Why is VRT tolerated by the Irish people and by the European courts?

Commotion Ocean

Below are the current rates for VRT (may not be an exhaustive list).

CO2 emissions levels VRT rates
Band A1 0 - 80 grams per kilometre 14% of OMSP (minimum €280)
Band A2 81 – 100 grams per kilometre 15% of OMSP (minimum €300)
Band A3 101 – 110 grams per kilometre 16% of OMSP (minimum €320)
Band A4 111 – 120 grams per kilometre 17% of OMSP (minimum €340)

Vehicle registration tax is essentially an import tax because it applies as a percentage of the Irish market value of the car.

You could be given a car as a gift from your friend or family in Malta, Cyprus or UK of a RHD Beamer etc., but to import this into the state and get a registration plate, you'll have to fork over a percentage of the value of the car.

Why can't VRT just be a flat rate of a few hundred Euro for simply an administration fee? It might be called a "Vehicle Registration Tax", but it's essentially an import tax in all but name and is effectively discriminating against EU imports over Irish cars (illegal under EU law).

This thread might be better in legal discussion.

neris

Has anyone or any corporate/industry body challenged the legallityof vrt in the courts up as far as europe?

Supergurrier

No idea, it's a complete joke.

Just an inventive revenue stream lumped onto joe public.

The Bishop Basher

I read before that they can do it because we don't have a car industry and so there's no competition..

But i suppose the honest answer is they do it cause they can..

Charles Babbage

Sure if there wasn't this tax there would be another one and as introducing even a reasonable new tax in this country leads to all sort of crap. so you might as well leave it alone.

kindalen

its more about Irish car dealers bribing idiot politicians to keep cartel going.

1huge1

My guess is that its essentially a tariff designed to stop people importing cars because our domestic industry is overprices and they worry that they will be driven out of business if a true free market existed for importing cars.

Fair enough, there is some admin in terms of registering it on the Irish system, but I can't see how thats anything more than a bit of paperwork.

Commotion Ocean

kindalen wrote: »

its more about Irish car dealers bribing idiot politicians to keep cartel going.

This country is riddled with African-style corruption. It'd give the Mafia and Berlusconni a run for their money.

emo72

"which hospital do you want to close?" someone might get this reference.

Oafley Jones

Swanner wrote: »

I read before that they can do it because we don't have a car industry and so there's no competition..

But i suppose the honest answer is they do it cause they can..

That's it. VRT would be illegal if it was being used to favour a domestic product. We don't have a car industry so it's fair game. Don't worry though. With brexit you'll soon also have to pay VAT on ALL RHD cars from our closest neighbour. Ffs.

Renegade Mechanic

Actually iirc the EU courts told Ireland they were taking the piss with taxation on new vehicles and that the VAT application was in some form of breach of a law of theirs. So they changed the way the tax was applied, separated it, made it more and called it "VRT" - which courts accepted happily enough.

Though it's been years since I looked into that, so stand for plenty of correction

It is not discriminatory as there are no 'Irish' cars - all cars are imported.

If say Ford were still assembling cars here and the tax wasn't levied on them that would be discrimination and illegal.

Atlantic Dawn

Oafley Jones wrote: »

That's it. VRT would be illegal if it was being used to favour a domestic product. We don't have a car industry so it's fair game. Don't worry though. With brexit you'll soon also have to pay VAT on ALL RHD cars from our closest neighbour. Ffs.

Yes if there's no open market with UK after Brexit the tariff will be about 10% like it is from Japan. Other options would be Cyprus or Malta but the transport costs would be prohibitive.

Commotion Ocean

Oafley Jones wrote: »

That's it. VRT would be illegal if it was being used to favour a domestic product. We don't have a car industry so it's fair game. Don't worry though. With brexit you'll soon also have to pay VAT on ALL RHD cars from our closest neighbour. Ffs.

What about imports from Cyprus or Malta?

Atlantic Dawn

I think cars are the only item that an Irish resident can't freely purchase from one EU country back to Ireland. I suppose in theory you can if you don't want to drive it on the public roads as you won't require a number plate, you could import a car freely for track use.

Oafley Jones

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Yes if there's no open market with UK after Brexit the tariff will be about 10% like it is from Japan. Other options would be Cyprus or Malta but the transport costs would be prohibitive.

What rich pickings we'd have there though.

Commotion Ocean

Oafley Jones wrote: »

What rich pickings we'd have there though.

Just what I was thinking. Any chance they'd move here so they wouldn't have to apply VAT to our European neighbours?

Atlantic Dawn

Oafley Jones wrote: »

What rich pickings we'd have there though.

Yes neither are renouned for having flash cars.

jimmycrackcorm

dfeo wrote: »

Why can't VRT just be a flat rate of a few hundred Euro for simply an administration fee? It might be called a "Vehicle Registration Tax", but it's essentially an import tax in all but name and is effectively discriminating against EU imports over Irish cars (illegal under EU law).

Care to argue why so much excise duty is added to cigarettes also?

colm_mcm

This thread has been done before but I may as well point out that lots of other European countries have registration taxes with some much more severe than ours.

cml387

Here we go again.

Danish VRT is 105% the cost of the car by the way.

TanFlash

Car dealers would prefer NOT to have VRT. They would sell more cars, cost of change would be cheaper for trading up. Absolute bollox that people think there is a cartel. It's an open market , loads of choice.

Atlantic Dawn

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Care to argue why so much excise duty is added to cigarettes also?

You can head to another EU country and bring back lots of cigarettes with no excise duty charged in Ireland.

grogi

dfeo wrote: »

Why can't VRT just be a flat rate of a few hundred Euro for simply an administration fee? It might be called a "Vehicle Registration Tax", but it's essentially an import tax in all but name and is effectively discriminating against EU imports over Irish cars (illegal under EU law).

It is not illegal, because VRT is applied to new cars as well.

Many countries have similar taxes. I know for sure it exists in Poland - and it is also based on market value of the car.

Commotion Ocean

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

You can head to another EU country and bring back lots of cigarettes with no excise duty charged in Ireland.

Although if the governments henchmen customs thieves officers believe they are not for "personal" use, they'll seize them.

Duty has already been paid when you purchase fags / drink in the EU / EEA, so cannot legally be applied again when bringing them into Ireland. Although, if you bring in ridiculous amounts, you risk having them seized as you will be suspected of selling them.

That being said, custom officers and Gardái are probably taking the fags and drink home and enjoying it themselves. We are living in one of the most corrupt countries in the World. We are extremely high in the corruption index.

AlfaZen

There should be no need to register a car in Ireland if it has already been registered in another EU country. There should be a common European wide registration system.

colm_mcm

Spain won't have the same reg plates as Poland because Ireland is corrupt.

whiterebel

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Actually iirc the EU courts told Ireland they were taking the piss with taxation on new vehicles and that the VAT application was in some form of breach of a law of theirs. So they changed the way the tax was applied, separated it, made it more and called it "VRT" - which courts accepted happily enough.

Though it's been years since I looked into that, so stand for plenty of correction

Originally it was a Duty that was charged on new cars, which wasn't acceptable to the EU on EU manufactured cars. They changed it to a Tax (VRT) which was acceptable.

eeguy

We are living in one of the most corrupt countries in the World. We are extremely high in the corruption index.

We're 19 out of 168. Definitely not high. We're better than Japan, France and Spain.

pa990

Fado fado, when you brought a car back from England, you paid Vat and Duty.

It was deemed that vat should not be applied because vat had already been paid in am EEC state.
So vat went away for imports (except Jap imports, and anything else outside of the eec)*

Then duty was deemed illegal for car imports by the EEC /EC/EU. Circa 1993
That led to great rejoyce, with newspapers detailing how new car prices were going to drop by thousands of pounds. , mind you, there was a number of years allowed for it's fazeing out.

Well duty was removed, and immediately replaced with a Vehicle Registration Tax, which was calculated differently, but resulted in the exact same bottom figure.
This tax was deemed acceptable /appropriate /legal by Brussels.

And there you go.. It's a tax that is legal in the eyes of Brussels.
It's not going away, and if by chance it was to go the way of duty... Well, it'll be replaced just as quick as duty was with VRT.


*There was a recent case taken re vat on non EU car imports, but it failed, the case was taken by a cork Jap import dealer who happens to be a brother of a cork judge

Ferrari3600

Apart from anything else, the idea of a tax on a tax doesn't sit well with me on principle.

Irish owners of 'high end' cars have always been treated as a cash-cows to be milked by the corrupt state.

pa990

[b]Ferrari[/b]3600 wrote: »

Apart from anything else, the idea of a tax on a tax doesn't sit well with me on principle.

Irish owners of 'high end' cars have always been treated as a cash-cows to be milked by the corrupt state.

A 2L diesel is hardly high end

pa990

Ferrari3600 wrote: »

Apart from anything else, the idea of a tax on a tax doesn't sit well with me on principle.

Irish owners of 'high end' cars have always been treated as a cash-cows to be milked by the corrupt state.

I completely agree, even anyone wanting to spend money on their car is seen as a cash cow.

Premium petrol was taxed out of existence.

Every budget a few p was put on petrol, and even more p was put on premium petrol.

Ferrari3600

cml387 wrote: »

Here we go again.

Danish VRT is 105% the cost of the car by the way.

So the Danes are getting screwed even more than us?

Is that the point you're making?

BoatMad

pa990 wrote: »

Fado fado, when you brought a car back from England, you paid Vat and Duty.

It was deemed that vat should not be applied because vat had already been paid in am EEC state.
So vat went away for imports (except Jap imports, and anything else outside of the eec)*

Then duty was deemed illegal for car imports by the EEC /EC/EU. Circa 1993
That led to great rejoyce, with newspapers detailing how new car prices were going to drop by thousands of pounds. , mind you, there was a number of years allowed for it's fazeing out.

Well duty was removed, and immediately replaced with a Vehicle Registration Tax, which was calculated differently, but resulted in the exact same bottom figure.
This tax was deemed acceptable /appropriate /legal by Brussels.

And there you go.. It's a tax that is legal in the eyes of Brussels.
It's not going away, and if by chance it was to go the way of duty... Well, it'll be replaced just as quick as duty was with VRT.


*There was a recent case taken re vat on non EU car imports, but it failed, the case was taken by a cork Jap import dealer who happens to be a brother of a cork judge

Err , the vat on " new means of transport " ( boats , planes, trains , cars etc ) is always paid in the country of destination not the country of purchase.

Vrt arise because before the single European act and vat harmonisation , Ireland had excise duty on imported cars. This was ruled contrary to eu free movement of goods , so instead a a registration change /tax was introduced. So you can buy a car excise free. But getting it registered costs a bomb

Many eu countries have similar taxes. Spain has a " matriculation" tax on cars for example as well as vat.

Ferrari3600

pa990 wrote: »

I completely agree, even anyone wanting to spend money on their car is seen as a cash cow.

Premium petrol was taxed out of existence.

Every budget a few p was put on petrol, and even more p was put on premium petrol.

I think possibly you are thinking back to the 1980s/1990s?

These days, our petrol is cheaper than in the UK - mind you, that isn't saying much.

Basically, I wouldn't disagree with your point - car ownership is ludicrously expensive in Ireland, due to government policy.

pa990

BoatMad wrote: »

Err , the vat on " new means of transport " ( boats , planes, trains , cars etc ) is always paid in the country of destination not the country of purchase.

Vrt arise because before the single European act and vat harmonisation , Ireland had excise duty on imported cars. This was ruled contrary to eu free movement of goods , so instead a a registration change /tax was introduced. So you can buy a car excise free. But getting it registered costs a bomb

Many eu countries have similar taxes. Spain has a " matriculation" tax on cars for example as well as vat.

But vat at one time was payable on second hand imports. That is no longer the case.

Hence my opening two words

BoatMad

pa990 wrote: »

But vat at one time was payable on second hand imports. That is no longer the case.

Hence my opening two words

Before the SEA , All. vat was paid at point of entry on anything from any eu country

Charles Babbage

pa990 wrote: »

But vat at one time was payable on second hand imports. That is no longer the case.

No matter, there will soon be all these things on UK cars again as Britain becomes Great again and moves into the sunny uplands of freedom.

Ferrari3600

Charles Babbage wrote: »

No matter, there will soon be all these things on UK cars again as Britain becomes Great again and moves into the sunny uplands of freedom.

That argument cuts both ways.

BoatMad

Charles Babbage wrote: »

No matter, there will soon be all these things on UK cars again as Britain becomes Great again and moves into the sunny uplands of freedom.

I bet good money the uk will remain within the customs union of the EU. The Chanel islands are inside it and they never joined the EU.

Ferrari3600

BoatMad wrote: »

The Chanel islands are inside it and they never joined the EU.

Why is that?

BoatMad

Ferrari3600 wrote: »

Why is that?

Because that's what they negotiated, they never joined the EU , but they agreed to participate in the free movement of goods, even though they internally have no vat ( nor does the Canary Islands ) , Equally there ate territories within the EU, that are not within the customs union , Ceuta , and Gibraltor come to mind ( there are 7 territories )

Ferrari3600

BoatMad wrote: »

Because that's what they negotiated, they never joined the EU , but they agreed to participate in the free movement of goods, even though they internally have no vat ( nor does the Canary Islands ) , Equally there ate territories within the EU, that are not within the customs union , Ceuta , and Gibraltor come to mind ( there are 7 territories )

I don't know all that much about Gibraltar, and I don't know what you mean by 'Ceuta' , but as regards the Channel Islands specifically, I think you will find it wasn't exactly 'negotiated'.

Those places are used for tax frauds by high level connected people within the Brit establishment.

I have very good contacts in Jersey and in certain other Channel Islands, and they are telling me that the latest 'Governor-General' will be even more highly connected that the previous one.

We are possibly getting off-topic for this forum, but the problem we now face is that the populist rebellion is getting too, ehm, 'bigly', for the (provably corrupt) establishment to keep a lid on.

BoatMad

Ferrari3600 wrote: »

I don't know all that much about Gibraltar, and I don't know what you mean by 'Ceuta' , but as regards the Channel Islands specifically, I think you will find it wasn't exactly 'negotiated'.

We are perhaps getting slightly off-topic here.

Ceuta is a 18.5 Sqkm territory in Northern Africa roughly opposite gib , it's part of Spain but outside the EU customs union , unlike say Martinique , which while 3000 miles away in the carribean is however inside the EU customs union. !!

Channel Islands access to the single market is contained in protocol 3 of the U.K. Accession treaty.

The EU is nothing if not flexible.

Ferrari3600

BoatMad wrote: »

Ceuta is a 18.5 Sqkm territory in Northern Africa roughly opposite gib , it's part of Spain but outside the EU customs union , unlike say Martinique , which while 3000 miles away in the carribean is however inside the EU customs union. !!

Channel Islands access to the single market is contained in protocol 3 of the U.K. Accession treaty.

The EU is nothing if not flexible.

Interesting, didn't know that!

Tis almost as though they are trying to create an empire....

Bigus

dfeo wrote: »

This country is riddled with African-style corruption. It'd give the Mafia and Berlusconni a run for their money.

Can you give examples of the last time a traffic corps cop in Ireland pocketed a fine paid by you, or any example of the irish revenue taking illegal taxes or property belonging to you and didn't offer an official receipt to any money's you handed over ?

Commotion Ocean

Bigus wrote: »

Can you give examples of the last time a traffic corps cop in Ireland pocketed a fine paid by you, or any example of the irish revenue taking illegal taxes or property belonging to you and didn't offer an official receipt to any money's you handed over ?

Cigarettes, alcohol and other contraband seized by Gardaí and customs are very often taken home for their own use. Ask for a certificate of destruction and you'll only make more trouble for yourself.

Robbo

There's been countless threads where I (and others) have explained why VRT is fundamentally sound so I'm not going to waste my time again. All the theories and stories have been done to death and the actions of a mercurial District Justice in Donegal aren't exactly a sound legal precedent.

However, those of you who get your legal advice from the Man In The Pub or Facebook, there's a very simple way you can put your vast legal knowledge to use, bringing down VRT and ushering a brave new world of cheap cars.

The EU Commission are the guardians of the Treaties and are generally responsible for taking infringement proceedings against member states. One wonderful feature is that they accept complaints from anyone. Anyone.

So man up and submit a complaint.

colm_mcm

Ferrari3600 wrote: »

So the Danes are getting screwed even more than us?

Is that the point you're making?

It's not just the Danes though. I can't speak for the poster you're quoting there but in my opinion VRT is a lot lower for the masses than it was in 2007. Nobody likes paying taxes obviously, but as long as you have expenditure on social welfare, social housing, public services etc you need to have money coming in.

cnocbui

While VRT is just an import tax - so much for the 'supposed' common market, another issue this touches upon is how VRT is based on CO2 emissions, not market value.

It has become abundantly clear that diesel emissions are a health hazard that will do you more harm than non-existent global warming ever will, to the point several European cities are moving to ban all diesels completely. Which is a good move. Faced with this, the government should have already ditched the idiocy perpetrated by that fool, Gormley, and gone back to a market value basis for VRT.

The same should have happened with respect to the stupid differential taxing of diesel fuel which still demonises petrol although it is a cleaner fuel with respect to human health.

Frankly, governments should just stop with using taxation as a tool to modify and influence behaviour.