen should be left in serious ongoing pain. Anyway, they have received lots of good advice which is the most important thing.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

There is a chap on here call oral surgeon ask where the OP is and what he can afford to pay....if the OP might get the hint and PM oral surgeon a deal may be done.

Professor Moriarty....dishonesty is always dishonesty. an upper wisdom tooth can cost as little as 60-80 euro to remove. There is nobody who cannot beg or borrow that off their friends or family. If a drug addict is in pain with withdrawals is it OK if they rob your house to get money for drugs?

Rovers689

Oral Surgeon I'm about 45 mins to an hour away from Dublin. Don't mean to be too vague but not sure whether I should be too specific considering I was talking about attempted fraud.

Fitsgeme - As I said before I would be able to get that amount but I thought it would be more in the region of €300-400.

After talking to a family member and seeing the advice on here I'm going to see if I can get an appointment for tomorrow to see what he says.

I don't post here often, so not sure who's who, but if 'Oral Surgeon' is indeed a dentist offering assistance here, then I have to say, fair play to him. Hat is firmly in the air for him and I sincerely hope he's getting good karma for it (regardless of whether the OP takes him up on it or not, to even offer the help is a genuinely lovely thing to see anyone do).


That said, I've no idea who's who on here, so Oral Surgeon could well be a stand up comedian simply writing a 'bit' for his next show. But if he is offering genuine help, i stand by the above

Rovers689

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't post here often, so not sure who's who, but if 'Oral Surgeon' is indeed a dentist offering assistance here, then I have to say, fair play to him. Hat is firmly in the air for him and I sincerely hope he's getting good karma for it (regardless of whether the OP takes him up on it or not, to even offer the help is a genuinely lovely thing to see anyone do).


That said, I've no idea who's who on here, so Oral Surgeon could well be a stand up comedian simply writing a 'bit' for his next show. But if he is offering genuine help, i stand by the above

Yeah I wasn't sure if it was an offer or not but if it was I appreciate it very much.

As I said I'll see what my own dentist says first, I'm a bit away from Dublin and I don't drive so if I could get resolved closer to home it would be great. I'll update the thread tomorrow.

Any advice to get me through the night? Really don't think I'll be able to sleep at all. Stealthfins tip of walking does seem to help after a while but for some reason a hot water bottle seems to make it worse. Salt and water also has no effect.

ballsymchugh

Rovers689 wrote: »

Oral Surgeon I'm about 45 mins to an hour away from Dublin. Don't mean to be too vague but not sure whether I should be too specific considering I was talking about attempted fraud.

Fitsgeme - As I said before I would be able to get that amount but I thought it would be more in the region of €300-400.

After talking to a family member and seeing the advice on here I'm going to see if I can get an appointment for tomorrow to see what he says.

ah here, you're not going to get a knock on your door if you say which town, some of us work in the commuter towns and could point you in the direction of someone who may be able to help you.

Professor Moriarty

I know that giving medical advice is frowned on but regarding pain relief here's an idle thought: <snip>

MOD EDIT: It's not frowned upon, it's explicitly against the rules and for good reason.

Big_G

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

So someone presented to you in agony, said they couldn't afford to pay you and had tried fraud because they had no other option, and you kick them out the door and report them for fraud. Ok.

This is the flawed crux of your argument. No treatment relationship can exist without trust. If the patient had presented saying that they couldn't afford treatment that might be different. But we are hypothesizing a fraudulent presentation and therefore the trust is unlikely to be repaired after that. The patient is likely to be pursued for the costs and possibly worse. Also the medical card holder could be pursued for allowing their card to be used fraudulently and the card could be revoked. This argument of 'f**k off' is irrelevant, the fact that a persons individual negative situation can suddently make unethical behaviour ethical is a nonsense, especially when there are so many avenues to avail of treatment - the patient is just unaware of them.

Your best bet is to approach your dentist, with whom you've presumably built up a bit of trust and explain to them your issue. At worst you will probably get a prescription that can buy time.

doc11

davo10 wrote: »

Yip, that always works.

No one, not a dentist nor an oral surgeon is going to undertake a surgical procedure like that without checking if they are going to be paid. That includes checking with the local HSE to check if card is valid and matches the person in the chair. I had a few people try this years ago when I was in Med card scheme, I kicked them out the door and informed the local Health Board that the card holder was allowing his/her card to be fraudulently used.

How to you do this? Do you honestly ask everyone for photo ID with medical card

BrianG23

Rovers689 wrote: »

I know a lot of people won't be happy I'm even asking this question but I'm in a lot of pain. I had pain before and my dentist told me it was the wisdom tooth coming through and gave me an antibiotic for the infection. I had no pain for a number of days but yesterday the pain came back and it's probably worse than the first time I had the pain. The dentist did say if the infection didn't clear the wisdom tooth would have to be removed.


 The problem I have is that I have no medical card but also no income from employment and also can't get any social welfare payment because of my parents. I researched wisdom tooth removal and it seems it can be expensive depending on a few factors, someone gave me the idea to pretend I am my brother and use his medical card.


What I wanted to know is will the dentist know I am not who I'm saying I am if I go to a dentist my brother or I have never went to?


(I know this is wrong but this is probably the worst pain I have been in and I genuinely don't have the money to pay for it unless I get a loan from a family member and I don't think anyone would give me the money.)

Friend of mines dentist told him to get on pain killers, get a medical card and come back in a few months due to the costs. The dentist told him to lie about the pain.

davo10

doc11 wrote: »

How to you do this? Do you honestly ask everyone for photo ID with medical card

For new patients there re are a number of ways. Yes you ask the patient have they any form of ID, a drivers licesnse, even a bank card with their name on it. Secondly, you'd be surprised how often people using someone else's card actually fill out their own info on their chart, the info of the card holder can be confirmed with the HSE and lastly, a quick question to the patient about previous treatment can also be confirmed with the HSE. It's pretty quick and easy, do you think Professor Moriarty is the first person to advocate this?

If the op came into me in pain, I would treat him and sort out payment later. Upper wisdom teeth are usually relatively quick and easy to remove. But, if he tried to con me I would be less inclined to help, honesty is the best policy. As for the F you attitude of PM, this makes it harder to trust the honesty of someone like the op, the suspicion is always that he could be a scrot like the good Professor.

Incidentally PM, unless things have changed in the last 10 years, the HSE only make payment to the dentist for treatments carried out on a valid card holder. If the details given by the person using the card fraudulently do not match the card holders, then the fees are not paid to the dentist.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Faith Jolly Saliva wrote: »

I am not a dentist but I got 4 of mine out up the north. 3 on one visit and 1 on another visit. Best trip to the dentist I ever had.
The relief was amazing and no messing around waiting for hospital appointments or whatever. It did cost though, but it was still cheaper at the time there than it would have been here.

How much was it including travel costs?

lawred2

helimachoptor wrote: »

I'm not a dentist but if you pro bono'd for every "exceptional" case you'd be broke.

Everyone thinks their case is exceptional

no you wouldn't...

the vast majority of private dental work is elective

davo10

lawred2 wrote: »

no you wouldn't...

the vast majority of private dental work is elective

What do you base that on?

I can assure you that a very, very small percentage of patients elect to have treatment they don't need. Cosmetic treatments tend to be elective, fillings/extractions/cleanings are due to pathology.

ohnonotgmail

lawred2 wrote: »

no you wouldn't...

the vast majority of private dental work is elective

No idea what you are basing that on. I know very few people who elect to get dental work done. it is all done out of necessity.

Oral Surgeon

PM sent