Breeding for docility in cattle.

pedigree 6

I was watching a science programme on BBC4 this evening and it was about dogs and foxes and wolves and whether docility/showing affection to humans was nature/breeding or nurture/how they are brought up.

In an experiment a researcher raised a wolf pup at home in her home along with two other young dogs. The dogs would obey her according to her voice and knew when they did wrong. The wolf grew to be more independent however and would take no notice of her and instead was going the other way and would growl at her (when eating for example) and just grew to be completely bossing his human owner.

Then they showed a Russian trial on silver foxes that has been running for 50 years. In this trial they started by selecting the top 5% of foxes every year for docility to humans and mating the docile ones and continuing this every generation. Now fifty years later when the human comes into feed the foxes in the shed, the foxes wag their tails and make a (happy fox noise:p) and can be handled with ease and the researchers have some of them as pets in the family home.
Now the interesting thing that also happened and the Russians doing the trial said they weren't breeding for but just came about when breeding for docility, some of the foxes were born with different hair colours (more white patches and white on their heads) and their tails were curling up.
Basically they were starting to look like domestic dogs that you and I know.
They also bred a control group who weren't bred for docility and the difference was remarkable nearly like 2 different species.

Now to the cattle bit. I was thinking about this and I know here if we ever came across a wild heifer when first milking and she didn't calm down, that that was it, she would be gone to the factory. Hasn't happened in a while but it we had such cases when I was younger. Maybe we didn't know it or my father did but that wild gene was never allowed to get going in the herd and be breeding from such animals.

The part about the white patches coming in the docile fox offspring also interested me. I wonder is the same thing happening in cattle i.e are cattle with white patches generally quieter? If so it would be at odds with cattle breed societies who aim to keep a breed of a solid colour.

There is breeding programmes or certain breeders in certain breeds focusing on docility. There's a limousin breeder near me who has focused on docility and now breeds some really quiet limousins. There was an open day there a few years ago and even with a crowd of strangers in a field it was plain and pleasing to see it in the cows and calves. So it can be bred for no matter the breed. I forget if there was any white patches on these cows (probably not allowed).

But you will always get the throw back or maybe wrong combination of genetics that can breed a wild, nervous flighty animal. Anyway I thought the TV programme was interesting and the (my) comparisons with cattle breeding.

Grueller

Great thread pedigree.

I think there is an element of both in it tbh. We have generally quiet stock but have bought some in that are pure mentallers. Thing is after a while they will calm down and be quiet when kept with quieter cattle. When strangers appear though the flight in essence cessation back out. I think docility can be nurtured in to a degree but naturally flighty cattle will always have a streak of it.

patsy_mccabe

A big difference too between nervousness and aggression.

pedigree 6

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

A big difference too between nervousness and aggression.

I think aggression comes from nervousness though. Maybe not in all cases though but mostly.
Usually when they are afraid, it turns to attack (self defense really, scaredy cats).

Edit: says the dairy farmer.;):rolleyes:

parishsavings

pedigree 6 wrote: »

The part about the white patches coming in the docile fox offspring also interested me. I wonder is the same thing happening in cattle i.e are cattle with white patches generally quieter?

Hereford probably a good example in this respect

tanko

What about Aberdeen Angus the quietest of the whole lot (along with Hereford).
I jacked a calf out of an AA cow while she stood in the middle of a field, haven't managed that with a Lim yet.

pedigree 6

tanko wrote: »

What about Aberdeen Angus the quietest of the whole lot (along with Hereford).
I jacked a calf out of an AA cow while she stood in the middle of a field, haven't managed that with a Lim yet.

Forget about the white part for a while.

There's 2 examples now the angus and Hereford.
In Britain the horse was the choice animal for draft work and these cattle breeds were primarily bred for meat production (and docility) by the farmer.

Whereas in Europe the continental beef breeds were primarily bred for draft work and a bit of spark/fire was needed/desired to continue pulling all day.
Perhaps???

mf240

Animals will definitely grow quieter if handled quietly. But it's also in there breeding.

A thick man will usually have wild cattle.

Farmer

IMO, this, and also disease resistance, should have been factored more into the beef data genomics scheme

greysides

I think the Limousin Society did a great job quietening the breed and showed it could be done.
However recently, I see the wildness coming back into pedigree stock. Maybe the breeders are focusing on other traits again.

carrollsno1

Remember reading something a few years back I think it was on a charolais yearbook about how where the start or the ring of hair is on the animals head affects there docility I.e whether the ring is between the eyes or above the eyes now that is not the example they were given just throwing it out there

tanko

Local vet here got his leg broken in two places recently while testing young bulls. Two of them went for each other and knocked a gate on him.

Bellview

Farmer wrote:

IMO, this, and also disease resistance, should have been factored more into the beef data genomics scheme

With the greatest respect to the genomic scheme they don't even have the basics correct so expecting to get docile right is definitely a step too far now.
When breeders taking part in the icbf own maternal bull program were found not recording c sections etc and icbf did not punish them.. questions the credibility of icbf as policeman

patsy_mccabe

The Belgian blues are the quietest I've ever seen. Had a heifer a few years back and I used to have to push her out of the way. That's saying something fior a suckler calf.

Lady Haywire

I'd believe a bit of both; genes and handling, flighty/aggressive cattle will usually breed similar but would it also not have something to do with it being learned from their dams?
There's a lot to be said for approaching cattle in a passive manner, along with walking through them on a daily basis (or pushing down slats) instead of driving past and looing at them out the window to move them. Most cattle here have been bred and handled by me & the father so we know their characteristics, we wouldn't dare go near two at calving time, but other than that they're fine. We've kept two heifers from these cows but weaned them early and gave them lots of extra handling and now they can be handled in the field.

Even today though, it's gas how some things come through in cattle. We have one very stubborn cow who is the 'matriarch', won't go through gaps, will stand in the door and not let others by her etc, quiet as anything, just her way or no way. And her heifer is the exact same, stands there looking at you when you're shoving her on the arse to move her on Twasn't off the grass she licked that habit!

GiantPencil

Lady Haywire wrote: »

I'd believe a bit of both; genes and handling, flighty/aggressive cattle will usually breed similar but would it also not have something to do with it being learned from their dams?
There's a lot to be said for approaching cattle in a passive manner, along with walking through them on a daily basis (or pushing down slats) instead of driving past and looing at them out the window to move them. Most cattle here have been bred and handled by me & the father so we know their characteristics, we wouldn't dare go near two at calving time, but other than that they're fine. We've kept two heifers from these cows but weaned them early and gave them lots of extra handling and now they can be handled in the field.

Even today though, it's gas how some things come through in cattle. We have one very stubborn cow who is the 'matriarch', won't go through gaps, will stand in the door and not let others by her etc, quiet as anything, just her way or no way. And her heifer is the exact same, stands there looking at you when you're shoving her on the arse to move her on Twasn't off the grass she licked that habit!

I've the same issue here too. The cow that's the boss commands the best area to eat silage and can only be housed with her daughters or grand daughters. Any other cattle will be abused left right and centre! Her offspring have picked up those habits too, they know their mom/granny is the boss. Have had animals on the receiving end lose a lot of condition as a result when they are inside, amazing the bullying that goes on with cattle!!

pedigree 6

I'm back to my foxes again.:D

No handling has a big bearing on how they turn out. It's the same with cattle and horses.

But in the trial with the foxes they would swap the quiet bred cubs onto the wild fox mothers to see would they pick up the traits from their new adopted mother and no they still grew to be friendly with humans. I think they said the gene to be friendly and inquisitive had just too much infuence on them. Basically they said these new types never really grew up and had a childish/adolescent behaviour.

p dogg

Just thinkling there hereford, simmental, shorthorn, belgian blue, speckle park, belted Galloway and nearly all dairy breeds are the most quiet and docile cattle going and coincidently have patches of white in their markings. Angus being the exception of course.

charolais0153

p dogg wrote: »

Just thinkling there hereford, simmental, shorthorn, belgian blue, speckle park, belted Galloway and nearly all dairy breeds are the most quiet and docile cattle going and coincidently have patches of white in their markings. Angus being the exception of course.

Charolais

Mooooo

Lady Haywire wrote: »

I'd believe a bit of both; genes and handling, flighty/aggressive cattle will usually breed similar but would it also not have something to do with it being learned from their dams?
There's a lot to be said for approaching cattle in a passive manner, along with walking through them on a daily basis (or pushing down slats) instead of driving past and looing at them out the window to move them. Most cattle here have been bred and handled by me & the father so we know their characteristics, we wouldn't dare go near two at calving time, but other than that they're fine. We've kept two heifers from these cows but weaned them early and gave them lots of extra handling and now they can be handled in the field.

Even today though, it's gas how some things come through in cattle. We have one very stubborn cow who is the 'matriarch', won't go through gaps, will stand in the door and not let others by her etc, quiet as anything, just her way or no way. And her heifer is the exact same, stands there looking at you when you're shoving her on the arse to move her on Twasn't off the grass she licked that habit!

I dunno about it being learned from the dams, have cows going thru parlour who have same temperament as the mammies and they hardly spent 24 hours with them as calves. Have cows sired by same bulls as well how are nervous out despite stock from same group growing up being quiet out. Handling helps but Def in the genes

Limestone Cowboy

I definitely think genetics has a big say in it. Some cattle cant be quietened. I had a few OEI lim calves one year and I will never forget them, downright dangerous would be an understatement even out of quiet cows and he was around a long time when I used him. The A.I company's have a lot to answer for keeping the likes of him in stud. The current bull here was 5 stars for docility when I bought him and there was a noticeable difference in the calves he bred docility wise, still get a few giddy ones but a lot quieter overall compared to previous bulls.

patsy_mccabe

Amazing alright to see similar behaviour being passed down from mother to daughter. I had one right bitch of a cow a few years back. Got rid of her as she was dangerous at calving. She wouldn't even stand still to let her own drink, just keep walking away head down grazing. Kept a Simmental heifer off her and she does exactly the same thing. Even shakes her head at you in the same way.

Donegalforever

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

A big difference too between nervousness and aggression.

I agree entirely.

I have one red Limousin Cow that is very nervous. She is well used to me by now. If she feel cornered or trapped, she would do anything to get away. At the same time I wouldn't describe her as aggressive.

However, we will part company shortly as I am afraid that someone may get badly hurt, or worse.

The Cuban

Docility should be one of the main traits to look for in a replacement cow. That said I dont think the ICBF or some of the AI companies out there thinks so. At the moment they are pushing some very wild stock as replacements. HCA for example, an easy calving Limousine bull that has very high Maternal traits yet the calves off him are absolutely stone mental.

benneca1

Interesting about genetic component of docility. In Spain where the fighting bulls are bred for aggressivity they select only aggressive females for breeding.

KatyMac

Had two shorthorn heifers from a black cow - year difference in age.
The first of them was nervous as a calf and downright dangerous as a new mother. I gave her a chance to settle with no luck. She raised her first (and only) calf.
Her full sister on the other hand is totally different. Can be scratched in the field. No worries about going near her calf and the AI lad could have done her in the middle of the field if he wanted to.
The only issue I've ever had with their mother is that she can jump like a steeplechaser when calling. First calf she had was from neighbour's charolais bull and I have to be really on the ball to get her in or she's gone avisiting.

Base price

How come females of the dairy breeds are generally docile but their male counterparts are quite agressive e.g. Friesian and Jersey bulls.
There used to be a pedigree herd of Jersey's near me and the owners had to tie car tyres to the inside of the gates to stop the bulls from damaging themselves when the charged the gates :eek:
I had a pedigree heifer that I bought in and she always had a dodgy temperament event though she was well handled and shown. All her offspring had a simular temperament with the result that I either finished the heifers or sold the weanling bulls as commercials.

mf240

There's a woman farming near us and she would start a row in an empty house. I'm told her father was the same

patsy_mccabe

On the TG4 programme Loachra Gael about DJ Carry there's a story where one of his teachers recalls being at a match when DJ was young. The auld fella said who's that young fella? He strikes the ball the same way as paddy x. Paddy x was DJ' s uncle.

20silkcut

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

On the TG4 programme Loachra Gael about DJ Carry there's a story where one of his teachers recalls being at a match when DJ was young. The auld fella said who's that young fella? He strikes the ball the same way as paddy x. Paddy x was DJ' s uncle.

Richie hogan on the current Kilkenny team is a cousin of DJ Carey and he has the pure cut of him.
Heard rumours of football breeding programmes in Brazil where good footballers were like stud horses.

The man in red and black

You would have to say there is a definite genetic component with good repeatability. How often do you hear dairy farmers say "All the heifers off of such and such and AI bull were cracked!"

One thing I would firmly believe as a vet(stranger in the yard) is that a docile animal under normal circumstances isn't always quiet when a stranger walks up. I have given up trusting cows calving. Last week was a classic. Luckily nobody in hospital. I thought the cow was a bit wary looking when I walked in. I was assured she is fine. 5 mins later she went straight at the owner. I'm not joking this man must be 16-17 stone and she got him right with the poll of her head into his stomach, lifted him off the ground and sent him 3-4 feet across the shed into a feeder. I had to batter her with a gate and a sryinge(It's all I had in my hand) to stop her second attempt at him. I firmly believe a cow like that deserves no second chance, don't care that she was hormonal and a stranger there. Plus if it had been a heifer calf I would have been sending it out the road too.

tanko

He's lucky he wasn't killed. He should have put her in the headlock before she saw you tho. Did she settle after that?

patsy_mccabe

I often calve cows for my neighbours and I always bring the head-halter with me. Don't care how quiet they say they are, I always tie them up first.

The man in red and black

tanko wrote: »

He's lucky he wasn't killed. He should have put her in the headlock before she saw you tho. Did she settle after that?

In fairness once she was in the head gate she was reasonable. A few kicks during the operation but not a particularly bad one.

Willfarman

The mad gene in the limousine must of always been linked to best shaped growthiest cattle back along the line for many generations.,

Bellview

Willfarman wrote:

The mad gene in the limousine must of always been linked to best shaped growthiest cattle back along the line for many generations.,

Willfarman wrote:

The mad gene in the limousine must of always been linked to best shaped growthiest cattle back along the line for many generations.,

If icbf find the gene might save a few lives.

patsy_mccabe

There are a few theories as to why the limousin and Saler are so wild. Some say the French sold all their cracked cattle to paddy when he went over. I'm inclined to believe that they are more of an outdoor survive on their own type, so need to be mad to fend off any wolves etc that go near their calves.
I bought a young in calf cow last week. Stone mad when she came into the ring. I looked at her in the pen beforehand and thought she was fine. Got her home and she is as quiet as a lamb. Hard to tell with them sometimes.

charolais0153

Another theory is that they were crossed with deer a long time ago and have that wild streak in some of them

greysides

I don't think deer and cattle are capable of interbreeding so while it sounds nice we can Scotch that theory.

mf240

Limousines are quiet









Wild.

Mac Taylor

First off, I breed pbr limousine so I may well be biased. The majority of the cattle that I have bred are quite and easily handled. (Touch wood) anything that hasn't has been slaughtered and that's the key. Have 2 cows purchased as weanlings that will not see another season. One is pbnr and is pure devious and the other while more nervous than devious is just too dangerous around the place. If lads culled these type of cattle (factory) rather than passing them on you wouldn't be long sorting out the problem. Btw limousin cattle prefer to be lead rather than driven. I see lads near me who herd the cattle in the jeep and wonder when they go to gather them that they are wild. A shake of nuts also goes a long way to making cattle docile.

Lady Haywire

^ +1 to that, 80% of our herd is now pb lims and majority are pets. Biggest disaster is trying to herd them from behind and as some of ye might have seen on Twitter, few shouts and they come running for a move.
Our wildest animal is a bought in SIx, nearly all the cows we bred ourselves can be handled in the field for a scratch etc. Hence we're going to buy in as little as possible for as long as possible, it only adds hardship when you don't know how an animal has been treated all its life.

Base price

As I posted earlier, how come bulls from dairy breeds (FR, Je) are fairy aggressive compaired to the females yet continental bulls are seldom so.
I know that there can be exceptions.

greysides

Base price wrote: »

As I posted earlier, how come bulls from dairy breeds (FR, Je) are fairy aggressive compaired to the females yet continental bulls are seldom so.
I know that there can be exceptions.

I don't know but could it be how they're reared with hand reared animals losing their respect for humans quicker?

Base price

greysides wrote: »

I don't know but could it be how they're reared with hand reared animals losing their respect for humans quicker?

Good point, I never thought of that.

patsy_mccabe

''To further reduce the danger, dairies that use bulls should consider raising bull calves on a nurse cow. Raising bull calves on a nurse cow will imprint them more strongly to their own kind and further reduce the tendency to attack.''

http://www.grandin.com/behaviour/principles/preventing.bull.accidents.html

greysides

Thanks, I must have read that sometime before.

Limestone Cowboy

greysides wrote: »

Thanks, I must have read that sometime before.

Has testosterone levels any affect on it greysides?

greysides

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Has testosterone levels any affect on it greysides?

Bulls tend to be more dangerous during the breeding season alright.

Talking about Limo's, ever notice the deeper red the neck muscle area goes during the breeding season?

Dickie10

docility is my number one, i began keeping white head and angus suck calves as cows , great success. id love toknow where i could source simmental cross from a freisan herd any ideas?