Rent increase for next year served this morning?

mrsWhippy

Hi there,

Our very shrewed landlord served us our lease and rent increase from sept '17 (by nearly 500 euro) this morning, in order to avoid the cap that is coming into effect soon.

Can he do this? I'm raging!

Thanks

CIARAN_BOYLE

mrsWhippy wrote: »

Hi there,

Our very shrewed landlord served us our lease and rent increase from sept '17 (by nearly 500 euro) this morning, in order to avoid the cap that is coming into effect soon.

Can he do this? I'm raging!

Thanks

well the residential tenancy bill 2016 has not yet been passed so no one is aware of its detailed provisions so feel free to wait and find out.

laserlad2010

afaik he may only serve you notice of a rent review on the day when the 2 year period is up (either from the last rent increase or the commencement of the lease). On that day he may give you 90 days notice. Anything earlier is invalid and should be ignored.

Thats what I've gleaned from lurking on this forum! I am open to correction.

DubCount

mrsWhippy wrote: »

Hi there,

Our very shrewed landlord served us our lease and rent increase from sept '17 (by nearly 500 euro) this morning, in order to avoid the cap that is coming into effect soon.

Can he do this? I'm raging!

Thanks

Contact the RTB for an opinion.

However, if the increase is ruled as invalid, you can expect the victory to be short lived. 500 gap between market rent and you current rent is a large financial incentive for the landlord to attempt to circumvent the new rules, even at a cost. What is stopping the LL taking back the property for a family member to stay in for a couple of months, renovating the property, and re-letting it at market rate? What is to stop the LL selling your property and buying another property in the same estate that he/she can charge 500 p.m. extra rent for? What is to stop the LL selling the property and investing in some other investment class ?

If you are lucky enough to stay in your current property at lower than market rent, be prepared for the LL to do nothing to improve the property or address any issues you have, because they will be only delighted to see you leave. Also, spare a thought for anyone who is looking to rent a property at the moment. I expect this move to increase short term rent inflation as new rental offers will attempt to get a higher and higher "base" rent on which to add subsequent 4% increases.

mrsWhippy

Am I right in saying though that we are protected at the moment and don't need to agree to or sign anything in advance of the 2 year gap since the last increase?

Ms Doubtfire1

mrsWhippy wrote: »

Am I right in saying though that we are protected at the moment and don't need to agree to or sign anything in advance of the 2 year gap since the last increase?

Thats correct. he can not raise your rent before the 2 year period is up - not a day before - not can he announce it.Further more he has to provide you with 3 examples not older than 3 month(I think it's 3 month) of comparable house in the area at the new price

Ms Doubtfire1

If you are lucky enough to stay in your current property at lower than market rent, be prepared for the LL to do nothing to improve the property or address any issues you have, because they will be only delighted to see you leave.  Also, spare a thought for anyone who is looking to rent a property at the moment.  I expect this move to increase short term rent inflation as new rental offers will attempt to get a higher and higher "base" rent on which to add subsequent 4% increases.

IN regards to this - you can actually MAKE the LL follow the law - if you have issues and he doesn't adress them you can pay for it yourself, and claim back through the tenancy board. Furthermore, would the issues be serious you can involve the council who will order the improvements and can issue fines if those orders are not followed.

Lux23

He's not such a shrewd landlord so. It galls me when so called "business people" can't be bothered to familiarise themselves with their legal obligations.

otwb1

When was your last increase? they can serve a minimum of 90 days notice of the rent change once two years are up.

mrsWhippy

otwb1 wrote: »

When was your last increase? they can serve a minimum of 90 days notice of the rent change once two years are up.

Sept '15

blue4ever

mrsWhippy wrote: »

Sept '15

Well, under current legislation he cant touch your rent until Sep 17 anyway, regardless of the proposed legislation.

So, as it stands only current legislation prevails, the rest is 'bark and bluster'.
You can politely write back and say that under the Residential Tenancies (Amendment) Act 2015 (amendment section 20) that the rent is only reviewed after 24 months and not 12 as in the original act, therefore he cant touch the rent until Sep '17.
If you want to take issue - do it immediately under the current set of rules and ignore whats potentially coming down the line. Current legislation has you safeguarded (to a point).

Call me Al

blue4ever wrote: »

Well, under current legislation he cant touch your rent until Sep 17 anyway, regardless of the proposed legislation.

So, as it stands only current legislation prevails, the rest is 'bark and bluster'.
You can politely write back and say that under the Residential Tenancies (Amendment) Act 2015 (amendment section 20) that the rent is only reviewed after 24 months and not 12 as in the original act, therefore he cant touch the rent until Sep '17.
If you want to take issue - do it immediately under the current set of rules and ignore whats potentially coming down the line. Current legislation has you safeguarded (to a point).

That's what he has done.. he's given Mrs whippy 9 months notice of a €500 increase w. e.f. 09/17.
So yes I think he is being extremely shrewd and trying to circumvent any new proposed 4% rent increase cap.

meeeeh

DubCount wrote: »

Contact the RTB for an opinion.

However, if the increase is ruled as invalid, you can expect the victory to be short lived. 500 gap between market rent and you current rent is a large financial incentive for the landlord to attempt to circumvent the new rules, even at a cost. What is stopping the LL taking back the property for a family member to stay in for a couple of months, renovating the property, and re-letting it at market rate? What is to stop the LL selling your property and buying another property in the same estate that he/she can charge 500 p.m. extra rent for? What is to stop the LL selling the property and investing in some other investment class ?

If you are lucky enough to stay in your current property at lower than market rent, be prepared for the LL to do nothing to improve the property or address any issues you have, because they will be only delighted to see you leave. Also, spare a thought for anyone who is looking to rent a property at the moment. I expect this move to increase short term rent inflation as new rental offers will attempt to get a higher and higher "base" rent on which to add subsequent 4% increases.

As far as I know the 4% (or 2%) rent increase is tied to the house not the renter. So getting someone out to getnew tenant in won't change a thing. At least that was a debate on Pat Kenny this morning.

mrsWhippy

meeeeh, if there was a big renovation on the property (which I know he is planning on doing eventually), would this allow a greater increase?

DubCount

mrsWhippy wrote: »

meeeeh, if there was a big renovation on the property (which I know he is planning on doing eventually), would this allow a greater increase?

Yes

meeeeh

mrsWhippy wrote: »

meeeeh, if there was a big renovation on the property (which I know he is planning on doing eventually), would this allow a greater increase?

I haven't got a clue, I am just repeating what I heard this morning.

axcel

mrsWhippy wrote: »

Hi there,

Our very shrewed landlord served us our lease and rent increase from sept '17 (by nearly 500 euro) this morning, in order to avoid the cap that is coming into effect soon.

Can he do this? I'm raging!

Thanks

Forget about the notice for a second, if legislation comes through which will be before this date then I'd think that the rent increase in September will be governed by new legislation, therefore restricted to 4%. First thing first make sure it's a valid notice as per prtb. If it's not, get him to send you one.. You'll then have 28 days from recipe of notice to go to prtb which should give enough time to see what the story will be with this legislation.

mrsWhippy

Lizcent wrote: »

First thing first make sure it's a valid notice as per prtb. If it's not, get him to send you one.. You'll then have 28 days from recipe of notice to go to prtb which should give enough time to see what the story will be with this legislation.

How can it be a valid notice though, if it's 9 months before the Sept '17 date?

murphaph

blue4ever wrote: »

Well, under current legislation he cant touch your rent until Sep 17 anyway, regardless of the proposed legislation.

So, as it stands only current legislation prevails, the rest is 'bark and bluster'.
You can politely write back and say that under the Residential Tenancies (Amendment) Act 2015 (amendment section 20) that the rent is only reviewed after 24 months and not 12 as in the original act, therefore he cant touch the rent until Sep '17.
If you want to take issue - do it immediately under the current set of rules and ignore whats potentially coming down the line. Current legislation has you safeguarded (to a point).

If the OP is smart she will not write back at all except to confirm receipt of the letter (if expected/requested). Highlighting to the LL that the tenant is going to have a big problem with the situation next September may do nothing more that spur the LL into ending the tenancy asap, by fair or foul means. Don't make an issue out of this OP and see how things transpire over the coming months.

axcel

mrsWhippy wrote: »

How can it be a valid notice though, if it's 9 months before the Sept '17 date?

Date wise I don't know, this is a question for threshold. Seems to be a lot of confusion here wether it's served on the 2 year mark or minimum 90 days before the two years. I haven't seen any examples of over 90 days so cant comment myself. By valid notice I mean 3 comparable properties and warning that you can contact prtb within 28 days if any issue.
Just coming to mind now tho that I think 28 days doesn't come into it if it's not a valid notice so maybe you are better off waiting as you'll have no restriction re dates. Sorry that's probably confusing issues

irlcncrk

mrsWhippy wrote: »

Hi there,

Our very shrewed landlord served us our lease and rent increase from sept '17 (by nearly 500 euro) this morning, in order to avoid the cap that is coming into effect soon.

Can he do this? I'm raging!

Thanks

As legislation currently stands LLs can only increase rent every 24 months with a minimum review period of 90 days. I'm no legal eagle but that 90 days I believe are part of the 24 month period and not in addition too the 24 months.

There doesn't appear to be anywhere in the legislation that states the review period can't be longer than the 90 days but it strikes me as a little odd to have it so far out. They also must supply examples of other rentals in the area that are only 3 months old.

I'm sure you could take your case to the RTB and their arbitrator would probably say that examples should be within 3 months of the proposed new rental agreement date and not almost 12 months prior.

Did you ask why such an early rent review? How did LL serve notice? Did LL supply any local rental examples? Are you in full compliance with your existing lease eg fully paid rent, all utilities paid up, no noise complaints from neighbours etc then LL will have no genuine grounds to ask you to leave prior to the lease expiry. LL could take the "oh I'm selling" route or move in a family member but they'd loose more rent than they want you to pay as an increase. So unless LL isn't overly bright that won't happen.

I'd kick it into touch and simply say as its a lot of money you'll need to give it a lot of thought. If new legislation does come into affect for your area you'll be better off. If new legislation doesn't come into play do you're own research of the local rental market and negotiate with the LL "closer" to the lease expiry date.

As a caveat to all of the above: I'm a LL myself and I'm certainly not impressed by your LLs tactics. I would always be happy to negotiate with a good tenant rather than have them leave. Your LL has just upset a good tenant for something he may not get in almost 12 months time, what a fool!

Best of luck do let us know how you get on.

Yours an annoyed LL on you behalf.

murphaph

In fairness to that LL if the OP is really 500 below market rate then the LL is right to be very worried about being locked into this (plus the 4% per annum, or less if FF get their way) low rate for years to come.

Michael D Not Higgins

OP, the landlord cannot do this. Open a dispute with the RTB.

mrsWhippy

irlcncrk wrote: »

Did you ask why such an early rent review? How did LL serve notice? Did LL supply any local rental examples? Are you in full compliance with your existing lease eg fully paid rent, all utilities paid up, no noise complaints from neighbours etc then LL will have no genuine grounds to ask you to leave prior to the lease expiry. LL could take the "oh I'm selling" route or move in a family member but they'd loose more rent than they want you to pay as an increase. So unless LL isn't overly bright that won't happen.

I'm presuming he wanted to serve notice now so he wouldn't be restricted by the 4%.

He gave this to us as we were trying to bundle the kids out the door to school so didn't get the opportunity to discuss it with him.

We have been really good tenants never paying late, doing a lot of maintenance ourselves and he's said as much himself.

I just feel this is a really sly move on his part and not sure how to deal with it. I am inclined to say nothing, but certainly not sign anything either.

davindub

Good news is he has now carried out a review, an invalid one but he cannot review the rent again for 24 months. So you should be on the same rate until December 2018.

But appeal the notice to RTB immediately (RTB don't give advice, ask Threshold for advice if needed), its not something to negotiate with your LL about.

DaraDali

mrsWhippy wrote: »

I'm presuming he wanted to serve notice now so he wouldn't be restricted by the 4%.

He gave this to us as we were trying to bundle the kids out the door to school so didn't get the opportunity to discuss it with him.

We have been really good tenants never paying late, doing a lot of maintenance ourselves and he's said as much himself.

I just feel this is a really sly move on his part and not sure how to deal with it. I am inclined to say nothing, but certainly not sign anything either.

From what I've read he served you far too early to to make this a valid rent increase, I would reply with what has been mentioned earlier and go from there!

You are safe from any rent review/rent increase till Sept 2017

murphaph

DaraDali wrote: »

From what I've read he served you far too early to to make this a valid rent increase, I would reply with what has been mentioned earlier and go from there!

You are safe from any rent review/rent increase till Sept 2017

When rents will be even higher than now probably. Say nothing OP. We don't know what's going to happen with the upcoming legislation. You might look back in September and wish you'd quietly accepted this review!

CuLT

mrsWhippy wrote: »

Hi there,

Our very shrewed landlord served us our lease and rent increase from sept '17 (by nearly 500 euro) this morning, in order to avoid the cap that is coming into effect soon.

Can he do this? I'm raging!

Thanks

Just got the same thing, "I mailed you a rent review in September, you received that, right?" - mentioned as an aside in other communication.

The timing sure is interesting.

MicktheMan

OP, be careful here. The numbers are big enough for the LL to do a refurb on the house and charge top dollar rent. My advice would be to stop the rage, approach the LL and negotiate.

April 73

It's not a valid notice.

davindub

I wouldn't comply, its far too much of an increase.

Don't worry about the LL trying to get rid of you, appeal the current notice of rent increase and the LL will have a hard time justifying any action to remove you in the near future. The courts are on the tenants side and if it was as easy as that, a lot of landlords would be getting away with it, circumvent the 2 year rule by claiming to sell the house or refurb it. All you need to do to prevent this happening is to appeal it.

tradingwizz

laserlad2010 wrote: »

afaik he may only serve you notice of a rent review on the day when the 2 year period is up (either from the last rent increase or the commencement of the lease). On that day he may give you 90 days notice. Anything earlier is invalid and should be ignored.

Thats what I've gleaned from lurking on this forum! I am open to correction.

This is not true. There is a clear distinction between the first rental increase after commencement of the first tenancy and rental increase after the previous rental increase. In this case, where there was a new tenancy, then the first rental increase can be FROM the date of the first tenancy.This means that 90 days notice can be served on the tenant 90 days prior to the 2 year anniversary of the first tenancy.

Otherwise, it is 2 years from rent review to rent review.

pobber1

tradingwizz wrote: »

This is not true. There is a clear distinction between the first rental increase after commencement of the first tenancy and rental increase after the previous rental increase. In this case, where there was a new tenancy, then the first rental increase can be FROM the date of the first tenancy.This means that 90 days notice can be served on the tenant 90 days prior to the 2 year anniversary of the first tenancy.

Otherwise, it is 2 years from rent review to rent review.

Do you have a link that details the difference between a first tenancy and one that has already received a rent review? There is so much conflicting information on this topic.

Thanks.

davindub

tradingwizz wrote: »

This is not true. There is a clear distinction between the first rental increase after commencement of the first tenancy and rental increase after the previous rental increase. In this case, where there was a new tenancy, then the first rental increase can be FROM the date of the first tenancy.This means that 90 days notice can be served on the tenant 90 days prior to the 2 year anniversary of the first tenancy.

Otherwise, it is 2 years from rent review to rent review.

Source?

tradingwizz

davindub wrote: »

Source?

The source is the RTB itself, which has to be read very carefully. Please see:
http://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/dispute-resolution/the-three-stages-of-a-tenancy/rent-reviews

davindub

tradingwizz wrote: »

The source is the RTB itself, which has to be read very carefully. Please see:
http://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/dispute-resolution/the-three-stages-of-a-tenancy/rent-reviews

Do you think that's accurate enough for a ll to rely on? Who do you think wrote the copy?

BabySlam

davindub wrote: »

Do you think that's accurate enough for a ll to rely on? Who do you think wrote the copy?

Presumably a legal drafter.

tradingwizz

davindub wrote: »

Do you think that's accurate enough for a ll to rely on? Who do you think wrote the copy?

RTB is THE regulatory authority. I would probably stick with their interpretation of the law rather than inventing it myself.

pobber1

tradingwizz wrote: »

RTB is THE regulatory authority. I would probably stick with their interpretation of the law rather than inventing it myself.

Is this example you are referring to?

"Michael and Stephen, a couple renting a 2 bed house in Cork, signed a lease in March 2015, at a rate of €900 per month. Michael and Stephen were worried that their landlord would increase the rent in March 2016 to €1,000 per month. Now, Michael and Stephen do not need to worry about a rent increase until March 2017."

davindub

tradingwizz wrote: »

RTB is THE regulatory authority. I would probably stick with their interpretation of the law rather than inventing it myself.

THE RTB is not the regulatory authority.

What you are reading is information someone created to explain how the act affects some people. Wrong information has been left on the website in the past. What matters is the Act itself, the high court judgements and discussion of the act and then the tribunal reports.

But having read it now, in fairness to the website, it definitely does not claim anything like this:

"There is a clear distinction between the first rental increase after commencement of the first tenancy and rental increase after the previous rental increase. In this case, where there was a new tenancy, then the first rental increase can be FROM the date of the first tenancy.This means that 90 days notice can be served on the tenant 90 days prior to the 2 year anniversary of the first tenancy.

Otherwise, it is 2 years from rent review to rent review."

Michael D Not Higgins

davindub wrote: »

THE RTB is not the regulatory authority.

What you are reading is information someone created to explain how the act affects some people. Wrong information has been left on the website in the past. What matters is the Act itself, the high court judgements and discussion of the act and then the tribunal reports.

But having read it now, in fairness to the website, it definitely does not claim anything like this:

"There is a clear distinction between the first rental increase after commencement of the first tenancy and rental increase after the previous rental increase. In this case, where there was a new tenancy, then the first rental increase can be FROM the date of the first tenancy.This means that 90 days notice can be served on the tenant 90 days prior to the 2 year anniversary of the first tenancy.

Otherwise, it is 2 years from rent review to rent review."

Exactly, the layman text is sloppy and it should read "do not need to worry about a notice of rent increase until March 2017".

There are too many people trying to rely on this wording as their basis for their interpretation when the law is clear that the review is separate from the increase and cannot be done until 24 months have elapsed. The notice follows and is 90 days.

syndrome777

how close location vise do the comparable properties need to be from the one we are renting? for rent comparison

say if they(LL) compare Portobello and Rialto, those are not the same areas and should not expect same rent for the same size property.

am I right?

Michael D Not Higgins

syndrome777 wrote: »

how close location vise do the comparable properties need to be from the one we are renting? for rent comparison

say if they(LL) compare Portobello and Rialto, those are not the same areas and should not expect same rent for the same size property.

am I right?

It is intentionally vague to allow for interpretation. The phrasing is 'comparable area'. If the referenced area is not comparable it could be grounds for a dispute into the validity of the notice.

campingcarist

irlcncrk wrote: »

As legislation currently stands LLs can only increase rent every 24 months with a minimum review period of 90 days. I'm no legal eagle but that 90 days I believe are part of the 24 month period and not in addition too the 24 months.

There doesn't appear to be anywhere in the legislation that states the review period can't be longer than the 90 days but it strikes me as a little odd to have it so far out. They also must supply examples of other rentals in the area that are only 3 months old.

I'm sure you could take your case to the RTB and their arbitrator would probably say that examples should be within 3 months of the proposed new rental agreement date and not almost 12 months prior.

Did you ask why such an early rent review? How did LL serve notice? Did LL supply any local rental examples? Are you in full compliance with your existing lease eg fully paid rent, all utilities paid up, no noise complaints from neighbours etc then LL will have no genuine grounds to ask you to leave prior to the lease expiry. LL could take the "oh I'm selling" route or move in a family member but they'd loose more rent than they want you to pay as an increase. So unless LL isn't overly bright that won't happen.

I'd kick it into touch and simply say as its a lot of money you'll need to give it a lot of thought. If new legislation does come into affect for your area you'll be better off. If new legislation doesn't come into play do you're own research of the local rental market and negotiate with the LL "closer" to the lease expiry date.

As a caveat to all of the above: I'm a LL myself and I'm certainly not impressed by your LLs tactics. I would always be happy to negotiate with a good tenant rather than have them leave. Your LL has just upset a good tenant for something he may not get in almost 12 months time, what a fool!

Best of luck do let us know how you get on.

Yours an annoyed LL on you behalf.

From the 2015 Act:

In this section ‘amount of rent sought’ means the amount of rent specified for the letting of a dwelling in an advertisement the date of which falls within the period of 4 weeks immediately preceding the date on which the notice referred to in subsection (2) is served.”.

Now, the landlord may be losing by his early notification of the new rent. He doesn't know what the rent for similar properties will be in a number of months' time.

Ace2007

QQ, if your renting a house below market value (I.e from a relative), is the house rental capped at 4% on review, or can they increase it to market value, and then say 4% max on review?

Selik

Ace2007 wrote: »

QQ, if your renting a house below market value (I.e from a relative), is the house rental capped at 4% on review, or can they increase it to market value, and then say 4% max on review?

How would anybody know what rent the relative is paying apart from the relative and owner? In fact in a regular rental situation the same question could be asked... HOW are the PRTB going to know if the advertised rent is correct on newly rented properties in situations like for example when a tenant leaves of his/her own accord?

April 73

I don't think the RTB will know. The system is not that sophisticated.

Clampdown

Call me Al wrote: »

That's what he has done.. he's given Mrs whippy 9 months notice of a €500 increase w. e.f. 09/17.
So yes I think he is being extremely shrewd and trying to circumvent any new proposed 4% rent increase cap.

But he can't do that because it can only be raised to the market rate at the time of the review, which is impossible to predict 9 months in advance.

Which is why it's an invalid notice.

Lol, this is how Irish landlord's do 'shrewd'.

We're gonna need hard caps, these proposed rent measures are a joke.

Clampdown

davindub wrote: »

Good news is he has now carried out a review, an invalid one but he cannot review the rent again for 24 months. So you should be on the same rate until December 2018.

But appeal the notice to RTB immediately (RTB don't give advice, ask Threshold for advice if needed), its not something to negotiate with your LL about.

But what if market rates fall? OP is locked into the high rate. I know it's unlikely but that's the whole reason the review can't be done this early in relation to the increase coming into effect.

The 2nd part I agree with totally. File the dispute straight away. A 500 p/m increase is insane.

mrsWhippy

Clampdown wrote: »

File the dispute straight away. A 500 p/m increase is insane.

OP here again. Thanks all for the responses.

I agree, it is insane. But we are actually paying about 400 or 450 less than current (crazy) market rates. We were left alone for about 5 years for various reasons before our first rent review where rent went up 300 a month (Aug 15). That was giving us a 'good deal' as it was still a bit under market rates at that time.

Now the LL is facing the next 3 years or so getting a much lower rate and I guess that was the reason for the panic review.

Hypothetically speaking, could he ask us to meet him in the middle, or is he LEGALLY allowed ONLY charge us 4% on what we are paying now?

What would you do in our situation? Not that I have an extra 500 quid p/m but would you negotiate a rent sum somewhere in the middle given our history? Or would you just file a dispute?

GGTrek

mrsWhippy wrote: »

Clampdown wrote: »

File the dispute straight away. A 500 p/m increase is insane.

OP here again. Thanks all for the responses.

I agree, it is insane. But we are actually paying about 400 or 450 less than current (crazy) market rates. We were left alone for about 5 years for various reasons before our first rent review where rent went up 300 a month (Aug 15). That was giving us a 'good deal' as it was still a bit under market rates at that time.

Now the LL is facing the next 3 years or so getting a much lower rate and I guess that was the reason for the panic review.

Hypothetically speaking, could he ask us to meet him in the middle, or is he LEGALLY allowed ONLY charge us 4% on what we are paying now?

What would you do in our situation? Not that I have an extra 500 quid p/m but would you negotiate a rent sum somewhere in the middle given our history? Or would you just file a dispute?

My suggestion as a landlord. The RTB route should be your last resort, not the first as the RTB brigade is suggesting. The RTB brigade people on this forum have no skin in the game and they risk nothing with their advice, you do.
Taking your landlord to RTB without first discussing the issues and negotiating will be a sure way to p**s him off big time and a sure way to loose your tenancy within 12-18 months with a long a stressful legal battle.
You have been paying below market rent for many years now, this rent review is a natural reaction of the landlord to the latest joke of legislation from government. My suggestion is negotiate and explain you situation about the fact that you cannot pay the new rent, explain your current income minus expenses and show him that with a 500 increase you will have to leave. If he is a reasonable person and you have been a good tenant, it is in his interest to lower his demands.