tenant leaves - keep deposit

siobhan08

A family member is landlord for students and she has just been informed that one of the tenants is moving out and has supposedly found someone a replacement.

They were informed today with the next rent due on the first of Janurary.

The group took the house as a unit not on a by room basis. No written lease as such but the group all signed a single page document with rental term and amount of rent per month written and the basic details of the agreement.

I have a few questions.

1) As the tenant gave very little notice can the landlord keep the tenant's deposit even if they are replaced?

2) As they took the house as a unit at an agreeed amount per month and they split the rent in a way to suit them. Are the remaining tenants liable for any short fall in each month?

3) If the remaining tenants refuse to cover the short fall can the landlord keep all of their deposits when the remaining tenants move out at the end of the agreed term to some what cover the lost rent ?

q85dw7osi4lebg

Is it a fixed term lease?

If so,

1) Yes

2) Yes

3) Yes


(As far as I know)

siobhan08

Stevie Beautiful Pun wrote: »

Is it a fixed term lease?

If so,

1) Yes

2) Yes

3) Yes


(As far as I know)

As far as I'm aware it was not a full detailed lease, it was just one sheet of paper with with the basic details that each of the signed their own details agreeing to the above terms

q85dw7osi4lebg

In that case, I'm unsure as to the legalities, although you may need to find out how long the tenants are there before getting any more clarity.

siobhan08

Stevie Beautiful Pun wrote: »

In that case, I'm unsure as to the legalities, although you may need to find out how long the tenants are there before getting any more clarity.

They are students so the agreed term was the academic year only and were new from tenants for this academic year.

Graham

siobhan08 wrote: »

I have a few questions.

1) As the tenant gave very little notice can the landlord keep the tenant's deposit even if they are replaced?

On what basis would a landlord try to justify retention of the deposit? Assuming there is no damage and no loss of rent.

Assuming the landlord is registered with the RTB (and there's nothing to suggest they shouldn't be). I would expect retention of the deposit to result in the rapid lodgement of a complaint by the outgoing tenant.

q85dw7osi4lebg

Graham wrote: »

On what basis would a landlord try to justify retention of the deposit? Assuming there is no damage and no loss of rent.

Assuming the landlord is registered with the RTB (and there's nothing to suggest they shouldn't be). I would expect retention of the deposit to result in the rapid lodgement of a complaint by the outgoing tenant.

There will be a loss of rent, due to less than 28 days notice being given as required.

siobhan08

Graham wrote: »

On what basis would a landlord try to justify retention of the deposit? Assuming there is no damage and no loss of rent.

lack of sufficent notice informing the landlord they were moving out. landlord lives at the opposition end of the country so making the journey to check the house is not exactly a priority this time of year.

the tenant signed an agreement to stay for the acdemic year and has left before the agreeed time

I was in a similar situation when at college, I moved out of a house early, landlord got someone else in but still took my deposit

Turkish1

Stevie Beautiful Pun wrote: »

Is it a fixed term lease?

If so,

1) Yes

2) Yes

3) Yes


(As far as I know)

Are the tenancies registered with the RTB as one tenancy or three (or at all?)

1) If they have found a replacement (that the landlord is happy with) on what grounds would you believe they already entitled to keep the deposit? Assuming there is no void period - you would have no shortfall to cover and no reason to withhold a deposit.

2) sounds like they are liable for the full rent if it was one agreement and they split as they see fit but will depend on the specifics of the case

3) - see 1 above. If there is no loss as the tenant is replaced you would not be entitled to keep any of the deposit as you suffered no loss.

I'm not sure how it would work if you refused the potential new tenant, tenants may have some comeback if they appealed to the RTB based on the landlord not mitigating their losses - but that is pure speculation on my part.

SteM

Any landlord that can't be arsed printing the standard lease (that almost everyone uses) and getting her tenants to sign it deserves any hassle she gets.

brendane

Did you say that the tennant moving out has found a replacement to take up his spot in the house? If so, nothing should change

Graham

Stevie Beautiful Pun wrote: »

There will be a loss of rent, due to less than 28 days notice being given as required.

Missed that bit.

Assuming this will be considered a joint tenancy between all the parties involved.

As the joint tenancy is not ending, the issue of returning a deposit should not arise for the landlord.
As the rent for the joint tenancy is spread across the group I would make the entire group know they are jointly responsible for the full rent every month.

Essentially, let the group know it's their issue, not yours but you reserve the right to vet any changes to the names tenants.

As others have suggested, it's well worth getting a proper lease/tenancy agreement in place.

Turkish1

Stevie Beautiful Pun wrote: »

There will be a loss of rent, due to less than 28 days notice being given as required.

Are you just assuming that? If they have a replacement tenant for the same day as tenant leaving there would be no loss whatsoever. Regardless of if the notice was 1 day or 28days or 128days.

eurokev

The student found a replacement, give him/her their deposit back.

q85dw7osi4lebg

Not assuming anything, just working with what OP has given us.

EDIT: Missed end of first sentence!

siobhan08

Graham wrote: »

Missed that bit.

Assuming this will be considered a joint tenancy between all the parties involved.

As the joint tenancy is not ending, the issue of returning a deposit should not arise for the landlord.
As the rent for the joint tenancy is spread across the group I would make the entire group know they are jointly responsible for the full rent every month.

Essentially, let the group know it's their issue, not yours.

Yes the landland was informed this evening that they were moving out so only gave 11 days notice. Next rent is due on the 1st of Jan.
The tenants gave the deposit individually but they were informed of the monthly rent and the split it how they saw fit. As far as I know they split it based on the size of the rooms

Graham

eurokev wrote: »

The student found a replacement, give him/her their deposit back.

I wouldn't go near that unless the OP wants to be playing Nanny for the duration of the tenancy.

If the OP is ok with the replacement tenant, the replacement tenants deposit could go to the original tenant without the landlords involvement.

Mrs OBumble

eurokev wrote: »

The student found a replacement, give him/her their deposit back.

+1

And its Christmas, stop being an ass.

SteM

siobhan08 wrote: »

Yes the landland was informed this evening that they were moving out so only gave 11 days notice. Next rent is due on the 1st of Jan.
The tenants gave the deposit individually but they were informed of the monthly rent and the split it how they saw fit. As far as I know they split it based on the size of the rooms

So the tenant is paid up to 1st January, there's someone moving in then and going g to start paying straight away? Is that correct?

siobhan08

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

+1

And its Christmas, stop being an ass.

The student left before the agreed time and gave hardly any notice giving the landlord no chance to approve the potentially new tenant or check for any damages

siobhan08

SteM wrote: »

So the tenant is paid up to 1st January, there's someone moving in then and going g to start paying straight away? Is that correct?

From what I can gather yes but no details of the potential new tenant were passed on so landland has had no contact with them so as it stands they don't if they new tenant will definitly be moving in.

Graham

siobhan08 wrote: »

The student left before the agreed time and gave hardly any notice giving the landlord no chance to approve the potentially new tenant or check for any damages

Again I'm assuming this is a joint tenancy, in which case I just wouldn't get involved.

The tenancy is not ending so there is no case for returning the deposit. The rent has not changed so the group need to sort out the rent between themselves.

If there's a replacement tenant, they need to submit the details for your approval they can make their own arrangements for new tenant covering deposit for old tenant.

It's probably occurred to you already but this would be much easier if it were all agreed at the start of the tenancy.

SteM

siobhan08 wrote: »

The student left before the agreed time and gave hardly any notice giving the landlord no chance to approve the potentially new tenant or check for any damages

If there's no rent missed and there's no damage done then give the tenant back their deposit ffs.
Your friend should be more interested in getting a proper lease in order and managing their incredibly valuable asset than worrying about a few hundred euro deposit imo.

siobhan08

Graham wrote: »

Again I'm assuming this is a joint tenancy, in which case I just wouldn't get involved.

The tenancy is not ending so there is no case for returning the deposit. The rent has not changed so the group need to sort out the rent between themselves.

If there's a replacement tenant, they need to submit the details for your approval they can make their own arrangements for new tenant covering deposit for old tenant.

so basically if the new tenant does move in, they should give their deposit to the outgoing tenant and the deposit that they landlord has would then become the new tenants. would that be right?

SteM

siobhan08 wrote: »

From what I can gather yes but no details of the potential new tenant were passed on so landland has had no contact with them so as it stands they don't if they new tenant will definitly be moving in.

Well maybe your friend that has an incredibly valuable asset and should be managing it as such should push the subject and find out the facts? Christmas or not I'd be down there to find out what's going on.

Graham

siobhan08 wrote: »

so basically if the new tenant does move in, they should give their deposit to the outgoing tenant and the deposit that they landlord has would then become the new tenants. would that be right?

Yup.

No involvement from landlord other than approving the new tenant. The students sort it out amongst themselves.

siobhan08

SteM wrote: »

Well maybe your friend that has an incredibly valuable asset and should be managing it as such should push the subject and find out the facts? Christmas or not I'd be down there to find out what's going on.

be a bit difficult now the the college has finished for christmas and the tenants have no returned home to different parts of the country for christmas

AndrewJRenko

siobhan08 wrote: »

The group took the house as a unit not on a by room basis. .

What do you mean by this? Was this 'joint and several liability' clear in the agreement?

siobhan08 wrote: »

 No written lease as such but the group all signed a single page document with rental term and amount of rent per month written and the basic details of the agreement.

Did this lease document that they signed say anything about early termination? Or about duration of the agreement?

Guffy

If the student got a replacement, just let them get the deposit off the replacememt and everything else goes on as normal, no?

Graham

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What do you mean by this? Was this 'joint and several liability' clear in the agreement?

Rent is for the entire house so it would be hard to interpret otherwise.

The question does highlight the necessity for a proper legal agreement.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Did this lease document that they signed say anything about early termination? Or about duration of the agreement?

How is it being terminated if the other tenants are staying?

siobhan08

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What do you mean by this? Was this 'joint and several liability' clear in the agreement?

the agreement stated the monthly for the entire house and the tenants agreed to that

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Did this lease document that they signed say anything about early termination? Or about duration of the agreement?

yes it stated the dates of the agreement

eurokev

siobhan08 wrote:

The student left before the agreed time and gave hardly any notice giving the landlord no chance to approve the potentially new tenant or check for any damages

There could be extenuating circumstances. Just tell her give the deposit back and don't be an a.hole , you could end up creating a hell of a lot of trouble for yourself with someone by keeping the deposit.

siobhan08

eurokev wrote: »

There could be extenuating circumstances. Just tell her give the deposit back and don't be an a.hole , you could end up creating a hell of a lot of trouble for yourself with someone by keeping the deposit.

without going into details the reason they gave for moving out would not be considered extenuating circumstances

Graham

eurokev wrote: »

There could be extenuating circumstances. Just tell her give the deposit back and don't be an a.hole , you could end up creating a hell of a lot of trouble for yourself with someone by keeping the deposit.

There might not be extenuating circumstances. It's entirely possible the tenant just thought feck the rest of the house I've found something else. It's not at all unusual in student houses.

q85dw7osi4lebg

Keep it.

Graham

Stevie Beautiful Pun wrote: »

Keep it.

I don't think it's even a case of keeping it. Tenancy hasn't ended, it's not due to be returned.

SteM

siobhan08 wrote: »

so basically if the new tenant does move in, they should give their deposit to the outgoing tenant and the deposit that they landlord has would then become the new tenants. would that be right?

This is what should happen but your friend has to be fair to the new tenant. At the moment it sounds like your friend wants to keep the deposit. If the new tenant is paying the old tenant the deposit and the new tenant has no chance of getting that back from your friend at the end of the tenancy then they should be told that up front.

q85dw7osi4lebg

Graham wrote: »

I don't think it's even a case of keeping it. Tenancy hasn't ended, it's not due to be returned.

Agreed.

siobhan08

SteM wrote: »

This is what should happen but your friend has to be fair to the new tenant. At the moment it should like your friend wants to keep the deposit. If the new tenant is paying the old tenant the deposit and the new tenant has no chance of getting that back from your friend at the end of the tenancy then they should be told that up front.

if the new tenant gives the old tenant the deposit and causes no damage and stays the full agreed time. There would be no justification for the landlord not returning the deposit they have to the new tenant

Graham

siobhan08 wrote: »

There would be no justification for the landlord not returning the deposit they have to the new tenant

Exactly

(at the end of the tenancy, when they all move out)

SteM

siobhan08 wrote: »

if the new tenant gives the old tenant the deposit and causes no damage and stays the full agreed time. There would be no justification for the landlord not returning the deposit they have to the new tenant

Given your very first question then it seems like your friend (or you maybe?) is thinking that she gets to keep the deposit because of lack of notice. She can't let the tenants sort it out amongst themselves and then keep the deposit, that's my point.

Sarn

I would be of the view that the initial deposit remains untouched. The replacement tenant can provide the deposit to the student that is leaving.

If the other tenants were smart they would identify any issues that could affect the deposit now as they will suffer the loss at the end of the tenancy and not the one that leaves now.

siobhan08

SteM wrote: »

Given your very first question then it seems like your friend (or you maybe?) is thinking that she gets to keep the deposit because of lack of notice. She can't let the tenants sort it out amongst themselves and then keep the deposit, that's my point.

They were not sure and it was a question, the information recieved has given clarification of what needs to be done

Guffy

siobhan08 wrote: »

without going into details the reason they gave for moving out would not be considered extenuating circumstances

Tbh it sounds like the LL is just trying to pocket this tennants deposit. I hope they do and it gets dragged through prtb.

You have said that the tennant has found a replacement. I don't see what the issue is here. There is no loss of rent at all. Either give the deposit back or get the new tennant to give the old one the deposit in lue of the original deposit.

siobhan08

if the new tenant does not move in. The landlord would then be able to take the deposit and the remaining tenants would be liable for the short fall.
Would that be right ?

siobhan08

gufc21 wrote: »

Tbh it sounds like the LL is just trying to pocket this tennants deposit. I hope they do and it gets dragged through prtb.

You have said that the tennant has found a replacement. I don't see what the issue is here. There is no loss of rent at all. Either give the deposit back or get the new tennant to give the old one the deposit in lue of the original deposit.

not the case at all. they were looking for some infomation which is what they have been provided with.
They will be informing the out going tenant that if they want their desposit back they will have to get it from the incoming tenant.

_Jamie_

If the replacement moves in straight away with rent and deposit in hand, then there is no shortfall so I can't see any reason to hold on to any of the deposit of the departing tenant, assuming of course that the departing tenant caused no damage.

exaisle

eurokev wrote: »

The student found a replacement, give him/her their deposit back.

No. Keep the deposit. The new tenant can pay the amount of the deposit to the one moving out. It just means that there's a change of personnel on the "lease".

athtrasna

The landlord should inspect the room and the house and if there's no damage to that or the house then return the deposit to the original tenant.

It's really inadvisable for the new tenant to hand over the deposit to the departing tenant. They have no idea what damage may have been done to the property and could end up losing their deposit through no fault of their own.

davindub

siobhan08 wrote: »

if the new tenant does not move in. The landlord would then be able to take the deposit and the remaining tenants would be liable for the short fall.
Would that be right ?

All the tenants including the departing tenant are responsible for the rent. A new person coming in assumes the responsibility of the previous tenant including any deposit issues.

You might want to consider telling the current tenants to collect the deposit from the new person and to use this to cover the shortfall in rent. That way they can pay the remainder to the departing tenant if anything is due. Also it would be a good idea to arrange a inspection of the property to give an indication of any damages to the tenants, at least if the departing tenant caused damages it can be taken into consideration.

This way the new person moving in will not be paying a deposit to the departing tenant even some of the deposit will be used to recover lost rent. The above is not subject to RTB, it is between the tenants.

Bob Z

Does the new tenant definitely exist?