Handing back the Leaf

Villain

After just over 2 years and 30,000km I'm handing back my leaf on PCP under the half rule clause.

I had put down €4500 along monthly payments of €468 with a hope of €1,000 or €2,000 equity at the end to go again in a newer spec Leaf. Mine is a 24kw SVE with 3.3kw charge.

While I like the car driving an EV has been interesting I'm going back to an ICE.

A few reasons really, the cost savings if you intend on trading up every few years aren't enough to put up with the range limitations.

With my mileage I was spending about €25 a month on night rate charging so a Petrol won't break me.

The whole ESB Ecar charging plans along with their submission to the CER means using public chargers in the future are going to be a rip off and not what the ESB had advertised at the time I bought my car, pay per unit on your suppliers bill was the plan now they want unregulated charge per minute and charge for access!!

That along with quality of the charging points and the enforcement of parking etc is just a pain for the odd long journey.

Battery improvements are slow, Nissan only going to 30kw 3 years on is just poor and even at that the residual value is gone to pot with no one wanting a 24kw now and 3 years time no one will want a 30kw one.

Once they get to 60kw I think that issue around residual value will calm down.

So best of luck to all who continue to drive EV or are buying one, it's fun driving just not so much fun dealing with the so called association and groupings along with ecars.

peposhi

Villain wrote: »

After just over 2 years and 30,000km I'm handing back my leaf on PCP under the half rule clause.

I had put down €4500 along monthly payments of €468 with a hope of €1,000 or €2,000 equity at the end to go again in a newer spec Leaf. Mine is a 24kw SVE with 3.3kw charge.

While I like the car driving an EV has been interesting I'm going back to an ICE.

A few reasons really, the cost savings if you intend on trading up every few years aren't enough to put up with the range limitations.

With my mileage I was spending about €25 a month on night rate charging so a Petrol won't break me.

The whole ESB Ecar charging plans along with their submission to the CER means using public chargers in the future are going to be a rip off and not what the ESB had advertised at the time I bought my car, pay per unit on your suppliers bill was the plan now they want unregulated charge per minute and charge for access!!

That along with quality of the charging points and the enforcement of parking etc is just a pain for the odd long journey.

Battery improvements are slow, Nissan only going to 30kw 3 years on is just poor and even at that the residual value is gone to pot with no one wanting a 24kw now and 3 years time no one will want a 30kw one.

Once they get to 60kw I think that issue around residual value will calm down.

So best of luck to all who continue to drive EV or are buying one, it's fun driving just not so much fun dealing with the so called association and groupings along with ecars.

Pity it did not work out for you!

Best of luck

KCross

The way PCP is sold here is partly to blame. The idea that you would have equity to go again after 3 years was never going to happen. I can see more people like you who expected equity to go the same as you... back to ICE. Which is a pity. As you said, your mileage wasnt enough to give you the savings to get another deposit.

The charging for charging thing is unknown but I wouldnt hand a car back because of it unless you rely on the network.... which would be a mistake in itself.

I dont share your view on the 60kWh and residuals. The 60kWh will be alot more expensive than a 30kWh is today so the residuals will drop but nothing like people expect it will. I think some people think that when 40,50, 60kWh comes out they will be able to buy it at €30k. Thats just not going to happen(IMO).

The 24kWh will be less desirable and hard to sell alright but I'd say the bottom of the range will probably be 30kWh for a long time and then you pay a premium for extra kWh above that. A 60kWh could be €40k+(who knows).... but thats not an everymans car so the 30kWh will still have value.... think of the 30kWh as todays 1.0ltr petrol runabout.

Villain

KCross wrote: »

The charging for charging thing is unknown but I wouldnt hand a car back because of it unless you rely on the network.... which would be a mistake in itself.

My point was they changed the goal posts, when I was buying my car their site said:


Their submission to the CER means they want to do the exact opposite now and be the end user with no regulation on price.

KCross wrote: »

I dont share your view on the 60kWh and residuals. The 60kWh will be alot more expensive than a 30kWh is today so the residuals will drop but nothing like people expect it will. I think some people think that when 40,50, 60kWh comes out they will be able to buy it at €30k. Thats just not going to happen(IMO).

The 24kWh will be less desirable and hard to sell alright but I'd say the bottom of the range will probably be 30kWh for a long time and then you pay a premium for extra kWh above that. A 60kWh could be €40k+(who knows).... but thats not an everymans car so the 30kWh will still have value.... think of the 30kWh as todays 1.0ltr petrol runabout.

The reported price increase of the Zoe for the 45kw would suggest otherwise and the Model 3 price with 60kw will shake that market up.

unkel

Villain wrote: »

After just over 2 years and 30,000km I'm handing back my leaf on PCP under the half rule clause.

I had put down €4500 along monthly payments of €468.

Your reasons don't seem to make a lot of sense to me. You're doing a substantial mileage, your fuel costs (at night rates charging at home) are only a fraction of fossil fuel and public charging is still free. Maintenance is near nothing, tax and insurance are cheap.

And you've spent €16k paying for the car in the last 2 years. Money down the drain. Ouch :eek:

You've lost huge amounts in depreciation and cost of credit so far, but these are going to be less going forward while your other savings would still be there if you kept the car

If you don't like it, you don't like it, but from an economical point of view, handing it back makes no sense at all!

KCross

I hadnt seen that eCars wording before, cause I didnt buy new, but they really did overstep their remit by stating that. You are right there.

Do you rely on the network though? I rarely use it so even if they charge alot for it I'll either take the diesel or just suck it up the few times I need it.


Whats the reported price for the 45kW Zoe relative to what the "old" Zoe is? Is it a straight comparison. I thought the Zoe had battery rental only up to now so thats a bit harder to compare.

Model 3 60kWh.... what price do you expect/hope that to be pitched at in Ireland?

Villain

unkel wrote: »

Your reasons don't seem to make a lot of sense to me. You're doing a substantial mileage, your fuel costs (at night rates charging at home) are only a fraction of fossil fuel and public charging is still free. Maintenance is near nothing, tax and insurance are cheap.

And you've spent €16k paying for the car in the last 2 years. Money down the drain. Ouch :eek:

You've lost huge amounts in depreciation and cost of credit so far, but these are going to be less going forward while your other savings would still be there if you kept the car

If you don't like it, you don't like it, but from an economical point of view, handing it back makes no sense at all!

Well if you don't factor in the negatives around an EV then you are spot on but factor in having to change plans or missing out on something because of the restricted range it changes the outlook a little.

Handing it back now or in 10 months when the 3 years is up doesn't make any difference really except for fuel savings which aren't huge, about 800 a year.

My point was if I wait 10 months I will be in the same position, no equity and needing to raise a deposit again and paying the high Nissan APR rate for a car with only 6kw extra battery and it will in my opinion also depreciate like crazy.

Villain

KCross wrote: »

I hadnt seen that eCars wording before, cause I didnt buy new, but they really did overstep their remit by stating that. You are right there.

Do you rely on the network though? I rarely use it so even if they charge alot for it I'll either take the diesel or just suck it up the few times I need it.

I don't rely on it from a daily commute point of view but if my partner is away and I want to go somewhere at the weekend I have to use it which is only about 10 to 15 times a year but based on the ESB Ecar plans I would have to pay a monthly fee to have access and then pay wayyyy over the top for a fast charge.

KCross wrote: »

Whats the reported price for the 45kW Zoe relative to what the "old" Zoe is? Is it a straight comparison. I thought the Zoe had battery rental only up to now so thats a bit harder to compare.

An extra €3,000 is what I saw reported for the buy option, now that was Spain but it gives an idea.

KCross wrote: »

Model 3 60kWh.... what price do you expect/hope that to be pitched at in Ireland?

I would say with SEAI grant it would be around €36k

KCross

Villain wrote: »

I don't rely on it from a daily commute point of view but if my partner is away and I want to go somewhere at the weekend I have to use it which is only about 10 to 15 times a year but based on the ESB Ecar plans I would have to pay a monthly fee to have access and then pay wayyyy over the top for a fast charge.

The monthly charge is mad alright. I would just avoid the network rather than pay that. The reality is that the network costs alot to build/maintain and it wont be as cheap as we'd like it to be to use. Thinking we can pull the electricity at our domestic rates is nowhere near what we will actually get when charging does come in.... but the monthly fee is crazy.

Villain wrote: »

An extra €3,000 is what I saw reported for the buy option, now that was Spain but it gives an idea.

Nissan are still charging €3k to add 6kWh to the Leaf! €3k extra on the Zoe to go to 40+kWh sounds too good to be true but if it is then I'm happy to fall on my sword on that one.

Villain wrote: »

I would say with SEAI grant it would be around €36k

We're in the same ball park. I was thinking more like €40k. The Model 3 will be competing with BMW rather than Nissan I'd say. €36k or €40k... its still not a cheap everymans car. The 30kWh EV's will still have value to someone as demand rises.


As a matter of interest, how many payments have you left until your PCP runs out and what was your GMFV?

Is it really not worth your while hanging in until the PCP runs out? Buying a new ICE is just going to put you back on the year 1 levels of depreciation which are going to be huge again... unless you are going to buy 2nd hand?

KCross

Villain wrote: »

My point was if I wait 10 months I will be in the same position, no equity and needing to raise a deposit again and paying the high Nissan APR rate for a car with only 6kw extra battery and it will in my opinion also depreciate like crazy.

But havent you already done the heavy lifting in relation to depreciation... from your perspective it cant go below GMFV so why not just take yourself to that point and let the finance company suffer any additional depreciation and hand it back then.

It will also give you time to get a deposit built up on whatever your next move is (EV or ICE).

I guess if you are going to buy a cheap 2nd hand ICE then yea, I can understand pulling the plug now. You will save the repayments and interest costs. Going from a new EV to a cheap ICE could be hard!

Villain

My last payment would have been November 2017.

Keeping it and making some fuel savings would make more economic sense but not huge savings so I'm buying a new Megane GT in January with as much range as I like

unkel

Why don't you keep the car after the loan is finished? You don't have to take out another massive loan on a new car next year - costing you another €16k in the first two years!

If you keep the car after November '17, your opportunity costs will be very low and you'd still enjoy massive running costs savings over an ICE car

Villain wrote: »

Well if you don't factor in the negatives around an EV then you are spot on

Well you bought a brand new EV at great expense / with a very serious financial commitment 2 years ago. So surely you were well aware of all the negatives around EV? Or maybe it still disappointed in practice? Or maybe your circumstances have changed? And remember no one is charging for public points just yet. It would be crazy to make a decision now based on what might happen in this regard in the future imho

All that said, it's your monies, you can do as you please

And the more people abandon / dump their second hand EVs, the more likely it is for me to pick one up for a pittance

Villain

The GMFV cost will be far in excess of the value come Nov next year so I'd be mad to buy it for that money when I could walk away and buy same much cheaper on the open market.

My circumstances have changed a little so that is part of it and I can afford a 205HP Petrol car which I will enjoy more without the EV limitations.

The charging point is also an important one though, as the screenshot from 2014 shows what was planned when I bought an EV and what the ESB now want to move to couldn't be further apart.

I've engaged with Ecars and while Gareth is a smart fella and very decent to deal with what he is driving in terms of policy is a car crash that IMO will hold back EV's for many many years. Their submission to the CER proves they don't want an open market and if they are classed as the end user it will be a disaster and that's not me exaggerating!

Soarer

Why don't you buy a Bangernomics car for a couple of hundred euro, and keep it until November next year?

At least that way, you'll be able to see what's available EV wise. And you can be damn sure there'll still be scrappage deals going on, even on the Megane you're looking at now, so you'll have your deposit in the form of the banger you bought.

I'd be inclined to do it that way if for nothing else only pure spite against the dealer. As it stands, you're after paying €16k for a car that's only after depreciating maybe €10k?
He'll go away now and sell it for €15k? Meaning he'll be after sales totaling maybe €35k on the car.
Hang onto it for another 12 months, and he'll hardly make the guaranteed value in a sale.

Villain

The car has depreciate far more that 10K, it's worth about 10k come January so it has depreciated by about 18K.

Holding onto means making monthly payments, my new deal is a lower monthly cost.

Also scrappage deals aren't the value people think they, walk into garages like I did with no trade in and see what the actual selling price is, it's not what is advertised!

Soarer

Villain wrote: »

The car has depreciate far more that 10K, it's worth about 10k come January so it has depreciated by about 18K.

They drop that much? Jaysus!
If it's only worth €10k after 2 years, it must be near worthless after 3? So the GMFV must be only around €8k?

Villain wrote: »

Holding onto means making monthly payments, my new deal is a lower monthly cost.

Lower by much? Have you factored in the extra fuel/tax/insurance? How are you going to get the deposit you mentioned?

Villain wrote: »

Also scrappage deals aren't the value people think they, walk into garages like I did with no trade in and see what the actual selling price is, it's not what is advertised!

Oh I know that.
But the scrappage deal means you don't have to have a cash deposit. That's a big plus.

Villain

Soarer wrote: »

They drop that much? Jaysus!
If it's only worth €10k after 2 years, it must be near worthless after 3? So the GMFV must be only around €8k?


Lower by much? Have you factored in the extra fuel/tax/insurance? How are you going to get the deposit you mentioned?



Oh I know that.
But the scrappage deal means you don't have to have a cash deposit. That's a big plus.

Well it won't be worth much more than 10k from what I can see.

The monthly payments are only a few euro a month cheaper and yep insurance will go up and so will fuel but that's not a problem for me

Soarer

Seems strange that you chose an EV at all, since buying and running a new ICE isn't a problem for you.

KCross

Villain wrote: »

My last payment would have been November 2017.

Keeping it and making some fuel savings would make more economic sense but not huge savings so I'm buying a new Megane GT in January with as much range as I like

What will the buy price of the GT be?
What will the GMFV be after 3yrs?

Villain

I didn't just buy an EV to save money, I mean I hardly would have bought the SVE model if that was the case!

I work in tech sector and the concept appealed to me and I'm sure I will drive one again in the years ahead, we just aren't there yet in my opinion

Villain

KCross wrote: »

What will the buy price of the GT be?
What will the GMFV be after 3yrs?

Around 30k and 12k

unkel

Soarer wrote: »

But the scrappage deal means you don't have to have a cash deposit.

No it doesn't

It's just a marketing tool. If you come in without any car to trade in / scrap, you should get at least the scrappage deal as a cash discount.

Villain wrote: »

Also scrappage deals aren't the value people think they, walk into garages like I did with no trade in and see what the actual selling price is, it's not what is advertised!

+1

Soarer

unkel wrote: »

No it doesn't

It's just a marketing tool. If you come in without any car to trade in / scrap, you should get at least the scrappage deal as a cash discount.

If you're going the PCP route, which is what the OP did, then you need a deposit.

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

And the more people abandon / dump their second hand EVs, the more likely it is for me to pick one up for a pittance

Exactly - if it wasn't for the popularity of PCP in UK/IRL, I probably would have just continued to drive the little TDCi diesel I had (as the ex-pcp cars have hit the market with the thick end of the wedge of depreciation already dropped).

It's natural that we are all looking at whats coming up ahead with 30kwh, 40 & 60etc. However, as others have stated, these won't come to market cheap initially. I intend to put up with the shortcomings of the 24kwh, skip the 30kwh and go straight to a minimum 40kwh when the pricepoint is right (2nd hand - i dont buy new).


I wasn't sure at the outset but I've come to the opinion that there will still be a market/residual value for this 24kwh when I'm done with it (bearing in mind, I bought a 3 year old for 9k+ .....so residual downwards from that pricepoint). For much smaller money still, an older 24kwh Leaf should very well suit someone scooting around the city on school or shop runs or short commutes (as a second car most likely)....in which scenario they'll be charging at home overnight.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

What will the buy price of the GT be?
What will the GMFV be after 3yrs?

Villain wrote: »

Around 30k and 12k

About the same as the deal you did on the Leaf then which was €28k and €11k... correct?

Every car will depreciate 50% or so in 3 years.

Come back to us in Jan 2020 and let us know if the GT fared much better

Villain

KCross wrote: »

About the same as the deal you did on the Leaf then which was €28k and €11k... correct?

Every car will depreciate 50% or so in 3 years.

Come back to us in Jan 2020 and let us know if the GT fared much better

Yep about the same, my decision as I have said is not based on pure economics, that is juts one part.

Basically the range limitations and when you factor in depreciation the low savings mean an ICE is better fit for me for next few years.

unkel

isnottheword wrote: »

I wasn't sure at the outset but I've come to the opinion that there will still be a market/residual value for this 24kwh when I'm done with it

Exactly the same here. It makes total sense as a low mileage school run / shopping trolley / going to mass car even when the range would be limited to say only 30-40km (as long as this is reliable)

Not sure if the people who would suit it most (i.e. old people) would be easily convinced of this though

axe2grind

unkel wrote: »

Not sure if the people who would suit it most (i.e. old people) would be easily convinced of this though

There are exceptions :eek:

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

Not sure if the people who would suit it most (i.e. old people) would be easily convinced of this though

Agree - it would suit that demographic group. However, will also suit as second car for stay at home mothers, etc.

jprboy

I suspect that was the OP who has just finished talking to Matt Cooper and Michael Sheridan on The Last Word re subject of this thread.

jprboy

^^^^^
I also suspect Mad_Lad was one of those who texted in........

Villain

It was me

KCross

Villain wrote: »

It was me

It certainly was no harm to give eCars and the government a kicking! Well done on highlighting that.

My fuel savings are twice what yours are and I bought 2nd hand so I won't have your depreciation so your experience isn't the same for everyone but I suppose someone has to buy new for the likes of me to buy 2nd hand.

Good luck with the Megane.

Villain

Cheers

monkeysnapper

Villain wrote: »

It was me

Can I ask what your overall impression was of car , and will you miss leaf .

You obviously won't miss the range anxiety but other than that ??

I thought you spoke well as I said in your Facebook post but would have liked to have had at least another EV owner for balance on ownership

Villain

monkeysnapper wrote: »

Can I ask what your overall impression was of car , and will you miss leaf .

You obviously won't miss the range anxiety but other than that ??

I thought you spoke well as I said in your Facebook post but would have liked to have had at least another EV owner for balance on ownership

I had the top spec SVE, beautiful car inside and lovely to drive, if it had a 60kw battery it would be a super car.

If 24kw or now 30kw covers 90% of your requirements and you can endure the issues around public charge points and you are buying second hand or depreciation isn't an issue then it's perfect.

BoatMad

I dont see the issue with depreciation , its not dissimilar to many ICE cars,

There are reasons for and against EVs, but this isn't one of of them. residuals presently are affected by the presence of cheaper 24Kwh leafs in the UK, that situation is temporary

BoatMad

Villain wrote: »

It was me

which day did you do the interview ?

jprboy

jprboy wrote: »

^^^^^
I also suspect Mad_Lad was one of those who texted in........

Nope sorry, my time is limited , I wasn't even aware of Villan's shenanigans until I went onto the IEVOA FB Group this evening.

I have had very limited time to keep track of all the threads the last while. Perhaps when I'm back at work Saturday I can post more.

BoatMad

I think the comment , which has been made by a few people, that the pace of battery capacity is rendering the older models residuals poor, is misleading. Right now for the last few months we have a peculiar situation where 24Kwh Leafs ( and only that model ) is available in reasonable quantities in the UK. There isn't enough of a 2nd hand market to absorb all those Leafs that came off of PCPs in the UK in one go. ( there was a very cheap PCP initially in the UK and it attracted a lot of sales ) . This has lead to a glut of 24 Kwh cars.

This is what is driving down curent residuals. its not a function of the technology , its a function of too many UK imports ( we have seen this before )

Pesonally the VRT rebate should be limited to Irish market cars , as its in effect tax payers money fore gone and shouldn't be provided for 2nd hand imports. Hopefully that avenue will be closed off ( any Brexit will likely kill it anyway )

Villain

Compare the GMFV on a similar priced Petrol or diesel on Nissan finance calculator to that of the leaf, the leaf has much lower GMFV as they have realized depreciation is an issue.

However depreciation is only 1 of three reasons I cited, the complete change in policy by ESB ecars and state of the infrastructure are just as much the reason I'm walking away for now

Villain

BoatMad wrote: »

which day did you do the interview ?

It was live yesterday

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

I think the comment , which has been made by a few people, that the pace of battery capacity is rendering the older models residuals poor, is misleading. Right now for the last few months we have a peculiar situation where 24Kwh Leafs ( and only that model ) is available in reasonable quantities in the UK. There isn't enough of a 2nd hand market to absorb all those Leafs that came off of PCPs in the UK in one go. ( there was a very cheap PCP initially in the UK and it attracted a lot of sales ) . This has lead to a glut of 24 Kwh cars.

This is what is driving down curent residuals. its not a function of the technology , its a function of too many UK imports ( we have seen this before )

Pesonally the VRT rebate should be limited to Irish market cars , as its in effect tax payers money fore gone and shouldn't be provided for 2nd hand imports. Hopefully that avenue will be closed off ( any Brexit will likely kill it anyway )

I agree with the general thrust of your post but not the get rid of the VRT rebate on 2nd hand imports bit.

If you get rid of that you are giving Irish dealers an advantage and we know when that happens in Ireland we get fleeced. Having access to other markets is competition and we should not reduce competition. I'd also suspect it would be against EU rules to do it as it is protecting your own industry.

Brexit is what it is and that could have an effect regardless.

philstar

OP, in your time of driving an EC..were you ever left stranded or had any difficult times trying to get recharged?

Villain

philstar wrote: »

OP, in your time of driving an EC..were you ever left stranded or had any difficult times trying to get recharged?

I didn't rely on public charging too much, I did get delayed and miss appointments on a few occasions when I did need to use public chargers

Soarer

Just looked at the Nissan calculator there, and they give a GMFV of €7820 for an SVE Leaf, regardless of whether it's the 24 or 30kwh version.

That can't be right surely.

Edit: Just did the same, but added every extra available. Came to over €6k in extras, but the GMFV stayed the same at €7820.

isnottheword

BoatMad wrote: »

Pesonally the VRT rebate should be limited to Irish market cars , as its in effect tax payers money fore gone and shouldn't be provided for 2nd hand imports. Hopefully that avenue will be closed off ( any Brexit will likely kill it anyway )

Firstly, VRT as implemented by the Irish Government has been found to be illegal. They still pursue it - due to the revenue involved and are quite happy to pay any fines the Europeans have enforced.

Secondly, why the hell should the state be taking protective measures from an industry lobby that is responsible for sales only. We don't have a car industry (in the manufacturing sense) - it's ridiculous.

Thirdly, why should the people of this state not benefit from the upside of an issue in the UK re. second hand cars? This has not started with EV's. This has been going on for donkeys years with all manner of cars (and despite VRT taking the sheen off it - for ICEs which are subject to the criminal VRT rate). In tandem with that, it's simply not the case that this has come about ONLY because of a glut of cars in the UK - Irish dealers gouge. There's nothing stopping them from selling UK imports themselves (and many do - but they dont sell them anywhere near UK prices in most cases. Not saying they shouldnt build in a margin - but the margin is often unreasonable).

Villain

Soarer wrote: »

Just looked at the Nissan calculator there, and they give a GMFV of €7820 for an SVE Leaf, regardless of whether it's the 24 or 30kwh version.

That can't be right surely.

Edit: Just did the same, but added every extra available. Came to over €6k in extras, but the GMFV stayed the same at €7820.

Ya the calculator doesn't change GMFV for extras which is normally ok but when the extra is a bigger battery it is a bit skewed!

Soarer

Villain wrote: »

Ya the calculator doesn't change GMFV for extras which is normally ok but when the extra is a bigger battery it is a bit skewed!

Suppose it's good if you plan on keeping the car at the end.

jprboy

jprboy wrote: »

^^^^^
I also suspect Mad_Lad was one of those who texted in........

Deleted User wrote: »

Nope sorry, my time is limited , I wasn't even aware of Villan's shenanigans until I went onto the IEVOA FB Group this evening.

I have had very limited time to keep track of all the threads the last while. Perhaps when I'm back at work Saturday I can post more.

Apologies, based on the time the poster said they had the car (almost 2 years and the fact they had covered almost 60,000 km in that time I thought it fitted your profile perfectly !

Del2005

isnottheword wrote: »

Firstly, VRT as implemented by the Irish Government has been found to be illegal. They still pursue it - due to the revenue involved and are quite happy to pay any fines the Europeans have enforced.

VRT ins't an illegal anything. Excise duty was banned under the single market so in order to replace the money lost a tax for registering the vehicles introduced which was the same as the excise duty. Plenty of EU countries have the equivalent of VRT in some it's lower, the UK is IIRC £50, and some higher, look at Holland.