Trading/Begging on the DART

suicide_circus

Has anyone else come across this?

People on the dart walking through the carriage and leaving down packets of tissues or car air fresheners on the seat beside everyone and then turning back and collecting them again hoping that some passengers have picked them up so they can ask them for €2. Have seen this twice on off peak services between pearse and dun laoghaire.

It's not strictly begging as you are getting "goods" for your money and they aren't agressive but it is a bit irritating and some people might feel intimidated.

Thoughts?

Haithabu

suicide_circus wrote: »

Has anyone else come across this?

People on the dart walking through the carriage and leaving down packets of tissues or car air fresheners on the seat beside everyone and then turning back and collecting them again hoping that some passengers have picked them up so they can ask them for €2. Have seen this twice on off peak services between pearse and dun laoghaire.

It's not strictly begging as you are getting "goods" for your money and they aren't agressive but it is a bit irritating and some people might feel intimidated.

Thoughts?

I have not come across any free seats on the LUAS the last few times I used it.

But you still have a choice to decline if you are asked for €2. Or you could offer 2 Cents just to see how they react. Or try to trade for something like a pen or a paperclip.

Atlantic Dawn

These are from a certain ethnic minority, over here for the Christmas season, have spotted them at traffic lights handing drivers pens with notes attached looking for money.

suicide_circus

I'm not overly bothered by them as I say they're not agro and only trying to make a few shillings I guess. Wonder what the by-laws say about it though.

GM228

suicide_circus wrote: »

I'm not overly bothered by them as I say they're not agro and only trying to make a few shillings I guess. Wonder what the by-laws say about it though.

Here you go.

23(3) No person shall—

( a ) sell or expose or offer for sale or cause or permit to be sold or exposed or offered for sale any article or goods whatsoever; or

( b ) tout, ply for, or solicit or cause or permit touting or plying for or soliciting alms, reward or custom or employment of any description.

devnull

Generally it doesn't happen that much here in comparison to other countries though.

On trams/metro/trains in other countries it's pretty frequent some will get on doing the above or playing a musical instrument loudly, changing carriages at each stop

NeonSquares

Happened last Thur on the dart, pack of tissues with a typed note in bad english along the line of 2 brothers and him not working attached.

Didn't even entertain it as I was coming home from work(not the best time to be peddling these things to people in my opinion if they're looking for sympathy ).

This was after I'd gotten off the train at heuston station only to be met by a lad at the exit asking for money for a ticket to limerick.

On a day of commuting on the train, luas, dart and then bus to get home, only the luas and bus was where there was no soliciting.

And I only probably got lucky with the luas.

Grolschevik

Came across this recently on northside services, both Dart and commuter. The second time I experienced it, the driver became aware of it, stopped the train at a station with a siding (?) and either had them removed or got them to stop by threatening removal. Didn't witness the last bit.

Hilly Bill

They are the aggressive ones. They keep getting arrested and let out and do the same every day.

Kh1993

I was commuting for last 3 weeks from blackrock to the northside. I counted the same fella (about 18, "tanned") 8 times doing this, getting on at booterstown and getting off by tara.

Wearing top of the range runners, SnapBack caps, latest tracksuits, new gear every day. Confronted people when they said no, very uncomfortable. Tweeted Irish rail regularly, they couldn't give two sh*ts. The usual "we'll inform security" rubbish. Maybe if stations were staffed and ticket machines actually on and not open, they wouldn't have free roaming. Cos I do wonder if these people have tickets.

Hilly Bill

It's only going to get worse.

XPS_Zero

There's no way they've tickets they'd loose anything they'd make on cost of a daily unlimited ticket which is what they'd have to get

You know I only actually glanced at the bit of paper the other day, seeing a slip of paper I figured it was bible thumpers as it's their MO those vague sayings they pluck out of holy books to fit whatever hate filled dogma they believe in.
The one I read was about being out of work. Well it's simple, if you're unemployed go to jobseekers , if you don't qualify for that return home to your own Countries system.

This should get you banned from public transport after a repeat offence. Caught the first time should earn you a few days in a prison cell.

We have a social welfare system and network of good charities like SVP for those who really need help. But DSP has rules like you can't just come from China or Romania and sign up for a weekly cheque. If that's the story it was their decision to come, we already spend nearly half our budget on welfare we're hardly an uncaring nation.

This is scamming. Aggressive begging is specifically provided for in the public order act and should be enforced
One of many reasons we need a transit police

foggy_lad

Transport police will be useless against these people as they will be gone long before any of a very limited number of officers get to the train they are on! Ireland does not have a big enough or dense enough coverage of stations or lines for a transport police force to be effective.

dublinstevie

Scum

XPS_Zero

foggy_lad wrote: »

Transport police will be useless against these people as they will be gone long before any of a very limited number of officers get to the train they are on! Ireland does not have a big enough or dense enough coverage of stations or lines for a transport police force to be effective.

It doesnt have to be a fare-funded TransitPolice like the UK
We can simply have a transport police division of Garda just like we have a traffic division, perhaps separately trained with more limited powers.

Their mere presence would be a deterrent, I saw similar being arrested on the tube in the UK in London, now they were going person to person with a basket but it wasn't far beyond this, all that needs to happen is the police happen to board a train while they are doing this. This Irish attitude of "sure it won't work flawlessly 100% of the time so lets not even try" bugs the hell out of me.

If not for this we need those Transit Police for the Luas Red Line, and with two Metro lines and a 3-4 expansions to the Luas planned we need to be thinking about this now.

foggy_lad

XPS_Zero wrote: »

It doesnt have to be a fare-funded TransitPolice like the UK
We can simply have a transport police division of Garda just like we have a traffic division, perhaps separately trained with more limited powers.

Their mere presence would be a deterrent, I saw similar being arrested on the tube in the UK in London, now they were going person to person with a basket but it wasn't far beyond this, all that needs to happen is the police happen to board a train while they are doing this. This Irish attitude of "sure it won't work flawlessly 100% of the time so lets not even try" bugs the hell out of me.

If not for this we need those Transit Police for the Luas Red Line, and with two Metro lines and a 3-4 expansions to the Luas planned we need to be thinking about this now.

One word that you seem to be ignoring is "Funding". All these divisions will require their own vehicles and officers which we don't have!

There are not enough Gardai covering far more essential duties than guarding pretty rural train stations, not to talk of how they might police all the bus networks and taxi ranks.

prinzeugen

XPS_Zero wrote: »

It doesnt have to be a fare-funded TransitPolice like the UK
We can simply have a transport police division of Garda just like we have a traffic division, perhaps separately trained with more limited powers.

Their mere presence would be a deterrent, I saw similar being arrested on the tube in the UK in London, now they were going person to person with a basket but it wasn't far beyond this, all that needs to happen is the police happen to board a train while they are doing this. This Irish attitude of "sure it won't work flawlessly 100% of the time so lets not even try" bugs the hell out of me.

If not for this we need those Transit Police for the Luas Red Line, and with two Metro lines and a 3-4 expansions to the Luas planned we need to be thinking about this now.

Its transport police not transit and a separate Garda section would be useless.

The Scottish Government are trying to get the Scottish section of the British Transport Police amalgamated with Police Scotland.

Everyone is against it and strikes are threatened. Any transport police in Ireland would ideally be a branch of the airport/port police.

dublinman1990

I saw this happen with a woman while travelling on the DART one afternoon last week from Bray to Seapoint.

I didn't even try to look at her note. I just completely ignored her & she said thank you very much or something like that while taking her pack of tissues off the seats. IE should be doing something to stop this for good by having a transport police in the Gardai but we don't have the resources for doing this now because of cutbacks in the force that is going to last for a fair while.

I will never give something to them anyway. Sadly; they are not worth wasting my time.

suicide_circus

Transport police? Are yiz mad? Any spare money needs to go directly to the drivers

XPS_Zero

foggy_lad wrote: »

One word that you seem to be ignoring is "Funding". All these divisions will require their own vehicles and officers which we don't have!

There are not enough Gardai covering far more essential duties than guarding pretty rural train stations, not to talk of how they might police all the bus networks and taxi ranks.

Er yeh...every new service requires funding, amazingly I am aware of that having helped make plans like this for the best part of 10 years

Of course we don't have the vechiles and staff...we haven't set it up yet......

•When we decided to set up an air support unit we had no planes or helicopters
•When we decided to set up CAB we had no infrastructure for them
•When we decided to set up the ERU we had no assault rifles or high speed vechiles or sniper rifles or attack dogs because before something's set up, amazingly, ITS NOT SET UP!

"We don't have the stuff yet" is not reason to not set something up that's fundamentally illogical thinking

The funding a matter of making a good argument to the finance minister that your needs are more important than xyz thing other ministers are asking for, it can be done.

Nobody said rural train stations or bus stops you are using a lazy straw man argument. The DART and LUAS are the areas that need such a force.


Having an attitude of "let's not bother because it will be hard to organise" never solved a single problem.

Any time anyone comes up with a new idea in this country you have a load of moaners ready to talk about what can't be done instead of trying to find ways it can. They used to tell us no Underground could be done in Dublin the excuses shifted from "we don't have the population" to "there's a river in Dublin"...really that was their reason they'd apparently never heard of the Hudson or Thames

prinzeugen wrote: »

Its transport police not transit and a separate Garda section would be useless.

The Scottish Government are trying to get the Scottish section of the British Transport Police amalgamated with Police Scotland.

Everyone is against it and strikes are threatened. Any transport police in Ireland would ideally be a branch of the airport/port police.

It's not anything we can call it whatever we want.
I don't care what model we use it would make sense to do it that way, which brings up an interesting point, if we have Airport and port police there's no reason we can't have a similar force for the DART and Luas or one merged force

Oliver Beetroot

I use both DART and LUAS regularly, mostly at peak times though occasionally just after / before, so thankfully I haven't been exposed to this phenomenon. Reminds me of the toilet attendants phenomenon that seems to have mostly died out. now, thankfully.

XPS_Zero

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I saw this happen with a woman while travelling on the DART one afternoon last week from Bray to Seapoint.

I didn't even try to look at her note. I just completely ignored her & she said thank you very much or something like that while taking her pack of tissues off the seats. IE should be doing something to stop this for good by having a transport police in the Gardai but we don't have the resources for doing this now because of cutbacks in the force that is going to last for a fair while.

I will never give something to them anyway. Sadly; they are not worth wasting my time.

We do have the resources it's just going on tax cuts and 5ers to welfare payments and pay for paper pushers in the civil service who are shockingly inefficient and slow rather than to front line services, that's a CHOICE that was made, it's not inevitable that it has to be that way.

foggy_lad

Money spent on any transport Garda service would be far better spent on improving the overall services of Irish Rail and Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus.

Talking about setting up a police service that is not required and would never be efficient due to the demographics of our transport networks while two of the largest service providers in the state are on the boned of their backsides is typically Irish!

Other countries have it so we must have it too! but do you want to pay an extra 15-20% on your ticket prices to pay for a fractured disjointed transport police that has the same restrictions as the Gardai where the revolving door courts system is concerned?

goingnowhere

If Luas and Irish Rail stopped paying for private security and instead paid the Minister for Justice, then you have the funding issue solved.

The troublemakers well know the private security are there just for show and have no real legal status.

Irish Rail has started to have a garda presence at major ticket checks to deal with uncooperative people.

People want to feel safe, otherwise they will drive. So security is an essential part of the transport service

Glencarraig

Just tell them to F**K off

Del2005

goingnowhere wrote: »

If Luas and Irish Rail stopped paying for private security and instead paid the Minister for Justice, then you have the funding issue solved.

The troublemakers well know the private security are there just for show and have no real legal status.

Irish Rail has started to have a garda presence at major ticket checks to deal with uncooperative people.

People want to feel safe, otherwise they will drive. So security is an essential part of the transport service

The Gardaí won't respond to incidents on public transport because they know it's a waste of their time* so in order to have some sort of deterrent the company had to hire private security which appears to have solved a lot of the problems on the red line, after they solved the issues on the Dart.

You can throw as many Gardaí or private security people at our problems but the problem is that the justice system in this country doesn't work. Until the incestuous justice gravy train is reformed we'll continue to have anti social issues.

* 2 or more Gardaí turn up to an incident and arrest the person, transport back to station spending several hours checking them in and paper work, they are either then released without charge or if a summons is issued they get a slap on the wrist. Next day/week the Gardaí are back dealing with the same people doing the same thing.

n97 mini

foggy_lad wrote: »

One word that you seem to be ignoring is "Funding".

There could have been some negotiations around the €40 million extra in garda pay that was just announced. But it's the classic Irish govt style to just give more money and not look for anything in return.

Stephen15

I've noticed this on the continent particularly in Italy where people would come on the trains and put a notice on the seat saying that theye are a refugee from Bosnia and they were in a direct provision centre despite the fact they were usually Romas.

Also there are fellas getting on with shooping bags selling bottled water, crisps, pre packed sambos, minerals and sometimes even counterfeit cigarettes despite this they seem to usually very friendly with guards and ticket inspectoral funny that they have such a relaxed attitude to casual trading.

I don't see why this kinda thing warrants spending a load of money on transport. We don't have huge stations in Ireland like Roma Termini, Gare du Nord, Berlin Hauptbahnhof or Waterloother or thankfully a high risk of terrorism.

Del.Monte

A dedicated transport police (part of the Gardai) is badly needed in the Greater Dublin area. I can't understand the reluctance to deal with this policing issue and if the Red Luas line or the DART ran through Enda's constituency things would be different. When the cross-city Luas line opens ......

Hilly Bill

Glencarraig wrote: »

Just tell them to F**K off

That's actually the one way to stop them, if nobody buys then they won't bother doing it.

XPS_Zero

I saw this getting worse and worse over the last few months. The stories on the cards keep changing. I've been told it's actually a criminal gang who use these chumps to collect the cash pay them pittance out of it and pocket the rest.

So I hope they're going after the ring leaders and big fish with this, that said I felt satisfied to see what happened today. I had heard a few days ago there were arrests about this and sighed as I saw one of them putting the tissues on the seats again. I've resisted the temptation to get up and hurl him head first onto the platform several times. It's very frustrating to see people falling for it too, Irish are very naturally helpful and generous but that also makes us easy marks, maybe it's why we elect so many crooks. I've seen them pressure people who touch the tissues including a second one appearing once and getting very aggressive.

Anyway this guy went on to the next carriage and we stopped at Dun Laoghaire, out comes an army of security and IE staff about 7 of them, they took him off the train and away. I wonder if they are charging these guys, aggressive begging is illegal under the public order act.

GM228

https://www.thejournal.ie/dart-scammer-tissue-paper-3357182-Apr2017/%3Famp%3D1

prinzeugen

XPS_Zero wrote: »

It's not anything we can call it whatever we want.
I don't care what model we use it would make sense to do it that way, which brings up an interesting point, if we have Airport and port police there's no reason we can't have a similar force for the DART and Luas or one merged force

Sorry if I upset you by mentioning British..:rolleyes:

Polar101

I saw this on the Maynooth train last week, the woman said something and left a note plus a tissue pack from Lidl on every seat - and came back to collect her winnings two minutes later. Didn't read the note, but I assume they wanted €2 for some tragedy.

Hollister11

Happened again on Wednesday to me. There very annoying. The chap kept saying please sir, so I looked out the window ignored him, and he ****ed off.

Hilly Bill

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I saw this getting worse and worse over the last few months. The stories on the cards keep changing. I've been told it's actually a criminal gang who use these chumps to collect the cash pay them pittance out of it and pocket the rest.

So I hope they're going after the ring leaders and big fish with this, that said I felt satisfied to see what happened today. I had heard a few days ago there were arrests about this and sighed as I saw one of them putting the tissues on the seats again. I've resisted the temptation to get up and hurl him head first onto the platform several times. It's very frustrating to see people falling for it too, Irish are very naturally helpful and generous but that also makes us easy marks, maybe it's why we elect so many crooks. I've seen them pressure people who touch the tissues including a second one appearing once and getting very aggressive.

Anyway this guy went on to the next carriage and we stopped at Dun Laoghaire, out comes an army of security and IE staff about 7 of them, they took him off the train and away. I wonder if they are charging these guys, aggressive begging is illegal under the public order act.

They get taken away by the guards and then go back to do the same thing again after getting released.

Pkiernan

I just sit on the tissues.

Atlantic Dawn

They just need full on agression (non physical) in no uncertain terms told to clear the feck off.

Purple Mountain

If people took out their mobile phone in front of them and informed them they were phoning the Gardai, would that put the frighteners on them?

Captain Chaos

Purple Mountain wrote: »

If people took out their mobile phone in front of them and informed them they were phoning the Gardai, would that put the frighteners on them?

No none. They know the gards can't be bothered and are not a deterrent in any way.

I've said it before we need dedicated transport police in this country with full garda powers. No point in G4S or Brinks style security as they have no real powers.

XPS_Zero

Captain Chaos wrote: »

No none. They know the gards can't be bothered and are not a deterrent in any way.

I've said it before we need dedicated transport police in this country with full garda powers. No point in G4S or Brinks style security as they have no real powers.

Securitys only power is to:

1. Detain you until Guards arrive
2. Throw you out if you're tresspassing

I'm sure they know that.

We live in a country where you can clock up 87 convictions (as in one recent case), including repeated violent crimes, and still get suspended sentences, we don't seem to have a habitual offenders law. So I suppose that means this is too small scale for them.

Theres a law on "demanding money with menace", but they'd have to prove menace and if it's subtle.

If the state is not willing to stop them there is only one thing that will make them go away: the public stops giving them money. They should do an ad campaign on the trains telling people to not feed the beast, it's those gullible people that keep them coming back.

Purple Mountain

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Captain Chaos wrote: »

No none. They know the gards can't be bothered and are not a deterrent in any way.

I've said it before we need dedicated transport police in this country with full garda powers. No point in G4S or Brinks style security as they have no real powers.

Securitys only power is to:

1. Detain you until Guards arrive
2. Throw you out if you're tresspassing

I'm sure they know that.

We live in a country where you can clock up 87 convictions (as in one recent case), including repeated violent crimes, and still get suspended sentences, we don't seem to have a habitual offenders law. So I suppose that means this is too small scale for them.

Theres a law on "demanding money with menace", but they'd have to prove menace and if it's subtle.

If the state is not willing to stop them there is only one thing that will make them go away: the public stops giving them money. They should do an ad campaign on the trains telling people to not feed the beast, it's those gullible people that keep them coming back.

But then we'd possibly be accused of racism or incitement to hatred!

XPS_Zero

Purple Mountain wrote: »

But then we'd possibly be accused of racism or incitement to hatred!

We should have had a labour limit for a while (as was our option) when the eastern block joined the union, nearly everyone else was smart enough to have one. Knowing full well free trade and movement is fine for two equally developed countries like Ireland and France but when comparing western europe with Poland they knew we'd get a flood of people.

We didn't care at the time, once again thinking short term, we wanted builders for our boom, forgetting a lot of timewasters would come over as well. They were way too anxious to shove the eastern block in befpore they were developed enough , which is why they're seriously talking of suspending the votes of likes of Hungry now because they realize "oops! WE LET A POLICE STATE INTO THE UNION!" ...well done lads.

Let them say it, bring in a law that says organized begging gets you 30 days in solitary, lets see how much they enjoy spending 24 hours in a room with one toilet getting meals through a slot in the door. Low cost, high impact. It's not small scale, they are funding organized crime they only get a pittance out of it, they should make deals with them to let them off if they give up the guys running it, they put no effort into this stuff.

We badly need a TransitPolice

Purple Mountain

^ Does such policing work in other jurisdictions?

Stephen15

XPS_Zero wrote: »

We badly need a TransitPolice

No we dont. I couldnt think of a bigger waste of money. I travel on public transport regularly and have never had a problem these beggars and junkies on the Luas arent a big an issue as people seem to think. Its does not require the setting of an entire new police. Maybe an increase in garda patrol and more private security but a new police is not necessary.

XPS_Zero

Stephen15 wrote: »

No we dont. I couldnt think of a bigger waste of money. I travel on public transport regularly and have never had a problem these beggars and junkies on the Luas arent a big an issue as people seem to think. Its does not require the setting of an entire new police. Maybe an increase in garda patrol and more private security but a new police is not necessary.

Your personal anecdotal experience is not gonna give us the big picture

These kind of incidents are getting worse, attacks on public transport are rising and its a giant blackspot in Garda patrols because it crosses the jurisdictions of various stations. We need a dedicated force, we have an Airport Police and a Port Police there is no reason we can't have a Transit police, it would cost very little, the Guards as it is only cost about 1billion and that's to cover the entire country, even a small force would do the job and there are many ways of funding it.

Private security are powerless they can't prosecute, can't arrest (only detain), and they don't have the same use of force latitude police have

Atlantic Dawn

We need security staff with batons and body cams to take to task anyone acting untoward so to speak.

slits

Was on the last Sligo train on Monday evening and this fairly obviously intoxicated chap got on (not your regular tissue seller mind you) and loudly asked the staff member closing up the trolley if he "had goht any vodka?" Multiple times. Walked a couple feet (without his vodka because the trolley was closed/finished) and started begging a passenger for one fifty for a can of coke "cause me blud sugars are low an' I'll pass ou' an have a fit if me blud sugars don't go up"
Shockingly no success with several passengers, did this cruel people want to see this man pass out and have a fit? One brave commendable soul gave this man his one fifty annnd he kept begging.
I'm shocked he would lie like that decent looking fellow like him in his lovely (track)suit.

suicide_circus

Saw one of these being chased off a dart at blackrock and cornered on the platform by a couple of high vis vests

JayRoc

If no one was foolish enough to buy the tissues there wouldn't be a problem.

Same with any other Roma scams...the fault is almost entirely with those who give them money.

Sam Russell

JayRoc wrote: »

If no one was foolish enough to buy the tissues there wouldn't be a problem.

Same with any other Roma scams...the fault is almost entirely with those who give them money.

I saw an elderly woman paying out for the tissues. She had clearly been intimidated, or at least put under pressure. Not everyone wants to get involved.

More Revenue protection would help rid the Dart of this menace.