Finland to test 'universal basic income' for the unemployed

AnGaelach

andekwarhola wrote: »

Like others, you're not reading the thread because of a visceral dislike of the idea of unemployed people.

It may increasingly become less of an issue that large parts of the population have the incentive to work, but rather said work will simply not be available.

So then how will you survive on UBI when it's going to give you less money per week? How will the tax base support this if people are going to be losing their jobs? How will the market cope with people have lower disposable incomes and higher taxes?

Like I've said, I've not seen a single feasible study on UBI, it's blind idealism.

Muhammed_1

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The link you give costs the UBI at 150 a week. That's not enough to live on.

It would also have us increase employer's PRSI which would hurt job growth.

I don't find these objections very compelling.

Yes, we need to increase the 150 payment to 188 as it is currently. That's a 25% increase.
From Slide 4, it was costing 22,490 million. With 25.33% added on we need 28,187 million, an increase of 5,700 million.


There is a significant shortfall but not an insurmountable one.

We are completely changing how society works.

Corporations must pay the extra 6,000 million to 10,000 million needed.

I suspect that corporations make in excess of 60 billion in Ireland.
If we took an extra 10% of that we'd be nearly there.

Corporations should be made to realise that they must pay up to 30% tax, perhaps even up to 50%.

My calculations use 20% instead, and are still workable on the back of an envelope.

Muhammed_1

AnGaelach wrote: »

...

Like I've said, I've not seen a single feasible study on UBI, it's blind idealism.

What about the nice bunch of lads at
http://www.socialjustice.ie/content/policy-issues/costing-basic-income-ireland

and the other analysis's on this thread?

Paying people a universal income is no different to having a universal road network, or a universal health service, or a universal police service.

Once it comes in within a few years everyone will love it.

Iwasfrozen

Muhammed_1 wrote: »

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The link you give costs the UBI at 150 a week. That's not enough to live on.

It would also have us increase employer's PRSI which would hurt job growth.

I don't find these objections very compelling.

Yes, we need to increase the 150 payment to 188 as it is currently. That's a 25% increase.
From Slide 4, it was costing 22,490 million. With 25.33% added on we need 28,187 million, an increase of 5,700 million.


There is a significant shortfall but not an insurmountable one.

We are completely changing how society works.

Corporations must pay the extra 6,000 million to 10,000 million needed.

I suspect that corporations make in excess of 60 billion in Ireland.
If we took an extra 10% of that we'd be nearly there.

Corporations should be made to realise that they must pay up to 30% tax, perhaps even up to 50%.

My calculations use 20% instead, and are still workable on the back of an envelope.

What happens when the corporations say no thank you and leave?

After all if computers are replacing humans the need to place oneself in an area with an educated English speaking population lessens.

Iwasfrozen

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What happens when the corporations say no thank you and leave?

After all if computers are replacing humans the need to place oneself in an area with an educated English speaking population lessens.

Recent election results in the UK & US may be the beginnings of a huge backlash against such corporations and they could lose far more in the future as they find out that they can't "follow the money" anymore.

Muhammed_1

I agree that corporations could decide to leave.

This is similar to unions and lockouts in the past.

Large groups go on strike. The company fires them all and rehires new workers.

Corporations can attempt to bully governments. But we need strong leaders who will stand up to the corporations.The economic axctivity which occurs in Ireland must be subject to Irish taxes.


Enda Kenny and Michael Noonan are actually refusing to take 13,000 million in taxes from Apple. That shows you whose side they are on.

Sand

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What happens when the corporations say no thank you and leave?

After all if computers are replacing humans the need to place oneself in an area with an educated English speaking population lessens.

What if trade blocs like the EU cut those corporations off from their markets, driven by the votes of the newly unemployed? There is an increasing drive to protectionism and a retreat from free trade.

Small countries like Ireland cant set the terms - but large trading blocs and large nations like the US and China can and will.

Iwasfrozen

Muhammed_1 wrote: »

I agree that corporations could decide to leave.

This is similar to unions and lockouts in the past.

Large groups go on strike. The company fires them all and rehires new workers.

Corporations can attempt to bully governments. But we need strong leaders who will stand up to the corporations.The economic axctivity which occurs in Ireland must be subject to Irish taxes.


Enda Kenny and Michael Noonan are actually refusing to take 13,000 million in taxes from Apple. That shows you whose side they are on.

I don't think you understand. Automation means companies have less incentive to stay in Western countries.

Your plan would ensure they have an incentive to leave.

Iwasfrozen

Sand wrote: »

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What happens when the corporations say no thank you and leave?

After all if computers are replacing humans the need to place oneself in an area with an educated English speaking population lessens.

What if trade blocs like the EU cut those corporations off from their markets, driven by the votes of the newly unemployed? There is an increasing drive to protectionism and a retreat from free trade.

Small countries like Ireland cant set the terms - but large trading blocs and large nations like the US and China can and will.

Measures like that have to be set unanimously, it only takes one country to vote against it. The country that's benefitting from the movement.

Muhammed_1

I was frozen wrote:

I don't think you understand. Automation means companies have less incentive to stay in Western countries.

Your plan would ensure they have an incentive to leave.

I don't think you understand.

Who will corporations sell to if they withdraw from all countries?

Iwasfrozen

Deleted User wrote: »

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What happens when the corporations say no thank you and leave?

After all if computers are replacing humans the need to place oneself in an area with an educated English speaking population lessens.

Recent election results in the UK & US may be the beginnings of a huge backlash against such corporations and they could lose far more in the future as they find out that they can't "follow the money" anymore.

Maybe, but I think the dissolution of the EU is more likely.

Iwasfrozen

Muhammed_1 wrote: »

I was frozen wrote:

I don't think you understand. Automation means companies have less incentive to stay in Western countries.

Your plan would ensure they have an incentive to leave.

I don't think you understand.

Who will corporations sell to if they withdraw from all countries?

Automation means a company could set up in Poland and sell to the whole EU. Only way to stop them would be to place restrictions on the common market.

Muhammed_1

It is fairly simple.

The price that a corporation must pay to carry out its business in a particular territory is that the corporation must be prepared to pay tax in that territory. At rates of 30% to 50%.

Governments must ensure that. If they continue to fail to do so they will eventually be voted out.

Enda Kenny doesn't want 13,000 million of Apples taxes.

Maybe we should vote in a politician who does want the 13,000 million.

Politics is changing. I will not vote for the likes of Enda Kenny.


Voters should vote for politicians who actually want this country to succeed.

Muhammed_1

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Automation means a company could set up in Poland and sell to the whole EU. Only way to stop them would be to place restrictions on the common market.

I would agree with such restrictions.

We cannot allow societies to fail because of greed of corporations.

We need to mock anti-society viewpoints put forward by corporations or their apologists.

Paying tax is necessary and at rates of 30%, not 2%.

Iwasfrozen

Muhammed_1 wrote: »

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Automation means a company could set up in Poland and sell to the whole EU. Only way to stop them would be to place restrictions on the common market.

I would agree with such restrictions.

We cannot allow societies to fail because of greed of corporations.

We need to mock anti-society viewpoints put forward by corporations or their apologists.

Paying tax is necessary and at rates of 30%, not 2%.

As I said. You may be in favor but change would need a unanimous vote in the EU and the country benefitting isn't going to play ball.

Muhammed_1

Europe is likely to fail and to fall apart in the next 5 years.

It certainly cannot be said with certainty that Europe will survive.

Brexit is real.

Other countries are in big trouble.

We can more or less predict with certainty that there'll be big changes over the next 5 years.


Introducing a basic income is better than civil war, or massive civil unrest.

Iwasfrozen

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Maybe, but I think the dissolution of the EU is more likely.

We may not have to wait too long for that to happen.

Yourself isit

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't think you understand. Automation means companies have less incentive to stay in Western countries.

Your plan would ensure they have an incentive to leave.

100% tariffs.

AnGaelach

Muhammed_1 wrote: »

I suspect that corporations make in excess of 60 billion in Ireland.
If we took an extra 10% of that we'd be have MNCs fleeing to other countries by the billions

Fixed that for you.

AnGaelach

Muhammed_1 wrote: »

What about the nice bunch of lads at
http://www.socialjustice.ie/content/policy-issues/costing-basic-income-ireland

Like I've said before, they're not an unbiased source, and nor is this at all logical.

They're expecting to cut taxes by 12% and increase spending, whilst also assuming everyone will stay employed after telling us employment will decrease drastically enough for us to need this.

I'm sorry, but it's nothing short of socialist drivel.

AnGaelach

Muhammed_1 wrote: »

Corporations can attempt to bully governments. But we need strong leaders who will stand up to the corporations.The economic axctivity which occurs in Ireland must be subject to Irish taxes.


Enda Kenny and Michael Noonan are actually refusing to take 13,000 million in taxes from Apple. That shows you whose side they are on.

I don't think you've done much research into the tax debacle have you?

Yourself isit

I thought that Popepalintine's post about cars and horses was a brilliant summation of the problem. He said that automobiles didn't put humans out of business but they sure put horses out of business.

Peregrine

Re-reg banned and posts deleted.

AnGaelach

Muhammad_1 wrote:

Technological improvements and inventions must necessarily cause an increase in wealth and so it's not surprising that wealth has increased.


It doesn't matter if everyone is more wealthy if inequality has also increased to an even greater degree than wealth has.

In other words, the poor people are 5 times more wealthy now, but the rich are 20 times more wealthy.

That is the increase in inequality right there, and it leads to social problems.

We live in a society, which is supposed to be made up of people who choose to stand together in solidarity for the benefit of all.

That is not what we currently have.

Allowing inequality to increase represents a failure of society. It doesn't represent a success which is how you are painting it.

It is the government who have failed as they are the custodians of society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_HDI

9 Ireland 0.836

What country are you living in, exactly? Because it must not be the same one that I'm living in.

Wanderer78

Stonearch wrote: »

Everyone is wealthier as a result of foreign investment in Ireland, from the poorest to the richest. These companies provide jobs for the ordinary people of Ireland.

What conditions need to be in place for "Equality" to be declared in Ireland?

Every citizen in Ireland has the right to education, every citizen has the potential to do well for themselves if they apply themselves.

id disagree there, we actually dont have an equal access educational system, and its slowly becoming more unequal. id have to agree with american economist michael hudson that we ve confused wealth with debt. like many countries, this describes ireland very well in our neoliberal designed economies. id agree with muhammed in many ways, if we continue with our current economic models, its clear true wealth will end up in the hands of a few and the bulk of debt will be on the shoulders of the many. id also agree with hudson that the fire sectors are largely parasitic on the real world economy and i would also include large corporations in this. yes large corporations provide large amounts of jobs in ireland but the bulk of taxation ends up on the workers. this model is unsustainable. large corporations also have a tendency to undermine working conditions, amongst other things. even co-founder of apple, steve wozniak, believes large corporations should pay at least 50% tax.

AnGaelach

Wanderer78 wrote: »

id disagree there, we actually dont have an equal access educational system, and its slowly becoming more unequal. id have to agree with american economist michael hudson that we ve confused wealth with debt. like many countries, this describes ireland very well in our neoliberal designed economies. id agree with muhammed in many ways, if we continue with our current economic models, its clear true wealth will end up in the hands of a few and the bulk of debt will be on the shoulders of the many. id also agree with hudson that the fire sectors are largely parasitic on the real world economy and i would also include large corporations in this. yes large corporations provide large amounts of jobs in ireland but the bulk of taxation ends up on the workers. this model is unsustainable. large corporations also have a tendency to undermine working conditions, amongst other things. even co-founder of apple, steve wozniak, believes large corporations should pay at least 50% tax.

We've seen American companies keep their money off-shore because US taxes are too high. What makes you think they're willing to pay 50% here when they aren't willing to pay 35% there?

Yourself isit

AnGaelach wrote: »

We've seen American companies keep their money off-shore because US taxes are too high. What makes you think they're willing to pay 50% here when they aren't willing to pay 35% there?

No. That won't work. I can't see anything working except bans on automation.

Wanderer78

AnGaelach wrote: »

We've seen American companies keep their money off-shore because US taxes are too high. What makes you think they're willing to pay 50% here when they aren't willing to pay 35% there?

its a great point, unfortunately since the world is set in 'hyper competitive' mode, increasing corporation tax would probably do more harm than good, particularly to our own economy. it would require a global response to this issues which could very well be impossible. i do suspect most countries are having a very similar problem. im particularly liking david mcwilliams approach to dealing with this issue, its very different to the norm, unfortunately our government will probably follow what europe does, and increase it.

AnGaelach

Yourself isit wrote: »

No. That won't work. I can't see anything working except bans on automation.

Will ye be wearing a Luddite when smashing the machines:D

AnGaelach

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its a great point, unfortunately since the world is set in 'hyper competitive' mode, increasing corporation tax would probably do more harm than good, particularly to our own economy. it would require a global response to this issues which could very well be impossible. i do suspect most countries are having a very similar problem. im particularly liking david mcwilliams approach to dealing with this issue, its very different to the norm, unfortunately our government will probably follow what europe does, and increase it.

Funnily enough, increasing corporation tax rates by itself is a bad idea - there's been proposals to remove the tax on corporations and instead replace it with taxes on dividends/shares so that whatever money a company has, will either go into investment again (and thus stimulate the economy) or will be taxed through dividend payouts.

Although again, there's the problem of companies just parking money in off-shore accounts until there's reason for it to flow back in.

I don't see the Government increasing our tax rate - especially not when the US and Britain are both lowering theirs. It's the golden apple in our basket, if we were to give it up, our economy would quickly run into a brick wall as companies run to the UK or US and just export the goods into the EU.