Free Will or God's Plan

If we have free will then how can God be all knowing?

Or

If God is all knowing how can we have anything but the illusion of free will?

Skommando

That's a classic example of a non sequitur.

If I put an apple and an orange in front of my kid, I know which one he's going to pick.

Because I know, does that mean I mus't be his parent ? or does it mean my kid has no free will ? or does that mean he only has the illusion of free will ?

Skommando

Skommando wrote: »

That's a classic example of a non sequitur.

If I put an apple and an orange in front of my kid, I know which one he's going to pick.

Because I know, does that mean I mus't be his parent ? or does it mean my kid has no free will ? or does that mean he only has the illusion of free will ?

Do you have 100% knowledge that he'll pick one specific one every single time? You don't have absolute knowledge of the outcome

Skommando

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you have 100% knowledge that he'll pick one specific one every single time? You don't have absolute knowledge of the outcome

but if I did, why would that mean he has no free will ?

Skommando

Skommando wrote: »

but if I did, why would that mean he has no free will ?

How has he free will if the choice is predetermined? There is no "choice"

Also, you're literally comparing apples and oranges. Put 2 apples down but one is poisoned would you guaranteed to know his decision then? If no then you don't have absolute knowledge. If yes then where is his "choice" as it's already predetermined?

Nick Park

I think the problem comes from viewing time as a two-dimensional line running in only one direction. You are at a point on that line, and you cannot conceive of God seeing time differently from how you see it.

Now try to think of God as standing in three dimensions watching you on that line.

If God is eternal, standing outside time, then his foreknowledge does not limit your freedom of choice (since to an eternal being there is only now - no before or after). The key thing is whether your actions are a consequence of God's knowledge, or whether His knowledge is a consequence of your actions. If His knowledge is a consequence of your actions, then free-will is not interfered with, irrespective of whether God is looking forwards or backwards from your limited flat-line perception.

tritriagain

Nick Park wrote: »

I think the problem comes from viewing time as a two-dimensional line running in only one direction. You are at a point on that line, and you cannot conceive of God seeing time differently from how you see it.

Now try to think of God as standing in three dimensions watching you on that line.

If God is eternal, standing outside time, then his foreknowledge does not limit your freedom of choice (since to an eternal being there is only now - no before or after). The key thing is whether your actions are a consequence of God's knowledge, or whether His knowledge is a consequence of your actions. If His knowledge is a consequence of your actions, then free-will is not interfered with, irrespective of whether God is looking forwards or backwards from your limited flat-line perception.

I doubt if even an all knowing god knows what youre talking about

Skommando

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, you're literally comparing apples and oranges. Put 2 apples down but one is poisoned would you guaranteed to know his decision then? If no then you don't have absolute knowledge. If yes then where is his "choice" as it's already predetermined?

Just because I happen to know what choice someone will choose, clearly explain how has their choice been made by me ?

Skommando

Nick Park wrote: »

I think the problem comes from viewing time as a two-dimensional line running in only one direction. You are at a point on that line, and you cannot conceive of God seeing time differently from how you see it.

Now try to think of God as standing in three dimensions watching you on that line.

If God is eternal, standing outside time, then his foreknowledge does not limit your freedom of choice (since to an eternal being there is only now - no before or after). The key thing is whether your actions are a consequence of God's knowledge, or whether His knowledge is a consequence of your actions. If His knowledge is a consequence of your actions, then free-will is not interfered with, irrespective of whether God is looking forwards or backwards from your limited flat-line perception.

Or in other words, even in our limited capacity we already know that Hilary will chose to climb Everest and Oswald will chose to shoot JFK because we already know what choice they have made. I also know where my friend will get married next week, because they have already made that choice.

Nick Park

Nick Park wrote: »

I think the problem comes from viewing time as a two-dimensional line running in only one direction. You are at a point on that line, and you cannot conceive of God seeing time differently from how you see it.

Now try to think of God as standing in three dimensions watching you on that line.

If God is eternal, standing outside time, then his foreknowledge does not limit your freedom of choice (since to an eternal being there is only now - no before or after). The key thing is whether your actions are a consequence of God's knowledge, or whether His knowledge is a consequence of your actions. If His knowledge is a consequence of your actions, then free-will is not interfered with, irrespective of whether God is looking forwards or backwards from your limited flat-line perception.

If time is predetermined then you have no choice, as it is all already mapped out.

Skommando

Skommando wrote: »

Or in other words, even in our limited capacity we already know that Hilary will chose to climb Everest and Oswald will chose to shoot JFK because we already know what choice they have made. I also know where my friend will get married next week, because they have already made that choice.

None of that makes any sense whatsoever. It's a moronic interpertation of cause and effect.

And you do not know that your friends will get married, you have a high probability

Skommando

Skommando wrote: »

Just because I happen to know what choice someone will choose, clearly explain how has their choice been made by me ?

Who said it has been made by you, that is terrible logic.

If the all knowing God already knows what their action will be, will 100% certainty, then there was no choice, as the action was predetermined. That is not free will.

If there is free will and God can be surprised (by an action outside of his plan), then he is not all knowing

Skommando

Deleted User wrote: »

And you do not know that your friends will get married, you have a high probability

And even if I have absolute certainty where my friend is getting married, how would that remove their free will ? You've never answered that question.

Deleted User wrote: »

None of that makes any sense whatsoever. It's a moranic interpertation of cause and effect.

And now instead of wanting an actual discussion, you've very predictably, chosen ad homiem. Farewell.

uck51js9zml2yt

tritriagain wrote: »

I doubt if even an all knowing god knows what youre talking about

I know exactly what Nick is talking about!

God sees the past , present and future at the one time.
It doesn't take away from my freewill or from the fact that He knows what I'll do tomorrow.

Skommando

Skommando wrote: »

And now instead of wanting an actual discussion, you've very predictably, chosen ad homiem. Farewell.

Calling out someone for postulating a completely incorrect sequence of events is not ad hominem.

Calling you an idiot would be but I did not and will not do that.

Now, can you explain how your choices already being determined (and you can not deviate from those actions) is free will

Franklin Enough Nectar

Franklin Enough Nectar wrote: »

I know exactly what Nick is talking about!

God sees the past , present and future at the one time.
It doesn't take away from my freewill or from the fact that He knows what I'll do tomorrow.

If God sees the future and knows it, can you change it?

Skommando

Deleted User wrote: »

Who said it has been made by you, that is terrible logic.

You claim that by knowing someone's choice that removes their free will. Explain how it does ?

If the all knowing God already knows what their action will be, will 100% certainty, then there was no choice, as the action was predetermined. That is not free will.

Again, you claim here that by knowing someone's choice that removes their free will. Explain how it does ?

Deleted User wrote: »

If there is free will and God can be surprised (by an action outside of his plan), then he is not all knowing

How do you know he is 'surprised' ? Freewill is 'the plan'

Skommando

Skommando wrote: »

You claim that by knowing someone's choice that removes their free will. Explain how it does ?

If the all knowing God already knows what their action will be, will 100% certainty, then there was no choice, as the action was predetermined. That is not free will.



Again, you claim here that by knowing someone's choice that removes their free will. Explain how it does ?

Can you deviate from the choice if the answer is already known?
No, then it is not a choice and the action is predetermined, how is it free will. You just don't know that the action was always going to be the one laid out.

You have no effect on the outcome

Skommando wrote: »

How do you know he is 'surprised' ?

If he is not surprised then you had no effect on the outcome and his plan continues. You had no real choice and therefore no free will to make a choice

If he is surprised then you had a choice made by you alone. Then he is not all knowing

Skommando

Deleted User wrote: »

Now, can you explain how your choices already being determined (and you can not deviate from those actions) is free will

How are my choices already determined and how can I choose not deviate from them ?

If my friend choose to paint his house pink, I know it will turn out pink, if he chooses to paint his house blue, I know it will turn out blue. Please explain how my knowing that removes his choice ?

Skommando

Skommando wrote: »

How are my choices already determined and how can I choose not deviate from them ?

If my friend choose to paint his house pink, I know it will turn out pink, if he chooses to paint his house blue, I know it will turn out blue. Please explain how my knowing that removes his choice ?

And if he decides (without telling you) to paint it red? IT turns out red without you expecting, based on his choice deviating from your preconceived notion.
You were not all knowing.


Now what if he had a "choice" between pink and blue. You had seen the future and KNEW it has to be blue. You do not tell him this and he chooses blue.
Did he have a choice there?
Remember; you knew with absolute knowledge that it had to be blue.

Skommando

Deleted User wrote: »

And if he decides (without telling you) to paint it red? IT turns out red without you expecting, based on his choice deviating from your preconceived notion.
You were not all knowing.

If he chooses to paint the house red then I know his house will turn out red. It's not rocket science.

Deleted User wrote: »

Now what if he had a "choice" between pink and blue. You had seen the future and KNEW it has to be blue. You do not tell him this and he chooses blue.
Did he have a choice there?
Remember; you knew with absolute knowledge that it had to be blue.

I doesn't have to be blue, it can be whatever colour he chooses, that's free will. I just happen to know the house will be green if he chooses green.

You'll have to explain by me knowing that, how that removes his free will ? - Something you've consistently failed to explain.

Stone Deaf 4evr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

None of that makes any sense whatsoever. It's a moronic interpertation of cause and effect.

And you do not know that your friends will get married, you have a high probability

Calling out someone as having a 'moranic interpertation' whilst simultaneously misspelling moronic and interpretation. Ah the irony. And I see you managed to edit one mistake before I got to quote.

Skommando

Skommando wrote: »

If he chooses to paint the house red then I know his house will turn out red. It's not rocket science.

But you were expecting Pink or Blue. How do you magically know that it will be red, if he did not tell you??

Skommando wrote: »

I doesn't have to be blue, it can be whatever colour he chooses, that's free will. I just happen to know the house will be green if he chooses green.

You'll have to explain by me knowing that, how that removes his free will ? - Something you've consistently failed to explain.

OK I will make this super simple.

God sees the future. He KNOWS that the house will be BLUE.
Your friend, in the present, has a can of blue and a can of pink.

Which one goes on the house?

Stone Deaf 4evr

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

Calling out someone as having a 'moranic interpertation' whilst simultaneously misspelling moronic and interpretation. Ah the irony. And I see you managed to edit one mistake before I got to quote.

Oh no, my fat fingers on my phone. What will I ever do? How will I get me edumication?

Oh wait, already have my 2 degrees, ah well


Fancy explaining how you have free will when your path is already set out?

Skommando

Deleted User wrote: »

But you were expecting Pink or Blue. How do you magically know that it will be red, if he did not tell you??

I'm expecting him to choose whatever colour he wants, and I know that if he chooses black the house will turn out black. Please explain how this removes his free will.

Deleted User wrote: »

OK I will make this super simple.

God sees the future. He KNOWS that the house will be BLUE.
Your friend, in the present, has a can of blue and a can of pink.

Which one goes on the house?

Whichever one he wants, that's his choice. I know the house will turn out pink if he chooses pink, and blue if he chooses blue. Please explain that be me knowing that, how it removes his free will ?

Skommando

Skommando wrote: »

I'm expecting him to choose whatever colour he wants, and I know that if he chooses black the house will turn out black. Please explain how this removes his free will.

It does not but it removes the possibility of you knowing in advance of his decision. So can not be all knowing

Skommando wrote: »

Whichever one he wants, that's his choice. I know the house will turn out pink if he chooses pink, and blue if he chooses blue. Please explain that be me knowing that, how it removes his free will ?

You've ignored the fact that God has future knowledge. It has to be blue.

What colour goes on the wall?

Skommando

Deleted User wrote: »

It does not but it removes the possibility of you knowing in advance of his decision. So can not be all knowing

You'll have to explain how knowing what choice someone will definitely make, removes their free will. Something you've consistently failed to do so, not matter how many times you've been asked.

Deleted User wrote: »

You've ignored the fact that God has future knowledge. It has to be blue.

What colour goes on the wall?

If the plan is he has free will, why does it have to be blue, you've consistently failed to explain that ?

Skommando

Skommando wrote: »

You'll have to explain how knowing what choice someone will definitely make, removes their free will. Something you've consistently failed to do so, not matter how many times you've been asked.

Not the result, the choice.If you put 2 cans in front of him but already know that, no matter what, he will pick blue (no matter what, you've seen the future)
Where is his choice?

Skommando wrote: »

If the plan is he has free will, why does it have to be blue, you've consistently failed to explain that ?

Then if he has free will and can make independent decisions, how can god know the future. It's not set and God's not all knowing

God knows the colour picked will be blue.

There are two cans pink and blue.
What colour goes on the wall?

Skommando

Deleted User wrote: »

God knows the colour picked will be blue.

There are two cans pink and blue.
What colour goes on the wall?

Deleted User wrote: »

Not the result, the choice.If you put 2 cans in front of him but already know that, no matter what, he will pick blue (no matter what, you've seen the future)
Where is his choice?

Then if he has free will and can make independent decisions, how can god know the future. It's not set and God's not all knowing

Again you'll have to explain and prove your claim, that just because I know the future, how I've removed my friends choice ?

robindch

Deleted User wrote: »

If God sees the future and knows it, can you change it?

I think that's what praying is supposed to do.

Skommando

Skommando wrote: »

Again you'll have to explain and prove your claim, that just because I know the future, how I've removed my friends choice ?

If you know the future and KNOW the resulting action, can your friend change tge outcome at all?

Skommando

Deleted User wrote: »

If you know the future and KNOW the resulting action, can your friend change tge outcome at all?

He chooses whatever he wants and that effects the outcome.
Again, you haven't explained why me having the ability to see the future and outcome, means my friend has no free choices ?

Skommando

Skommando wrote: »

I know what the future is going to be because my friend chose it.

Again, you haven't explained why me having the ability to see the future, means no free will for anyone ?

No you do not know the future.
You know what your friend plans to do.

This is a simple question, if you can see the future (not a conversation with your friend but actually travel to the future, see the painted wall and return) and know that the wall is blue, and thebreturn to see your friend looking at two colours of paint.

What colour goes on the wall (you have no conversation with him)?

tommy2bad

Deleted User wrote: »

No you do not know the future.
You know what your friend plans to do.

This is a simple question, if you can see the future (not a conversation with your friend but actually travel to the future, see the painted wall and return) and know that the wall is blue, and thebreturn to see your friend looking at two colours of paint.

What colour goes on the wall (you have no conversation with him)?

You are confusing knowing and causing. Knowing something does not cause it. I may know something without having any act or part in it. I know what happened in 1916. Did that remove the free will of any of the participants?
If however, they knew what would happen, then that would affect their choices.
Would that negate their free will or enhance it? Would better informed actually lead to better choices?

tommy2bad

tommy2bad wrote: »

You are confusing knowing and causing. Knowing something does not cause it. I may know something without having any act or part in it. I know what happened in 1916. Did that remove the free will of any of the participants?
If however, they knew what would happen, then that would affect their choices.
Would that negate their free will or enhance it? Would better informed actually lead to better choices?

Cause and effect is not applicable to past actions.

And the question is
Does God know what you are going to decide tomorrow?

If he does and you can not make any other decision, then there is no free will there.
If he does not know what you will decide then he can not be all knowing

lazybones32

Deleted User wrote: »

Cause and effect is not applicable to past actions.

And the question is
Does God know what you are going to decide tomorrow?

If he does and you can not make any other decision, then there is no free will there.
If he does not know what you will decide then he can not be all knowing

God knows how you will act because He knows every single influencing factor that will be present at that moment and every thought process you will use to reach your decision. He knows you better than you do.

Knowing a person so thoroughly and completely, that you can say with 100% certainty how they will act or react to any given circumstance doesn't mean the person who acts/reacts was coerced or didn't have free will. It just means that the one who knows, knows.

Skommando

Deleted User wrote: »

No you do not know the future.
You know what your friend plans to do.

This is a simple question, if you can see the future (not a conversation with your friend but actually travel to the future, see the painted wall and return) and know that the wall is blue, and thebreturn to see your friend looking at two colours of paint.

What colour goes on the wall (you have no conversation with him)?

Whatever colour he chooses, the day he chooses it, is the colour that is going to be on the wall.

Just because I happen to know the future and what colour he choses (via the use of a time machine or whatever), and therefore I know what he is going to choose when I travel back to the present, does not mean he has no choice. Please explain why it does? you have repeatedly failed to answer this question, no matter how many times you have been asked, never mind prove your claim.

Professor Moriarty

Does one have to believe in 'God' to take part in this discussion?

Skommando

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Does one have to believe in 'God' to take part in this discussion?

Not at all. The main argumentum ad nauseum, while repeatedly failing to state why, seems to be that if someone knows what someone else will do in the future, it removes all their free will.

Professor Moriarty

Skommando wrote: »

Not at all. The main argument ad nauseum, and without stating why, seems to be that if someone knows what someone else will do in the future, it removes all their free will.

Thanks. Assuming no higher being exists, then all one can ever control and know with certainty is one's own thoughts and one's own intentions.

Unless one believes oneself to be telepathic, in which case one is off one's game.

Absolam

I think assuming no higher being exists probably steps outside the bounds of the question " Free Will or God's Plan" though, and simply leaves us with "Free Will", and no question.... whether or not one believes oneself to be telepathic.

Peregrinus

tritriagain wrote: »

I doubt if even an all knowing god knows what youre talking about

Seems a bit harsh.

If you genuinely think that the OP raises a conundrum, then any attempt to explore the conundrum is going to involve a certain amount of boggling the mind; that's how conundrums work.

In fact the OP does raise a conundrum. and it's not an exclusively, or even particularly, religious conundrum. The nature of time is one of the challenges that modern physics has to deal with. We experience time as a one-way constant progression, with the past irrecoverable and the future unknowable and unformed and only the present being truly real, but a lot of physicists - starting with Einstein, A - have argued that that's an illusion born of our limited perspective. What those physicists suggest is entirely consistent with the theological notion that to an omnisicient being all things, all events, would be immediately present and there would be no past/present/future distinction. In fact the implication of their argument is that, if the nature of time is as they suggest, a being capable of observing our universe fully not only could but must know the outcome of all future events.

If this boggles your mind that's entirely understandable - it certainly boggles mine - but that's no argument for saying that it's untrue or incorrect, or for dismissing it. Reality is not confined to what you or I find easy to grasp the first time we read it.

Nick Park

Deleted User wrote: »

Cause and effect is not applicable to past actions.

Of course cause and effect is applicable to past actions. I know that Theo Walcott scored on Saturday. That knowledge is the effect. The cause of the effect was Theo scoring the goal.

The question is how cause and effect relate to future actions.

Think of it this way. As things stand, we probably agree that Theo had the free will whether or not he kicked that ball on Saturday.

Now, imagine that I were to travel back in time in a time machine to 3 o'oclock last Saturday. I listen to the match on the radio. I know that Theo is going to score, but my knowledge is still the effect and his actions are still the cause. My knowledge cannot cause Theo to act any differently, since I am hundreds of miles away from the Emirates Stadium and have had no communication of any sort with Theo. So you cannot claim that my knowledge has interfered with his freedom in any way.

lazybones32

lazybones32 wrote: »

God knows how you will act because He knows every single influencing factor that will be present at that moment and every thought process you will use to reach your decision. He knows you better than you do.

Knowing a person so thoroughly and completely, that you can say with 100% certainty how they will act or react to any given circumstance doesn't mean the person who acts/reacts was coerced or didn't have free will. It just means that the one who knows, knows.

He knows exact lay what I'm going to do, no matter what?

Then my choice is an illusion as the path is already laid out

Nick Park

Nick Park wrote: »

Of course cause and effect is applicable to past actions. I know that Theo Walcott scored on Saturday. That knowledge is the effect. The cause of the effect was Theo scoring the goal.

The question is how cause and effect relate to future actions.

Think of it this way. As things stand, we probably agree that Theo had the free will whether or not he kicked that ball on Saturday.

Now, imagine that I were to travel back in time in a time machine to 3 o'oclock last Saturday. I listen to the match on the radio. I know that Theo is going to score, but my knowledge is still the effect and his actions are still the cause. My knowledge cannot cause Theo to act any differently, since I am hundreds of miles away from the Emirates Stadium and have had no communication of any sort with Theo. So you cannot claim that my knowledge has interfered with his freedom in any way.

No, because by going back you are interfering with local decisions, had you gone to the team hotel etc, you could have changed things.

Also it's an all knowing God which is topic.

Using your example
3 o clock last Sat Theo lines up his shot.
He can shoot left or right.

Gid knows he will shoot to the right and score, it's in his plan.
What happens with Theo's shot?

uck51js9zml2yt

[Deleted User] wrote: »

He knows exact lay what I'm going to do, no matter what?

Then my choice is an illusion as the path is already laid out

I know my wife is going to cook dinner tonight. How does that stop her having freewill?

Absolam

Deleted User wrote: »

He knows exact lay what I'm going to do, no matter what? Then my choice is an illusion as the path is already laid out

How do you know that? How exactly does his knowing what you're going to do affect what you're going to do?

Absolam

Deleted User wrote: »

No, because by going back you are interfering with local decisions, had you gone to the team hotel etc, you could have changed things.

If he had changed things, then they would have been as he remembered them though, wouldn't they? That's a time travel paradox; nothing to do with free will or God's plan.

Deleted User wrote: »

Also it's an all knowing God which is topic.
Using your example
3 o clock last Sat Theo lines up his shot.
He can shoot left or right.
Gid knows he will shoot to the right and score, it's in his plan.
What happens with Theo's shot?

He'll take the shot as God knows he will. Won't he? And if he shoots left, God will know (and always will have known) that he would shoot left. Just as if he had shot right.

Peregrinus

Deleted User wrote: »

No, because by going back you are interfering with local decisions, had you gone to the team hotel etc, you could have changed things.

Also it's an all knowing God which is topic.

Indeed. But, in our hypothetical Nick didn't go to the team hotel, etc, so the outcome of the game was determined by the choices the players made, just as it would have been if Nick had not gone back in time at all.

So, can we postulate an all-knowing God who doesn't go to the team hotel, so to speak? Clearly, we can. We can postulate a God who knows what the outcome of your free choice will be, but who does not act so as to eliminate your freedom in order to secure a different outcome. He doesn't know the outcome because he is extremely good at predicting things, or because he knows you so intimately that he can predict your every choice (though both of these things may be true). He knows the outcome of your choice for the simpler reason that, from his perspective, it is already happening, and has already happened. He doesn't predict the outcome at all; he simply observes it.

Franklin Enough Nectar

Franklin Enough Nectar wrote: »

I know my wife is going to cook dinner tonight. How does that stop her having freewill?

And if she changes her mind and exercises free will then you did not know.

God's plan means that your wife is cooking dinner, so he knows that she is cooking dinner.

Your wife has a decision to cook or not
What happens?