Landlords, what have you decided to do about the new amendments?

76544567

For my part I haven't fully decided yet.

I will outline some of the options I MAY have here, but if none of them pan out I am selling up.
Maybe I'll invest in property in a more owner friendly country. Maybe I'll just invest in equities from now on.

I have a number of properties currently rented and they are a good bit below market rate, which is the straw that broke the camel's back.

One option is that I move into the 4 bed house that's rented and then rent out the 2 bed house I currently live in instead. That's one property. Not too sold on that idea, but it's a possibility

Option two is that I do above and go with airbnb or something like that instead.

As tenants move out I'll be going to short term let's with all properties anyway.

I'm waiting to hear more about options to break charges down into rent + other charges, eg service charges, key money, administration charges etc. One is even that a redecoration fee be taken in advance of renting of a fixed amount to be spent outing the place back to the same condition after the tenant has moved out. Another is renting furniture, parking spaces, etc to the tenants.

I was talking the agency that looks after my properties. About saying bye bye to him. He was telling.me that he is starting a new line where he looks after airbnb for people. He thinks he's going to lose a lot of business and he will add that to his services. Also he was saying he is looking into charging the tenants now instead of the LL for initial and ongoing agency fees. That way they have nothing to do with the rent.

So it's all up.in the air at the moment.
I'm leaning towards just selling up really. Maybe just buy that apartment in Spain I always wanted and rent that via airbnb when I don't use it.

Who knows.

How has it affected you?
And what options are you exploring?

pc7

I'm an accidental landlord and seriously going to look at selling up in the new year. Will see when mortgage statement comes in in new year and talk to estate agents and see if I can now break even. House is below market rate but to friends so if I want to sell I know they'll leave without issue. Alternatively I'll just keep it until they leave of their own accord then I'll up it to market rate. Lots of thinking to do in the new year when bill is passed.
My oh has a few properties but he is more a professional landlord, can't see him selling off any of them, he'll just ride it out. Had given one house 90 days notice in September for a rise in January so hopefully that still stands. He'll be fuming if it isn't.

Baby01032012

All depends on the wording of the legislation passed by the Dail last night. If it's a case that existing Part IV tenancies will still be 4 years and only new tenancies will be subject to the 6 year tenure I will be giving my tenants notice to leave when their part IV 4 year term is up in July. It's significantly under market, I'll refurbish and let it out to new tenants or short lets or airbnb...I don't really know for sure.

tuisginideach

pc7 wrote: »

Had given one house 90 days notice in September for a rise in January so hopefully that still stands. He'll be fuming if it isn't.

Why wouldn't it still stand? If he has given valid notice, how can that now not be valid?

CIARAN_BOYLE

tuisginideach wrote: »

Why wouldn't it still stand? If he has given valid notice, how can that now not be valid?

If new laws come in banning increases of more than 4% a year and the rise is more than 4% maybe it becomes illegal notice.

76544567

As with a lot of options at the moment some may or may not be possible.
I was just trying to get a feel as to what LLs are trying to do.
Not all of the ideas will be possible, but it's good to get as many experiences and possibilities as possible.

DubCount

I have 2 rental properties in Dublin. One is not far off market rental rate and I will be holding on to that. The other has a 1 year lease that expires in May 2017 and after a maximum review will still have a rent that is €400 below market rate and €100 below the rent I was charging in 2006. I will see out the term of the lease I committed to. After that, unless I can make up at least some of that gap by adding key holding charges or whatever loophole becomes popular, I am going to sell up and look for a better return elsewhere. I guess I'm lucky that I'm not in negative equity and can do this.

For me, the worst part of this is the impact on the current tenant who has been in the property for almost 4 years and has been a top class tenant. I would have been happy to sit down and work out a compromise with her and to give her a large discount on market rate due to her excellent track record. That option has been taken away, and my choice is now to accept the government imposed rate, or sell. The maths for the sell option are looking hard to ignore.

davo10

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

If new laws come in banning increases of more than 4% a year and the rise is more than 4% maybe it becomes illegal notice.

I'm sure I heard Coveney say that new rules would not apply to valid notices already served 90 days before increase due to kick in. It will only apply to rent reviews due after bill introduced/ ncreases due 90 days from date legislation brought into law. But I haven't rad final rules yet.

myshirt

Why all this talk about trying to 'game the system' and circumnavigate the spirit, ethos, and intention of the law?

Why?

How come I didn't hear landlords shouting loud for a more equitable system when all was in their favour?

Somehow quite strangely, many landlords believe their ownership of multiple properties or second homes is of their own effort and making, rather than reflecting on the fact of the macroeconomic environment affording them that, of which younger workers now pay the loans for.

Why game the system? Ethics anyone?

_Brian

I'd be concerned about charging the redecoration fee up front, a poor tenant may take this as a signal that no care needs to be taken of the decoration currently in place..

athtrasna

_Brian wrote: »

I'd be concerned about charging the redecoration fee up front, a poor tenant may take this as a signal that no care needs to be taken of the decoration currently in place..

And redecoration between tenancies is tax deductible. Can't have it both ways

CIARAN_BOYLE

davo10 wrote: »

I'm sure I heard Coveney say that new rules would not apply to valid notices already served 90 days before increase due to kick in. It will only apply to rent reviews due after bill introduced/ ncreases due 90 days from date legislation brought into law. But I haven't rad final rules yet.

final rules haven't passed the Dail yet.

Its like the finance bill originally 80 pages grows another 40 when committee amendments get slipped through. Some from the minister of finance that he didn't want to include in his speech.

davo10

myshirt wrote: »

Why all this talk about trying to 'game the system' and circumnavigate the spirit, ethos, and intention of the law?

Why?

How come I didn't hear landlords shouting loud for a more equitable system when all was in their favour?

Somehow quite strangely, many landlords believe their ownership of multiple properties or second homes is of their own effort and making, rather than reflecting on the fact of the macroeconomic environment affording them that, of which younger workers now pay the loans for.

Why game the system? Ethics anyone?

Landlords have been shouting for a more equitable system for years. Tenancy rights very much favour the tenant, I would happily accept the new rules if they were accompanied by rules which allow landlords to evict errant tenants more easily.

Barely Hedged

myshirt wrote: »

Why all this talk about trying to 'game the system' and circumnavigate the spirit, ethos, and intention of the law?

Why?

How come I didn't hear landlords shouting loud for a more equitable system when all was in their favour?

Somehow quite strangely, many landlords believe their ownership of multiple properties or second homes is of their own effort and making, rather than reflecting on the fact of the macroeconomic environment affording them that, of which younger workers now pay the loans for.

Why game the system? Ethics anyone?

Do you think landlords are treated ethnically by the government and media?

Mitzy

I have a property which has been leased with RAS for the past 8 years but I am not renewing that option so the tenant has been served notice and will be vacating at the end of March.
I don't think I have much choice but to go down the short term letting route as I cannot commit to this property long term. It's costing me too much with maintenance, tax & then the joy of dealing with the banks looking for full repayments. I simply can't afford it.
I'm hoping that in the next 2 years the value of the property will be worth what I paid for it so I can cut my losses.

I really can't understand why the government is not looking at the whole picture here. How is driving small landlords out of the market going to help anyone? It will be interesting to see if bill this solves this crisis but I really feel that by this time next year the "crisis" will have become a total disaster.

goz83

As someone who has been thinking of investing in a property to let, I am really disappointed with all the cr@p landlords have to put up with, taking big risks and seeing less than nothing from it in many cases. This new legislation is going to force many landlords out of the market and make the situation so much worse for tenants in the medium to long term. I am now thinking of investing abroad.

Richard Bruton called by the house the other day. Had a brief chat with him about restoration of pay (wife is a teacher) and other bits. I had a look at his flyer and it's clear from it that the Government don't want private Landlords. They want "professional" fund companies (such as those running pensions) to come in and take over the market. They're just slowly squeezing landlords out of the market to accommodate for this. I think it's a terrible plan.

tuisginideach

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

If new laws come in banning increases of more than 4% a year and the rise is more than 4% maybe it becomes illegal notice.

But surely he can't bring that in retrospectively? That would be absolutely farcical!!!.

doopa

goz83 wrote: »

As someone who has been thinking of investing in a property to let, I am really disappointed with all the cr@p landlords have to put up with, taking big risks and seeing less than nothing from it in many cases. This new legislation is going to force many landlords out of the market and make the situation so much worse for tenants in the medium to long term. I am now thinking of investing abroad.

Richard Bruton called by the house the other day. Had a brief chat with him about restoration of pay (wife is a teacher) and other bits. I had a look at his flyer and it's clear from it that the Government don't want private Landlords. They want "professional" fund companies (such as those running pensions) to come in and take over the market. They're just slowly squeezing landlords out of the market to accommodate for this. I think it's a terrible plan.

Why is it a terrible plan? Professionalism and standards will surely increase the level of service provided?

If you still think investing in property in Ireland is feasible then you can join one of these funds? You aren't prevented from investing in property.

goz83

doopa wrote: »

Why is it a terrible plan? Professionalism and standards will surely increase the level of service provided?

If you still think investing in property in Ireland is feasible then you can join one of these funds? You aren't prevented from investing in property.

It's a terrible plan, because there will be a large number of tenants getting turfed out next year from Landlords selling up, or going the air b&b route. Less supply makes a crisis a disaster.

I would have no desire to invest in any of these funds. I prefer to have some control over what my money is doing for me.

April 73

I'm one of the small time landlords that I think the government would like to exit the market. I have one property in the Republic of Ireland & one in Northern Ireland.

I originally invested in property to supplement my private pension. I will only be eligible for a state pension on my 69th birthday (and am expecting that to be pushed out further). I consider myself part of the self-sufficient class in this country - expecting and receiving no handouts - and paying a huge amount of tax every year.

I issued a rent review & increase notification last week on the property in Dublin. It was approx €400 below the market rate with tenants in-situ for four years. I raised the rent by €200 as I felt that €400 a month extra was too much to ask for. Some will say I am a greedy landlord looking for an extra €200 and some will say I am foolish for not going for the full €400.

I have thought of selling in the last week. The property is worth about 10-15% more than I paid for it in 2002 and the mortgage has only 6 years left to run. If I sell where do I invest in a diversified way for my pension? Equally I have put in 14 years with this property and paid a lot of tax over the years. I would like to see it through to the end of the mortgage.

In the future I would certainly consider passing the management fee on to the tenant. This would be a possibility in 2018, when it looks like 4% will be the max I can raise the rent by. I did reduce the rent during the recession as that what market forces dictated & I am irritated that the government is preventing me benefitting from the current rise in rents. When supply constraint eases I can foresee a drop in rents again - with tenants benefitting, but no rent protection for landlords.

In short & at the moment, I am staying in but looking at my options. I am in a better position than many though and I believe the new legislation will totally hammer accidental landlords, many of whom are in negative equity and renting themselves.

I am paying about €5000 a year in tax on the rent. I wonder has the government considered how much tax revenue they stand to lose by replacing me & my €5000 with a foreign REIT paying damn all tax?

murphaph

doopa wrote: »

Why is it a terrible plan? Professionalism and standards will surely increase the level of service provided?

If you still think investing in property in Ireland is feasible then you can join one of these funds? You aren't prevented from investing in property.

If small time landlords are edged out you can kiss goodbye to finding rental accommodation outside the cities and large towns. It will not be cost effective for large scale landlords to have properties scattered all over rural Ireland and so they won't bother.

If existing tenants can't afford to buy their rural rentals, expect more migration to urban Ireland as these people seek a roof over their heads.

_Brian

Locally to us a lot of small landlords have got out and houses have moved into private ownership rather than rented.
Result is a severe shortage in family type homes, last time we changed tenants we were contacted by a string of families in advance of the sitting tenants moving out and had our choice. I know two years later two families are still looking for a proper family home with a garden but none are available.

Rural Ireland needs small time landlords but more and more I see no reason to stick with it. I've set a target and once I'm there I'll be selling out.

GGTrek

BTW the changes are pretty much set in stone at the moment, see my post in the other thread. I tried to question in this forum how to terminate a tenancy using section 34 (b) which is when the tenancy reaches its 4 years, but it was closed by moderator. Put it in the legal forum: no answer yet (probably too technical and detailed).

If anyone is interested in getting top legal advice I have already used the services of two solicitors that have participated to prominent High Court cases on tenancy law and in the past they gave me top legal advice. I shall go to them again, they are not cheap, if someone is interested in splitting legal advice fees about landlord options after the latest law changes please PM me.

On my side I have 4 tenancies that are going to be reaching 4 years in 2017 and another 2 in early 2018. I shall terminate them all. All new tenancies will be only 6 months fixed and tenant out no matter how good the tenant is. I am sorry for some tenants, but this law is just one meddling too far. I shall ask legal advice if by using short term lets I can avoid what has become RTA nonsense.

April 73

I remember a debate on here before about six month leases and notice periods.
If I remember correctly it was about not being able to issue notice to leave before the six month period ended & by then the tenant had Part IV rights.
I think the end of the discussion was that five month leases were the answer with a month's notice (28 days?) at the end of the five month period so the tenant was out before six months had passed.

76544567

Another thing I just heard was that you can rent your property to someone who doesn't live in it and then they do airbnb.
Allegedly there is already such a service in Dublin. A guy rents multiple properties for this purpose. LL gets the rent. Other guy gets whatever profit he can make from running multiple short term let's.

I can see many more businesses like that appearing soon too. And for.the LL it totally cuts the rtb out.

I like the idea and would be interested in checking it out further too.

doopa

76544567 wrote: »

Another thing I just heard was that you can rent your property to someone who doesn't live in it and then they do airbnb.
Allegedly there is already such a service in Dublin. A guy rents multiple properties for this purpose. LL gets the rent. Other guy gets whatever profit he can make from running multiple short term let's.

I can see many more businesses like that appearing soon too. And for.the LL it totally cuts the rtb out.

I like the idea and would be interested in checking it out further too.

There are a few services out there - e.g. http://www.airsorted.uk/

I imagine there are a lot more people doing this informally. I know a few people doing it that way - I didn't ask, but presumed it was mostly cash based. The airsorted route would be more official/tax compliant.

murphaph

The only thing stopping a mass exodus towards airbnb would be planning law (difficult to enforce in apartments, all but impossible with stand alone houses). Even given planning law, people with houses routinely convert them to B&Bs quite legally.

I only have 1 residential letting in Ireland. I have 3 small commercial units besides that. I have the residential unit let out under RAS to excellent tenants but the RAS contract is up next summer and I will almost certainly not renew that contract as it both below market rent now (by some margin recently) and I simply have not enjoyed the way the council deals with me as if I should be grateful for their money in the buoyant Dublin rental market!

Assuming I terminate the contract with the council the tenants will be forced to vacate unless they can come up with their rent privately, which I am not expecting them to do. I would then expect vacant possession and would likely seek to quash the "rental tag" on the property by letting my brother take up occupation and letting rooms under rent a room or just airbnb. I'm not under financial pressure to have the thing let the whole time. Mortgage is small and a low interest tracker say pay buttons in interest anyway.

I have residential property in Germany and whilst there's a touch more regulation, the whole thing is treated as a business with every conceivable expense (even pre-letting) is allowable in the tax return and Germany recently made it easier to remove rent nomads. In Ireland I see nothing positive on the horizon as a small time landlord. If they want us out, they can have us out. We'll invest elsewhere and the state can house all these people, somehow.

Edit: that airsorted looks very interesting. Thanks for posting.

sublime1

Would be grateful to get people's opinions about my situation. I'm an "accidental landlord" renting my own home since 2008 and still in negative equity. A few months back my current tenants gave me their notice that they were moving out in early January. Then the new legislation was announced.
Seeing as I have to get new tenants anyway in January, will this new limit of 4% apply to me? The tenants are moving out of their own choice, I was sad to see them go.
Another question: what date does the new limit kick in? Is it from the date the president signs it? Theoretically, I might be able to do the new rental before that date, depending on if there's any hold ups etc.

murphaph

When did you last issue a rent increase? If more than 24 months ago, issue one now to the current tenants right up to the top of the market rate. They won't care as they'll be gone in less than 90 days but you will have issued your notice.

pc7

tuisginideach wrote: »

Why wouldn't it still stand? If he has given valid notice, how can that now not be valid?

I haven't had time to read the bill yet so don't know the full details or if it will be affected

sublime1

Thanks for the response. On the day the existing tenants move out, it will have been 2 years since the last rent increase.
Can I still issue a rent increase notice to tenants who have already given me their notice to leave?

murphaph

Sure why not.

goz83

Does the 4% rent cap per year apply even when a tenancy is ending, making way for a new tenancy? So, if someone is renting a property for 1k pm now and their tenant leaves in June, can the LL not increase the asking rent rate for any new tenancy to say 1200 if he/she wants to?

If not, many LLs currently charging way below market rates is going to be badly stuck

Graham

goz83 wrote: »

If not, many LLs currently charging way below market rates is going to be badly stuck

Looks like that's exactly what's going to happen.

GGTrek

sublime1 wrote: »

Thanks for the response. On the day the existing tenants move out, it will have been 2 years since the last rent increase.
Can I still issue a rent increase notice to tenants who have already given me their notice to leave?

Yes you can, it is ridicolous but you can:). What is ridicolous is not you, but the new ill thought rushed new red tape that forces people like you to jump through this kind of hoops.

sublime1

I have to admit that I'm not up to date on the latest rules (I'm out of the country). Would an email suffice or does it have to be a letter?

Lux23

I would imagine if its a new tenancy you can charge what you like, sure who would be able to complain about it anyway?

76544567

sublime1 wrote: »

I have to admit that I'm not up to date on the latest rules (I'm out of the country). Would an email suffice or does it have to be a letter?

Well anyone not in a pressure zone should be upping their rent to the maximum possible as soon as they can, because they will be next, and there is.nothing you can do about it after they decide you are next for the block.

Market rent means nothing anymore either. Because two identical properties beside each other could have a 50% difference in rent thanks to Covent.

murphaph

Lux23 wrote: »

I would imagine if its a new tenancy you can charge what you like, sure who would be able to complain about it anyway?

The new rulez sayz you can't charge what you like. I agree that initially this will be difficult to enforce as the RTB won't know what your previous rent was as very few if any LLs update that information when the rent is increased.

You could however find yourself in hot water if your new tenant decided to make it his business to find out the previous rent and take you to the RTB cleaners for "overcharging".

Jayesdiem

What if the new tenancy agreement has been signed already?

brownej

This law is being rushed in because of the lack of availability of rental properties and the spiralling prices.
Unfortunately it looks as if some of the landlord here will have "missed the boat" to get "market rate" for their properties.
This whole situation is just going to get messier. The supply is going to be further restricted due to increases in short term lets and air B&Bs.
The landlords that did manage to increase their rent to the max will also be in trouble. One can argue that these rental levels are becoming unaffordable and renters have no choice but to accept the new terms but then not abide by them. This will lead to a deluge of people unable to pay the rent and large amounts of overholding once terminations have been issued. The PRTB had better increase their staffing levels....
Its already started to affect the wider economy with companies reviewing their Dublin operations as their staff can't afford to live here or just cant move here as they can't find places to live.
The short term huge hikes in rent we have seen recently may yet prove to be very short sighted for small landlords. All the more reason I suppose to get out now!

KyussBeeshop

murphaph wrote: »

Nope. Not even sure a stand alone house requires change of use for this. According to the citizens information crowd only a B&B with more than 4 bedrooms requires PP. Not sure what exactly an airbnb is legally classed as and why it would be different to a B&B (it's the B without the second B at the end of the day).

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/planning_permission/planning_perm_altering_a_house.html

The Temple Bar property that sparked the lawsuit with the council, only had two beds - here, the deputy planning officer Mary Conway, has said:

"In any other case that seems very similar or identical - that is where somebody has an apartment and is now letting it out on a continual basis as a holiday let and where they are not resident, then based on this ruling we will consider that would be a material change of use and therefore if permission has not been granted then that person then may be liable to enforcement proceedings.”

“If you’re doing it full time on a continuous basis - in this case it was happening for upwards of a year - then we would consider that to be a material change of use,” she said.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/simon-coveney-to-give-councils-clarity-after-airbnb-ruling-1.2836660

Sounds pretty much identical to what people are planning to do in this thread.

So, people in this thread need to get planning permission before they move to continual (> 1 year) use of AirBnB - otherwise that would be an illegal change of use of their property.

Are people here planning to do this, to seek planning permission?

Graham

KyussBeeshop wrote: »

So, people in this thread need to get planning permission before they move to continual (> 1 year) use of AirBnB - otherwise that would be an illegal change of use of their property.

Are people here planning to do this, to seek planning permission?

That would be my understanding too but so far it appears that DCC are taking a very relaxed approach to enforcing it.

It's looking more likely that other influences could have a much bigger/faster impact on AirBnB properties, particularly:

1) OMCs enforcing provisions in head leases that forbid holiday/short-term lettings.
2) AirBnB changing their own rules to limit rentals to a specific number of days per year (or similar restrictions). Something they have done in several other jurisdictions where it appears legislation could force their hand.

Either of these factors could instantly cut the legs from under a large number of AirBnB landlords and force them all back to the long-term rental market in a rather large lump.

KyussBeeshop

True, but worth concentrating on the fact that it is still illegal without planning permission - and that in the context of this thread, it does not seem likely that many landlords discussing AirBnB, are going to be seeking permission.

76544567

I'll be happy to take 90 days on airbnb and leave it empty for the rest of the year.
Or just to rent it to someone who is not going to live in it and they can do airbnb or whatever they like with it.
I'm.not renting to the RTB anymore.

murphaph

KyussBeeshop wrote: »

The Temple Bar property that sparked the lawsuit with the council, only had two beds - here, the deputy planning officer Mary Conway, has said:

"In any other case that seems very similar or identical - that is where somebody has an apartment and is now letting it out on a continual basis as a holiday let and where they are not resident, then based on this ruling we will consider that would be a material change of use and therefore if permission has not been granted then that person then may be liable to enforcement proceedings.”[/url]

Sounds pretty much identical to what people are planning to do in this thread.

So, people in this thread need to get planning permission before they move to continual (> 1 year) use of AirBnB - otherwise that would be an illegal change of use of their property.

Are people here planning to do this, to seek planning permission?

The council specifically said "apartment" and I specifically said "house".

murphaph

Graham wrote: »

Either of these factors could instantly cut the legs from under a large number of AirBnB landlords and force them all back to the long-term rental market in a rather large lump.

There's half a dozen "short term flat rental" Facebook groups for Berlin alone, where airbnb is banned. These have simply replaced airbnb.

Graham

murphaph wrote: »

The council specifically said "apartment" and I specifically said "house".

I can't help but think planning permission applies to houses as much as it does apartments.

Graham

murphaph wrote: »

There's half a dozen "short term flat rental" Facebook groups for Berlin alone, where airbnb is banned. These have simply replaced airbnb.

and I'm sure there would be similar groups setup if Dublin/Ireland went down a similar path. I can't imagine they would have anything like the reach of AirBnB nor would they help in developments where OMCs/management companies were doing the enforcing.

murphaph

Graham wrote: »

I can't help but think planning permission applies to houses as much as it does apartments.

Of course but even starting a B&B with less than 5 beds seems to require no planning permission. Even if it did, it's as good as unenforceable. Councils like Kilkenny don't even have 1 full time enforcement officer! And somebody would need to lodge a complaint first for there to be anything to investigate.

Apartments are different and if I had one I wouldn't impose on the other residents by turning my unit into an airbnb. A house with it's own access is completely different and none of my neighbours' business so long as the guests keep themselves to themselves. ☺

murphaph

Graham wrote: »

and I'm sure there would be similar groups setup if Dublin/Ireland went down a similar path. I can't imagine they would have anything like the reach of AirBnB nor would they help in developments where OMCs/management companies were doing the enforcing.

Agreed but if airbnb is not operating then fewer LL will go down the short term letting route to begin with, so you'll have less competition if you do.