Nightmare lodger stealing

Lodgerfromhell

Hello I need some help please.

I'm renting a house where originally it was two friends, my girlfriend and myself. My two friends had to leave, one to find work the other to travel. The landlord said we could rent out the rooms, she doesn't live in Ireland but if anything goes wrong in the house we just email her and we fix/replace the item and send her the receipt and taking it off the rent. Works fine for all involved.(her idea)

It's a four bed house with currently my girlfriend and I and three housemates. Two of them are perfect then there is the nightmare. They all signed licensee agreements, with rent collected monthly and one months notice for us to give or receive. It says no smoking in the house, pay bills within 7 days notice, guests over 2 nights a week and no noise after 11.

Originally he was working and seemed nice, food started going missing and he denied it was him and blamed the newest guy who moved in. Then he started smoking in his room and soon started having loud arguments over the phone at midnight and more food started going missing.

He no longer works, bills are a pain in the arse to get of him, he does pay rent on time though. We were going to have a group meeting but gave his notice that he's leaving on the 30th. Now his girlfriend is living there and there screaming at each other every night. My girlfriends medication has recently went missing, first one xanex, now a full blister (this is pretty dangerous in the wrong hands). The second time this was taking he was the only one in the house not that we thought it was the other two guys. I told him he has 48 hours to leave but he just started screaming and threatening to burn my car and house and said he won't leave until he wants.

What next, he's a licensee not a tenant. He's on drugs, so is his girlfriend and the rest of us get woken by them going to the toilet every 20min at night (seriously it's not an exaggeration)

mickdw

kick them out onto Street.

Lodgerfromhell

mickdw wrote: »

kick them out onto Street.

He won't go and how if I touch him he'll probably try sue my for assault.

CPTM

If he's on drugs could you call the gards and explain? Or maybe threaten him with the idea?

Lodgerfromhell

CPTM wrote: »

If he's on drugs could you call the gards and explain? Or maybe threaten him with the idea?

Already told him he just left the house and came back at two in the morning. He definitely smokes weed but I don't know what else he does or doesn't do so will they even do anything.

Also can he just be thrown out even though the licensee agreement says thirty days?

foggy_lad

Get yourself a new lock for the door and someone in the house will have to stay there at all times to watch when they leave! dole day would be the best! then change the locks and throw their stuff out into the garden in black bags! Before this all happens drop into the local Garda station and let them know the situation and that he has no right to remain there once you have told him to leave as he is not a tenant and neither is his girlfriend, the Gardai might be helpful but may just tell you to call them if there is problem with them leaving.

foggy_lad

Lodgerfromhell wrote: »

Already told him he just left the house and came back at two in the morning. He definitely smokes weed but I don't know what else he does or doesn't do so will they even do anything.

Also can he just be thrown out even though the licensee agreement says thirty days?

He can be thrown out(not physically) at any time! he and his girlfriend are your guests, they are not tenants and have none of the rights of a tenancy!

Lodgerfromhell

foggy_lad wrote: »

He can be thrown out(not physically) at any time! he and his girlfriend are your guests, they are not tenants and have none of the rights of a tenancy!

Do I give him the remainder of this month's rent and his deposit? Can I actually touch his stuff? I'm going into the gardai tomorrow. Thanks

daRobot

Don't do any of the above. He has legal rights in the house.

A hasty move here and you'll end up screwing yourself.

Lodgerfromhell

daRobot wrote: »

Don't do any of the above. He has legal rights in the house.

A hasty move here and you'll end up screwing yourself.

Going into my room and going through my stuff is creepy and then to actually steal. I have shared houses for 3 years and normally none of us lock doors.

screamer

Have you contacted your landlady? I think you need to. Get her to increase his rent to an unaffordable amount and boot him out.
BTW, you're very lucky you've never had to lock doors in rented accommodation.

RagsOBrien

He has agreed to leave on the 30th. I think forcibly removing his stuff onto the street might be illegal or I don't think you would be within rights to do that as you don't own the property. I don't think the Gardai will evict him as it's a civil matter.

Have you told the Landlord about this?

I'd bide your time and start locking your room until he moves out. Not a great situation but be careful as well- obviously you don't want to get assaulted. If he threatens assault again, then report it.

Lodgerfromhell

screamer wrote: »

Have you contacted your landlady? I think you need to. Get her to increase his rent to an unaffordable amount and boot him out.
BTW, you're very lucky you've never had to lock doors in rented accommodation.

She's in the UK. She said we can let out the rooms and I'm responsible for the rent. She has nothing to do with the licensees.

foggy_lad

daRobot wrote: »

Don't do any of the above. He has legal rights in the house.

A hasty move here and you'll end up screwing yourself.

He is NOT A TENANT, he has no real rights. If he wants a deposit returned he must go through the small claims court and has no recourse to the RTB

Lodgerfromhell wrote: »

She's in the UK. She said we can let out the rooms and I'm responsible for the rent. She has nothing to do with the licensees.

Proving that they are not tenants and have no more rights than an invited guest!

when they are both out of the house change the locks and pack their bags for them and under no circumstances allow them to re-enter the premises because it would be illegal to physically remove them.

If you call the Gardai tell them that these people are not tenants but licensees who have been stealing and have been told to leave.

Have you definitely told them to leave? because of their behaviour you are not required to give them notice beyond what is reasonable to give a guest who steals from you and takes drugs in your home!

Lodgerfromhell

Told him twice he would be kicked out for smoking in his room and being loud at night but today I said you've to be gone by 6 on Saturday.

He's gotten arrogant since his girlfriend arrived and when asked why his girlfriend is here since friday he says she'll be gone tomorrow that her house has plumbing problem. Thing is tomorrow never comes.

B.A._Baracus

Sorry to hear the situation man.
It's one of those awkward situations where you don't know what to do. You can't grab him and throw him out as you'll be done for assault (and probably bloody sued you know yourself) but at the same time you can't just bend over and take it.

I'm in the process of trying to move in with my girlfriend in a house share too. Reading your problems just makes me doubt and rethink the whole share bit.

foggy_lad

Lodgerfromhell wrote: »

Told him twice he would be kicked out for smoking in his room and being loud at night but today I said you've to be gone by 6 on Saturday.

He's gotten arrogant since his girlfriend arrived and when asked why his girlfriend is here since friday he says she'll be gone tomorrow that her house has plumbing problem. Thing is tomorrow never comes.

Change the locks and lock them out tomorrow if you can as he may kick off on Saturday.

Call the Gardai and tell them what is going on and tell them about the threats to burn your car and any other threats he made.

Lodgerfromhell

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Sorry to hear the situation man.
It's one of those awkward situations where you don't know what to do. You can't grab him and throw him out as you'll be done for assault (and probably bloody sued you know yourself) but at the same time you can't just bend over and take it.

I'm in the process of trying to move in with my girlfriend in a house share too. Reading your problems just makes me doubt and rethink the whole share bit.

I don't think you should be put off, you only hear the horror stories. Met some great people over the last couple of years, most of us go out or get takeaways and watch movies play PlayStation etc. But every so often there's an absolute p***K to ruin it all

Lodgerfromhell

Foggy_lad thanks for all your advice, I had thought he had limited rights but wasn't sure how fast I could get rid of him. Since it was on the lease to not smoke do I keep part of his deposit or just give it all back and hopefully never hear from him again

Wanderer78

get rid of these people straight away, tomorrow straight away! this will just keep escalating. some really good advice here already. best of luck

newacc2015

daRobot wrote: »

Don't do any of the above. He has legal rights in the house.

A hasty move here and you'll end up screwing yourself.

This is completely incorrect. He is not a tenant. He is a licensee and has zero rights under the law. The guy has no recourse for getting kicked unless OP doesnt give back his deposit and then he go to small claims court to get it back.

OP I would go to a locksmith tomorrow and get a new set of locks. They are easy to change yourself. I would put all his stuff and leave it on the kerb. IMO I dont think you trust him to leave civilly on Saturday. I dont think it is a risk you can take

FYI are you withholding 20% of your rent to give to Revenue as a withholding tax for your landlord being non-resident?

Lodgerfromhell

newacc2015 wrote: »

FYI are you withholding 20% of your rent to give to Revenue as a withholding tax for your landlord being non-resident?

No. She's Irish and it's lodged into her Irish aib account and the house was registered with ptrb. I thought everything was above board

Stheno

Lodgerfromhell wrote: »

No. She's Irish and it's lodged into her Irish aib account and the house was registered with ptrb. I thought everything was above board

Not if she is abroad you are required to withold tax

Kristopherus

Stheno wrote: »

Not if she is abroad you are required to withold tax

So tenants are now expected to be tax-gatherers as well. Do you honestly believe that tenants such as the OP are willing to do that?

athtrasna

Kristopherus wrote: »

So tenants are now expected to be tax-gatherers as well. Do you honestly believe that tenants such as the OP are willing to do that?

It is the law unless the landlord appoints an Irish based collection agent. The landlord is the one putting the responsibility on the tenant if they don't appoint an agent

jackofalltrades

So he's threatened to set fire to your car and the house you live in.
Yeah I'd be getting this lad out of the house immediately don't wait till the deadline, which he has no intention of honouring anyway.

road_high

Second everyone's else's advice here to pack his stuff, kick him out and change the locks. The only reason these s***bags get away with this crap is because they are allowed to under the umbrella of so-called "rights" (that he doesn't have). You've been more than reasonable with this thug.

newacc2015

Kristopherus wrote: »

So tenants are now expected to be tax-gatherers as well. Do you honestly believe that tenants such as the OP are willing to do that?

It is the law. It is not a case if OP is willing to do it, they have to it. It is not that difficult to do.

If OP doesnt want to do it, they can ask their landlord to get a designated agent for ensuring the rental is tax compliant.

weldoninhio

newacc2015 wrote: »

It is the law. It is not a case if OP is willing to do it, they have to it. It is not that difficult to do.

If OP doesnt want to do it, they can ask their landlord to get a designated agent for ensuring the rental is tax compliant.

The OP has been asked to collect and send the rent to the LL. He does that. It's not his place to ensure his LL is tax compliant. Legally the LL should be tax complaint, but there is no onus, legally or otherwise, on the OP to ensure this or even speak to the LL on this.

HS3

How did he tell you he was leaving? Was it verbally or have you anything in writing?

He's paying his rent so I would think everything else is rule breaking that's a matter of working out between you. If you can grin and bear it until the 30th and then he's gone. I would absolutely lock my bedroom door though. You may never have needed to before, but I would with this guy.

I would think the main thing is acknowledging in writing that he's given his notice and his licence terminates on the 30th December and making sure you don't accept any rent from him after that. Have you someone lined up to take the room?

Marcusm

Lodgerfromhell wrote: »

Foggy_lad thanks for all your advice, I had thought he had limited rights but wasn't sure how fast I could get rid of him. Since it was on the lease to not smoke do I keep part of his deposit or just give it all back and hopefully never hear from him again

How long has he been in the house? If he has been there more than 6 months as a licensee of a tenant then he is entitled to be treated as a tenant by the landlord with part 4 rights. These are rights against the landlord not you as head tenant. If I were you, I would focus on eviction on the grounds of anti social behaviour rather than asserting that he has no security of tenure.

KCross

weldoninhio wrote: »

The OP has been asked to collect and send the rent to the LL. He does that. It's not his place to ensure his LL is tax compliant. Legally the LL should be tax complaint, but there is no onus, legally or otherwise, on the OP to ensure this or even speak to the LL on this.

The tenant is not ensuring the LL is tax complaint. What they are obliged to do(its in law) is to withhold 20% of the rent which will be used against the LL's tax return. It is still the LL's responsibility to be tax complaint.

And it only applies when the LL is residing outside the state.

Its the revenues way of keeping non-resident LL's honest!

Paulw

weldoninhio wrote: »

The OP has been asked to collect and send the rent to the LL. He does that. It's not his place to ensure his LL is tax compliant. Legally the LL should be tax complaint, but there is no onus, legally or otherwise, on the OP to ensure this or even speak to the LL on this.

Maybe you should go read the law. The tenant is legally required to withhold the tax to be paid to Revenue if the LL is overseas.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it70.html#section21

Mod note:
That is all outside the issue that the OP has. Please stick to the topic from now on.

screamer

OP I'd be very careful about how you go about getting rid of him. I know it's not your house, but you live there, and a disgruntled ahole could well come back and break the windows/ damage your stuff etc. You don't need that sort of bad blood. It's a tough situation but I'd try and give him no reason to be disgruntled about it. I know your landlady doesn't want to know about it, but realistically, you need to have that neutral overall voice there somewhere that can call the shots on the tenants/ licencees etc, as otherwise, the next time you have a head the ball living in the house, it'll be the same problems.

Mrs OBumble

screamer wrote: »

OP I'd be very careful about how you go about getting rid of him. I know it's not your house, but you live there, and a disgruntled ahole could well come back and break the windows/ damage your stuff etc. You don't need that sort of bad blood. It's a tough situation but I'd try and give him no reason to be disgruntled about it. I know your landlady doesn't want to know about it, but realistically, you need to have that neutral overall voice there somewhere that can call the shots on the tenants/ licencees etc, as otherwise, the next time you have a head the ball living in the house, it'll be the same problems.

This plus lots.

Yes legally you can just toss him onto the street. But sometimes the law is an ass.

Exercise a few brain cells, and imagine what he's likely to do next. Either he will flip out and do something to hurt you immediately, or he'll focus on finding somewhere to put his stuff and then plan a more comprehensive revenge. The chance that he will go away quietly so you can live happily ever after is very, very small.

Focus on damage minimisation. Keep your room locked and leave minimal stuff for him to steal. Make the guards aware. Offer to give a good reference about him to places he's looking at - yes this means lying. Remember that he's not going to vanish into thin air: in order to move out he has to have somewhere to go.

road_high

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

This plus lots.

Yes legally you can just toss him onto the street. But sometimes the law is an ass.

Exercise a few brain cells, and imagine what he's likely to do next. Either he will flip out and do something to hurt you immediately, or he'll focus on finding somewhere to put his stuff and then plan a more comprehensive revenge. The chance that he will go away quietly so you can live happily ever after is very, very small.

Focus on damage minimisation. Keep your room locked and leave minimal stuff for him to steal. Make the guards aware. Offer to give a good reference about him to places he's looking at - yes this means lying. Remember that he's not going to vanish into thin air: in order to move out he has to have somewhere to go.

This is why we have the kind of society we have and thugs like this think they can get away with this outrageous behaviour and threats (not to mention the illegality of stealing) when we have nampy bampying like this encouraged (and rewarded). I wouldn't be pussy footing around this s***bag- I totally agree with contacting the Guards however.

NiallBoo

Lodgerfromhell wrote: »

threatening to burn my car and house)

Aside from anything else, you should pop down to the local garda station, tell them this and ask them to make an official record of it.

You don't have to get them to act on it just yet, but it could be very useful going forward to have a record.

NiallBoo

road_high wrote: »

This is why we have the kind of society we have and thugs like this think they can get away with this outrageous behaviour and threats (not to mention the illegality of stealing) when we have nampy bampying like this encouraged (and rewarded). I wouldn't be pussy footing around this scumbag- I totally agree with contacting the Guards however.

Not really, avoiding a head-on/aggressive conflict means that the problem guy doesn't have his normal ammunition and won't be able to make you act rashly.

If OP does that then they'll be playing the game on the other guy's terms, which he's probably better at.

road_high

NiallBoo wrote: »

Not really, avoiding a head-on/aggressive conflict means that the problem guy doesn't have his normal ammunition and won't be able to make you act rashly.

If OP does that then they'll be playing the game on the other guy's terms, which he's probably better at.

Not necessarily talking about a full fire-with-fire conflict but meeting him full-on by kicking him out of the house and thereby controlling the things you can control i.e. getting him out of there.

Lodgerfromhell

Well the gardai were a disaster. They insisted it was Civil matter despite I telling them it was trespass.

bucketybuck

I would say the chances of this guy actually leaving on the 30th are very slim, and you should make decisions with that in mind.

Marcusm

Lodgerfromhell wrote: »

Well the gardai were a disaster. They insisted it was Civil matter despite I telling them it was trespass.

If he's there more than 6 months then he is entitled to security of tenure just as you are. The anti social behaviour aspects might warrant an eviction but you will need to get the landlord's approval for that.

I fully support you getting rid of him but you'all need to do it lawfully.

Lodgerfromhell

Marcusm wrote: »

If he's there more than 6 months then he is entitled to security of tenure just as you are. The anti social behaviour aspects might warrant an eviction but you will need to get the landlord's approval for that.

I fully support you getting rid of him but you'all need to do it lawfully.

He's there since October 1

Mrs OBumble

road_high wrote: »

This is why we have the kind of society we have and thugs like this think they can get away with this outrageous behaviour and threats (not to mention the illegality of stealing) when we have nampy bampying like this encouraged (and rewarded). I wouldn't be pussy footing around this s***bag- I totally agree with contacting the Guards however.

First time I've ever been accused of being namby pamby! I usually get warnings for being too hard-ass.

I'm not proposing being soft, just managing the interaction to minimise the chances of the guy burning the place down after he's left.

As the OP has found, the guards are not going to do anything about a housemate stealing your food, drugs etc.

Best case the guy will move into his girlfriends place.

The OP probably needs to have an up front conversation about the conditions for giving the deposit back - maybe even to pay the guy to leave early. Yes it sucks- but it's what professional landlords do.

Moomat

Lodgerfromhell wrote: »

Well the gardai were a disaster. They insisted it was Civil matter despite I telling them it was trespass.

The guards weren't lying. Trespass can only be prosecuted when it is trespass with intent to commit a crime.

Marcusm

Lodgerfromhell wrote: »

He's there since October 1

He doesn't have security of tenure. As regards the Gardai, trespass is a civil matter until such times as he causes fear or commits criminal damage. If neither applies then it simply not a matter for them.

punisher5112

Moomat wrote: »

The guards weren't lying. Trespass can only be prosecuted when it is trespass with intent to commit a crime.

Only thing he is committing crimes of theft and threats.

Op you need to get that person out but have others there with you and call guards if needed especially outside the property if things go sour.

FAILSAFE 00

Have the locks changed. Let him know that he may pick up his things at a scheduled time.

Make sure you have friends with you there at this scheduled time.

You'll be happy once you have it behind you. Right now the lodger is testing you to see what he can getaway with.

Lodgerfromhell

Well he made it clear he is not moving and his girlfriend is staying and it's home bla bla bla.

Sure if I change the locks the gardai are going to let him back, pretty much what they said today.

dudara

Marcusm wrote: »

If he's there more than 6 months then he is entitled to security of tenure just as you are. The anti social behaviour aspects might warrant an eviction but you will need to get the landlord's approval for that.

I fully support you getting rid of him but you'all need to do it lawfully.

No he's not. He's a licensee. The rights that tenants acquire under Part IV do not apply here. In either case, he's only been there since October.

OP - do you really think he's going to move out on the 30tg, which is the middle of Christmas? I sincerely doubt it

the_syco

daRobot wrote: »

Don't do any of the above. He has legal rights in the house.

A hasty move here and you'll end up screwing yourself.

He has no legal rights at all.

Marcusm wrote: »

How long has he been in the house? If he has been there more than 6 months as a licensee of a tenant then he is entitled to be treated as a tenant by the landlord with part 4 rights. These are rights against the landlord not you as head tenant.

A licensee stays a licensee. They don't gain rights.

Marcusm wrote: »

If he's there more than 6 months then he is entitled to security of tenure just as you are.

Eh, no. Where are you getting this from?

Lodgerfromhell wrote: »

Well the gardai were a disaster. They insisted it was Civil matter despite I telling them it was trespass.

Consider moving out. Life is too short for this crap.

Aside from someone (not the OP, as that's against the forum rules) beating the crap out of the s***bag (and even then the OP has no guarantee that the s***bag won't carry out his threats), there's not much reason for the s***bag to leave.