Credit Note Refund

BelovedAunt

Lads is it legal for companies to refuse a refund witching 28 days when the product is unopened? I brought back an item to power city today but was only offered a credit note as it's their policy to only give a cash refund for faulty items. Thanks.

Stheno

Why did you bring it back?

endagibson

Was this as the result of a change of mind?

GreenFolder2

If it's just unwanted they're under no obligation to take it back at all. Any returned items are only accepted as a gesture of good will.

If it's faulty or somehow not fit for sale, then they have to sort you out with a replacement or refund etc.

listermint

They have no obligation to give cash refund unfortunately OP.

BelovedAunt

Ok thanks lads. It was bought twice so that's why I was returning it.

Denny_Crane

Pretty poor service but legal unless their T&Cs state otherwise. I could not find their T&Cs on their website, just the website T&Cs.

coylemj

Denny_Crane wrote: »

Pretty poor service but legal unless their T&Cs state otherwise. I could not find their T&Cs on their website, just the website T&Cs.

How is it 'pretty poor service'? I know Argos and some other places have a 'no quibble' refund policy but that doesn't mean that those who do not are offering a 'poor' service. Power City sell everything from AA batteries to large screen TVs and washing machines, the OP will have no problem finding something to buy with her credit note.

The majority of stores will not give a cash refund for anything other than faulty goods.

Denny_Crane

coylemj wrote: »

How is it 'pretty poor service'? I know Argos and some other places offer a 'no quibble' guarantee but that doesn't mean that those who do not are offering a 'poor' service. Power City sell everything from AA batteries to large screen TVs and washing machines, the OP will have no problem finding something to buy with her credit note.

The majority of stores will not give a cash refund for anything other than faulty goods.

Most places will offer a cash refund in the case of unwanted, unopened goods presented with proof of purchase. It's such a baseline level of service many people, including the OP it seems, simply expect it.

Legally they're within their rights, I'll shop at the myriad of stores online and offline that offer me a better level of service, as should everyone else. It used to be I had to pay a small premium, now I tend to find the best service also has the best price too.

Not only is it poor service, it's poor business. It encourages people to shop online.

davo10

Most places?

Larger stores can afford to refund people who change their mind and return goods, small businesses cannot. I think it would be very poor business practice to refund all change of mind returns, it would severely effect cash flow. Customer loyalty is a thing of the past, there is no gaurantee that a customer will shop there again just because they were given a refund, and even if they do, they may just return goods a second time because they can.

Online sellers give refunds because they have to under distance selling legislation, not because they want to.

Johnboy1951

BelovedAunt wrote: »

Ok thanks lads. It was bought twice so that's why I was returning it.

If both were bought in the same shop I would expect a refund as it would be seen as an obvious error.

In that case presenting both receipts might encourage them to do a refund.

Denny_Crane

davo10 wrote: »

Most places?

Larger stores can afford to refund people who change their mind and return goods, small businesses cannot. I think it would be very poor business practice to refund all change of mind returns, it would severely effect cash flow. Customer loyalty is a thing of the past, there is no gaurantee that a customer will shop there again just because they were given a refund, and even if they do, they may just return goods a second time because they can.

There have actually been studies done (retailers actually commission this stuff) that show return rates are lower when the return policy is made clear and offers a customer choice. Regardless of that yes most places. It generates goodwill, and customer loyalty is far from a thing of the past, millions is spent ensuring it.

Some smaller businesses may struggle but frankly many will live and die by their level of service. Generally smaller stores will also be selling one off items if they're larger ticket - I've no issue there really, as generally a customer will be well aware of the returns policy. Larger chains like powercity though it's expected returns would be forthcoming, it's simple returns and stock forecasting.

Denny_Crane

davo10 wrote: »

Online sellers give refunds because they have to under distance selling legislation, not because they want to.

It matters not how it becomes a policy, purely that it's there and useable.

20/20

BelovedAunt where was the item bought as a duplicate ? bring that back instead and keep the powercity goods.

davo10

Denny_Crane wrote: »

davo10 wrote: »

Most places?

Larger stores can afford to refund people who change their mind and return goods, small businesses cannot. I think it would be very poor business practice to refund all change of mind returns, it would severely effect cash flow. Customer loyalty is a thing of the past, there is no gaurantee that a customer will shop there again just because they were given a refund, and even if they do, they may just return goods a second time because they can.

There have actually been studies done (retailers actually commission this stuff) that show return rates are lower when the return policy is made clear and offers a customer choice. Regardless of that yes most places. It generates goodwill, and customer loyalty is far from a thing of the past, millions is spent ensuring it.

Some smaller businesses may struggle but frankly many will live and die by their level of service. Generally smaller stores will also be selling one off items if they're larger ticket - I've no issue there really, as generally a customer will be well aware of the returns policy. Larger chains like powercity though it's expected returns would be forthcoming, it's simple returns and stock forecasting.

I suspect you don't own a business. Businesses succeed based on profit and refunding customers effects profit, particularly this time of year where volume of sales increase.

Though customer loyalty may be important in some industries, it is becoming less so in retail as the volume of online sales increases. Customer service is important, particularly when things go wrong, but it is naive to expect all shops to have a refund policy for change of mind. Customers in general do know what returns policies are, it is usually advertised in store behind the till. But default expectation is always, change of mind means no right to a refund, anything offered is at the discretion of the shop owner.

davo10

Denny_Crane wrote: »

It matters not how it becomes a policy, purely that it's there and useable.

It really does when you judge the service and acumen of a vendor based on whether they chose to offer refunds. Online vendors are required to provide refunds, they are not choosing to do so to entice customers or to offer a service above and beyond. They have no choice so they are not "better business people" for doing so.

Denny_Crane

davo10 wrote: »

I suspect you don't own a business. Businesses succeed based on profit and refunding customers effects profit, particularly this time of year where volume of sales increase.

Though customer loyalty may be important in some industries, it is becoming less so in retail as the volume of online sales increases. Customer service is important, particularly when things go wrong, but it is naive to expect all shops to have a refund policy for change of mind. Customers in general do know what returns policies are, it is usually advertised in store behind the till. But default expectation is always, change of mind means no right to a refund, anything offered is at the discretion of the shop owner.

I worked in and managed retail stores for the better part of twenty years. I worked in a number of retailers from those who offered terrible service, to some who offered excellent service. It's actually not (directly) a profitable business you need to keep an eye on - generally that's a binary and if it's a negative it's already too late - what keeps you consistently profitable is changing with the times.

PowerCity's main rival for there smaller items (the sort of thing you buy two of) is online retailer like amazon who have impeccable service. They're also competing against the likes of Argos who have a no quibble refund policy in place.

We can argue it back and forth all day, the fact of the matter is there are cheaper alternatives with a better level of service, retailers who I might add are extremely profitable. There are far too many traditional Irish retailers that are stuck in the mud (or 1980s) when it comes to service, seems powercity is one of them.

Denny_Crane

davo10 wrote: »

It really does when you judge the service and acumen of a vendor based on whether they chose to offer refunds. Online vendors are required to provide refunds, they are not choosing to do so to entice customers or to offer a service above and beyond. They have no choice so they are not "better business people" for doing so.

I suggested that bricks and mortar stores where worse business people for not realising that people will move online if they can't take advantage of the returns policies. a USP of a B&M retailer is to offer all the advantages of buying online with people on site to help you and instant gratification.

endagibson

How much is the item worth OP? Roughly.

davo10

"Worked in" and "own" are two very different situations. Retail is changing dramatically year on year with internet sales increasing exponentially. The decision to refund customers where you worked was not yours and it did not effect your bottom line when you handed back the money.

BelovedAunt

endagibson wrote: »

How much is the item worth OP? Roughly.

€140.

davo10

Denny_Crane wrote: »

davo10 wrote: »

I suggested that bricks and mortar stores where worse business people for not realising that people will move online if they can't take advantage of the returns policies. a USP of a B&M retailer is to offer all the advantages of buying online with people on site to help you and instant gratification.

Ah here, are you suggesting that a bricks and mortar shop can compete with an online bohemath like Amazon just by offering refunds?

Denny_Crane

davo10 wrote: »

"Worked in" and "own" are two very different situations. Retail is changing dramatically year on year with internet sales increasing exponentially. The decision to refund customers where you worked was not yours and it did not effect your bottom line when you handed back the money.

Very few retailers are owned by a single individual. The decisions are driven by market forces. The prevailing market force has been keep the customer happy, try and create synergies and fusion between your online and B&M offerings. Powercity have a situation where you're treated one way online and another offline.

With the majority of larger retailers offering a cash refunds you're arguments are completely moot. It's the occasional Irish owned or cowboy operation that doesn't. Some with reasonable excuses such as furniture retail, but electronics is not custom ordered to the point of not being able to forecast the stock levels.

Denny_Crane

davo10 wrote: »

Ah here, are you suggesting that a bricks and mortar shop can compete with an online bohemath like Amazon just by offering refunds?

/Sigh, you're not interested in having a nuanced discussion just being contrary. I'll leave you to have the last word, as I imagine the OP will with Power City by not shopping there again.

mansize

Due to the nature of their business model, Argos are required to offer change of mind refunds

20/20

Denny_Crane I can see why you worked in many retailers.

Graham

Denny_Crane wrote: »

/Sigh, you're not interested in having a nuanced discussion just being contrary. I'll leave you to have the last word, as I imagine the OP will with Power City by not shopping there again.

I beg to differ on several counts.

1) The retailer has already gone beyond their obligations by offering a credit note as a gesture of goodwill.
2) OP will be shopping at Powercity again. They have €140 to spend

endagibson

davo10 wrote: »

Ah here, are you suggesting that a bricks and mortar shop can compete with an online bohemath like Amazon just by offering refunds?

Only refunds? Probably not. I'd include refunds and advice under a general customer service umbrella. Bricks and mortar stores have to play to their strengths.

If the item can be sold again, then why not offer the refund and do so?

Denny_Crane

mansize wrote: »

Due to the nature of their business model, Argos are required to offer change of mind refunds

Harvey Norman, DID and DSG (Currys/PCWorld) - all offer change of mind cash refunds (at least according to their published T&C's for instore purchases).

mansize

Denny_Crane wrote: »

Harvey Norman, DID and DSG (Currys/PCWorld) - all offer change of mind cash refunds (at least according to their published T&C's for instore purchases).

I never said they didn't only that Argos are
Obliged to

coylemj

Look at it from Power City's viewpoint, if they offered a 'no quibble' cash refund there would be a stream of people in the door on St. Stephens Day bringing back unwanted gifts - hair dryers, toasters, irons etc. for a cash refund which they would then probably spend in the local pub or Paddy Power betting shop. Meanwhile, the rest of the population would be in the door lookong for bargains in the post-Christmas sales i.e. Power City would have to offer the same goods at a reduced price - a lose/lose situation. I can understand why they don't offer cash refunds, especially after Christmas.

Denny_Crane

coylemj wrote: »

Look at it from Power City's viewpoint, if they offered a 'no quibble' cash refund there would be a stream of people in the door on St. Stephens Day bringing back unwanted gifts - hair dryers, toasters, irons etc. for a cash refund which they would then probably spend in the local pub or Paddy Power betting shop. Meanwhile, the rest of the population would be in the door lookong for bargains in the post-Christmas sales i.e. Power City would have to offer the same goods at a reduced price - a lose/lose situation. I can understand why they don't offer cash refunds, especially after Christmas.

Retailers forecast this and project their post Xmas stock orders accordingly. While money is, of course, going out the door, the prevailing logic is it comes back in again in the goodwill generated (at very little real cost to the retailer). In fact most retailers extend their returns policies this time of year. In fact some retailers even rely on returns to help keep them stocked as supply chain gets tricky this time of year.

I actually can't think of another... actually I can let me check though before slating them... Nope Even Maplin, my favorite retailer to hate offers an extended refund policy this time of year and it seems a general one the rest of the year.

Donutz

Denny_Crane wrote:

In fact some retailers even rely on returns to help keep them stocked as supply chain gets tricky this time of year.

This doesn't even make the slightest bit of sense.

Denny_Crane

Donutz wrote: »

This doesn't even make the slightest bit of sense.

Why?

You're ordering Xmas stock months, sometimes even Jan of the previous year, in advance. You know you're going to sell 500 over Xmas with a 20% return rate meaning you've 100 in Jan for sales. I'm massively simplifying it but there are very sophisticated stock management systems that do all of this. Granted with varying degrees of success.

I really didn't think retail was that complicated tbh, seems I missed out on being the life and soul at parties.

listermint

Does any of this matter...

They are not obliged to take back stock that has nothing wrong with nearly 30 days after it was purchased.

That's it that's the end of the discussion it's laughable that you think you could run a business doing this for everyone that walks in the door

Denny_Crane

listermint wrote: »

Does any of this matter...

They are not obliged to take back stock that has nothing wrong with nearly 30 days after it was purchased.

That's it that's the end of the discussion it's laughable that you think you could run a business doing this for everyone that walks in the door

How does every other major retailer (As far as I can see) in the same segment do it?

listermint

Might be something to do with tax avoidance on a global scale.


Carry on, I'm glad your shop is doing do well.

Oh wait...

Denny_Crane

listermint wrote: »

Might be something to do with tax avoidance on a global scale.


Carry on, I'm glad your shop is doing do well.

Oh wait...

The 'shop' I currently work for made over €2Bn profit europe wide last year. It offers every customer the option to exit their contact 14 days after completion. Before that requirement was brought in by law it was 30 days.

Tax avoidance, bloody hell we're the home of tax avoidance. How much tax avoidance do you think DID is doing versus Powercity.

listermint

Denny_Crane wrote: »

The 'shop' I currently work for made over €2Bn profit europe wide last year. It offers every customer the option to exit their contact 14 days after completion. Before that requirement was brought in by law it was 30 days.

Tax avoidance, bloody hell we're the home of tax avoidance. How much tax avoidance do you think DID is doing versus Powercity.

Great you work for meteor or other some such what in the jaysus has that do with hard goods.

Your absolute horn to run local bricks and mortar stores out of business because they can't compete with global tax avoidance and doing their utmost to offer all sorts of sweeteners because they can afford to run them out of business is kinda beyond comprehensive tbh.

But sure look whatever your having yourself.

Your model is not sustainable get real get into the real world.

Donutz

Denny_Crane wrote:

Why?

I always thought that the best way to keep stocked up is to make sure you have enough stock.
Not relying on people returning the stock that you have sold to them in order to have stock on your shelves.

BTW my own personal opinion is that people should never expect cash refunds for unwanted items. I know some stores offer this but that is purely at their discretion and shops who don't offer this should not be bad mouthed.

Denny_Crane

listermint wrote: »

Great you work for meteor or other some such what in the jaysus has that do with hard goods.

Your absolute horn to run local bricks and mortar stores out of business because they can't compete with global tax avoidance and doing their utmost to offer all sorts of sweeteners because they can afford to run them out of business is kinda beyond comprehensive tbh.

But sure look whatever your having yourself.

Your model is not sustainable get real get into the real world.

You're simply not willing to see what's blatantly obvious. The vast majority of retailers forecasting and managing the situation. I'm with you on the no legal obligation front, neither should there be. However you're cherry picking. DID and Powercity are, as far as I know, very similar sized businesses one offering returns, the other not.

If we were talking about a mom and pop store I'd be happy to concede that you probably shouldn't be pushing them for cash refunds. The fact of the matter is very few people buy from mom and pop electrical stores, the ones that do, my parents being two of those customer, so so because of the service they get, so we come round to the point again of service being king.

It's absolute nonsense to suggest that mint returns are the issue you and others are making them out to be for a national retailer.

listermint

You win sir I bow to your superior knowledge the op should be outraged.

Denny_Crane

Donutz wrote: »

I always thought that the best way to keep stocked up is to make sure you have enough stock.
Not relying on people returning the stock that you have sold to them in order to have stock on your shelves.

BTW my own personal opinion is that people should never expect cash refunds for unwanted items. I know some stores offer this but that is purely at their discretion and shops who don't offer this should not be bad mouthed.

You can do either but as the consumer has started to demand more, and other channels have become more consumer friendly through legislation some fairly intelligent and well paid people have come up with solutions. Supply chain logistics was the big thing when I was going through a retail career, it went from doing an order to the computer doing it to frankly some very sophisticated systems.

I understand your point on not being bad mouthed but when you're the only one not doing something all your competitors are doing, personally I think it's alright to be called out on it. Granted you think differently and I respect that opinion.

Denny_Crane

listermint wrote: »

You win sir I bow to your superior knowledge the op should be outraged.

Not outraged at all, powercity are doing nothing wrong legally, just more careful when buying in Powercity from now on. That's actually another point that these return systems exist to get you over the line. Of course the retailer is hoping you don't return the bloody thing. Better to have to only sell it once.

Perhaps then Powercity are the responsible ones here! :pac:

listermint

It costs money to sell twice without some complicated tax avoidance at all levels of you're business its not viable.

And tbh customers don't expect it, it's a luxury. Credit notes have always been the done thing until the likes of Amazon cruised into markets. I like amazon don't get me wrong but I've little respect for how they operate.

Denny_Crane

listermint wrote: »

It costs money to sell twice without some complicated tax avoidance at all levels of you're business its not viable.

And tbh customers don't expect it, it's a luxury. Credit notes have always been the done thing until the likes of Amazon cruised into markets. I like amazon don't get me wrong but I've little respect for how they operate.

Fair comment on Amazon.

I would say though mint stock returns have minimal outlay, especially for retailers with an online presence. You're really looking at the cost of a stock management system and a few extra minimum wage (or near to) retail workers. I concede it does - absolutely - have a cost though, which is being passed on to everyone else.

endagibson

Graham wrote: »

OP will be shopping at Powercity again. They have €140 to spend

They'll only spend that €140 once.

Graham

endagibson wrote: »

They'll only spend that €140 once.

Probably.

I would assume powercity took into account the loss of some customers when deciding on their refund policy.

Personally I don't think a credit note is an unreasonable response from a retailer who had no obligation to offer anything at all.

Denny_Crane

Graham wrote: »

Probably.

I would assume powercity took into account the loss of some customers when deciding on their refund policy.

Personally I don't think a credit note is an unreasonable response from a retailer who had no obligation to offer anything at all.

In all honesty, and I'm as good as an example as others in this thread, you'll still find the odd smaller retailer with a director or directors that simply can't be told anything. I doubt they've done much empirical research into it, it's probably just the same policy they've had for years - which was the point I was making about moving with the times.

Quite right it's not unreasonable. Rather than poor I'll revise it to Below Average customer service, poor being what sparked 3 pages of discussion on retail supply chain :pac:

davo10

When you've worked your way through a few more retail jobs and maybe someday decide to open your own shop, you will then be in a position to hand your money back to all who change their mind. Your experience may be with €2bn earning chains who can afford to take the hit, most small businesses cannot. And to be frank, your inability to understand that does not bode well for you ever having your own business. This time of year in particular, retailers rely on a bump in sales and revenue, it would be very poor business to then have a system in place which requires you to hand your income back because the customer decides they no longer want the item.

I agree with pretty much everyone else on this thread, the seller is not required to refund and they are being very considerate by offering store credit.

Graham

davo10 wrote: »

your inability to understand that does not bode well for you ever having your own business.

Unless it's in something like the legal profession where refunds are something that apply to other businesses