Unusual new lease proposal

Whyner

Howdy,

Renting our property for 4 years and received a strange new lease proposal yesterday. Our current rent is 1675 and they didn’t raise it last year as a result of raising it the previous year

New proposal starting in January 2017:

First 3 months 1675
Middle 6 months 1837
Last 3 months 2000

That averages out at 1837 but rather than go with 1837 a month they appear to be locking us down for 2000 for 2018, did they think I wasn’t going to cop on to this?

Questions:

1. Am I right in assuming that their proposal is not allowed since they’re increasing it within 24 months?

2. If I did agree to it, what would be our rent for 2018, the average or the last paid month? It’s not something I’d gamble on without confirming with them first, just curious as it’s an unusual

Their proposal could work in our favour as we hope to leave in early 2018 but if we ended up staying, 2k would be a stinger

godtabh

that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen.

Ms Doubtfire1

I would agree with Godtabh. Ridicolous. Politely decline.

Mr. Incognito

That breaches the RTA.

One increase allowed every 24 months. They are seeking to increase 3 times in 12 months. Not allowed.

I'm guessing this is your typical gordon gecko moron estate agent that came up with this idea.

johnb25

Whyner wrote: »

Howdy,

Renting our property for 4 years and received a strange new lease proposal yesterday. Our current rent is 1675 and they didn’t raise it last year as a result of raising it the previous year

New proposal starting in January 2017:

First 3 months 1675
Middle 6 months 1837
Last 3 months 2000

That averages out at 1837 but rather than go with 1837 a month they appear to be locking us down for 2000 for 2018, did they think I wasn’t going to cop on to this?

Questions:

1. Am I right in assuming that their proposal is not allowed since they’re increasing it within 24 months?

2. If I did agree to it, what would be our rent for 2018, the average or the last paid month? It’s not something I’d gamble on without confirming with them first, just curious as it’s an unusual

Their proposal could work in our favour as we hope to leave in early 2018 but if we ended up staying, 2k would be a stinger

No experience of this, but could you accept, and then decline the €2k when it falls due, as you already had one increase in the two years.
Turn it back on the LL.

April 73

When did your first lease begin? The four years that you mentioned is very important as you be able to come out of your Part IV tenancy. This leaves you vunerable to being asked to vacate the premises.

Whyner

johnb25 wrote: »

No experience of this, but could you accept, and then decline the €2k when it falls due, as you already had one increase in the two years.
Turn it back on the LL.

No idea but I'm sure the 3 amounts would be listed in the new lease which I'd have to sign so not risking that

Whyner

April 73 wrote: »

When did your first lease begin? The four years that you mentioned is very important as you be able to come out of your Part IV tenancy. This leaves you vunerable to being asked to vacate the premises.

We signed a 6 month contract in June 2011 for 6 months and have signed new yearly contracts since then every January

Effects

I guess they don't want to raise it to 2000 in one go and are trying to help you out. It's not legal though so if you decline they will probably raise to 2000 from January.
With the 24 month period they have to allow for rental price increase in the future, now.

Whyner

Effects wrote: »

I guess they don't want to raise it to 2000 in one go and are trying to help you out. It's not legal though so if you decline they will probably raise to 2000 from January.
With the 24 month period they have to allow for rental price increase in the future, now.

Doubt it, they know we won't accept 2000

No 90 days notice either, just a phone call - Do they need to give 90 days as we'll be signing a new lease?

Michael D Not Higgins

Whyner wrote: »

Doubt it, they know we won't accept 2000

No 90 days notice either, just a phone call - Do they need to give 90 days as we'll be signing a new lease?

Just because it's part of a lease doesn't give them any method of subverting their legal obligations. They must give you 90 days written notice, with 3 comparable properties to show market rate.

whoopsadoodles

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Just because it's part of a lease doesn't give them any method of subverting their legal obligations. They must give you 90 days written notice, with 3 comparable properties to show market rate.

Since when did they have to include 3 comparable properties?

Atari Jaguar

whoopsadoodles wrote: »

Since when did they have to include 3 comparable properties?

Since they stopped allowing the rent to go up more often than every 2 years.

Michael D Not Higgins

whoopsadoodles wrote: »

Since when did they have to include 3 comparable properties?

It was included in the 2015 amendment that came into force about this time last year.

whoopsadoodles

Jesus, I missed that completely. I thought there just had to be comparable rent in the area. Didn't realise you had to include it in the notice.

pilly

The 'LL could genuinely be trying to do a favour there by doing it incremental. Of course all the 'LL haters would never consider that.

Whyner

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/rent_increases.html

Notice of rent review

The notice of new rent must comply with the provisions of Section 26 of the Residential Tenancies (Amendment) Act 2015. The notice must:

State the amount of new rent and the date from which is to have effect
Include a statement that any dispute about the setting of the rent must be referred to the RTB before the date the new rent takes effect, or within 28 days from the date that the tenant gets the notice, whichever is the later

Include a statement by the landlord that, in their opinion, the new rent is not greater than the market rent, having regard to the other terms of the tenancy and to letting values of dwellings of a similar size, type and character and situated in a comparable area

Specify the rent amount being asked for 3 dwellings of a similar size, type and character and in a comparable area, which have been advertised for rent in the 4-week period immediately before the notice

Be signed by the landlord or their authorised agent and include the date on which it was signed

Whyner

pilly wrote: »

The 'LL could genuinely be trying to do a favour there by doing it incremental. Of course all the 'LL haters would never consider that.

No chance

cruizer101

What's the going rate for properties in your area? Are you getting a good deal by them suggesting a lower rate earlier on in year? or is the 2000 reflective of average rates for similar properties.

I know these are kind of irrelevant in terms of he can't increase three times but be good for you to know when you go back to him to negotiate.

Claw Hammer

The sensible thing to do is sign it and them when they try and increase it from €1675 take a case to the RTB and complain about it. You will be on €1675 for years.

davo10

When was your last increase? If it was more than 24 months ago then they can increase by giving correct notice (90 days) The amount they can increase it by depends on the market rate for that area, if that is €2k or above and they have 3 examples of that, then your rent will be set at €2k plus, from the date the new rent rate begins. On that date you might wish you had accepted the incremental increases offered, I too think this is being offered to help you out op, if rates are €2k or higher, the LL could just as easily set it at that from day one (giving correct notice of course). You should get on daft and see what properties are renting for, then see if this is to your benefit or not.

Whyner

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The sensible thing to do is sign it and them when they try and increase it from €1675 take a case to the RTB and complain about it. You will be on €1675 for years.

or get turfed out

Claw Hammer

Whyner wrote: »

or get turfed out

How can he be turfed out?

davo10

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The sensible thing to do is sign it and them when they try and increase it from €1675 take a case to the RTB and complain about it. You will be on €1675 for years.

Yip, personally I would put up the rent to the €2k plus from day one, saves this type of thing happening. So what if the tenant has to pay two thousand more this year, best to have things right from the start.

emeldc

pilly wrote: »

The 'LL could genuinely be trying to do a favour there by doing it incremental. Of course all the 'LL haters would never consider that.

Whyner wrote: »

No chance

I have the same good tenant for three years. I did not increase the rent in that time and at the time of review was 30% lower than similar properties (€750/€525). The new rent was set at €700 but because they are good tenants I discounted the first 6 months to €600. Point me the legislation that says I can't do that.

davo10

emeldc wrote: »

I have the same good tenant for three years. I did not increase the rent in that time and at the time of review was 30% lower than similar properties (€750/€525). The new rent was set at €700 but because they are good tenants I discounted the first 6 months to €600. Point me the legislation that says I can't do that.

Nicely put, the lower rates are "discounts" rather than the higher rates being increases, in this case the €2k would be the rent for the next 2 years but the first nine months are discounted. I like your style.

Whyner

emeldc wrote: »

I have the same good tenant for three years. I did not increase the rent in that time and at the time of review was 30% lower than similar properties (€750/€525). The new rent was set at €700 but because they are good tenants I discounted the first 6 months to €600. Point me the legislation that says I can't do that.

Sure who'd even question that, you're sound. Anyway, don't think I said you did anything illegal

Our rent has been increased at every opportunity since 2011. The guy I deal with is ACTUALLY a property manager who works on behalf of the owners. They gave it to him after parting their ways with <mod snip>. They put him in charge last year and since then he

Tried to increase the rent when he wasn't allowed to - he wasn't aware of new rules
Has given me a stupid proposal

Told me has recently qualified to become a Property Manager.

Claw Hammer

emeldc wrote: »

I have the same good tenant for three years. I did not increase the rent in that time and at the time of review was 30% lower than similar properties (€750/€525). The new rent was set at €700 but because they are good tenants I discounted the first 6 months to €600. Point me the legislation that says I can't do that.

Residential Tenancies Act 2004 as amended.

davo10

Whyner wrote: »

Sure who'd even question that, you're sound. Anyway, don't think I said you did anything illegal

Our rent has been increased at every opportunity since 2011. The guy I deal with is ACTUALLY a property manager who works on behalf of the owners. They gave it to him after parting their ways with. They put him in charge last year and since then he

Tried to increase the rent when he wasn't allowed to - he wasn't aware of new rules
Has given me a stupid proposal

Told me has recently qualified to become a Property Manager.

A stupid proposal which saves you €2k of a discount in the first 9 months. Stupid indeed.

You should stand on your principals and ask to pay the full €2k per month from the start.

davo10

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Residential Tenancies Act 2004 as amended.

You are missing the point, emeldc's rate is €700 for the next 2 years, but a good tenant is receiving a discretionary discount of €600.

Michael D Not Higgins

davo10 wrote: »

You are missing the point, emeldc's rate is €700 for the next 2 years, but a good tenant is receiving a discretionary discount of €600.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I know this staged rent increase makes it more palatable for the tenants but the RTB may view it as two increases within 6 months then you're out 100/month for the 18 months you had planned to have it at 700.

I wouldn't dismiss an unfavourable ruling by the RTB in a case such as this particularly with their bias to tenant rights.

davo10

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I know this staged rent increase makes it more palatable for the tenants but the RTB may view it as two increases within 6 months then you're out 100/month for the 18 months you had planned to have it at 700.

I wouldn't dismiss an unfavourable ruling by the RTB in a case such as this particularly with their bias to tenant rights.

So you don't think the RTB will look unfavourably on a situation where a tenant was given a discount for a period on a rate set for 2 years at market rate? Crikey, shows how f**ked up the system is when people look with suspicion on something which benefits them.

Michael D Not Higgins

davo10 wrote: »

So you don't think the RTB will look favourably on a situation where a tenant was given a discount for a period on a rate set for 2 years at market rate? Crikey.

That's not the point, it's how the law is interpreted and applied. If they interpret the situation as two de facto increases, they could deem it an illegal rent increase and force the landlord to accept the lower level. I'm not saying it would happen, but if I were a landlord I'd rather not even take that risk.

emeldc

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I know this staged rent increase makes it more palatable for the tenants but the RTB may view it as two increases within 6 months then you're out 100/month for the 18 months you had planned to have it at 700.

I wouldn't dismiss an unfavourable ruling by the RTB in a case such as this particularly with their bias to tenant rights.

Point taken but the lease actually states that the rent is €700, signed, agreed and sealed. The way I see it if the tenants kick up after their discount period has finished then they'll owe me €600. I really doubt the RTB would get involved in 'side' agreement between myself and the tenant when there is a perfectly legal written agreement in place.

Michael D Not Higgins

emeldc wrote: »

Point taken but the lease actually states that the rent is €700, signed, agreed and sealed. The way I see it if the tenants kick up after their discount period has finished then they'll owe me €600. I really doubt the RTB would get involved in 'side' agreement between myself and the tenant when there is a perfectly legal written agreement in place.

Oral agreements are also part of the law and are specifically called up in the RTA. I'm not saying you would have this issue, and likely you have a grateful tenant who's not going to complain about a discount, but just that there's the risk of that happening. I, for one, am not going to advise anyone to take this particular course of action. It's much less risky to just do a single increase.

davo10

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

That's not the point, it's how the law is interpreted and applied. If they interpret the situation as two de facto increases, they could deem it an illegal rent increase and force the landlord to accept the lower level. I'm not saying it would happen, but if I were a landlord I'd rather not even take that risk.

It's posts like this which make landlords jack the rent up as high as they can from the start of the rent increase period. Why bother doing anything good for a tenant or being sympathetic to their financial situation when people think like this. If the rental increase notice says as emeldc's does that rent is X for two years but a discretionary discount will be given for a short period, that is unambiguous, the new rental rate is X = market rate.

In the op's case, if local rents are €2k per month, you would think that he/she would realise that an extra €2k in their bank account after 9 months is better than €2k less, maybe there is some stupidity involved.

Claw Hammer

davo10 wrote: »

It's posts like this which make landlords jack the rent up as high as they can from the start of the rent increase period. Why bother doing anything good for a tenant or being sympathetic to their financial situation when people think like this. If the rental increase notice says as emeldc's does that rent is X for two years but a discretionary discount will be given for a short period, that is unambiguous, the new rental rate is X = market rate.

In the op's case, if local rents are €2k per month, you would think that he/she would realise that an extra €2k in their bank account after 9 months is better than €2k less, maybe there is some stupidity involved.

A landlord can't review the rent more than once every two years. The RTB take an expansionary view of the word review. In every case it is against the landlord. It is not possible to contract out of the provisions of the RTA so a signed agreement means nothing. There is also the problem of market rent. If the landlord is willing to accept a lower figure that becomes the market rent.
Never give a sucker a break.

davo10

Claw Hammer wrote: »

A landlord can't review the rent more than once every two years. The RTB take an expansionary view of the word review. In every case it is against the landlord.
Never give a sucker a break.

Whether the timeframe for the increase is valid is another issue, the op hasn't confirmed if 24 months has elapsed since the last increase. If it hasn't, then any increase is invalid, if it has, then by your rationale the op would have to pay €2k from the start if that is the market rate set for the next 2 years. Of course the op then pays an extra €2k in the first 9 months, nice one.

spaceHopper

If your tenancy started in June 2011, then your first 4 year block of part 4 rights ended in June 2015 and you are about 18 months into your second, they is important. You have very strong rights. They can only ask you to leave for breaking your lease terms to sell up or for a immediate member of family to move in and you have to be given 16 weeks notices. So you don't have to sign a lease, but you do have to agree a rent.

The same goes for when you want to move out you have to give 16 weeks notice but that's hard to enforce.

I'd tell then you want to stay on part 4 terms. But you run the risk of them setting a 2000 rent now. However they can only charger the going rate for same type of house in the area.

Read up on part 4 rights on line first.

Claw Hammer

davo10 wrote: »

Whether the timeframe for the increase is valid is another issue, the op hasn't confirmed if 24 months has elapsed since the last increase. If it hasn't, then any increase is invalid, if it has, then by your rationale the op would have to pay €2k from the start if that is the market rate set for the next 2 years. Of course the op then pays an extra €2k in the first 9 months, nice one.

I am not talking about the last increase, I am talking about the next one.

April 73

OP says the rent wasn't raised last year as a result of raising it the year before. Sounds like the two year period is coming to an end & a review is due.
Regardless the correct notice needs to be given and three comparable properties quoted. If the average rent is €2000 then the LL is doing the tenant a favour. If the average rent is around €1800 that's a bad deal & shouldn't be agreed.

However if the rent had been €1675 for two years it's quite possible the average is now €2000.

Claw Hammer

davo10 wrote: »

The next one depends on when the last one was. The op hasn't posted when the last increase was, if it was less than 2 years ago then no increase is due now.

The notification the o/p got is not valid. When he contests it he will win. The attempted review will be deemed to be a review and it will be another 2 years and 3 months before the next one.

Whyner

davo10 wrote: »

When was your last increase? If it was more than 24 months ago then they can increase by giving correct notice (90 days) The amount they can increase it by depends on the market rate for that area, if that is €2k or above and they have 3 examples of that, then your rent will be set at €2k plus, from the date the new rent rate begins. On that date you might wish you had accepted the incremental increases offered, I too think this is being offered to help you out op, if rates are €2k or higher, the LL could just as easily set it at that from day one (giving correct notice of course). You should get on daft and see what properties are renting for, then see if this is to your benefit or not.

Last increase was Jan 2015 so we were expecting another increase starting next January. No correct notice has been given, like I said , just a phone call yesterday.

Yes, I had a look on daft and will investigate further tonight

davo10

Whyner wrote: »

Last increase was Jan 2015 so we were expecting another increase starting next January. No correct notice has been given, like I said , just a phone call yesterday.

Yes, I had a look on daft and will investigate further tonight

So rent review is due in January, play your cards right and if €2k is the market rate you could be paying that from May onward. Result, the landlord gains €2k extra over the first 9 months and you lose it. Stupid landlord.

Whyner

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The notification the o/p got is not valid. When he contests it he will win. The attempted review will be deemed to be a review and it will be another 2 years and 3 months before the next one.

I presume you're joking

Whyner

April 73 wrote: »

OP says the rent wasn't raised last year as a result of raising it the year before. Sounds like the two year period is coming to an end & a review is due.
Regardless the correct notice needs to be given and three comparable properties quoted. If the average rent is €2000 then the LL is doing the tenant a favour. If the average rent is around €1800 that's a bad deal & shouldn't be agreed.

However if the rent had been €1675 for two years it's quite possible the average is now €2000.

This sums it all up nicely. Yes, it may be best to accept it

Whyner

davo10 wrote: »

So rent review is due in January, play your cards right and if €2k is the market rate you could be paying that from May onward. Result, the landlord gains €2k extra over the first 9 months and you lose it. Stupid landlord.

You've lost me

mdebets

davo10 wrote: »

Based on the assumption that the market rate is €2k and the the letting agent will eventually issue a valid notice, this offer is favourable to you to the tune of €2k in the first 9 months. Have I found you?

But if the OP plays his hand right, he can save even more, and will only be paying 1837 per month for the last 1 year 9 months of the rent freeze.
If the current average rent is really 2000, then sign the contract and say nothing to the landlord. After 3 months, pay the increased rent of 1837 (you could check, if the rent increase is in the correct form and reject it if it isn't, but that could lead to the landlord issuing a correct rent review, you should decide this on calculating, what you can save by the delay, compared top the increased rent). When the second increase to 2000 is due, don't pay it, as it would be a second increase within the 2 year limit and the landlord can't enforce it, as it isn't legal. Continue to pay the 1837 per month.
If you complain now, the landlord could change the rent increase to the maximum allowed amount, if you don't, he can charge you a maximum of 1837 per month after the first 3 month of your contract.

Marcusm

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

That breaches the RTA.

One increase allowed every 24 months. They are seeking to increase 3 times in 12 months. Not allowed.

I'm guessing this is your typical gordon gecko moron estate agent that came up with this idea.

Is it not that it can only be reviewed once every 24 months. Sounds like only a single review has been undertaken although there is some variation in the quantum of rent. If €1837 (the average) is an acceptable current rent for the dwelling, the OP has a potential advantage as if he leaves prior to the end of the 2 year period, he would have a discount on that amount.

Of course the idiotic EA/landlord is proposing the approach in the hope that €2000 stands as the base amount for any discussion in 2 years. Theoretically, the current rent is relevant to the future rent review.

4ensic15

davo10 wrote: »

Just ill informed. An invalid notice is just that, invalid, it doesn't apply. The LL will then present a valid one and the clock starts again from the date on the correct notice.

It is you who is ill informed.

http://www.rtb.ie/docs/default-source/tribunal-reports/tr0216-001600-dr1215-22832-report.pdf?sfvrsn=0

davo10

4ensic15 wrote: »

It is you who is ill informed.

http://www.rtb.ie/docs/default-source/tribunal-reports/tr0216-001600-dr1215-22832-report.pdf?sfvrsn=0

I stand corrected and informed. Thank you. Claw Hammer my apologies, your advice is absolutely right, mine is wrong. Even an invalid review is still a review, no further one can be presented for 2 years, 3 months, I had assumed the LL had the option to correct the notice and present again, they don't.