Black Monday/Coaching changes

adrian522

Don't see a thread for this, so here goes.

Vacancies include...

Buffalo Bills
Jacksonville Jaguars
Los Angeles Rams
San Diego Chargers
San Francisco 49ers
Denver Broncos

The 49ers are also looking for A GM - Due to interview Eliot Wolf and Brian Gutekunst (both currently with the Green Bay Packers) and Nick Caserio (Patriots).

Names coming up during the coaching searches include ....

Anthony Lynn
Vance Joseph
Kyle Shanahan
Josh McDaniels
Doug Marrone
Mike Smith

cosatron

rumour has it that TT will step down as GM of the packers and take up an advisory scout role paving the way for Elliot Wolf as GM, last year the lions were refused permission to talk to wolf for there gm position but there is nothing official on the packers website. I would be disappointed to lose wolf but we don't know the inner workings of the front offices in football, will wolf be any good, or is he living of his father name.

HigginsJ

My take on the available positions would be as follows -

I wouldn't touch the Rams with a barge pole, the 49ers position is not much better although there is a tonne of cap space.

I know the Broncos have a very good D but the QB position is unsettled and the HC might be pressured to play Lynch when he might not be capable of being the guy.

I hear alot about the amount of talent the Chargers have but you'd have to be concerned about where they will end up and the injury history.

That leaves the Bills and Jags. If the Jags had Tyrod Taylor rather than Blake Bortles it would be a no-brainer, although oddly the Bills are far from sold on him apparently. I have to say I really do like the Jags potential. I think Bortles is fixable, they have plenty of talent at the skill positions and that D with Jalen Ramsey could be very close to great. That's the one I would want.

I think the Jags will go with Tom Coughlin.

LuckyLloyd

HigginsJ wrote: »

My take on the available positions would be as follows -

I wouldn't touch the Rams with a barge pole, the 49ers position is not much better although there is a tonne of cap space.

I know the Broncos have a very good D but the QB position is unsettled and the HC might be pressured to play Lynch when he might not be capable of being the guy.

I hear alot about the amount of talent the Chargers have but you'd have to be concerned about where they will end up and the injury history.

That leaves the Bills and Jags. If the Jags had Tyrod Taylor rather than Blake Bortles it would be a no-brainer, although oddly the Bills are far from sold on him apparently. I have to say I really do like the Jags potential. I think Bortles is fixable, they have plenty of talent at the skill positions and that D with Jalen Ramsey could be very close to great. That's the one I would want.

I think the Jags will go with Tom Coughlin.

I think Whaley's interview said it all with respect to where the Bills are as an organisation:

http://deadspin.com/bills-gms-press-conference-really-couldnt-have-gone-muc-1790691580

And it highlights the broader point with regards to the potential of coaching vacancies as destinations - the question should really be about the culture of the organisation and the instincts of ownership. The Jags have a lot of potential within their current roster, but there is an endemic culture of losing there. By contrast, the 49ers have a dumpster fire of a roster but played in a SuperBowl within the past half decade. Coughlin might make a horse race of the former as it will be familiar territory, but I bet there are huge problems of people and process everywhere you look. Assuming the rumour of Jed York stepping further back from football issues when the new GM is hired, I believe it has to be the better job.

- Elway seems to be an excellent General Manager and bar the QB situation that's a good roster - heck they've been a pretty decent team this year with a rookie under center.
- LA stuck with Fisher way too long and the owner is a piece of ****. That said, if they understand how much of a project it is it could be an exciting project if they can win over that LA audience for the first half decade
- San Diego have a QB capable of getting you in the playoffs and some nice pieces around the roster. It and the Denver jobs need the least amount of work imo

OAOB

Quick question lads. The media talk about the potential of particular rosters and why this job or that job would be particularly desirable but they never mention the salary on offer. Do potential candidates consider this when applying do you think?

If I take the Chargers and Rams as an example, they will both likely be in LA, Chargers have a top QB and a pretty strong roster that has underachieved but with a few changes are likely to challenge for playoffs next year. The Rams need a lot of work and are tied in to their new QB for the coming years. Based on this the Chargers are the team to go with but Kroenke could offer a much better salary than Spanos. Supposing they want the same guy what team does he go with?

thomond2006

Can a franchise refuse to release an OC/DC if they are offered a HC role by another team?

Leslie91

I wouldn't touch the Niners or Bills jobs with a barge pole.

jack presley

It might be career suicide taking a position at a bad club but you do get a guaranteed contract, unlike the players so financially some will jump at even the crappest vacancis.

Look at Chip Kelly. Even with the offsetting nature of HC contacts, he's still going to be getting paid by 2 teams next season and SF are on the hook for the 2018 and 2019 seasons too. So 3 years getting paid for doing nothing, I'll take it!

adrian522

thomond2006 wrote: »

Can a franchise refuse to release an OC/DC if they are offered a HC role by another team?

No, not if they are getting an upgrade as in your example from coordinator to HC. They can refuse if it is a lateral move.

adrian522

On the GM thing, the 49ers are looking to interview Eliot Wolf of the packers. Last season the packers were able to refuse him permission to interview with the Lions but this season are unable to stand in his way. The reason seems something of a technicality.

In speaking with Packers writers, it is my understanding that the Lions job technically did not have final say on the roster decisions. Instead, someone else would have had that job, even though Wolf would have held the GM title. A similar situation exists in Miami where Chris Grier is the GM, but Mike Tannebaum has final say as executive VP of football operations.

NFL interview rules require that anybody in a high level position (GM, president) must be granted the right to interview for a position with high level responsibilities. As I understand it, since Wolf would not have had the final roster say, it technically gave the Packers a loop-hole to not let him interview. Additionally, for the third straight year he was given a title promotion and raise.

LuckyLloyd

OAOB wrote: »

Quick question lads. The media talk about the potential of particular rosters and why this job or that job would be particularly desirable but they never mention the salary on offer. Do potential candidates consider this when applying do you think?

If I take the Chargers and Rams as an example, they will both likely be in LA, Chargers have a top QB and a pretty strong roster that has underachieved but with a few changes are likely to challenge for playoffs next year. The Rams need a lot of work and are tied in to their new QB for the coming years. Based on this the Chargers are the team to go with but Kroenke could offer a much better salary than Spanos. Supposing they want the same guy what team does he go with?

I've never heard of salaries for Head Coaches being a stumbling block. They pay what is necessary to get the deals done.

OAOB

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I've never heard of salaries for Head Coaches being a stumbling block. They pay what is necessary to get the deals done.

I find it surprising that more coaches don't move sideways for better money.
Compared to the top players salary some HCs makes surprisingly little. Belichick makes approx €8m a year but i wonder why he doesn't go the Rams or Jags and get €20m.
Or if he threatened to go would the Pats give him €20m to stay?

The value of coaches salaries are never discussed and I can't understand why not, it surely has a bearing on the jobs they take and some owners have much deeper pockets than others

TOss Sweep

OAOB wrote: »

I find it surprising that more coaches don't move sideways for better money.
Compared to the top players salary some HCs makes surprisingly little. Belichick makes approx €8m a year but i wonder why he doesn't go the Rams or Jags and get €20m.
Or if he threatened to go would the Pats give him €20m to stay?

The value of coaches salaries are never discussed and I can't understand why not, it surely has a bearing on the jobs they take and some owners have much deeper pockets than others

The end goal for a coach is to build his system and use it for a very long time and win games and bowls. This would trump money for many coaches who are solid long term guy. They have their system in place. The owners love them. the fans love them. The players want to play for them and they win games. Why throw all of that away to start all over again.

OAOB

Yeah i think it's personal pride for a lot of coaches, they want to try create a legacy like Lombardi, Landry, Belichick.
I still think if they're starting out they may as well chase the money and not the roster.

Although i also think certain organisations are a better environment for success

Foxtrol

OAOB wrote: »

Yeah i think it's personal pride for a lot of coaches, they want to try create a legacy like Lombardi, Landry, Belichick.
I still think if they're starting out they may as well chase the money and not the roster.

Although i also think certain organisations are a better environment for success

You only get so many shots as coach though (some don’t even get a 2nd chance at HC), you could take the money early in a terrible situation and it could be held as a black mark against you for years.

TOss Sweep

Foxtrol wrote: »

You only get so many shots as coach though (some don’t even get a 2nd chance at HC), you could take the money early in a terrible situation and it could be held as a black mark against you for years.

Unless they are only taking the job in a terrible situation to make money then yes those guys will be black marked and seen as nothing more than in it for the money. But like any job some guys are just average and will never be top coaches. Those guys will never really have a full pro career for this reason. I guess if they can still make money even though they are nothing more than average and can't win games then why not try make as much as you can before your career is over.

The smart ones who have accepted they are not HC material make their money and career as coordinators. They in essence become career Coordinators or positional coaches. Sometimes its better to be a solid Coordinator or positional guy than to try your hand as a HC.

There are quite a lot of College coaches who have been given the opportunity to go pro but turn it down because they run successful college programs and that to them is fulfilling enough to not want to deal with the revolving door that is the NFL.

helimachoptor

TO, what type of salaries are coordinators and positional/asst coaches making?

OAOB

OAOB wrote: »

I find it surprising that more coaches don't move sideways for better money.
Compared to the top players salary some HCs makes surprisingly little. Belichick makes approx €8m a year but i wonder why he doesn't go the Rams or Jags and get €20m.
Or if he threatened to go would the Pats give him €20m to stay?

The value of coaches salaries are never discussed and I can't understand why not, it surely has a bearing on the jobs they take and some owners have much deeper pockets than others

For someone like belichek it does not really matter because he can keep earning 8m a year as long as he wants. For a player it's more of an issue because there time is finite. And if your a less secure head coach you probably can't ask for what you want anyway unless you have the kind of rep chip Kelly did. Also it would be hard to tell a player they should take a home town discount if your getting 20-30mil

j8wk2feszrnpao

OAOB wrote: »

Belichick makes approx €8m a year but i wonder why he doesn't go the Rams or Jags and get €20m.

Bill is one of the best paid coaches, so money isn't an issue.
And I doubt he'd leave the control, the relationship he has with Kraft, the system in NE (that he has sculpted over years), the roster of players he's selected, and maybe still the best QB in the league (even at 39).
To give all that up to go to the Rams/Jags, must be totally unappealing.

TOss Sweep

helimachoptor wrote: »

TO, what type of salaries are coordinators and positional/asst coaches making?

Most of them over a 1m per year. Best ones close to 2-3m but this all depends on the paying team.

Positional coaches from 250k to 1m again depends on the team.

As there is no cap on coach wages it really comes down to how much the team values its other coaches outside the HC

LuckyLloyd

How did Fox survive at Chicago?

HigginsJ

TOss Sweep wrote: »

Most of them over a 1m per year. Best ones close to 2-3m but this all depends on the paying team.

Positional coaches from 250k to 1m again depends on the team.

As there is no cap on coach wages it really comes down to how much the team values its other coaches outside the HC

When you hear what some of the college guys are getting those are poor enough wages.

TOss Sweep

HigginsJ wrote: »

When you hear what some of the college guys are getting those are poor enough wages.

I agree but Coordinators and Positional coaches don't come close to the money the NFL guys get. The only ones that do are the bigger colleges that have more money than sense. Most of the SEC for example. But comparing some of the stupid amounts some of the Head coaches get it is pennies in comparison. Some HC in college earn more than most of the NFL HC also.

eagle eye

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

How did Fox survive at Chicago?

Lovie Smith syndrome otherwise known as a very patient Chairman and President.

adrian522

They sacked Lovie Smith after a 10-6 season, they could have done with a bit more patience there if you ask me, team has been a mess ever since.

helimachoptor

Titans have fired their WR coach and assistant WR coach.

The WR coach has worked with Mularkey for a long time, he said they are friends.. but i guess he wants improvement.

HigginsJ

helimachoptor wrote: »

Titans have fired their WR coach and assistant WR coach.

The WR coach has worked with Mularkey for a long time, he said they are friends.. but i guess he wants improvement.

Not meaning to be smart here but would better WR's not help? Ye're top WR is a guy who was in Miami for years and did nothing. I assume it is a spot that ye would target high in the draft and free agency?

helimachoptor

HigginsJ wrote: »

Not meaning to be smart here but would better WR's not help? Ye're top WR is a guy who was in Miami for years and did nothing. I assume it is a spot that ye would target high in the draft and free agency?

apart from Delanie last year, Matthews has had the best WR for a Titan in the last 5 years, just under 1K yards and 9 TDs..

Expectation is we'll use our own pick @ 17 to get a WR, we need a deep threat and a slot guy, not sure about good slot guys in FA though

helimachoptor

colts are keeping Pagano

jack presley

helimachoptor wrote: »

colts are keeping Pagano

So, 8-8 next year again then?

adrian522

As soon as SF fired their GM and HC and Jed started going on about getting in a GM/HC pair who would work well together the suspicion has been that they had their candidate all along and it was all set in stone.

However they swem to be intervieiwing all and sundry, including guys who regularly turn down interviews for other jobs.

Once concern I have is the idea of interviewing and possibly hiring a HC before a GM is in place. Ideally you'd want the GM in place before the HC to make sure that they can actually work together.

Below are the interviews we know about so far:

Wednesday: Bills interim HC Anthony Lynn
Thursday: Packers execs Eliot Wolf, Brian Gutekunst
Friday: Falcons OC Kyle Shanahan , Vikings assistant GM George Paton
Saturday: Patriots OC Josh McDaniels, exec Nick Caserio
This weekend: Colts VP of football ops Jimmy Raye III
Monday: Washington OC Sean McVay , Panthers DC Sean McDermott
Next week: ESPN analyst Louis Riddick , Dolphins DC Vance Joseph , Seahawks OL Tom Cable, Seahawks executives Trent Kirchner, Scott Fitterer

That's a whole lot of interviews.

D9Male

So the six jobs are below in my order of preference if somebody decided to take a punt on me as a HC*.

Broncos (great defence, I think this team could have a Superbowl in them)
Jaguars (decent roster, but one big problem at QB. Number of ways to fix it....draft, try fix Bortles, free agency)
Chargers (decent talent, but it seems to be a really bad vibe there. Still, I get the sense the only way is up)
Bills (mess upstairs, but I think the talent is reasonable. I would want Tyrod to stick around)
49ers (weird goings on upstairs, really crap roster. Lots of cap room, but they are miles off where they need to be)
Rams (circus, crap QB, burnt draft stock and limited offensive weapons)

What do you guys think?

* Just in case anyone is reading this, I have the following conditions - Cheltenham week off, €250k per year, lifetime NFL GamePass subscription.

Realt Dearg Sec

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

How did Fox survive at Chicago?

Couple of reasons. One is hard to actually fully explain because it's a little unclear, and that's his relationship to the GM, Ryan Pace. Both were hired at the same time, and it's not clear that Pace actually selected him. Most Bears beat writers have speculated that they are regarded by the McCaskeys and Ted Philips (VP) as on a kind of equal footing, rather than Pace being his boss. I'm not sure how that will shake out long term, but there's a clear implication here that he wasn't Pace's HC to fire. Some therefore speculate that Pace's writ is not really law. Which to me would be a shame, because he has shown himself to be really good at drafting and free agency, and should be allowed do his job.

The second reason is the excuse that Fox has, not entirely an unreasonable one, that his roster was decimated by injuries. We had 19 players on IR, including pretty much everyone whose name is worth knowing, plus Alshon on suspension for four weeks. He was on a fourth string QB throwing to third string receivers, and that kind of back ups to back ups issue was visible across the roster.

A related point, Fox clearly doesn't like or want Cutler, and while the team has been rebuilding through the draft they have not, so far drafted a QB. The argument probably runs that unless Fox is given a chance with his own guy, he hasn't really had a chance at all. He seems to really have a problem with Cutler but unlike Marshall and Bennett, the team didn't feel in a position to send him on his way.

The last point is to do with stability. After a dumpster fire under Trestman, another quick coaching change would signal a move into Browns territory where a bad team can't help firing coaches so that nobody is ever given a chance to drag the team out of the gutter. Whatever his failings, it's clear the Bears had huge roster problems, and a culture problem, after Trestman. They have gone from being the oldest team in the NFL to one of the youngest in two years, so they probably want some stability, even though his actual results are even worse than under Trestman (but on the plus side, there's no coordinators sneaking off to the media to bitch about the QB anonymously, there's no locker room flare-ups, and we haven't given up two fifty point beatings in a row including one to the Packers, so every cloud...).

None of this is to say I endorse the decision to keep him on, but that's the rationale. Plenty of people think he should have been sent on his way, and maybe put Fangio in charge of the club. Or maybe try Toub, he's hugely well liked in Chicago.

TLDR: 1) not clear who's the real boss, 2) lots of injuries, 3) hasn't put in his own QB yet, 4) perceived need for stability after the sh1tstorm of 2014.

Alfred Borden

helimachoptor wrote: »

colts are keeping Pagano

And Grigson

There isnt a worse Owner - GM - HC combination in the league than Irsay - Grigson and Pagano :mad:

CardinalJ

helimachoptor wrote: »

colts are keeping Pagano

Rumors starting Texans might chop O'Brien. Which seems mad.

j8wk2feszrnpao

helimachoptor wrote: »

colts are keeping Pagano

Another Jeff Fisher.

eagle eye

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Another Jeff Fisher.

Two 11-5 seasons followed by two 8-8 seasons isn't that bad.

People just expect too much from him because the Colts had better records for a long time but they had a different coach for most of that and a great QB.

A lot of older players were on the wane when Peyton Manning left. These all have to be replaced and it's not easy to keep things at the same level. Another two years and then we can talk about how good/bad Pagano is but not until then imo.

helimachoptor

Ray Horton looks to be losing his job in Cleveland

Realt Dearg Sec

helimachoptor wrote: »

Ray Horton looks to be losing his job in Cleveland

Straight from the "someone must be held accountable and **** knows it's not going to be me" jed Yorke school of management.

helimachoptor

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Straight from the "someone must be held accountable and **** knows it's not going to be me" jed Yorke school of management.

Feelers are out to Gregg Willaims apparently

Realt Dearg Sec

Next stop super bowl.

krustydoyle

Kyle Shanahan to Denver is all over twitter this evening

j8wk2feszrnpao

eagle eye wrote: »

Two 11-5 seasons followed by two 8-8 seasons isn't that bad.

People just expect too much from him because the Colts had better records for a long time but they had a different coach for most of that and a great QB.

A lot of older players were on the wane when Peyton Manning left. These all have to be replaced and it's not easy to keep things at the same level. Another two years and then we can talk about how good/bad Pagano is but not until then imo.

He has a very talented QB, but makes poor callls, summed up by that disastrous call on 4th down against the Pats. With Luck, Fisher might even get to 11:5. It's not like Pagao is in one of the tougher divisions. Back to back 8:8 seasons, with what should be two auto wins against the Jags, is Fisher-ish to me.

JaMarcusHustle

They've drafted terribly. I don't know how much that's down to Pagano and how much it's down to Grigson but to me that's been their major downfall.

adrian522

Looks like the 49ers interviewed McDaniels yesterday. He also interviewed with the Jaguars and the Rams.

Nick Caserio declined the 49ers attempt to interview him. The 49ers also wanted to interview Chris Ballard of the Chiefs but Kansas denied them permission. The 49ers can interview him once the Chiefs playoff run is done if they are so inclined.

There is talk that the Chiefs GM John Dorsey may move to Green Bay in the same role, freeing up all sorts of scenarios to play out.

AbusesToilets

If be shocked if any high profile prospect went for the 49ers gig, especially from the Pats. York is straight cancer.

adrian522

Could be seen as a good opportunity to build a roster to be honest. No messy contracts, Not tied to a QB, loads of cap space, high draft picks and low expectations. If you get a good HC/GM combo you could do well long term.

Leslie91

AbusesToilets wrote: »

If be shocked if any high profile prospect went for the 49ers gig, especially from the Pats. York is straight cancer.

Agree........ wouldn't touch the 49ers with a barge pole esp coming from New England.

Chargers have interview Mike Smith, Sean McDermott, Matt Patricia and Dave Toub.

All have their merits... of these 4 my fave would be McDermott but Toub intrigues me. Special teams guru.

helimachoptor

Doug Marrone is the new Jags coach, would assume that means bortles stays as QB

helimachoptor

Coughlin as VP of football too

HigginsJ

helimachoptor wrote: »

Doug Marrone is the new Jags coach, would assume that means bortles stays as QB

Marrone is a very interesting case, leaving the Bills after a 9-7 season left a bitter taste with alot of people if I remember correctly but clearly he can do a job. Not surprised to see TC back, he clearly still has the passion for the game.