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Legal taxi drivers who have never sat a driving test

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    #32
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,148 ✭✭✭plodder


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I think that many drivers of that vintage, whether they passed a test or not, would have a problem with the rules of the road (theory test), driving on motorways, roundabouts, and eyesight. There were no yellow boxes, no roundabouts or any motorways back then, and few traffic lights in most of the country.

    Drivers at (and over) 70 must have a medical check by a doctor, and that includes eyesight. Over 70 licences only last 3 years, and over 80 only are for one year. It would be a good idea to include a simple theory test.
    Again, I think the medical issue (eg deteriorating eye-sight) is one thing and that's covered pretty well by the testing requirement, but I think it's a stretch to say that such people might not be familiar with motorways or roundabouts etc. It's not like they suddenly appeared one day. They have been driving on them at least as long as the rest of us.

    Have to say also, I'm not overly impressed with the theory test. Considering my daughter (as mentioned on another thread) passed it some time before she started driving and had to learn everything from scratch when she started driving.

    As regards, middle aged people needing eye-tests, the typical situation there is that most people become presbyopic in middle age, which shouldn't affect driving.


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    #33
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,426 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    plodder wrote: »
    Again, I think the medical issue (eg deteriorating eye-sight) is one thing and that's covered pretty well by the testing requirement, but I think it's a stretch to say that such people might not be familiar with motorways or roundabouts etc. It's not like they suddenly appeared one day. They have been driving on them at least as long as the rest of us.

    Have to say also, I'm not overly impressed with the theory test. Considering my daughter (as mentioned on another thread) passed it some time before she started driving and had to learn everything from scratch when she started driving.

    As regards, middle aged people needing eye-tests, the typical situation there is that most people become presbyopic in middle age, which shouldn't affect driving.

    I live near St Vincent's Hospital and the number of people at the front of the queue turning right up Nutley Lane from the Merrion Road who do not move into the yellow box on a green light to trip the detector under the 'Wait Here' arrow and so cause the right turn sequence to miss. That is plain ignorant (in a nice way) driving. A decent driving course would eliminate this type of driving fault.

    I am sure there are lots of similar situation where knowledge of the rules of the road and good practice would improve driving standards.

    To a certain extent someone who passed their driving test 50 years ago may need retraining but would never admit it.


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    #34
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,817 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    jca wrote: »
    A driving test every 5 years? Seriously? 250 plus the cost of the test plus yearly Nct plus suitability. Wouldn't like to be a taxi driver in your little world...

    maybe not at every renewal then - you don't think taxi drivers driving standards should be assessed?


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    #35
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,148 ✭✭✭plodder


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I live near St Vincent's Hospital and the number of people at the front of the queue turning right up Nutley Lane from the Merrion Road who do not move into the yellow box on a green light to trip the detector under the 'Wait Here' arrow and so cause the right turn sequence to miss. That is plain ignorant (in a nice way) driving. A decent driving course would eliminate this type of driving fault.
    That's a bug bear of mine too. I really don't think elderly people are any worse though. Could be more a demographic thing around Nutley Lane/St Vincents.


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    #36
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,361 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I live near St Vincent's Hospital and the number of people at the front of the queue turning right up Nutley Lane from the Merrion Road who do not move into the yellow box on a green light to trip the detector under the 'Wait Here' arrow and so cause the right turn sequence to miss. That is plain ignorant (in a nice way) driving. A decent driving course would eliminate this type of driving fault.

    It's principally caused by ignorance of the difference between a solid green and a green 'up' (straight ahead) arrow. When people at that and lots of similar junctions (e.g. Donnybrook Church inbound) see a filter lamp to the right of the main green lamp, they automatically assume they have to wait at the stop line for the filter, even though they have a solid green lamp. In many cases they won't even budge off the stop line (let alone turn right) when the way is clear.


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    #37
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    "No motorways, very little roundabouts, very little traffic light, very little traffic - these dudes that availed of this CJ amnesty need to be sent on educational driving courses that they should pay for."

    How about that fact that they were there for the gradual introduction of motorways, the gradual introduction of roundabouts, traffic lights, traffic, etc. I'd say that gradual introduction actually made them better able to handle these road features.


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    #38
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,361 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    So a person of 17 gets their eyesight tested and they do not need another test until they are 70 years old. Now that is - well - a bit fantastic. Now it is well known (to me at least) that at 40 years, most people need glasses to read a telephone book.

    What has that got to do with driving? I can barely read anything on my mobile without reading glasses but when behind the wheel I can see every detail on the dashboard and beyond without glasses.


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    #39
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,218 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Drivers at (and over) 70 must have a medical check by a doctor, and that includes eyesight. Over 70 licences only last 3 years, and over 80 only are for one year. It would be a good idea to include a simple theory test.

    Problem is that family doctors seem very reluctant to take an OAP's mobility away especially in rural areas, regardless of the potential danger to the public. It should be an independent medical assessor.

    Judging by the driving of many vehicles displaying N-plates it's not easy to get enthusiastic about the behaviours of recent test passers, either... :(

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #40
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,619 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i mentioned here before a friend of my mother in law, who is unable to drive at night without using full beams. doesn't stop her from driving, seemingly.
    and another friend who cannot turn right in the car - i don't know whether it's a confidence/muscular/eyesight issue, but her usual drive she does using only left turns. and obviously drives a different route home, using only left turns.


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    #41
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,426 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    coylemj wrote: »
    What has that got to do with driving? I can barely read anything on my mobile without reading glasses but when behind the wheel I can see every detail on the dashboard and beyond without glasses.

    That maybe true for you but eyesight fails with age. There should be safety checks on people eyesight as they age to assess their ability to drive safely.

    Periodic testing is done for cars - some age less well than others, same should apply to eyesight.


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    #42
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    did you have to already hold a provisional to avail of the amnesty? if not, it's probable that there are people out there who own a full licence and have never even sat behind the wheel of a car.
    My late father "bought" all the categories when that amnesty came around. His driving licence had every single one but the only thing he ever actually drove was a car, having never sat a driving test for any vehicle ever.


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    #43
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    loyatemu wrote: »
    I suspect the license is the key document here - if you have it, and haven't committed an offence, they can't take it off you. The early test was very basic, and I doubt they have proper records of who passed which test and when because at the time the license was the record.

    Maybe taxi drivers should have to resit the test as part of their PSV license renewal? What's the requirement for bus drivers?

    Driving isn't a legal right. There's no article about "the inviolability of the motor-carriage" in the constitution.

    All it would take to change the rules is the government passing legislation.

    Personally I think taxis (or anyone that drives for a living) should be held to a higher standard.
    I would have an advanced test required, regular retesting* and CPDs** in things like customer care and first-aid.

    *of course, I think everyone should do regular retesting. I'd have it every 2 years. It's only an hour if your time to ensure that you and those around you aren't completely incompetent. Sounds extreme but isn't it crazy that the car needs regular checks but by far the most dangerous element doesn't?

    **really taxi drivers should be in favour of higher standards. It's a barrier to entering the job, so it means there'll be less competition for work.


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    #44
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,361 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    NiallBoo wrote: »
    Driving isn't a legal right. There's no article about "the inviolability of the motor-carriage" in the constitution.

    All it would take to change the rules is the government passing legislation.

    +1 People have gone all the way to the Supreme Court in a desperate attempt to overturn a conviction for drink driving and get their licence back so this topic has been trashed out on several occasions at the highest levels. The higher courts have ruled that a driving licence is a privilege, not a right and it can be taken from you by order of the courts i.e. disqualifying someone from holding a driving licence is not in breach of any imaginary right under the constitution.

    Note that when you are disqualified, it's not that you are disqualified from driving, you are disqualified from holding a driving licence. If you were in the Gardai or the Army, legally you could continue to drive official vehicles on public roads if you lost your (civilian) driving licence though in practice your superiors will ground you, same as applies in civvvie street.
    NiallBoo wrote: »
    *of course, I think everyone should do regular retesting. I'd have it every 2 years. It's only an hour if your time to ensure that you and those around you aren't completely incompetent. Sounds extreme but isn't it crazy that the car needs regular checks but by far the most dangerous element doesn't?

    Such a rule would immediately put thousands of old biddies in rural communities off the road, it would be fought tooth and nail by rural TDs from every political party so it would not have a hope of getting onto the statute books.

    I know of a woman in her 90s who's doctor refused to sign her off on her driving licence renewal. This doctor would have known the woman for over 40 years as a patient and he knew that she had literally reached the end of the road in terms of the ability to safely drive a car. Solution? She went to a new doctor who obliged and she continued driving.


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    #45
    Mr.Frame
    Registered Users Posts: 766 ✭✭✭Mr.Frame


    NiallBoo wrote: »
    Personally I think taxis (or anyone that drives for a living) should be held to a higher standard.
    I would have an advanced test required, regular retesting* and CPDs** in things like customer care and first-aid.

    *of course, I think everyone should do regular retesting. I'd have it every 2 years. It's only an hour if your time to ensure that you and those around you aren't completely incompetent. Sounds extreme but isn't it crazy that the car needs regular checks but by far the most dangerous element doesn't?

    **really taxi drivers should be in favour of higher standards. It's a barrier to entering the job, so it means there'll be less competition for work.

    Taxi drivers HAVE been calling for higher standards. For example a driver from outside of the EU can drive a taxi here but is not and cannot be Garda vetted.
    Drivers who come from countries where they drive on the opposite side of the road should in my opinion do a test before being granted a taxi licence. I also think this should apply to any EU national who wishes to drive in Ireland.

    As for the "customer care and first aid". They are taxi drivers NOT medics,leave the medical stuff to the medics


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    #46
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Mr.Frame wrote: »
    Taxi drivers HAVE been calling for higher standards. For example a driver from outside of the EU can drive a taxi here but is not and cannot be Garda vetted.
    Drivers who come from countries where they drive on the opposite side of the road should in my opinion do a test before being granted a taxi licence. I also think this should apply to any EU national who wishes to drive in Ireland.

    I think the post meant higher driving standards.

    While I agree that all drivers should have the same standards applied to them, I think the taxi lobby are quicker to walk the fine line to xenphobia than they are to insist all drivers have passed a driving test.


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    #47
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,943 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    jimmycrackcorm wrote:
    And yet his insurance will be cheaper because statistically he is safer than a young lad who did a driving test...


    Yes he has 50 years driving experience and doesn't speed.


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    #48
    Mr.Frame
    Registered Users Posts: 766 ✭✭✭Mr.Frame


    n97 mini wrote: »
    I think the post meant higher driving standards.

    While I agree that all drivers should have the same standards applied to them, I think the taxi lobby are quicker to walk the fine line to xenphobia than they are to insist all drivers have passed a driving test.


    Whats this "taxi lobby" you are talking about ?
    Also please do explain your "xenophobia" comment.


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    #49
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,218 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Mr.Frame wrote: »
    Drivers who come from countries where they drive on the opposite side of the road should in my opinion do a test before being granted a taxi licence. I also think this should apply to any EU national who wishes to drive in Ireland.

    That's quite simply ridiculous.
    Driving on the other side of the road is a trivial task for any competent driver.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #50
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    Mr.Frame wrote: »
    Taxi drivers HAVE been calling for higher standards. For example a driver from outside of the EU can drive a taxi here but is not and cannot be Garda vetted.
    i agree with you in principle, I just can't see how it would actually be doable.
    - as another poster pointed out, that's just one aspect amongst very many where improvement is due.
    Mr.Frame wrote: »
    Drivers who come from countries where they drive on the opposite side of the road should in my opinion do a test before being granted a taxi licence. I also think this should apply to any EU national who wishes to drive in Ireland.
    My suggestion for an advanced test for all taxi drivers would cover this.
    Mr.Frame wrote: »
    As for the "customer care and first aid". They are taxi drivers NOT medics,leave the medical stuff to the medics
    First-aid isn't anything like being a medic. It's not about curing anybody, just knowing what to do until an ambulance arrives.

    You've ignored customer care...which in my experience has been a complete lottery.
    Mr.Frame wrote: »
    Whats this "taxi lobby" you are talking about ?
    It's this nice place with couches and stuff where you wait for your taxi.


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    #51
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    coylemj wrote: »
    Such a rule would immediately put thousands of old biddies in rural communities off the road, it would be fought tooth and nail by rural TDs from every political party so it would not have a hope of getting onto the statute books.

    oh I don't think it's at all likely, just my opinion on how it should be.
    If higher standards were brought in, you'd expect them to be slowly phased in.

    Elderly people becoming trapped and isolated sure is a problem. I think ultimately it's a problem of planning. We build houses in the middle of nowhere and become completely car dependant.

    This problem is going to get much, much worse as all of the people who've built houses in the last 15 years grow old and can't drive. Add to that they'll have smaller families with fewer (if any) relatives nearby to drive them around.


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    #52
    GreenFolder2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭GreenFolder2


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    Many many drivers whom did the test in the 80's and 90's would never had done the Driver Theory test.

    They should make it a requirement for any person whom has a licence suspended or any form of Driving ban to have to resit the test to get it back

    Anyone who held a provisional before June 11 2001 didn't take one. That includes many drivers in their 30s who may have taken they're test at age 17 and 18.

    The theory test isn't around all that long. It was only universal by about 2003 here and it was introduced in 1996 (with similar lag in the UK).

    I think all drivers should have to take theory tests once a decade as the roads and signage tends to evolve.

    Since I took my test: speed limits moved to km, the motorway network is an actual thing and there have been minor changes like red arrows on traffic lights etc etc.

    Older drivers likely don't even know clearly what some signage means. I know someone who had no idea what a white arrow on a blue background means. That didn't exist when they learnt to drive.

    I didn't do my test that long ago relatively and motorway driving wasn't any part of it. Then we wonder why there's no lane discipline etc


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    #53
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Mr.Frame wrote: »
    Whats this "taxi lobby" you are talking about ?

    Taxi unions, drivers etc. But I think you knew that.
    Mr.Frame wrote: »
    Also please do explain your "xenophobia" comment.

    I don't recall the above demanding all drivers must have passed a driving test, ever, but I do recall lots of demands about dem foreigners.


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    #54
    Elemonator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Elemonator


    More common than you think, especially after 1964. My grand-aunt was able to obtain a licence without a test because of a backlog in the system for tests and licence issue. Luckily for other road users, people from the country are driving every young and she never went further than the city. She's in her 80's now so no more driving! :o


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    #55
    Mr.Frame
    Registered Users Posts: 766 ✭✭✭Mr.Frame


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Taxi unions, drivers etc. But I think you knew that.

    Well no I didn't , hence my question to you.
    So how have these "unions" and "drivers" lobbied the powers that be? I'm curious to know your inside information.


    n97 mini wrote: »
    I don't recall the above demanding all drivers must have passed a driving test, ever.

    Huh?
    n97 mini wrote: »
    but I do recall lots of demands about dem foreigners.

    Could you elaborate on these "demands about dem foreigners" ?


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