Don't you just hate it when someone who has never owned an EV comes on here...

n97 mini

...to tell us all we've made a terrible mistake. It's why I prefer to discuss EVs elsewhere.

isnottheword

n97 mini wrote: »

...to tell us all we've made a terrible mistake. It's why I prefer to discuss EVs elsewhere.

Can't say it bothers me. Perhaps we have made a mistake (right now or in the near future if unreasonable fees kick in, the network deteriorates or gets overloaded, should our current EVs depreciate at a higher rate than ICEs, etc.) or perhaps they have.

If there's any merit in what they have to say, then I don't mind reading it. It's not all roses owning an EV - but as things stand right now, 4 months in, I'm happy with my purchase with €640 saved on fuel so far.

Look on the bright side - if you come up against sceptics, these are the people that have at least delayed 'charging for charging' - by at least 1 year and perhaps longer (lets see) - so rather than getting annoyed with them, you should thank them for not buying an EV and for helping pay for your EV's fuel ;-)

Thanks to the lack of take up, I have use of a public charger near home that I've only ever seen one other EV use in all the time I've lived here.

Satriale

I wouldn't take much notice, if it was up to some people we'd still all be riding horse and traps.
With anything new, someone has to bite the bullet or we'd never get anywhere.

Water John

OP, just be smug that you are a trend setter.
I see it as a real start to a big change. That change will eventually include the majority.

Skommando

I'll be moving to it when/if it becomes cheaper overall than traditional car ownership and becomes mainstream.

In the meantime, I'm quite happy to sit back and watch the early adopters/guinea pigs take the financial hit and iron out the bugs and pitfalls.

Water John

No problem with that Skomm. Its the people who feel the urge and cannot resist it to knock EVs, anyway they can, usually because of a closed mind, that gripes people.

KCross

Skommando wrote: »

I'll be moving to it when/if it becomes cheaper overall than traditional car ownership and becomes mainstream.

That has already happened, you just need to buy 2nd hand.

Buying any new car you suffer massive depreciation. EV just suffers an extra 10% or so for now but buy 2nd hand and the savings are substantial over ICE.

Skommando

KCross wrote: »

That has already happened, you just need to buy 2nd hand.

err no, it hasn't, and the ev cause does itself no favours by pretending this. I currently drive an immaculate and extremely reliable turn key older jap petrol, and as a result pay zero depreciation and almost zero maintenance, apart from a basic annual service, and I can travel as far as I want, whenever I want, without planning dealyed stops, in an area with very few working charging points if any. And I don't have to mess about with untidy trip hazard charging leads and plugs morning noon and night. No ev can yet compete, either financially or practically. When/if an EV eventually can compete with that, I'll be happy to move. (also the car can't look anything like the Nissan queef. Why do they style EV's so poorly ?)

Water John

That's just bangernomics and applies to all cars and transport.

KCross

Skommando wrote: »

err no, it hasn't, and the ev cause does itself no favours by pretending this. I currently drive an immaculate and extremely reliable turn key older jap petrol, and as a result pay zero depreciation and almost zero maintenance, apart from a basic annual service, and I can travel as far as I want, whenever I want, in an area with very few working charging points if any. No ev can yet compete, either financially or practically. When/if an EV eventually can compete with that, I'll be happy to move.

As I said, buy 2nd hand and you will then have a zero maintenance, low depreciation, reliable car the same as your ICE with the added significant savings on fuel.

The main issue not covered is driving long distance. If that's something you do regularly then fair enough it's not for you. No one claims the EV range isn't an issue.

From personal experience and others on here will also agree with that the savings in EV are significant. For me it's about €2k/yr. that's not made up or imagined.

If you regularly need the long distance then you will be waiting a long time for one of those to be available at an affordable 2nd hand price like your current jap ICE.

Skommando

KCross wrote: »

As I said, buy 2nd hand and you will then have a zero maintenance, low depreciation, reliable car the same as your ICE with the added significant savings on fuel.

The main issue not covered is driving long distance. If that's something you do regularly then fair enough it's not for you. No one claims the EV range isn't an issue.

From personal experience and others on here will also agree with that the savings in EV are significant. For me it's about €2k/yr. that's not made up or imagined.

If you regularly need the long distance then you will be waiting a long time for one of those to be available at an affordable 2nd hand price like your current jap ICE.

I've done the sums, no second hand ev can compete. I spend about a 10 euro a week on petrol, and whenever I want to do a long journey, I don't have to plan it like a military operation, and I don't have to mess about with leads and chargers and stopovers, while driving an odd ball looking car. I've nothing against EV's, and whenever they become handier and cheaper than my current system, I'll be first to jump ship, but preaching that they are better option for everybody everywhere is just simply not true and does ev's no favours.

KCross

Skommando wrote: »

I've done the sums, no second hand ev can compete. I spend about a 10 euro a week on petrol, and whenever I want to do a long journey, I don't have to plan it like a military operation, and I don't have to mess about with leads and chargers, while driving an odd ball looking car. I've nothing against EV's but preaching that they are better option for everybody everywhere is just simply not true.

Your wording is a little strong, with respect.

I'm neither preaching nor saying it suits everyone. That should be clear in my last post.

If you don't like messing with leads then EV is even further away for you!

Water John

Not one EV owner on here, I think has claimed EV is better for everybody.
A good option for many, yes. A lot more people than have considered it to date, yes.
A good option, even with present limited range, for a major portion of car owners, probably.

Skommando

KCross wrote: »

Your wording is a little strong, with respect.

with respect, you were the one that tried to claim a used ev would be cheaper and better for me, which was complete bollocks.

That has already happened, you just need to buy 2nd hand.

Jayop

Theyre a great job for certain people who do a certain type of journey. If I was one of those people I'd probably try one, but living out west means it's not practical for me. The styling is an issue also but as more and more come online the styling will become more mainstream.

davidgdlt

KCross wrote: »

If that's something you do regularly then fair enough it's not for you. No one claims the EV range isn't an issue.

Skommando wrote: »

preaching that they are better option for everybody everywhere is just simply not true and does ev's no favours.

F in reading comprehension :rolleyes:

KCross

Skommando wrote: »

with respect, you were the one that tried to claim a used ev would be cheaper and better for me, which was complete bollocks.

I have no idea of your circumstances and was not preaching that it would specifically suit you. I was responding to your comment that you would switch when it was cheaper to own an EV and for many people that has already happened. I never said it would suit everyone and clearly said if you need long distance that it isn't for you.

peposhi

Skommando wrote: »

I've done the sums, no second hand ev can compete. I spend about a 10 euro a week on petrol, and whenever I want to do a long journey, I don't have to plan it like a military operation, and I don't have to mess about with leads and chargers and stopovers, while driving an odd ball looking car. I've nothing against EV's, and whenever they become handier and cheaper than my current system, I'll be first to jump ship, but preaching that they are better option for everybody everywhere is just simply not true and does ev's no favours.

No one is preaching.
We share our opinion and experience. Most of the EV drivers prefer their current car compared to their old ICE car, including all my family who was VERY suspicious when I first pushed to get an EV.
Hopefully you find down the years the best looking, most practical and cheap to run car you ever wanted regardless what gets the wheels in it moving.

Skommando

davidgdlt wrote: »

F in reading comprehension :rolleyes:

indeed, if you ignore his earlier post,

. . . didn't take long for the personal remarks patronising/preaching to start.

me_right_one

Stupid question alert - how do you pay for the electricity you use? Is it a bill, coins in the charger, some sort of swipe card?

Skommando

peposhi wrote: »

Hopefully you find down the years the best looking, most practical and cheap to run car you ever wanted regardless what gets the wheels in it moving.

That's exactly what I do, and an ev can't do it yet. When it does, I'll be happy to move.

DrPhilG

Skommando wrote: »

with respect, you were the one that tried to claim a used ev would be cheaper and better for me, which was complete bollocks.

Not sure if you're not reading the posts, or just being argumentative.

KCross wrote: »

The main issue not covered is driving long distance. If that's something you do regularly then fair enough it's not for you. No one claims the EV range isn't an issue.

Seems pretty clear to me.

I'm also in the situation where I'm not saving about €2100 a year compared to my previous car. Long runs can be a pain, but they are fairly rare. On the once a year occasion when I drive Donegal to Cork, I just hire a car with the savings for the rest of the year.

But that's me, it's not for everyone.

peposhi

Skommando wrote: »

That's exactly what I do, and an ev can't do it yet. When it does, I'll be happy to move.

Cheers!

Skommando

DrPhilG wrote: »

Not sure if you're not reading the posts, or just being argumentative.

Maybe just try reading someone's posts first and talking to them before telling them an ev is better /cheaper for them, rather than start complaining and making personal remarks when they point out it's not.

DrPhilG

God you're an awful sensitive soul aren't you...

Skommando

DrPhilG wrote: »

God you're an awful sensitive soul aren't you...

If you can't discuss EV's without resorting to personal remarks, because you've no factual argument, it says more about you than me.

DrPhilG

Lol

You are the one starting an argument here. You say I can't discuss the merits of EVs, thats exactly what I have done. I have also pointed out that for many (like you for instance), they don't suit.

The fact that you can't hear disagreement without getting all precious and complaining about personal insults says plenty about you than me.

Maybe you should go find a safe space where there are less hurtful words.

Skommando

DrPhilG wrote: »

Lol

You are the one starting an argument here. You say I can't discuss the merits of EVs, thats exactly what I have done. I have also pointed out that for many (like you for instance), they don't suit.

The fact that you can't hear disagreement without getting all precious and complaining about personal insults says plenty about YOU!

Maybe you should go find a safe space where there are no hurtful words.

I don't have to take personal remarks from anyone here, because an ev isn't economic or practical for me.

Would you consider yourself representative of EV drivers ?

irishgrover

This title and nature of the thread is confrontational, diversive and subjective to begin with.......people reading it will by default fall into an owner or non owner camp.....and have their backs up slightly......
I don't understand the purpose of the thread..... is it
A. To make oneself feel better by having go at people who have a different view on EVs, and think such an investment is premature
B. To make oneself feel better by getting other EV owners to respond with "chin up", "ignore the heaters" type comments
Seriously, what's the point?

DrPhilG

Skommando wrote: »

I don't have to take personal remarks from anyone here

Im starting to lose track of what you're on about here...

Skommando wrote: »

an ev isn't economic or practical for me.

We know. Same goes for many people.

Skommando wrote: »

Would you consider yourself representative of EV drivers ?

What does that even mean? Every driver's situation and needs are different. Most are city drivers, some do long journeys and manage the charging needs. I'm rural but my daily commute is about 25 miles.

Some save very little, some save a fortune, some probably save nothing but drive electric for environmental reasons.

DrPhilG

irishgrover wrote: »

This title and nature of the thread is confrontational, diversive and subjective to begin with.......people reading it will by default fall into an owner or non owner camp.....and have their backs up slightly.....

I agree on the title. I think the "....." part at the end is the issue. What I think is implied is that it's annoying when someone who hasn't driven an EV comes in here simply to slate them, which I think happened on one of the other threads recently and probably prompted this thread.

I personally welcome when someone who has never driven an EV comes in, because hopefully they can learn more about them.

Water John

There is a point in what you say. The opener is a sort of leading question.
I don't mind people expressing reluctance. If I was doing any long distance, even on occasions, I would be reluctant to change and have no qualms in expressing those views.
BTW I have retained the 2nd car in the family which not alone is an ICE but a diesel. I promise to change, but like any sinner, not just yet.

Charging at public points is free ATM. Plug in at home is simply on your house electricity, many have night rate. This works out at less than €3.

glomar

curiosity thought , has anybody factored in the cost of a battery replacement later down the line ? I cant see most of these vehicles making the 10 - 12 year age due to the financial cost of battery replacements . I think the tesla might be unique in its cost replacements but my understanding is that a leaf battery is in the region of 5 - 6k am I correct in saying this ?

isnottheword

KCross has called it correctly. For some, driving the right EV at the right price point means you're on to a winner. The guy mentioned zero depreciation - there's no such thing! Cars (EV or ICE) have to be one of the most rapidly depreciating asset classes that exist! As regards him saying that he's paying €10/week on petrol, he's hardly using the car - why not get a bike! I'm saving €160/month thanks to guys like you Skommando - so thank you for rubbishing EV's (You're not just claiming that EV's don't work for your circumstances but you're generalising).

You say that when all the bugs, etc are worked out of EV's, then you'll make the switch. That's fine - but understand that every government will tax the hell out of electricity to make up for what will be a massive shortfall in fuel and road taxes at that point. You won't have to put up with some of the inconveniences we do currently - but don't expect to make financial savings - as that won't be happening....and if we all end up with micro-gen (eg. solar panels, etc.) to power cars, they will simply increase other taxes instead to account for the shortfall.

Water John

At present that would be a bout the price. A couple of other factors to consider.
Price will drop, technology will improve, probably very significantly, the old batteries have a residual value for electric storage.

I think battery technology will be a big game changer. Was researching latest battery tech for another purpose. The range of research is remarkable. Surely a few will make it through to full production.

Field east

KCross wrote: »

That has already happened, you just need to buy 2nd hand.

Buying any new car you suffer massive depreciation. EV just suffers an extra 10% or so for now but buy 2nd hand and the savings are substantial over ICE.

These posts are all about " should I or should I not buy an EV? " apart from the various levels of "praise" being exchanged between some posters. Ah yes, I've just realised that it is the season of good will.

Two points that may be worth injecting into the discussion:-
(1) A new EV starts off with the battery being able to deliver at 100% of its rated capacity. So it would be important to know what capacity is left in the battery as a new battery can cost up to €3500 when a replacement is needed

(2) A related matter is that a battery at 100 % cap will allow , for example, 100 Km to be covered. But when the capacity is only at 50% on your fully charged battery you can now only cover 😂50Km.

Am not claiming to be an expert on the above so any comments are welcome

TanFlash

EVs are the job, no noisey engine, great torque.

However, here's a sweeping statement: majority of owners are tight as a ducks arse.

me_right_one

Water John wrote: »

Charging at public points is free ATM. Plug in at home is simply on your house electricity, many have night rate. This works out at less than €3.

:eek::eek::eek:

How is this being paid for? And how will it go whenever they decide to make it not free anymore??

I was thinking of getting an EV. At the moment I drive a diesel, e100 gets me 450-500 miles. How far does a e3 charge get you, and is that a full charge?

isnottheword

glomar wrote: »

curiosity thought , has anybody factored in the cost of a battery replacement later down the line ? I cant see most of these vehicles making the 10 - 12 year age due to the financial cost of battery replacements . I think the tesla might be unique in its cost replacements but my understanding is that a leaf battery is in the region of 5 - 6k am I correct in saying this ?

You're quite right - this has to be factored in. In the case of the Leaf, they're talking in terms of a design life of 10 years. I'm open to correction but I think current battery replacement cost is €4-5K. There's a independent third party service provider in Worcester who will recondition batteries (to 90% minimum) for £1500. That's still expensive - but over time, the hope would be that these figures will continue to drop. That has been the gamble I've taken - I won't know until a couple of years when I hit that point (as I do higher than average mileage). That said - worse case scenario - I'm banking current savings at a rate of €160/month whilst charging remains free. If fees for charging is held back for a few more months, I'd have the price of a battery refurb. Bear in mind also that there's damn all maintenance involved with these cars. I was spending savage cash per annum in engine related servicing.

isnottheword

Field east wrote: »

Two points that may be worth injecting into the discussion:-
(1) A new EV starts off with the battery being able to deliver at 100% of its rated capacity. So it would be important to know what capacity is left in the battery as a new battery can cost up to €3500 when a replacement is needed

(2) A related matter is that a battery at 100 % cap will allow , for example, 100 Km to be covered. But when the capacity is only at 50% on your fully charged battery you can now only cover 😂50Km.

See my previous post in response to another poster ref. battery degradation. Of course, that has to be factored in to the buying decision. EV's are not for everyone right now. However, you can determine whether one is or not suitable for your usage - whilst factoring in battery degradation.

TanFlash wrote:

However, here's a sweeping statement: majority of owners are tight as a ducks arse.

From your point of view, you see this as a group of owners as 'tight as a ducks arse'. To me, I see this as a group of owners who are savvy with their cash. You wont embarrass me with that - only yourself if that's your mindset.
That said, not all EV owners have based their purchase purely on financial grounds - some are simply early adopters and fans of new tech (I've bought a 3 year old Leaf so can't really claim to be a true early adopter) or for environmental reasons.

monkeysnapper

I've been one of the nerds that's been following the leaf coming to the market since 2010 and fell in love instantly but at present still driving my Citroen c4 , it has about 2 years left in it .

I was talking to guys in work about electric cars being future and they all looked at me like I had six heads on me .

I changed jobs 2 years ago and now live 1 mile from my work place, hell I cycle there in summer .

I admit I kind of stopped looking at cars for last 2 years and only this weekend had a look on done deal ......wow the price of a second hand leaf has really come down !!!!

KCross

TanFlash wrote: »

EVs are the job, no noisey engine, great torque.

However, here's a sweeping statement: majority of owners are tight as a ducks arse.

Sweeping for sure!
How many do you know?

Skommando

isnottheword wrote: »

The guy mentioned zero depreciation - there's no such thing! Cars (EV or ICE) have to be one of the most rapidly depreciating asset classes that exist!

I bought 3 years ago for 900e they sell today on done deal for about 1000e
Immaculate low mileage reliable popular easy to sell jap car.

isnottheword wrote: »

As regards him saying that he's paying €10/week on petrol, he's hardly using the car - why not get a bike!

I use it daily for work, 15 mile round trip, in all weather conditions and for passengers and equipment. I'd like to see any bike do that.

isnottheword wrote: »

I'm saving €160/month thanks to guys like you Skommando

Like me how ? Unlike you, I don't care what others drive.

isnottheword wrote: »

- so thank you for rubbishing EV's (You're not just claiming that EV's don't work for your circumstances but you're generalising).

Where have I said that, quite the opposite. EVs don't work for my specific circumstances, despite being told here that they would without even knowing my circumstances. Now who's generalising ?

isnottheword wrote: »

You say that when all the bugs, etc are worked out of EV's, then you'll make the switch. That's fine - but understand that every government will tax the hell out of electricity to make up for what will be a massive shortfall in fuel and road taxes at that point. You won't have to put up with some of the inconveniences we do currently - but don't expect to make financial savings - as that won't be happening....and if we all end up with micro-gen (eg. solar panels, etc.) to power cars, they will simply increase other taxes instead to account for the shortfall.

So in other words they are not the be all and end all for the future some people would have you believe ?
Grand, I'll be just as happy not to use EV's so.

Water John

Was wondering why I felt constipated.

isnottheword

Skommando wrote: »

I bought 3 years ago for 900e they sell today on done deal for about 1000e
Immaculate low mileage reliable jap car.

Well, aren't you quite the dellboy :P Everyone accepts that generally, cars (EV or ICE) are a rapidly depreciating asset class. So someone underpriced whatever it was they sold to you maybe because (given the pricepoint you're talking about), they just wanted rid of it.

Skommando wrote: »

I use it daily for work, 15 mile round trip, in all weather conditions and for passengers and equipment. I'd like to see any bike do that.

I have work colleagues that do that distance on a bike - commuting to work - albeit that I accept it wouldn't be for me either. I do 80 mile roundtrip in my Leaf.

Skommando wrote: »

Like me how ? Unlike you, I don't care what others drive.

I guess the point was lost on you. EV take-up has been slow. The slower take-up remains, the longer free (or cheap) charging, no vrt and other incentives will stay in place. I'm not saying you are actively bringing this about - but you are passively - so thank you :-)

Skommando wrote: »

Where have I said that, quite the opposite. EVs don't work for my specific circumstances, despite being told here that they would without even knowing my circumstances. Now who's generalising ?

You are - see you're very first post in this thread.

Skommando wrote: »

So in other words they are not the be all and end all some people would have you believe ?
Grand, I'll be just as happy not to use EV's so.

Yes, 'some' are evangelic about EV's - but most people that post here are pragmatic. Otherwise, thanks once again for deciding against EV use - it means I'm likely to save €160/month on fuel a bit longer (before servicing savings of course).

Skommando

isnottheword wrote: »

Well, aren't you quite the dellboy :P Everyone accepts that generally, cars (EV or ICE) are a rapidly depreciating asset class. So someone underpriced whatever it was they sold to you maybe because (given the pricepoint you're talking about), they just wanted rid of it.

Nope, that was the market price then and now. Good reliable low mileage cheap popular jap car, and very easy to sell on when I want to.

isnottheword wrote: »

I have work colleagues that do that distance on a bike - commuting to work

How do they do it with equipment and passengers ? I know people that cycle hundreds of miles on bicycles, still can see how that's a relevant argument for buying EV's ?

isnottheword wrote: »

I guess the point was lost on you.

There wasn't one.

isnottheword wrote: »

EV take-up has been slow. The slower take-up remains, the longer free (or cheap) charging, no vrt and other incentives will stay in place. I'm not saying you are actively bringing this about - but you are passively - so thank you :-)

why would I pay more to buy and run an ev ?

isnottheword wrote: »

Yes, 'some' are evangelic about EV's - but most people that post here are pragmatic. Otherwise, thanks once again for deciding against EV use - it means I'm likely to save €160/month on fuel a bit longer (before servicing savings of course).

Again you'll have to explain why I would pay more to buy and run an ev ?

isnottheword

I wont waste any more of my time. According to Skommando, ICE's APPRECIATE in value. When you have someone who comes to that conclusion, there is no more point in debating anything else that he's brought up.

Thanks again. :-)

Skommando

isnottheword wrote: »

I wont waste any more of my time. According to Skommando, ICE's APPRECIATE in value. When you have someone who comes to that conclusion, there is no more point in debating anything else that he's brought up.

I suppose if all else fails you can fail to answer the questions and pretend what I posted.

isnottheword

Skommando wrote: »

I suppose if all else fails you can fail to answer he questions and pretend what I posted.

I'm not pretending anything fella. You stated that your ICE accumulated value over 3 years. Is your last name Buffett, first name Warren?


Skate on by in your ICE.

Skommando

isnottheword wrote: »

I'm not pretending anything fella. You stated that your ICE accumulated value over 3 years. Is your last name Buffett, first name Warren?


Skate on by in your ICE.

Nope roughly the same as I paid for it, people advertise and sell cars at slightly different prices all the time.

Care to answer any questions you were asked instead of making up what I posted ?

isnottheword

Skommando wrote: »

Nope roughly the same as I paid for it, people advertise and sell cars at slightly different prices all the time.

Care to answer any questions you were asked instead of making up what I posted ?

Ah, so we have gone from an appreciating asset to one that remains at parity. Changing your story - and it's still bullshít. The example that you provide is a one-off. All cars depreciate rapidly. If they didn't, we would all invest in cars rather than place it in stocks, stock options, savings accounts, etc.