challenging time for Hospitals

CB19Kevo

Mr. Harris believes it to be a challenging time for hospitals, Yes that would probably be one way to describe it, He did however reject that the situation of 612 patients in trolleys today was entirely predictable.

Well maybe the following clues may have pointed him and hes cabinet to that conclusion.

Not enough nurses,carers and doctors for years - Check
Reduced bed capacity due to closed wards - Check
Increased calls to a under resourced ambulance service - Check
Winter is cold - Check

I aint good with them ol books reding but even i could see a storm brewing.

A DISGRACE,UTTER UTTER DISGRACE.
For young and old to lay on trolleys for hours and hours on end in hospital corridors or waiting to be unloaded from ambulances.
About time politicians admit the clusterf&&k and get dealing with it.:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Tom Mann Centuria

It's actually days on corridors, not just hours, but you're quite right otherwise.

snubbleste

Don't forget the increase in population and particularly inward migration putting pressure on resources

newacc2015

CB19Kevo wrote: »

ould see a storm brewing.

A DISGRACE,UTTER UTTER DISGRACE.
For young and old to lay on trolleys for hours and hours on end in hospital corridors or waiting to be unloaded from ambulances.
About time politicians admit the clusterf&&k and get dealing with it.:mad::mad::mad::mad:

I guarantee if you went to the Mater or James tonight to A&E that it would be full of junkies and alcos. I would imagine every A&E tonight is full of people who could have gone to their GP or call a 24/7 Doctor. But since a lot have medical cards, they arent bothered as its going to cost them to go to A&E.

The real solution to a lot of the overcrowding in hospital is actually charge people for using it. I had a sick relative in hospital and there was an old man who was discharged but refused to go home. He took up a bed for an additional 5 days as he didnt want to go home. What is a TD supposed to do about that? The HSE legal team developed a plan to get people who were discharged out of the hospital and into their home. But there was outrage about it.

People dont respect a free service in Ireland. I dont see how people think a hospital is unique to this. If you were to charge everyone in A&E with a medical card a small fee of say €30 (I know it is sizeable to some, but tiny in comparison to the cost of the service) I guarantee A&E would be pretty empty around the country. There would be no junkies using it as a late night cafe or people who weren't arsed waiting for a GP on call.

Atlantic Dawn

People not being fooked out of the bed they are hogging when they are fine to go home - Check.

Tom Mann Centuria

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

People not being fooked out of the bed they are hogging when they are fine to go home - Check.

People's relatives can no longer cope with their care needs because their carer hours have been cut - check

No nursing home beds to put patients in when they are fine to be discharged - check

mansize

snubbleste wrote: »

Don't forget the increase in population and particularly inward migration putting pressure on resources

Blaming the forrinders- check

andekwarhola

Check.

Stheno

We have the highest spending on health in the Eu along with one of the highest amounts of nurses per capita but less than average the amount of doctors and beds

http://www.finfacts.ie/Irish_finance_news/articleDetail.php?Ireland-second-highest-OECD-health-spending-poorest-outcomes-506

jay1988

mansize wrote: »

Blaming the forrinders- check

He has a point though, inward migration plus an increasing native population would be a reason for extra pressure on any services.

But don't let that get in the way of getting a dig in, well done.

Ted111

No respect for capitilisation - Check.

mansize

jay1988 wrote: »

He has a point though, inward migration plus an increasing native population would be a reason for extra pressure on any services.

But don't let that get in the way of getting a dig in, well done.

Particularly inward migration? Why particularly?

My understanding is the opposite is the case, immigrants use our health services less

SEPT 23 1989

Break up the HSE and bring the nuns back

Tom Mann Centuria

Stheno wrote: »

We have the highest spending on health in the Eu along with one of the highest amounts of nurses per capita but less than average the amount of doctors and beds

http://www.finfacts.ie/Irish_finance_news/articleDetail.php?Ireland-second-highest-OECD-health-spending-poorest-outcomes-506

If you become a manager in the NHS, that is no longer clinical, with zero patient care, you are a manager. If you do the same in Ireland you are still a nurse, and counted as such. This not only scews nursing numbers, but also average wage stats for nurses.



On the wider subject, flu this year is rampant in Irish hospitals putting enormous strain on the already struggling health service.

myshirt

Newacc2015 - you are onto something there, definitely spare capacity that can be freed up there.

However, it is a delicate game. You are trying not to cut off people from the service, while also ensuring the service is not abused.

A nominal fee, similar to charges in pharmacies, or the plastic bag charge, should definitely come in, i.e a charge to encourage a type of behaviour, but at the same time not break someone.

Look at the NHS in the UK, it is up to a month to get a hold of a GP, and the GPs themselves will tell you that a certain amount don't need to be there.

Beasty

snubbleste wrote: »

Don't forget the increase in population and particularly inward migration putting pressure on resources

I'm one of those immigrants. Am I putting pressure on resources? Well actually my employer pays over 10 grand a year for my (and my family's) private health insurance. I also reckon I've paid significantly more tax in Ireland than the average "native" pays in a lifetime. That's on top of the boost to the economy my own employment brings. Most immigrants come here to earn a living and are net contributors to the economy

Boggy Turf

Having worked with the HSE, you would not believe the level of waste and bureaucracy within the "organisation". The levels of zero value add middle management boggles the mind. The unions block any reform but the only solution is widespread redundancies for excessive back office staff and rebuild the system from scratch. There are also many vested interests with political connections e.g I saw tens of millions wasted on renting portacabins at exorbitant prices where they could have built extensions or new buildings for fractions of the cost. It wont happen.

mansize

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Break up the HSE and bring the nuns back

They just bury the sick babies and sell the healthy ones

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Boggy Turf wrote: »

Having worked with the HSE, you would not believe the level of waste and bureaucracy within the "organisation". The levels of zero value add middle management boggles the mind. The unions block any reform but the only solution is widespread redundancies for excessive back office staff and rebuild the system from scratch. There are also many vested interests with political connections e.g I saw millions wasted on renting portacabins at exorbitant prices where they could have built extensions or new buildings for fractions of the cost. It wont happen.

I think you'll find most people are full aware of it.

Atlantic Dawn

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

People's relatives can no longer cope with their care needs because their carer hours have been cut - check

No nursing home beds to put patients in when they are fine to be discharged - check

The hospital bed is no place for them, government should have a much lower cost halfway house to put them in rather than the €1000 a day plus hospital bed.

SEPT 23 1989

mansize wrote: »

They just bury the sick babies and sell the healthy ones

They ran a tight ship alright

Kristopherus

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

People's relatives can no longer cope with their care needs because their carer hours have been cut - check

No nursing home beds to put patients in when they are fine to be discharged - check

Plenty of private nursing home beds available -check.

ChikiChiki

CB19Kevo wrote: »

Mr. Harris believes it to be a challenging time for hospitals, Yes that would probably be one way to describe it, He did however reject that the situation of 612 patients in trolleys today was entirely predictable.

Well maybe the following clues may have pointed him and hes cabinet to that conclusion.

Not enough nurses,carers and doctors for years - Check
Reduced bed capacity due to closed wards - Check
Increased calls to a under resourced ambulance service - Check
Winter is cold - Check

I aint good with them ol books reding but even i could see a storm brewing.

A DISGRACE,UTTER UTTER DISGRACE.
For young and old to lay on trolleys for hours and hours on end in hospital corridors or waiting to be unloaded from ambulances.
About time politicians admit the clusterf&&k and get dealing with it.:mad::mad::mad::mad:

This exact time of year every year the same problem occurs with trollies. It would make you wonder about the competence of our ministers. They are like rabbits caught in headlights even though the issue is so predictable.

jay1988

mansize wrote: »

Particularly inward migration? Why particularly?

My understanding is the opposite is the case, immigrants use our health services less

Did anyone say particularly inward migration?

No they didn't, one poster added that to all the other reasons posted above him.

Nice try on pushing your agenda though.

KKkitty

The top people getting paid too much for doing less hours and less work than nurses and more important staff that are actually dealing with patients personally - Check.

It's 4 years since I broke my wrist. I went to my GP, sent then to the nearest hospital and then because it was near the weekend I had to wait til the following Monday to go to another hospital that deals much more with bone injuries. Nobody should be put on a trolley in a corridor. There's no privacy and no sense in it. Utterly demeaning on patients across the country.

markpb

Beasty wrote:

I'm one of those immigrants. Am I putting pressure on resources?

The poster said that migration puts additional pressure on the health system. This is undeniably true, it takes the/most government a long time to react to change so an increase in the population will not be catered for until some time has passed. This is not a reflection of immigrants, it's not a criticism, it's just a statement of fact.

Atoms for Peace

There should be limit placed on free visits for medical card holders, under six's etc. unless they have a valid medical condition.

griffin100

Thank god we have Liam Doran and his nurses to rescue us by threatening to go on strike. Imagine how poor the HSE would be if we'd no unions to protect our interests. God bless them all.

Beasty

markpb wrote: »

The poster said that migration puts additional pressure on the health system. This is undeniably true, it takes the/most government a long time to react to change so an increase in the population will not be catered for until some time has passed. This is not a reflection of immigrants, it's not a criticism, it's just a statement of fact.

I don't deny they use the system which invariably results in more immediate pressure. However their contributions to society in general and the wider economy is a major part of the solution. Ireland is fortunate it has a relatively young population which is being supplemented by immigration. It means there will be more people around to fund the pensions of many of those currently in work as well as their healthcare needs. Ireland is also fortunate in that it has plenty of scope to allow more immigration, subject to sorting out the housing policy, given its vast expanses of land not currently populated. Arguably Ireland is better placed than any other EU country to grow economically and sustain an ageing population based on an increasing workforce supplemented by immigration.

None of that deals with the immediate healthcare issues, but bodes well for the future assuming the country does not yet again succumb to short-termism in the way it does manage the economy.

Dr Crayfish

You can't blame immigrants and junkies/med card holders at the same time. Immigrants tend to work and pay tax, people from certain areas of Dublin haven't paid tax for generations, their net contribution to our society is quite negative.

mansize

snubbleste wrote: »

Don't forget the increase in population and particularly inward migration putting pressure on resources

Looks like particularly inward migration was said...

judeboy101

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

There should be limit placed on free visits for medical card holders, under six's etc. unless they have a valid medical condition.

Three strokes and you're out!

Tom Mann Centuria

Kristopherus wrote: »

Plenty of private nursing home beds available -check.

Yep, who can select who they do or don't want, so aggressive, confused, high falls risk, full care, complicated care patients are not high on most wanted new residents.

Also the same owners dread people dying in their nursing homes as it looks bad for HIQA so send terminally Ill patients into HSE hospitals to die, and this isn't always a quick process as you find people don't die on demand.

Also the fair deal paperwork has to go through and be approved before the home accepts patients.

Same as any private company, they decide what is a "good" risk for them to take on or otherwise, HSE doesn't have that choice, and neither did the community beds these difficult to place patients used to go before all the beds closed.

But, yeah, plenty of private nursing home beds available.

steddyeddy

Beasty wrote: »

I'm one of those immigrants. Am I putting pressure on resources? Well actually my employer pays over 10 grand a year for my (and my family's) private health insurance. I also reckon I've paid significantly more tax in Ireland than the average "native" pays in a lifetime. That's on top of the boost to the economy my own employment brings. Most immigrants come here to earn a living and are net contributors to the economy

I'm working in the UK and hear the same thing in relation to immigrants and the NHS here.

darkpagandeath

Remember getting rid of the likes of the Eastern Health board and others were supposed to produce Savings and streamline the health service setting up the HSE ?

Boggy Turf

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Remember getting rid of the likes of the Eastern Health board and others were supposed to produce Savings and streamline the health service setting up the HSE ?

Harney bottled it by not reducing the number of admin staff using compulsory redundancies (i.e. the original plan). Then they made a bureaucracy to support the overstaffing. They tried it again with Irish Water, it doesn't work.

Beasty

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm working in the UK and hear the same thing in relation to immigrants and the NHS here.

London in particular is massively dependent on immigrants, and the NHS employs a very large number across the country. This whole idea of Brexit cutting immigration is absurd - there will be insufficient workers to pay all the pensions (the UK has a pensions timebomb - much worse than Ireland although better than places like France), never mind fund the NHS, unless the UK economy is allowed to continue growing on the back of immigration

oneilla

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

You can't blame immigrants and junkies/med card holders at the same time. Immigrants tend to work and pay tax, people from certain areas of Dublin haven't paid tax for generations, their net contribution to our society is quite negative.

How do they escape paying VAT?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

When people can walk into an accident and emergency with an issue that's neither accident nor emergency, it of course compromises the resources for actual accidents and emergencies. When people can avail of this service free of charge there isn't really any deterrents or incentives to use GP or the out of hours care dr.

darkpagandeath

LexieOnRale wrote: »

When people can walk into an accident and emergency with an issue that's neither accident nor emergency, it of course compromises the resources for actual accidents and emergencies. When people can avail of this service free of charge there isn't really any deterrents or incentives to use GP or the out of hours care dr.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/health_services/gp_and_hospital_services/hospital_charges.html

Sigh... Do they get free sky tv too ?

mansize

jay1988 wrote: »

Did anyone say particularly inward migration?

No they didn't, one poster added that to all the other reasons posted above him.

Nice try on pushing your agenda though.

Are you going to retract this falsehood now?

Graces7

LexieOnRale wrote: »

When people can walk into an accident and emergency with an issue that's neither accident nor emergency, it of course compromises the resources for actual accidents and emergencies. When people can avail of this service free of charge there isn't really any deterrents or incentives to use GP or the out of hours care dr.

True but not quite the whole story.

I was in A and E over the holidays. The problem believe me was very real and a medical emergency.

Our local after hours service was in the news as being so overloaded they were taking 3-5 hours even to answer the phone. The ambulance paramedics who were stars. said that the GP would just have sent me to A and E anyways . I had tried to access them
And getting a GP appointment? They seem to send so many to A and E who surely could be treated at home.

This is the norm with this out of hours service.

Bu the way, the A and E service is free to medical card holders AND to anyone referred by a GP, which is open to question.

The place was in chaos. Seemed no one in charge. I do not think they are understaffed,, Just disorganised.
Reception staff were rude to the point of abuse

Waited for many hours to be seen and then only as I was in a state of collapse and made waves.

The last time I had been in A an d E was nearly 3 years ago with a smashed wrist and there was no waiting etc. The atmosphere was totally different

One of the main problems now is that folk with flu are going to A and E rather than seeing their GP or coping at home. Place was full of coughing and sneezing and I came home infected.

I wonder why? I would not go near A and E unless there was no other way. I waited 24 hrs with the broken wrist .

The only part of HSE that seems to be working is the ambulances. I know they get criticised but they were stars.

mansize

The last time I was in A&E I wasn't able judge the room

Graces7

mansize wrote: »

The last time I was in A&E I wasn't able judge the room

So sorry but that actually is a very valid statement. Thank you. When I was young GPs did far more and we rarely saw them. If the dr came to the house the next would be the vicar and then the undertaker... and that was NHS and totally free .. well apart from the undertaker :rolleyes::rolleyes:

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Graces7 wrote: »

True but not quite the whole story.

I was in A and E over the holidays. The problem believe me was very real and a medical emergency.

Our local after hours service was in the news as being so overloaded they were taking 3-5 hours even to answer the phone. The ambulance paramedics who were stars. said that the GP would just have sent me to A and E anyways . I had tried to access them
And getting a GP appointment? They seem to send so many to A and E who surely could be treated at home.

This is the norm with this out of hours service.

Bu the way, the A and E service is free to medical card holders AND to anyone referred by a GP, which is open to question.

The place was in chaos. Seemed no one in charge. I do not think they are understaffed,, Just disorganised.
Reception staff were rude to the point of abuse

Waited for many hours to be seen and then only as I was in a state of collapse and made waves.

The last time I had been in A an d E was nearly 3 years ago with a smashed wrist and there was no waiting etc. The atmosphere was totally different

One of the main problems now is that folk with flu are going to A and E rather than seeing their GP or coping at home. Place was full of coughing and sneezing and I came home infected.

I wonder why? I would not go near A and E unless there was no other way. I waited 24 hrs with the broken wrist .

The only part of HSE that seems to be working is the ambulances. I know they get criticised but they were stars.

If I need to attend a+e, i always try go to GP (50 euro) or out of hrs dr (60 euro) as if I have a letter from them, I don't need to pay 100 euro. If i go straight to a+e without a letter, it's 100 euro unless I'm admitted, then you're just charged per night.

It's no secret the service is completely abused by people attending with conditions more suited to their own GP or out of hrs doctor. If people had to weigh up the costs between Drs and casualty then I'm pretty sure we'd see a reduction. If a person (medical card or not) attends a+e but doesn't meet the criteria, they should be subject to the full price.

NIMAN

We aren't the only country with a Health service/A&E crisis, UK is very similar.

Kimbot

I was in A&E with my mother a couple of days before christmas, from 11pm until 12pm 3 young girls (Between 10 & 16) came in with their parents, as they were talking at the reception all 3 stated they were in A&E because the girls have "A bit of a cough". Now 1 out of the 3 was a very chesty cough, the other 2 it sounded mild enough. To make matters worse 2 of the girls were both sitting there with boob tubes and mini skirts with no jackets etc. Now I was in Midoc with my mam first who were open etc so they could have gone there but they would have been charged the "Out of Hours" rate.

To me there are various paeople in A&E all over the country that would be far better served going to their GP's but as someone else pointed out these people are on medical cards so a trip to A&E costs them nothing. The sooner the Governement cop on to this and put a stop to it the better.

beggars_bush

There are around 1000 private nursing home beds that could be used to move along patients ready to leave hospital but not able to go home yet

cajonlardo

I have spent several stays on A & E trollies. The longest was 4 nights.

I saw an elderly lady pass away in full view of all and sundry, her family without any privacy. I distinctly remember a woman being told after 2 days there was a bed for her at last. Then they came back and apologised that the bed was given to someone else. There was a man in terrific pain with multiple injuries from a road accident. There was another old dear who was afraid of a dodgy looking group around the public jacks and she'd sit on her trolley in torment waiting until a nurse was free to walk her down. I remember it was impossible to sleep, not a chance. I remember a young lady Doctor giving man a full examination and loudly asking highly personal questions as children passed by and I remember that man sobbing quietly after the Doctor left.

I never saw the place full of drunks, never noticed lots of old folks who shouldn't be there, it wasn't full of "foreigners". It was jammed full of dying, frightened and sick people.Any extended stay on a trolley makes you feel utterly worthless and it weakens your fight to recover.

Don't know why I'm posting this. Everyone already knows, only ones saying different are either clueless or cheerleaders for the Government parties.

Mehapoy

Boggy Turf wrote: »

Having worked with the HSE, you would not believe the level of waste and bureaucracy within the "organisation". The levels of zero value add middle management boggles the mind. The unions block any reform but the only solution is widespread redundancies for excessive back office staff and rebuild the system from scratch. There are also many vested interests with political connections e.g I saw tens of millions wasted on renting portacabins at exorbitant prices where they could have built extensions or new buildings for fractions of the cost. It wont happen.

This, like most things in Ireland, is the answer rather than bed blockers, flu epidemics and any other excuses...

Mehapoy

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Graces7 wrote: »

True but not quite the whole story.

I was in A and E over the holidays. The problem believe me was very real and a medical emergency.

Our local after hours service was in the news as being so overloaded they were taking 3-5 hours even to answer the phone. The ambulance paramedics who were stars. said that the GP would just have sent me to A and E anyways . I had tried to access them
And getting a GP appointment? They seem to send so many to A and E who surely could be treated at home.

This is the norm with this out of hours service.

Bu the way, the A and E service is free to medical card holders AND to anyone referred by a GP, which is open to question.

The place was in chaos. Seemed no one in charge. I do not think they are understaffed,, Just disorganised.
Reception staff were rude to the point of abuse

Waited for many hours to be seen and then only as I was in a state of collapse and made waves.

The last time I had been in A an d E was nearly 3 years ago with a smashed wrist and there was no waiting etc. The atmosphere was totally different

One of the main problems now is that folk with flu are going to A and E rather than seeing their GP or coping at home. Place was full of coughing and sneezing and I came home infected.

I wonder why? I would not go near A and E unless there was no other way. I waited 24 hrs with the broken wrist .

The only part of HSE that seems to be working is the ambulances. I know they get criticised but they were stars.

If I need to attend a+e, i always try go to GP (50 euro) or out of hrs dr (60 euro) as if I have a letter from them, I don't need to pay 100 euro. If i go straight to a+e without a letter, it's 100 euro unless I'm admitted, then you're just charged per night.

It's no secret the service is completely abused by people attending with conditions more suited to their own GP or out of hrs doctor. If people had to weigh up the costs between Drs and casualty then I'm pretty sure we'd see a reduction. If a person (medical card or not) attends a+e but doesn't meet the criteria, they should be subject to the full price.

The solution to this is surely staring everyone in the face then, get a GP service into each hospital to look after these cases, coughs, flus etc. do a triage and if you're condition isn't bone breakage, heart problems etc. see the GP get your persription and go home... or is it truly that the problem is more acute than this and not as easily answered?