On Probation due to being ill

thecelt

I am a permanent employee. I have been told I am on probation because I called out sick 4 times in the course of 2016. All legitimite, most with medical certs and the total duration well below the amount of sick days allowed as per my contract.To get off probation I am not not supposed to be out sick for 6 months. I am the kind of person who only calls in sick when it's totally necessary. Is this legal or just bully tactics.

Steve

Bully tactics maybe.

What is in your contract WRT sick days? How many days were you out?

They can't penalise you for being sick (within reason.. i.e. a few days here and there) if it's certified but if you are taking a month off each time then you could be in bother.

twowheelsonly

What size / type of company is it and how long have you been there ?

The reason I ask is because with some of the bigger companies (think American style corporations...) is that this can be fairly bog-standard and a box ticking exercise for HR. If it was a smaller local company then I'd be thinking along the lines of harassment / bullying.

On the other hand, if you've only worked there for 12 months or so and have already been out sick 4 times I couldn't really blame the company for questioning it.

thecelt

Contract says max sick days 20. Took less than this. One was only a one day. Heading for 3year mark. About 100 employees. Am not alone, others who have been legitimely sick have been told the same. They don't take the days into account, its the number of occurences.

Steve

Is there anything in your contract that covers this? (not employee handbook / guidelines, something you signed and accepted).

You need to formally ask why you are on 'probation' and what it means. Get it in writing / email.

screamer

You can't be put on probation as an employee with 3 years of service! You need to find out what this "probation" is about sounds to me like it's some sort of unofficial warning to improve your attendance at work. But you need to find out more details on this.

scudzilla

thecelt wrote: »

Contract says max sick days 20. Took less than this. One was only a one day. Heading for 3year mark. About 100 employees. Am not alone, others who have been legitimely sick have been told the same. They don't take the days into account, its the number of occurences.

A lot of companies won't take the days into account, just the number of occurences

If you're off for 2 weeks (10 working days) in one stretch then yeah, it's a problem to them but possibly understandable.

If you're off every other Monday for 5 months then that's the same amount of days off but will be red flagged straight away

twowheelsonly

If you're there 3 years then there's no way they should be putting you on probation although some places do put you on what's known, for some reason, as 'a schedule'.
A lot of places also count the instances and not the days even though you may be still well under the days count. This tends to be because it can be a better indicator of abusing the system .ie. someone in your place could have 10 instances and still be within the 20 days whereas 10 instances of sick would IMO be taking the proverbial in most cases.
In your instance my feeling is that they're firing a warning shot across the bows. Don't be afraid to go to HR or whoever is responsible in your place and contest it. Don't discuss your medical issues but inform them that your Doctor would be more than willing to speak to their company Doctor if they have any doubts about your integrity.

Different places react differently but most don't like to be challenged. Neither, in most cases, can they fire you due to genuine illness (e.g. Cancer, Heart Attacks etc..)

BTW, I'm presuming that by 20 days they mean that you're paid for up to 20 days sick ? If so, that's actually quite generous for a private company. They're not obliged to pay you for your sick leave but most do have some sort of scheme in place.

TimeToShine

Doubt it's 20 days paid sick leave. Maybe 5 and then the rest deducted from salaries pro rata.

Irish_Elect_Eng

TimeToShine wrote: »

Doubt it's 20 days paid sick leave. Maybe 5 and then the rest deducted from salaries pro rata.

20 Days is reasonable, we offer some contracts that allows for 26 weeks paid sick leave.

In terms of the system normally used in larger MNC to track absenteeism, look up the Bradford Factor It is heavily weighted by number of absences as opposed to duration.

It is normal to initiate the disciplinary process after a set number of absences, certified or not, although this is normally handled in conjunction with clear communication with the employees and clearly defined in the employee handbook/procedures.

Tony EH

What kind of company puts a three year employee on "probation" for being sick?

It frightens me when I hear shitty stories like this. The world of work is getting worse and worse for the employee.

To the OP, it sounds like bullying.

fearrchair

The place l work it's 4 days uncertified and 2 weeks (10 days) Certified anything after that and it's a bonus or claim holidays or social welfare

Mrs OBumble

Probation is the wrong word, but its quite legal to put you on some kind of disciplinary.

The fact that its certified is irrelevant: the cert explains but does not excuse your inability to fulfill your contract. And you can be fired for this, unless its due to a disability which they could reasonably accommodate.

Four separate illnesses in a year is a lot. The fact that your contract allows a certain amount of sick leave means that they most likey have thought this through. Being put on a disciplinary for it would only be bullying if it wasn't done to everyone who reached the trigger point.

Reati

"Mrs wrote:

Four separate illnesses in a year is a lot.

Are you for real?

silent_spark

Reati wrote: »

Are you for real?

I think it's a lot too. If it's an anomaly in an employee's record that would be fine, but if an employee was out that often every year it would bring their ability to do the job into question.

seamus

Likely you're on a performance improvement plan rather than probation. The company still can't let you go without following due process just because you're on a PIP.

I agree with everything Mrs O'Bumble says. 4 separate no-shows in a year for sickness is unlucky, but above the norm. If you say that others have gotten the same, then it sounds like the company are tightening up due to abuse of the system. So they just picked a figure and put everyone with more sicknesses than that, on a PIP.

Although being fair they would allow a single sickness in a six-month period, so that you don't end up coming into work and infecting everyone else.

Your contract might say a maximum of 20 sick days, but this is probably a maximum of 20 paid sick days before you have to claim from social welfare. It doesn't mean you're entitled to take 20 sick days in a given year, just outlines what the company will do in the event that you become seriously ill.

brightspark

I once worked for what was at the time an American firm and went sick (genuinely) a couple of times, but I had to attend a meeting with my manager about it. As he said at the time it was a box ticking exercise. They worried that if they didn't follow the exact same procedure with all employees, then when they actually needed to fire someone it might be argued that the employee had been singled out.
They were being careful to be seen to be applying the same procedures to all employees even when they were well aware that it had been genuine in my case.

Reati

silent_spark wrote: »

I think it's a lot too. If it's an anomaly in an employee's record that would be fine, but if an employee was out that often every year it would bring their ability to do the job into question.

I'm a little stunned to think people think getting sick 4 times in a year is high or abnormal.

Food poisoning, flu, chest infection and migraine are 4 that can easily happen in a year.

Having policies or workplace attitudes that workers fear taking sick days is poor thinking and leads to one flu or stomach bug spreading to an larger part of workforce.

I'm sure people take the piss and that should be addressed but 4 sicknesses is not high.

infogiver

Reati wrote: »

I'm a little stunned to think people think getting sick 4 times in a year is high or abnormal.

Food poisoning, flu, chest infection and migraine are 4 that can easily happen in a year.

Having policies or workplace attitudes that workers fear taking sick days is poor thinking and leads to one flu or stomach bug spreading to an larger part of workforce.

I'm sure people take the piss and that should be addressed but 4 sicknesses is not high.

I had none of these last year at all and had maybe one sick day the year before or in recent memory.
Or at least I had nothing which would keep me home from work, a couple of paracetamol. A spoon of Benylin.
I find it stunning that someone would find it normal to have 4 different sicknesses in 1 year!

duffman13

In a lot of business your fourth absence is treated as first stage of disciplinary proceedings. After which you would be given a verbal warning. This would then escalate based on whether or not your absent. Verbal warnings usually last 6 months but can vary depending on your company. To be honest it's usually nothing personal but just procedure being followed to manage absence levels

Reati

infogiver wrote: »

I had none of these last year at all and had maybe one sick day the year before or in recent memory.
Or at least I had nothing which would keep me home from work, a couple of paracetamol. A spoon of Benylin.
I find it stunning that someone would find it normal to have 4 different sicknesses in 1 year!

Good for you. I bow before your superior health last year. I unfortunately had a chest infection twice and a stomach bug this year. None of those were me going, jaysus I'd love a few days off to cough up a lung or vomit. I never miss work unless I have too. I guess it depends on which industry you work. Glad I'm not in the ones were attendance is viewed to equal productive output.

Anyway, we're going off topic. Let us know how you get on OP.

seamus

Reati wrote: »

I'm a little stunned to think people think getting sick 4 times in a year is high or abnormal.

Food poisoning, flu, chest infection and migraine are 4 that can easily happen in a year.

I would class that as a pretty bad year for sickness. So would most people.

Most years I get one cold that will require taking a day or two off work. Last year I had no sick days, though I had a couple of colds.

I don't disagree that a culture of being afraid to call in sick is a bad one, but likewise a company needs to keep some kind of leash on these things. Some people will ring in sick at the slightest sniffle, headache or hangover.

So they have to draw a line somewhere, and this company has chosen to draw the line at 4 incidents. You might say that's low, but if they said 6, someone else would say 6 is too low.

In ideal world companies could be confident that people would come into work because they want to and only ring in sick when they're incapable. But in some jobs/industries if you tell someone the limit is 4 illnesses per year, they will make sure they "use" their 4 illnesses every year.

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TimeToShine

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

20 Days is reasonable, we offer some contracts that allows for 26 weeks paid sick leave.

In terms of the system normally used in larger MNC to track absenteeism, look up the Bradford Factor It is heavily weighted by number of absences as opposed to duration.

It is normal to initiate the disciplinary process after a set number of absences, certified or not, although this is normally handled in conjunction with clear communication with the employees and clearly defined in the employee handbook/procedures.

Apologies, I was under the impression that we were talking about casual sick leave. You are right regarding long term illness - but I'd be very surprised if any company in Ireland offered more than 7 days paid casual sick leave.

irelandrover

I think 4 is a lot in a year as well. If its unregular for you then its not really an issue but they have to follow the same rules for everyone.

It could be worse. Everytime i call in sick a doctor comes to my house.

TimeToShine

Reati wrote: »

I'm a little stunned to think people think getting sick 4 times in a year is high or abnormal.

Food poisoning, flu, chest infection and migraine are 4 that can easily happen in a year.

Having policies or workplace attitudes that workers fear taking sick days is poor thinking and leads to one flu or stomach bug spreading to an larger part of workforce.

I'm sure people take the piss and that should be addressed but 4 sicknesses is not high.

You seem to be comparing the generation who came before where job security was all but guaranteed to what's going in the industry now. Young professionals are being thrust into highly competitive environments and calling in sick multiple times a year simply won't cut it unfortunately. I even see it in my place of work, the old hats get the sniffles and take a few days off - younger people coughing and blowing their nose all day but turn up to their desk and keep quiet. I'm not saying it's right but that is what is happening. And that's in Ireland - can you imagine what the US is like?

Reati

seamus wrote: »

In ideal world companies could be confident that people would come into work because they want to and only ring in sick when they're incapable. But in some jobs/industries if you tell someone the limit is 4 illnesses per year, they will make sure they "use" their 4 illnesses every year.

Completely agree. I've no doubt in that actually

TimeToShine wrote: »

You seem to be comparing the generation who came before where job security was all but guaranteed to what's going in the industry now. Young professionals are being thrust into highly competitive environments and calling in sick multiple times a year simply won't cut it unfortunately. I even see it in my place of work, the old hats get the sniffles and take a few days off - younger people coughing and blowing their nose all day but turn up to their desk and keep quiet. I'm not saying it's right but that is what is happening. And that's in Ireland - can you imagine what the US is like?

I work in one of those large US companies since I was a college hire. Many of my friends transferred to the American branch. Sickness is not punished here or there nor are people encouraged to come to work sick. Actually, you will likely have a manager turn up at your desk if you are sick telling you to go home and not to infect the team. We're measured on our getting our work done but that's the industry I'm in. We can work anywhere at anytime.

People seems to think I'm saying there should be no rules or limits - I'm not. I'm saying 4 times a year is not crazy for a person to be sick. Some people will never be sick, others will be less fortunate. It's down to personal circumstance. I don't think I had more than one sick day in about two years before last year, was just an unlucky year. I hate missing work being sick.

It's well within the right of the company to have a figure at which point they should investigate but legitimate sickness (verified by a doctor) should not be punished with "probation" or some similar termed thing. That's all I'm saying.

Interestingly to add data to the discussion instead of opinion.

Employees missed

5.98 days on average

Absence levels were higher in large organisations, 3.58% for companies employing over 500 employees, versus 2.17% for companies with less than 50 employees

The main cause of short-term absence cited for both males and females is minor illness

4% of companies cited alcohol and alcohol-related illness as being a leading cause of short-term absence for males, while the figure is 1% for females.

Call centers recorded the highest absence rate at 3.67% while software companies had the lowest rate at 1.56%

Source IBEC

A new report says it's down to about 5.4 days now.

http://www.thejournal.ie/absenteeism-costs-1941792-Feb2015/

So nearly 6 sick days could be out 4 times in a year or it could be out once. It's all down to personal circumstance I guess.

infogiver

Reati wrote: »

Good for you. I bow before your superior health last year. I unfortunately had a chest infection twice and a stomach bug this year. None of those were me going, jaysus I'd love a few days off to cough up a lung or vomit. I never miss work unless I have too. I guess it depends on which industry you work. Glad I'm not in the ones were attendance is viewed to equal productive output.

Anyway, we're going off topic. Let us know how you get on OP.

My husband had his hernia corrected. He was out sick for 3 weeks
Apart from that he had been out sick for one night in 3 years
It's really amazing how much good health you can enjoy when your employer DOESNT have a sick pay scheme.

jimba

My word. Life is too short. So glad I'm PS.

Reati

infogiver wrote: »

It's really amazing how much good health you can enjoy when your employer DOESNT have a sick pay scheme.

This is a very different thing to what I said and is kinda unrelated to what you originally stated about being sick 4 times in a year is high

infogiver

Reati wrote: »

This is a very different thing to what I said and is kinda unrelated to what you originally stated about being sick 4 times in a year is high

Not really. If your employer didn't pay you while your out sick(by law, he's under no obligation) and taking into account that SW won't give you anything for the first 6 days, how many days would you have stayed home from work through illness last year?

Glenster

This should be enforced everywhere.

I'm sick and tired of colleagues taking 10-15 days sick leave a year because that's what the company allows.

Tony EH

Reati wrote: »

I'm a little stunned to think people think getting sick 4 times in a year is high or abnormal.

Food poisoning, flu, chest infection and migraine are 4 that can easily happen in a year.

Having policies or workplace attitudes that workers fear taking sick days is poor thinking and leads to one flu or stomach bug spreading to an larger part of workforce.

I'm sure people take the piss and that should be addressed but 4 sicknesses is not high.

My wife, this last year has had a cold, an ear infection, throat infection and is just in the latter stages of a flu right now that knocked her out for over two weeks.

It's VERY possible to have illnesses that can keep you from work. Frankly I wouldn't have let her drive with any of those sicknesses.

I guess some just automatically think that people are taking the piss.

It used to be the case that if an employee was ill, you stayed home and not bring it to work to cause further absentees. I suppose petty attitudes reign supreme nowadays.

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Tony EH

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Exactly.

I know several people with Crohn's disease. Getting four flare ups a year can easily happen to them. Add in a cold or two, plus whatever else and they can rack up 4 days no bother.

Maybe we should vet people with Crohn's disease and not let them work, lest they miss a few days.

Whatever would poor company do? :rolleyes:

reallyrose

Just something to consider - sometimes a company will follow the letter of procedure for things like sick leave when they want to phase out an undesirable employee. If the employee's performance is lacklustre but not actually bad, it's difficult in Ireland to let them go based on that. Or if they don't get on well with other team members or any of a dozen other things that makes it hard to work with someone.

Following exact HR procedure is often a prelude to managing someone out.

Tony EH

irelandrover wrote: »

Everytime i call in sick a doctor comes to my house.

What, even for a head cold?

Tony EH

reallyrose wrote: »

Just something to consider - sometimes a company will follow the letter of procedure for things like sick leave when they want to phase out an undesirable employee. If the employee's performance is lacklustre but not actually bad, it's difficult in Ireland to let them go based on that. Or if they don't get on well with other team members or any of a dozen other things that makes it hard to work with someone.

Following exact HR procedure is often a prelude to managing someone out.

Nobody should be let go from a job for "lacklustre" performance, assuming they're doing their job correctly.

If they are a troublesome element, or disruptive, or slacking then there's a case. But merely carrying out your role in an unspectacular way shouldn't ever be a case for dismissal.

irelandrover

Tony EH wrote: »

What, even for a head cold?

Yeah, if i call in sick a doctor comes out. Sick leave in the company is about a quarter of other companies in the same indutry.

OldMrBrennan83

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Tony EH

irelandrover wrote: »

Yeah, if i call in sick a doctor comes out. Sick leave in the company is about a quarter of other companies in the same indutry.

What's the point? No doctor can cure a cold. It's something that will pass through the body naturally.

Calling a doctor out is a complete waste of time.

Stealthfins

I have been seeing a lot of posts up on boards.ie lately about atrocious working conditions, absolutely shocking stuff.

People having to work overtime and not get paid to get their workload done, being overworked isn't a great way to run a company.
Run your staff until they're run down, fck em if they can't handle it,well fire them and hire another twat.

It's obvious who's ever the manager is a **** manager if their staff can't complete a task on time.
Cut management s wages in half employ a few extra staff is better.

As for being sick and you get a warning for it, that's a joke.
Some sshole threatening your lively hood, stressing you out and causing you anxiety in the workplace is totally sht,more bad management again.

I was in a job and the staff were out sick a lot due to stress, it turned out it was the managers fault,the manager was a complete control freak and ran with the hare and hounds.....

Tazz T

Glenster wrote: »

This should be enforced everywhere.

I'm sick and tired of colleagues taking 10-15 days sick leave a year because that's what the company allows.

That sounds serious. Perhaps you should have a few days off sick.

irelandrover

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The company pays for it. Its a big company and they have a doctor on the books.

Tony EH wrote: »

What's the point? No doctor can cure a cold. It's something that will pass through the body naturally.

Calling a doctor out is a complete waste of time.

The doctor notes that you are sick, with a cold, and should stay at home for an amount of days.

The company brought in the policy when they were having a large amount of sick leave. Since they brought it in the sick leave has dropped massively.

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irelandrover

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My opinion is that it has cut down the messers. and that is the reason sick leave has dropped.

Ive called in sick twice. The first time i had a bad cold. I would have taken a day or 2 if it was up to me. I called in sick on tuesday and the doctor told me not to come back until the next week. Same experience the second time where i was given more time off than i would have taken otherwise.

infogiver

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Id stay out as long as I was sick regardless of being paid.

My health is way more important to me and I am not so tight on money as to be unable to be sick.

I also hate people who come in sick and spread it to the whole office. It is discouraged where I currently work and people are sent home so they (a) can recover and (b) not infect the rest of us.

Well good for you and well done that you can afford such a luxury when lots of us can afford no such thing.
Paracetamol Imodium and a good bit of grit can be your saviour when the landlords on the doorstep..

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irelandrover

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Before the doctor called after three days. Surprisingly there was a lot of 2 day absences. They changed it to the doctor calling on the first day and the amount of people calling in sick plummeted.