What's your salary

kerry cow

Just looking for opinion .
I think before any of us talk about profit on our farm .should we not take our profit minus our bfp , our land rental charge of 150 to 200 per ac , and then our time .Would you work your job on someone else farm for 50 euro or 100 euro a day . Add up all the days worked by the pay rate .
Don't forget you have to pay the bank and tax from them profits too .
What's left
Compare your actual farming profit to as if you leased you farm and bfp tax free and add up all the hours paid working on another job .
How does it stack .
I think really we are working in a industry that wants us to work and keep going , but really after all everybody gets paid .
I think farmers just do it regardless of the real profit or loss and don't operate as a business .
Is it the rents are too high or low ? Is it that the inputs are too expensive , is it that we get paid too little for our produce ? Problem is once product price increases so too do the inputs .
Every business works for a margin.
Farmers need to collective stop and think .
Would the ifa or glanbia print in the journal the two scenarios in or out of farming margins ? I don't think so .and don't for get the large asset that is tied up to give the tiny return .
Don't get me wrong it's a great way of life etc. But I am asking a business question not a emotional one so let's stick to the figures .
After all is said and done including holiday pays etc .can you honestly say you are miles better paid farming or leasing with a job .

jaymla627

kerry cow wrote: »

Just looking for opinion .
I think before any of us talk about profit on our farm .should we not take our profit minus our bfp , our land rental charge of 150 to 200 per ac , and then our time .Would you work your job on someone else farm for 50 euro or 100 euro a day . Add up all the days worked by the pay rate .
Don't forget you have to pay the bank and tax from them profits too .
What's left
Compare your actual farming profit to as if you leased you farm and bfp tax free and add up all the hours paid working on another job .
How does it stack .
I think really we are working in a industry that wants us to work and keep going , but really after all everybody gets paid .
I think farmers just do it regardless of the real profit or loss and don't operate as a business .
Is it the rents are too high or low ? Is it that the inputs are too expensive , is it that we get paid too little for our produce ? Problem is once product price increases so too do the inputs .
Every business works for a margin.
Farmers need to collective stop and think .
Would the ifa or glanbia print in the journal the two scenarios in or out of farming margins ? I don't think so .and don't for get the large asset that is tied up to give the tiny return .
Don't get me wrong it's a great way of life etc. But I am asking a business question not a emotional one so let's stick to the figures .
After all is said and done including holiday pays etc .can you honestly say you are miles better paid farming or leasing with a job .

You have to ask yourself though if a lad is farming away doing all the right things and still not making a bob on owned land, how's the lad forking out 200 odd a acre going to make it work, and the answer to that is usually they will mine your place of p and k, forget about maintaince/fencing and leave you back at the end of the lease a run-down mess.....
Two big blocks of what was once productive land beside us that have been leased the best part of 25 years and both are in a pretty sorry state at the minute.....
Of course their is good tenants out their but if you get a bad one you could end up having to spend a fortune rectifying the mess some tenants leave behind

Sam Kade

jaymla627 wrote: »

You have to ask yourself though if a lad is farming away doing all the right things and still not making a bob on owned land, how's the lad forking out 200 odd a acre going to make it work, and the answer

Is Kerry cow referring to opportunity cost when adding land rental?

cute geoge

You seem to think all jobs are a walk in the park and most jobs suited to farmers to take home €500/week are working in co op/building merchant yard ,delivery van driver and even stocking shelves in tesco are a full time commitment and you also need to factor in time travelling to work ,most jobs look easy from the other side of the fence ,but it a different scenario doing these job's day in day out. As for farmers being business minded ,what business do you know debate there profitability in public forums and newspaper articles i.e. the farmers journal on behalf of teagasc publishing profit monitors

kerry cow

Yes you have to factor in you land value and time .
Just say .
If you milked 80 cows on 100 ac and made 60k Inc bfp .
For your 60 k you have to pay the bank and tax . And God only knows what unearthly hours .

Compare

Let your land rent be 20 k
Bfp 10k

That 30k tax free .
40 hrs at 12 euro per hr equals 500 euro by 52 weeks 26 k or there abouts .
.
Total of 56k .




Just a example .open to offers

Username John

kerry cow wrote: »

Yes you have to factor in you land value and time .
Just say .
If you milked 80 cows on 100 ac and made 60k Inc bfp .
For your 60 k you have to pay the bank and tax . And God only knows what unearthly hours .

Compare

Let your land rent be 20 k
Bfp 10k

That 30k tax free .
40 hrs at 12 euro per hr equals 500 euro by 52 weeks 26 k or there abouts .
.
Total of 56k .




Just a example .open to offers

I think the 20k is tax free, but the 10k for the bfp isn't tax free... but, that's just accounting...

You forgot the option of selling the land? Live off the proceeds...

I think your presumption is probably correct, that farming is a low income game... but one which requires a large capital outlay... and lads probably would be better off letting and getting an off farm job...

Can I ask why are you asking? Are you debating letting it all, and getting off farm work?
Or are you trying to convince lads to let it out, so you can rent it off them?

kerry cow

No .Not renting in or out .Just that I am in the process of starting to milk next spring on home farm after 10 years out . Different things cross your mind and you have to weigh up what you really have at the end of the day especially if you are borrowing .and have large repayments , no different to expansion .
I just think in general guys don't relies that the difference between the two is the real wage .
Some people just can't help jumping up and down ,
Chill out .Just look at it from both sides .point taken

patsy_mccabe

When you consider that the average Guard has a salary of €100k and they are the ones threatening to strike for better Pay, it really does put farm incomes in perspective.

barnaman

Well all I can say is borrow little I have €30,000 a year in loan repayment for farm and another €15,000 for a mortgage and its a nightmare. Felt like quitting farming recently and just starting out in it, although in my 30s, and building sheds etc.
Full time farmer on just under 400 acres and more and more I think farming is being pushed to a sort of social welfare for lads in the country ie old lads with no pension contributions can join Glas get ANC etc and prob have €250 a week and spend money on nothing. That or lads writing off a jeep and their diesel as their perk from being a farmer. I seem caught in a spot that huge expenses in particular capital and machinery and SFA to show for it! Think best use of my time is to find a laying ostrich.

barnaman

Oh yeah and to answer your question my salary is less than a €1000 a year I reckon by time all bills paid for; just paid €31,150 to the C0-op today.

kerry cow

Great to see a honest answer.
Too many poof ers out there .
I agree we really could be worse off after a year farming but here I go to continue to carry the mantle .

Keepgrowing

barnaman wrote: »

Oh yeah and to answer your question my salary is less than a €1000 a year I reckon by time all bills paid for; just paid €31,150 to the C0-op today.

You pay all your household bills, run your car pay health insurance etc on €1000

Waffletraktor

kerry cow wrote: »

Great to see a honest answer.
Too many poof ers out there .
I agree we really could be worse off after a year farming but here I go to continue to carry the mantle .

I think a farm should take home the average industrial wage, outside of a once off disaster like a tb breakdown/severe disease outbreak etc if a farm cannot provide so on a 5 year average maybe a re-think is needed. Once established, new businesses must be rational of where to end up after x years of developement and not waste their time on a pipe dream if its not working out to the plan

parishsavings

cute geoge wrote: »

You seem to think all jobs are a walk in the park and most jobs suited to farmers to take home €500/week are working in co op/building merchant yard ,delivery van driver and even stocking shelves in tesco are a full time commitment and you also need to factor in time travelling to work ,most jobs look easy from the other side of the fence ,but it a different scenario doing these job's day in day out. As for farmers being business minded ,what business do you know debate there profitability in public forums and newspaper articles i.e. the farmers journal on behalf of teagasc publishing profit monitors

All this crying about no money in farming, a business mind would adapt, change direction, or simply get out and get into something else etc.

tomwaterford

kerry cow wrote: »

Yes you have to factor in you land value and time .
Just say .
If you milked 80 cows on 100 ac and made 60k Inc bfp .
For your 60 k you have to pay the bank and tax . And God only knows what unearthly hours .

Compare

Let your land rent be 20 k
Bfp 10k

That 30k tax free .
40 hrs at 12 euro per hr equals 500 euro by 52 weeks 26 k or there abouts .
.
Total of 56k .




Just a example .open to offers

I work in my job circa 10 years experience...couple different main dealers and large second dealers and couldn't e12 an hour (you come home with <400 after tax).....

One of main reasons I left and am trying to decide what to do when I return.....go back working in a job I love....or retrain


Where these farmers with no applicable skills will walk in and get the 12 euro an job outta I dunno

Mooooo

Drawings are your wages, or part of it. Being able to pay your private bills/lifestyle etc and have some amount to reinvest in the farm determines sustainability really. Getting the balance between work and lifestyle re employing labour or hours worked oneself is another point also. Everyone has different levels of drawings and/ or debt so can be difficult to compare. Including the land cost, the avg ind wage( maybe instead of a drawing figure) would help overall comparisonso in public anyway.
This year house bills and all bank debt was paid, probably into overdraft by the time all farm bills paid but spent f all on farm or myself this year. Drawings dropped this year but if I had kids and a house mortgage would I have been in trouble, maybe so.

Who2

tomwaterford wrote: »

I work in my job circa 10 years experience...couple different main dealers and large second dealers and couldn't e12 an hour (you come home with <400 after tax).....

One of main reasons I left and am trying to decide what to do when I return.....go back working in a job I love....or retrain


Where these farmers with no applicable skills will walk in and get the 12 euro an job outta I dunno

They'll get a job anywhere, bus drivers, fabricators, labourers, trades even stacking shelves, farmers are excellent all rounders with an ability to adapt to nearly any situation. They have absolutaly no fear of hard work or long hours.

Willfarman

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

When you consider that the average Guard has a salary of €100k and they are the ones threatening to strike for better Pay, it really does out farm incomes in perspective.

I think you are a mile off there boss man.. 50k before tax would be a more likely average for the d boys in dark navy..

leg wax

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

When you consider that the average Guard has a salary of €100k and they are the ones threatening to strike for better Pay, it really does out farm incomes in perspective.[/QUO/
my father had a saying if you dont know what you are talking about dont talk. my other half is up the ranks of the guards and is no way near your conjured figure .but if she was happy days for legs:D

I said

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

When you consider that the average Guard has a salary of €100k and they are the ones threatening to strike for better Pay, it really does out farm incomes in perspective.

Ya have enough spewed there to fill two slatted tanks get your facts right.
More pub talk ya don't know enough to know you know fcuk all.
If the guards were on that twine I think they would be keeping there mouths shut about pay rises,don't you think

kerry cow

I know farmers who pay 10e hr to young untrained lads as farm labourers .I am sure that with experience a person would have no trouble getting 12 to 15 euro milking cows and managing stock .I know that as I have been doing it past 10 yrs and more and working more than 40 hrs a week .
Really any dairy farm out there ,works from at least 8am to 6 pm , six days a week .that's 54 hrs working . If they work 7 days it's 63 hrs @ €/ hr .
Stacking shelves in tesco will get 10 euro .Nobody works for less .
I have a friend in tipp who has 70ac milking 40 cows and a bfp of 5k.
.His neighbour offered him 21k for land plus his bfp , all tax free .and also would give him 20 to 30 working hours as well if he wanted . and the farm would be look after A1.
He refused and still milks his cows but I think financial he's not making it .

Keepgrowing

Willfarman wrote: »

I think you are a mile off there boss man.. 50k before tax would be a more likely average for the d boys in dark navy..

+ gold plated pension

Avatar MIA

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

When you consider that the average Guard has a salary of €100k and they are the ones threatening to strike for better Pay, it really does put farm incomes in perspective.

barnaman wrote: »

Oh yeah and to answer your question my salary is less than a €1000 a year I reckon by time all bills paid for; just paid €31,150 to the C0-op today.

To quote Bill, we'll leave it there so.

patsy_mccabe

I said wrote: »

Ya have enough spewed there to fill two slatted tanks get your facts right.
More pub talk ya don't know enough to know you know fcuk all.
If the guards were on that twine I think they would be keeping there mouths shut about pay rises,don't you think

Maybe you should get your facts right before you start abusing people.


"The report says that the average pay for gardaí across the force last year was €63,450.
However it says if the value of the cost of the provision of pensions was taken into account, total remuneration for gardaí would be in excess of €100,000."

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/striking-garda%C3%AD-should-lose-pension-benefits-says-pay-report-1.2902538

ted_182

Sure don't I get five bob a day and tae in the evening

kerry cow

No need for the digs . We need the garda too .Wouldn't like there job .

Avatar MIA

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Maybe you should get your facts right before you start abusing people.


"The report says that the average pay for gardaí across the force last year was €63,450.
However it says if the value of the cost of the provision of pensions was taken into account, total remuneration for gardaí would be in excess of €100,000."

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/striking-garda%C3%AD-should-lose-pension-benefits-says-pay-report-1.2902538

And aren't farmers millionaires when you include the value of land.

A guard starting off gets approx €24k, with low enough increments - they've rolled back on allowances of late, but you'd have to do a lot of overtime to get up to €63k.

White Clover

Keepgrowing wrote: »

+ gold plated pension

At this stage are their pensions not defined contribution? I don't know, just asking.

Sam Kade

kerry cow wrote: »

I have a friend in tipp who has 70ac milking 40 cows and a bfp of 5k.
.His neighbour offered him 21k for land plus his bfp , all tax free .and also would give him 20 to 30 working hours as well if he wanted . and the farm would be look after A1.
He refused and still milks his cows but I think financial he's not making it .

How do you figure that he'll get 21k tax free? As far as I know 15k of rental income is tax free anything extra and sfp is taxable. Also you have to be certain sure who you rent to, lots of horror stories about renting from not paying to making sh1te of the place and running it down.

kevthegaff

barnaman wrote:

Well all I can say is borrow little I have €30,000 a year in loan repayment for farm and another €15,000 for a mortgage and its a nightmare. Felt like quitting farming recently and just starting out in it, although in my 30s, and building sheds etc. Full time farmer on just under 400 acres and more and more I think farming is being pushed to a sort of social welfare for lads in the country ie old lads with no pension contributions can join Glas get ANC etc and prob have €250 a week and spend money on nothing. That or lads writing off a jeep and their diesel as their perk from being a farmer. I seem caught in a spot that huge expenses in particular capital and machinery and SFA to show for it! Think best use of my time is to find a laying ostrich.

Less than 400 acres! I'd be rethinking my situation if you can't have good drawing especially with no kids.. you were considering moving to dairy only for high borrowings iirc, did you make the jump? If you keep farming as is entitlents will be area based so could be worthwhile also

rangler1

Sam Kade wrote: »

How do you figure that he'll get 21k tax free? As far as I know 15k of rental income is tax free anything extra and sfp is taxable. Also you have to be certain sure who you rent to, lots of horror stories about renting from not paying to making sh1te of the place and running it down.

10 yr lease can get 30000 tax free and 15 yr lease can get 40000 tax free and if your entitlements were never consolidated or stacked on, it's tax free too.

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/significant-tax-changes-announced-budget-2015/

Buford T. Justice XIX

Avatar MIA wrote: »

And aren't farmers millionaires when you include the value of land.

A guard starting off gets approx €24k, with low enough increments - they've rolled back on allowances of late, but you'd have to do a lot of overtime to get up to €63k.

The 63k is the average across the whole force. The median would be around 35k.

Avatar MIA

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

The 63k is the average across the whole force. The median would be around 35k.

Aye, the higher ups are making serious coin.

rangler1

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Aye, the higher ups are making serious coin.

Especially when you consider at current life expectancy a lot of them will be paid longer for not working than for working

kerry cow

Didn't relise till lately if you are work in paye. You get Approximately 30 days off with holidays and bank holidays .then 2 days off a week over 52 weeks that 104 days plus 30 day equals 134 day .21 weeks off compared to a farmer getting maybe 3 weeks .
All in when holidays are averaged over the year it work out about a half day a week .leaving a working week of 4 and a half days .Monday mornings can be slow to get going before 1030 coffee break and sure Friday lunch time thoughts turn to the weekend and all associated activities .
Not too sure about this milking Craic .I need to get a icbf or ifa job .

Avatar MIA

kerry cow wrote: »

Didn't relise till lately if you are work in paye. You get Approximately 30 days off with holidays and bank holidays .then 2 days off a week over 52 weeks that 104 days plus 30 day equals 134 day .21 weeks off compared to a farmer getting maybe 3 weeks .
All in when holidays are averaged over the year it work out about a half day a week .leaving a working week of 4 and a half days .Monday mornings can be slow to get going before 1030 coffee break and sure Friday lunch time thoughts turn to the weekend and all associated activities .
Not too sure about this milking Craic .I need to get a icbf or ifa job .

Farming is more of a vocation though or possibly a noose, where the eldest son shows interest and is encouraged/praised while the younger siblings head away into professions/work.

For most of our history this was great for the eldest son, but not so great for the last number of decades.

Mooooo

kerry cow wrote: »

Didn't relise till lately if you are work in paye. You get Approximately 30 days off with holidays and bank holidays .then 2 days off a week over 52 weeks that 104 days plus 30 day equals 134 day .21 weeks off compared to a farmer getting maybe 3 weeks .
All in when holidays are averaged over the year it work out about a half day a week .leaving a working week of 4 and a half days .Monday mornings can be slow to get going before 1030 coffee break and sure Friday lunch time thoughts turn to the weekend and all associated activities .
Not too sure about this milking Craic .I need to get a icbf or ifa job .

Farming is the same as for any self employed person in that regard

whelan2

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Farming is more of a vocation though or possibly a noose, where the eldest son shows interest and is encouraged/praised while the younger siblings head away into professions/work.

For most of our history this was great for the eldest son, but not so great for the last number of decades.

I think now it's a case of being delighted if any child shows an interest

Sam Kade

kerry cow wrote: »

Didn't relise till lately if you are work in paye. You get Approximately 30 days off with holidays and bank holidays .then 2 days off a week over 52 weeks that 104 days plus 30 day equals 134 day .21 weeks off compared to a farmer getting maybe 3 weeks .
All in when holidays are averaged over the year it work out about a half day a week .leaving a working week of 4 and a half days .Monday mornings can be slow to get going before 1030 coffee break and sure Friday lunch time thoughts turn to the weekend and all associated activities .
Not too sure about this milking Craic .I need to get a icbf or ifa job .

It's 22 days paid holidays but it depends on how many hours you work.

kerry cow

Farming in the 90's was the best time to farm .you got up in the morning milked the cows did your jobs .you got paid for your milk and meat and you never really heard a complaint .People had enough money for what they need to do .
Now that's all different .everything is thousands and thousands .you won't leave house now without a 100 in the pocket and make sure you check the fuel gauge before you leave or you may be stranded some where because 20 quid won't get you home .
I am not a mean person and I do get around and keep up to the times but really .
The pressure people farm with today is brought about by top tier business people creating a highly paying salary bonused job for them selves at the expense of the primary producer .when your down at the bottom , they want to put the boot on your throat and keep you there .And when your there long enough it becomes the norm .
I enjoyed farming in the 90's .imo

Boaty

What does a business do when it doesn't make money? It closes down, sells its assets and the owners move onto the next business. I know its slightly different for farmers but there's no point in running a farm when it's not profitable. There's too many unprofitable farms in the country.

kerry cow

Agree but farmers pride is too big to let down and they continue to subsidies it .In reality for as long as that gone on processors will keep doing what they are doing .look at the reduction scheme .milk stopped flowing and the processors are spinning trucks here there and everywhere looking to get milk in to fill orders .

Username John

What's the point of this thread?

If it's that farmers are getting a raw deal - I think everyone agrees...

If it's the fact most farmers would make more money letting to farm to the neighbour, tax-free, and getting off farm work - I think most people would agree too...

If it's just a rant about the state of affairs in farming, that's grand too...

Just not sure what the point is?

Keepgrowing

whelan2 wrote: »

I think now it's a case of being delighted if any child shows an interest

No potential successor would want to be reading Boards.ie

I said

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Maybe you should get your facts right before you start abusing people.


"The report says that the average pay for gardaí across the force last year was €63,450.
However it says if the value of the cost of the provision of pensions was taken into account, total remuneration for gardaí would be in excess of €100,000."

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/striking-garda%C3%AD-should-lose-pension-benefits-says-pay-report-1.2902538

Will I never meet anyone who is getting their pension payments along with wages during their working life,and then get a pension payment after they retire.

Keepgrowing

There's no doubt there's low margins in agriculture and while we produce mostly commodity type products that will remain so.

I don't think the full extent of the problem was realised till the building boom started and families had choices. Our expectations have also risen and that's a good thing.

We do however have a generation of very entitled twenty something's who have no concept of saving or doing without involves. I think the younger people are more switched on judging by the people looking for milking etc to help pay through college.

We also have a much more educated and well traveled cohort of farmers entering agriculture which can only be good.

On this thread I think some are confusing profit with free cash. There's a huge difference between the two. There's also the issue of being asset rich and cash poor.

Debt is another, paying down loans is profit, more stock is profit. Some people for some unknown reason choose to pay down debt too quickly or worse not borrowing at all and destroying cash flow

Cattlepen

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

When you consider that the average Guard has a salary of €100k and they are the ones threatening to strike for better Pay, it really does put farm incomes in perspective.

Does a guard earn 100k a year??
Jaysus that is serious

Sam Kade

Cattlepen wrote: »

Does a guard earn €100k a year??
Jaysus that is serious

He'd have to be high up for that also €100k how much would you be taking home? If all his children were grown up he'd be taking home €62,670.

MIKEKC

leg wax wrote: »

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

When you consider that the average Guard has a salary of €100k and they are the ones threatening to strike for better Pay, it really does out farm incomes in perspective.[/QUO/
my father had a saying if you dont know what you are talking about dont talk. my other half is up the ranks of the guards and is no way near your conjured figure .but if she was happy days for legs:D

According to today's Irish Examiner the average salary of a Garda is e100,000 when pension is taken into account.

barnaman

Keepgrowing wrote: »

You pay all your household bills, run your car pay health insurance etc on €1000

Living at home; household bills covered by my mother. Mortgage is on house bought back in boom. would rent for €500 a month by time paid auctioneer to rent it then tax, PRSI etc and upkeep costs for a tenant not worth me renting it. Used savings to cover mortgage up to now but prob have to sell it next year; hoped market would pick up.No medical insurance drive a soon to be 10 year old Berlingo van only used for farm and cost of running it come from farm. No car so use mother's if need one.
Have seperate meter and phone line for farm so all those bills come from farm.

One poster saying repaying debts are profits they are not or I would be screwed and the longest period you can get an Agri loan for is 15 years; have €300,000 borrowed. I inherited farm its tough, place was neglected and most of it rented out for tillage, and have €150,000 to come with when my sister gets married too so most my life will be in debt!

All said though it is my choice but as a young trained full time farmer on a decent bit of ground its hard to see how farming can provide a salary, granted over an average period it may but if beef goes to €3.40/3.50 like to see how. I think will sell my suckler herd and just do dry stock much easier to run them by yourself.

kerry cow

I suppose the point I am making is that I see so many friends and neighbours jumping big into renting high valued land, big debt loans and struggling and sometimes selling assets to keep the wheels on the bus .and as for renting the land it's some other guy in the same boat that ran it up .
People need to take a breath and access as a farming community as a whole. Yes you would make more money not farming and working for another farmer .so who's wrong .
It's the environment we have grown into .
Yes I would love to see new blood entering farming and it for that reason i would like to see a living for everyone or it won't last .