Farmers Profits Should Be Tax Free

NovemberJersey

My way of lookin at it is that due to bad prices and all the hard work we've to go through our profits should be made tax free. Farming is the backbone of the country, every business here in the west is totally dependent on farming and with the way things are going there won't be many farmers left after a couple more years and the domino effect will be huge. I think it's particularly disgrace that the government take half of my EU grant the single farm payment off me every year in taxes, that money is meant to be for me.

How do ye think we could implement this and which government party would most likely do it? I was think FG since they've always been good to us

veetwin

My way of lookin at it is that due to bad prices and all the hard work we've to go through our profits should be made tax free.

So by extension everyone who works hard shouldn't have to pay tax? Taxes are paid on profits no?

Farming is the backbone of the country

Maybe 40 years ago. It's a big enough player but in no way the back bone.

every business here in the west is totally dependent on farming

Again maybe 40 years ago. Not now

I think it's particularly disgrace that the government take half of my EU grant the single farm payment off me every year in taxes, that money is meant to be for me.

Again taxes are paid on profits no?


Why is a handout from the EU to you not subject to tax?

Even for a farmer you seem to have a remarkable sense of self entitlement and seem to think that the world revolves around you and your farm.

Graham

NovemberJersey wrote: »

My way of lookin at it is that due to bad prices and all the hard work we've to go through our profits should be made tax free.

The fact that you can make profits when prices are bad kind of nullifies your argument.

Roadhawk

Lets call a spade a spade here...

If you are in business (any business) and cant get the price you need to make profit you must either innovate or change industry. Any industry that is heavily granted is a burden. Ultimately profit is being subsidized by another financial institution which does not make sense.

Although agriculture in Ireland has high exports I dont think there is a dependency on it. The top contributes seem to be pharmaceuticals, machines and medical instruments. Check out the OEC link:

http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/irl/

mahoganygas

NovemberJersey wrote:

that money is meant to be for me.

This sums up Ireland today.

NovemberJersey

Count Kerry needs farming in the same way that a car needs petrol, nothing happens otherwise. The rest of the country is the same besides where people won't milk cows, beef and tillage farming are both loss makers and are popular in Leinster. Look at Kerry group, hired 800 new employees here in Ireland last year. It's only there in the first place because of farmers

Even the hardware stores would be closed down over night if it wasn't for farming, welders would be gone, builders main work is farm buildings work so they'd all be gone to oz, the list is endless

jimmii

Is farming not already fairly heavily subsidised now you think you get more handouts? Everyone thinks they should pay less tax not sure why you think farmers should get even more special treatment. If farming isn't profitable enough do what other people have to do with businesses that aren't viable and try something else.

L.Jenkins

Tax free? No. Additional or extended reliefs in certain areas? Maybe.

NovemberJersey

jimmii wrote: »

Is farming not already fairly heavily subsidised now you think you get more handouts? Everyone thinks they should pay less tax not sure why you think farmers should get even more special treatment. If farming isn't profitable enough do what other people have to do with businesses that aren't viable and try something else.

My farm is profitable enough but I employ so many people I shouldn't have to pay any taxes

Graham

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Even the hardware stores would be closed down over night if it wasn't for farming, welders would be gone, builders main work is farm buildings work so they'd all be gone to oz, the list is endless

Nobody suggested the banning of farming overnight. They're countering your argument that a profitable business needs additional tax breaks to be more profitable.

NovemberJersey

Graham wrote: »

Nobody suggested the banning of farming overnight. They're countering your argument that a profitable business needs additional tax breaks to be more profitable.

Small farmers aren't viable though so only big farmers are going to be left after a few more years and us big farmers are getting crucified with tax, I'm going to be milking my cows at 6am Christmas morning and paying 55% tax on the money I make, it's not worth it

Graham

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Small farmers aren't viable though

In which case, not taxing profits is going to be the least of your worries.

L.Jenkins

NovemberJersey wrote: »

My farm is profitable enough but I employ so many people I shouldn't have to pay any taxes

And may we ask, why not? Just because the Government seems to take so much from EU and other Single Payment Annual Grants, that shouldn't/doesn't qualify you for tax exemption.

NovemberJersey

Graham wrote: »

In which case, not taxing profits is going to be the least of your worries.

I've a big farm so that's not my problem

Graham

NovemberJersey wrote: »

I've a big farm so that's not my problem

Ahhh so it's not your big profitable farm you think should be tax free, it's the smaller ones.

L.Jenkins

Graham wrote: »

In which case, not taxing profits is going to be the least of your worries.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's plenty of small farm owners entitled to Income Averaging provided they work a minimum of 20 hours a week on the farm, along side a part or full time, with a few other conditions. So if they can manage their farms and costs well, it shouldn't drag them down below the bread line and into destitution or poverty.

mrawkward

OP you do the farming community little service but rather selfishly seek to have yourself and them included in the growing list that make up the "entitled" sectors, just let someone else pay!!

L.Jenkins

NovemberJersey wrote: »

I've a big farm so that's not my problem

I do sympathise November, that farmers do get hammered with respect to milk, tillage and beef/other livestock based produce prices. That's no entitlement there for tax exemption.

NovemberJersey

L.Jenkins wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's plenty of small farm owners entitled to Income Averaging provided they work a minimum of 20 hours a week on the farm, along side a part or full time, with a few other conditions. So if they can manage their farms and costs well, it shouldn't drag them down below the bread line and into destitution or poverty.

Farm assistance is what they call that I think, if a fella is clean useless and can't run his farm properly and lies in bed all day long the government pays him €400 a week, its a disgrace as it stops us big farmers from getting our hands on their land and we'd actually be able to farm it

davo2001

NovemberJersey wrote: »

My farm is profitable enough but I employ so many people I shouldn't have to pay any taxes

This made me literally laugh out loud. Thanks!

nhunter100

NovemberJersey wrote:

Farming is the backbone of the country,

You need to substitute 'is' for 'was'.

nhunter100

NovemberJersey wrote:

Even the hardware stores would be closed down over night if it wasn't for farming, welders would be gone, builders main work is farm buildings work so they'd all be gone to oz, the list is endless

Now I know you're trolling.

L.Jenkins

Graham wrote: »

In which case, not taxing profits is going to be the least of your worries.

It might help farmers with small farms (below a certain acreage and livestock/milk production level), if they received a reduced tax rate for a set period of time to mitigate against lower prices at certain times of the year. For example, you might have lower yields of tillage during the winter, because farmers didn't get to turn it in time to dry it or remove it from the land.

Roadhawk

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Farm assistance is what they call that I think, if a fella is clean useless and can't run his farm properly and lies in bed all day long the government pays him €400 a week, its a disgrace as it stops us big farmers from getting our hands on their land and we'd actually be able to farm it

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/farming_and_fishing/farm_assist.html

NovemberJersey

nhunter100 wrote: »

Now I know you're trolling.

Ya that's it when you don't agree with what someone else says that makes them a ****ing troll, sit yourself down and think about it for 2 minutes how dependent the west is on farming or maybe someone with a lot of patience could explain it to u

Kat1170

NovemberJersey wrote: »

My farm is profitable enough but I employ so many people I shouldn't have to pay any taxes

NovemberJersey wrote: »

I've a big farm so that's not my problem

Donald, is that you ????????

Graham

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Ya that's it when you don't agree with what someone else says that makes them a ****ing troll, sit yourself down and think about it for 2 minutes how dependent the west is on farming or maybe someone with a lot of patience could explain it to u

I thought you were profitable?

jimmii

NovemberJersey wrote: »

My farm is profitable enough but I employ so many people I shouldn't have to pay any taxes

So only small companies that don't employ people should have to pay taxes? Are you sure you're a farmer and don't work for Apple or Amazon?

L.Jenkins

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Farm assistance is what they call that I think, if a fella is clean useless and can't run his farm properly and lies in bed all day long the government pays him €400 a week, its a disgrace as it stops us big farmers from getting our hands on their land and we'd actually be able to farm it

Roadhawk wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/farming_and_fishing/farm_assist.html

So the Farm Assist isn't €400 a weeks. It pays up to €188, similar to Jobseekers for Farmers who meet criteria, but don't make enough to live. So I'm sure November, you could target these Farmers and pay them what they might make on the Farm per week + €188 + an additional financial incentive per week for their land. Then you could farm all the land you want and everyone might be happy.

I remember looking at the numbers are while ago and every euro spent by the former department of enterprise trade and employment generated a multiple of jobs compared to what was spent by the department of agriculture.

Be careful what you wish for OP, you could get a tax break but would you say trade your SFP for it.

mrawkward

Interesting to note that all the OP's posts are on the subject of farming tax, co-op share taxation.......

Roadhawk

L.Jenkins wrote: »

It might help farmers with small farms (below a certain acreage and livestock/milk production level), if they received a reduced tax rate for a set period of time to mitigate against lower prices at certain times of the year. For example, you might have lower yields of tillage during the winter, because farmers didn't get to turn it in time to dry it or remove it from the land.

If you are to reduce taxes for farmers because a product is seasonal then surely we must also reduce taxes for the same in other industries. Thats like saying that new car dealerships should have reduced tax rates in December because most people are waiting for January to make a purchase...nonsense.

NovemberJersey

Graham wrote: »

I thought you were profitable?

Sorry I'm mixed up now, I never said I wasn't?

Graham

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Sorry I'm mixed up now

It does appear that way

NovemberJersey wrote: »

I never said I wasn't?

Which brings us full circle back to my original response:

The fact that you can make profits when prices are bad kind of nullifies your argument.

Everything else is just moaning to be honest.

pilly

This guy is definitely a troll lads, spouting this rubbish about farming being tax free and the backbone of the country on all sorts of threads but shows very little knowledge of the business at all.

Roadhawk

pilly wrote: »

...spouting this rubbish about farming being tax free and the backbone of the country...but shows very little knowledge of the business at all.

Sounds like most farmers I have come across.

nhunter100

NovemberJersey wrote:

Ya that's it when you don't agree with what someone else says that makes them a ****ing troll, sit yourself down and think about it for 2 minutes how dependent the west is on farming or maybe someone with a lot of patience could explain it to u

Tourism is more important to the West, as for trolling do you think people only read one thread on boards? I've seen other bs by you along a similar vain. Considering some of the responses on your other thread you recieved calling you out as a troll is quite polite tbh.

NovemberJersey

I've commented on 4 threads including this one, one was about Kerry group shares, the other I explored the possibility of setting my farm up as a company and the last one was a more general thread about taxation where I was frequently abused when I mentioned I get the SFP grant. Maybe I've worded this wrong but I think there should be tax breaks for farmers to encourage more output and reward hard work and if getting rid of all the grants to all sorts of farmers is the cost of such tax breaks then so be it. My farm does make a lot of profit but I reinvest most of it = the local community benefitting because they're obviously the ones I'm hiring and buying stuff off of… "the farm assist" money is a disgrace imo

nhunter100

NovemberJersey wrote:

I've commented on 4 threads including this one, one was about Kerry group shares, the other I explored the possibility of setting my farm up as a company and the last one was a more general thread about taxation where I was frequently abused when I mentioned I get the SFP grant. Maybe I've worded this wrong but I think there should be tax breaks for farmers to encourage more output and reward hard work and if getting rid of all the grants to all sorts of farmers is the cost of such tax breaks then so be it. My farm does make a lot of profit but I reinvest most of it = the local community benefitting because they're obviously the ones I'm hiring and buying stuff off of… "the farm assist" money is a disgrace imo

You recieved abuse due to your condescending and trolling ( but i think you knew that already)comments not because of the SFP. Do you think you are the only person on this site with a farming background ( that is taking you at your word that you are a farmer). Anyhoo I've fed you enough, :-)

pilly

NovemberJersey wrote: »

I've commented on 4 threads including this one, one was about Kerry group shares, the other I explored the possibility of setting my farm up as a company and the last one was a more general thread about taxation where I was frequently abused when I mentioned I get the SFP grant. Maybe I've worded this wrong but I think there should be tax breaks for farmers to encourage more output and reward hard work and if getting rid of all the grants to all sorts of farmers is the cost of such tax breaks then so be it. My farm does make a lot of profit but I reinvest most of it = the local community benefitting because they're obviously the ones I'm hiring and buying stuff off of… "the farm assist" money is a disgrace imo

If you are indeed a farmer then you're doing the farming trade no favours by continuing to spout this ****e. Seriously, reward hard work by reducing taxation? Do you really think farmers work harder than anyone else in the country? There's lads working 80-90 hours per week on minimum wage to keep their heads above water and they pay their fair share of taxes. Everyone has to pay. Tough luck.

And do away with all the grants and reduce taxes? If that actually worked in farmers favour they'd have been campaigning for it for years.

Either you're a troll or you don't know how to add.

Roadhawk

NovemberJersey wrote: »

I've commented on 4 threads including this one, one was about Kerry group shares, the other I explored the possibility of setting my farm up as a company and the last one was a more general thread about taxation where I was frequently abused when I mentioned I get the SFP grant. Maybe I've worded this wrong but I think there should be tax breaks for farmers to encourage more output and reward hard work and if getting rid of all the grants to all sorts of farmers is the cost of such tax breaks then so be it. My farm does make a lot of profit but I reinvest most of it = the local community benefitting because they're obviously the ones I'm hiring and buying stuff off of… "the farm assist" money is a disgrace imo

Im sure you have heard the expression "stop digging" or "put the shovel down"...

NovemberJersey

pilly wrote: »

If you are indeed a farmer then you're doing the farming trade no favours by continuing to spout this ****e. Seriously, reward hard work by reducing taxation? Do you really think farmers work harder than anyone else in the country? There's lads working 80-90 hours per week on minimum wage to keep their heads above water and they pay their fair share of taxes. Everyone has to pay. Tough luck.

And do away with all the grants and reduce taxes? If that actually worked in farmers favour they'd have been campaigning for it for years.

Either you're a troll or you don't know how to add.

Hold your horses and calm down. For starters the people in minimum wage jobs can walk out of their job in the evening and not be awake at night worrying about it like how a farmer does, someone in teagsc said to me a while back that a lot of farmers would be a lot better off if they got jobs in the likes of dunnes stores. Beef & tillage farming are total lossmakers, it's not that you don't make enough money to live off it you don't even make enough money to break even. And finally the farm grants benefit small farmers in general rather than the bigger ones and I think it's a waste of money subsidising them. The land is the natural resource of our country and its being swindled by a lot of farmers who don't have to farm it properly because of the free money they get

NovemberJersey

OSI wrote: »

So why don't they? Why don't they sell it to the farming commercial geniuses such as yourself and take up a cushy minimum wage retail job they can "walk out of any time they want"?

Because of the stigma that's goes with selling land, you don't have to be from a farming background to know all about that. And I never said they can walk out any time they want, I just pointed out that they wouldn't be up at night stressing over their job like a farmer would. A moderator shouldn't take up such a tone, your not being fair quoting things I haven't even said.

NovemberJersey

Graham wrote: »

:rolleyes:

It's as if the posts are getting more absurd to try and provoke responses.

Literally none of what I said is absurd?

Graham

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Literally none of what I said is absurd?

If you're as you say. A successful, profitable farmer what on earth are you whining about?

Just get on with it. If you're unhappy with your lot, do something about it.

NovemberJersey

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I remember looking at the numbers are while ago and every euro spent by the former department of enterprise trade and employment generated a multiple of jobs compared to what was spent by the department of agriculture.

Be careful what you wish for OP, you could get a tax break but would you say trade your SFP for it.

Tbh I would trade the SFP for it because I think looking at the bigger the SFP isn't that beneficial to farming. The SFP is based on how much a given farm was producing back in the early 2000's which is mad if you think about it, a farmer need only keep a few donkeys on his farm to keep a certain stocking rate to now still receive the SFP even though he might be contributing basically nothing to farming on a yearly basis

Mooooo

Definitely trolling here trying to drum up and anti farming response. We are treated as sole traders same as many other businesses unless those that have opted for the company route. If you are making profit this year you have no problems. Income averaging is available for those that want to balance out the good and bad years. We are now even more exposed to global markets so peaks and troughs will be the order of the day with many believing the peaks of the past are unlikely to be seen.

NovemberJersey

Graham wrote: »

If you're as you say. A successful, profitable farmer what on earth are you whining about?

Just get on with it. If you're unhappy with your lot, do something about it.

We're having a debate my friend, nobody is whining, you don't have to read the posts on this thread if they're this upsetting to you even though of course your free to do so. I forget who it was but one person on this thread said tourism is more important to the west than farming, imagine what would happen if we closed down every hotel in the west and now imagine if we closed down every farm

NovemberJersey

Mooooo wrote: »

Definitely trolling here trying to drum up and anti farming response. We are treated as sole traders same as many other businesses unless those that have opted for the company route. If you are making profit this year you have no problems. Income averaging is available for those that want to balance out the good and bad years. We are now even more exposed to global markets so peaks and troughs will be the order of the day with many believing the peaks of the past are unlikely to be seen.

That's your opinion but I think it's hysteria to insist dairying won't see the profits of 2014 again… when times are bad people get out of farming, when times are good people rush in and then we have too much produce for a while so things go bad for a while and people get out of it (that certain type of farming is what I mean when i say it) and on the cycle goes. As times goes on though I think there's going to be so few farmers left that those of us who are going to stay at it for the long haul will do well, look at the milk prices paid across the EU, we get one of the worst but I'd presume that's to do with there being so many dairy farmers in this country

And I forgot to mention, income averaging is a total disaster especially in a bad year like this one?? And it's difficult to take money out of a company afterwards unless your of a certain age which there's tax breaks for

chickendinner

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Hold your horses and calm down. For starters the people in minimum wage jobs can walk out of their job in the evening and not be awake at night worrying about it like how a farmer does, someone in teagsc said to me a while back that a lot of farmers would be a lot better off if they got jobs in the likes of dunnes stores.

Every business owner in the country has the same worries, also
if you think someone who is trying to pay a mortgage and raise a family can just quit their min wage job without a care in the world, I would have to question your mental capabilities.

NovemberJersey wrote: »

And finally the farm grants benefit small farmers in general rather than the bigger ones and I think it's a waste of money subsidising them. The land is the natural resource of our country and its being swindled by a lot of farmers who don't have to farm it properly because of the free money they get

Where are you getting this info about grants only benefiting smaller farms,
see below


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/living-off-the-fat-of-the-land-irelands-richest-farmers-35063062.html

NovemberJersey

chickendinner wrote: »

Every business owner in the country has the same worries, also
if you think someone who is trying to pay a mortgage and raise a family can just quit their min wage job without a care in the world, I would have to question your mental capabilities.




Where are you getting this info about grants only benefiting smaller farms,
see below


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/living-off-the-fat-of-the-land-irelands-richest-farmers-35063062.html

It's very offensive even for boards to talk about people's mental capabilities. Do you think that farmers who have these farms that can't make a profit don't have mortgages or children to educate? That stuff is a given. The small farmers get a disproportionately large amount of the grants, I know what I'm talking about. I get €47k of a grant and I'd be perfectly willing to get rid of them for tax breaks. your link won't open for me

I saw your link just there, the top 20 farmers out of thousands of us is a fair representation now is it?? To have that size of a grant they'd of have to of had gigantic farms and been extremely wealthy anyway