Summary of a House extension

jay0109

Have just come through the other side of a house extension in Sth Dub and wanted to put some info down that may be of assistance to other users on here. I had read back through years of threads in this forum trying to educate myself on the process, potential costs etc and was able to pull something bits of info together.
Firstly, I'm not here advocating this as the best path to follow. We were lucky that things didn't go wrong, that it turns out we had a good builder who was accommodating, there were no complications. We went without an Architect or any other professional on our side mainly to save on costs, but also as we felt we knew what we wanted and would be able to outline and articulate that. I am not saying everyone should do this (before I get attacked by the Professionals on here!!!). We did what worked for us.

So back in June/July I started contacting builders who I had received names of from people on here and also some who turned up on google searches, 6 in all came out. I outlined what I thought the extension would look like and each of them then gave their twist on the design. 3 didn't come back with any quotes and 3 did. The prices varied by about 15% between lowest and highest for a sub300 ft kitchen extension and the rebuilding of an existing smaller living room extension. We went with the highest bid because we felt more comfortable dealing with him from the meetings we had, we liked the package of work he could offer, his design ideas were sharp and not looking to cut corners. And his references and pictures of work done on his website were all very good. There was a bit of negotiating on price and we managed to get it reduced closer to the other bids. One other key factor in selecting this builder was his ability to start on the date we wanted so as to allow us to have works completed for xmas.
We agreed a programme of works which included all the major/minor items we wanted covered including some other jobs around the house/exterior. This included everything from the clearing of the site to foundations to Engineers visits/certification to windows to insulation to electricians/plumbers, lighting etc. A very detailed list which we felt necessary so that we weren't hit with extras later. This was then agreed and added as an appendix to a generic contract that we both signed. We had checked insurance/indemnity certs etc at this stage also.

The work has gone well since day 1. We had no unforeseen issues when digging for the foundations, only 1 structural issue was found when knocking the old extension but the builder covered this. We did get extra work done on the old extension which was not included in the original scope of works and a price was agreed for that before it commenced. But there were no other extras incurred by ourselves during the project despite us throwing in a good few more small jobs elsewhere as we went along. In fairness, the Builders were sound about it and didn't mind as long as the job wasn't too big.
The Builder recommended a kitchen design/manufacturer that works on a lot of his projects but we were't obliged to go with them. But they gave us a good price and we were happy with the design. And he also recommended Painters he regularly uses. They came, gave us a quote and we went with them too as the price was good for the amount of work involved. He had his own team of plumbers, electricians, various specialists along the way - these were brought on to site as needed and all was co-ordinated by the Foreman on the job (he ran a tight ship and didn't suffer any half done work, delays etc). Work was usually 8-6 every M-F with every 2nd Saturday worked as well on average).

We're very happy with the outcome. The project only went a few days over the schedule despite the many minor and 1 major extra we threw in. While they have 1 or 2 things to finish (waiting on delivery of some materials), we are 99% there and I expect to make the final payment next week. We have a beautiful extension with a lot of glass giving great views out to the garden. It's warm and well lit. The decking/steps outside will look good in the summer when all has settled down and we get some new bushes/plants in the ground. The site has been cleaned up really well after.
I've had extended family call in during the works on regular occasions and some of them know a thing or two about building. They have been very impressed with the workmanship, attention to detail, materials used etc. So that was very reassuring for us as things progressed.

Some points to watch out for.
All major electrical appliances now have to have their own switch on the wall…double oven, extractor hood, microwave (inbuilt), dishwasher etc. If I was aware of this in advance, I'd have had them all set up on the small L wall part of our kitchen rather than close to the appliance location and kind of hidden out of the way(if that was possible).
We lived in the house throughout and were blessed with the mild winter we had so far. It wasn't easy with just boardings keeping the elements out for about 7 weeks and most of the kitchen being out of action for a few weeks also. Close to the end of it I was getting edgy with it all, but we got there. But this might not be for everyone, especially if the build is much longer

I'll update this more as I think of stuff I have left out. And if anyone has questions or needs more info, just let me know or PM me for specifics.

duckie80

can i ask was this a extension out the back of your home that you didnt need planning permission for ??
reason for asking is im looking into a extension and wondering do i have to go down the route of arctiture and drawing up plans tks

Gumbo

duckie80 wrote: »

can i ask was this a extension out the back of your home that you didnt need planning permission for ??
reason for asking is im looking into a extension and wondering do i have to go down the route of arctiture and drawing up plans tks

Depends on what your needs are.
Who will build it?
How will they price it?
Who will supervise it?

Even extension that don't require planning, many get plans as a basis of the contract with the builder.

jay0109

Hi

yes, it was an extension to the kitchen at the back of the house. About 30sq metres so didn't require planning.

jay0109

Too late to edit the initial post so wanted to add in a piece here on extras. Caveat Emptor!

As mentioned above, we asked for extras during the build. Some big ones we agreed a price for. Some others we threw in cheekily and despite some sighs from the Builders, they agreed to do it. We thought these were being thown in for free...we were partly wrong on that front!!
At the end of the build just as the final payment was being made, a bill arrived in for extras. Didn't see it coming. Not all extras were charged for...some were highighted on the extras bill as being free of charge, others had a value against them.
Some of the extras we felt were unfairly levied against us...extra lighting suggested by the Electricians that we never asked for or hinted at. But as they promtped us, we assumed it was just them throwing it in as it was just an extra bit of wiring etc.

It wasn't a huge extras bill v's the total cost but it left a bad taste at the time. We did negotiate it downwards but coughed up on the basis that we did ask for most of the items on the bill and were a bit innocent on thinking they were for free. Lesson learned.

Alkers

Any pictures?

jay0109

Just checked my phone and only have 2 pics that have no people in them!
Will try and take a few more over the weekend.

Basically, in pic #2, from the end of the island on is the extended area

conacks

Hi,
Roughly what was the overall costing for the 30 Sq m extension, thinking of getting similar done and I'd appreciate an idea at to what budget I'd need. Thanks

smelly sock

jay0109 wrote: »

Just checked my phone and only have 2 pics that have no people in them!
Will try and take a few more over the weekend.

Basically, in pic #2, from the end of the island on is the extended area

Lovely Job Jay,

Well done.

jay0109

conacks wrote: »

Hi,
Roughly what was the overall costing for the 30 Sq m extension, thinking of getting similar done and I'd appreciate an idea at to what budget I'd need. Thanks

Excluding the extras for work done elsewhere in the house and the re-building of the existing living room extension ,mine came in at €1,865 per sq metre or €175 per sq ft, net.

conacks

jay0109 wrote: »

Excluding the extras for work done elsewhere in the house and the re-building of the existing living room extension ,mine came in at €1,865 per sq metre or €175 per sq ft, net.

Great thanks for the info. nice job & enjoy the new space

angeleyes

jay0109 wrote: »

Just checked my phone and only have 2 pics that have no people in them!
Will try and take a few more over the weekend.

Basically, in pic #2, from the end of the island on is the extended area

Lovely pictures jay and thank you for this thread. Best of luck with your new addition to your home. Am looking to do this adventure next year but as my DH is disabled will need to make modifications.

jay0109

Took some more pics over the weekend to give a better overview of the job in the OP

neddynasty

What type (laminate/solid) of wooden floor did you use?

Building extension at the moment and trying to a choose floor. Wood like to go with wood in the kitchen but worried about water.

Pics look good!

jay0109

On our Builder's recommendation, we went with the Balaterio laminate product. Anything I'd read about it on other forums and threads was good and while pricey enough, the installation was done by the Builder and included in the overall cost of the project. So that softened the overall cost.

I can PM you the name of the shop we got it in if you want. They delivered it to us after picking it up in some sort of central warehouse in Dublin

neddynasty

jay0109 wrote: »

I can PM you the name of the shop we got it in if you want. They delivered it to us after picking it up in some sort of central warehouse in Dublin

Please do PM me. Would you know what rating the floor had? AC?

mp31

Nice job. Congratulations.

We're thinking of doing something similar this year and I'm starting to do my research into selecting builders and getting quotes etc.

Did you get a set of detailed drawings/plans for the builders to use to provide a quote? If so did you employ an architect for the drawings?

Also, was there a big difference in the level of detail in the quote received from the different builders?

How did you make sure the scope of works contained everything you needed to get done. To the uninitiated, it's hard to know for example what certifications are needed and when they should be done.

I'd like to make sure we don't miss anything out and get hit with additional fees/delays at the end.

Thanks

jay0109

mp31

as I said in my op, I didn't employ an architect. I had an idea of what I wanted myself (it was a straightforward rectangle on to the back of the kitchen).
I outlined to the builders who called round what we wanted, how far out it would go, the windows incl in the roof itself, rough idea of finishes etc and they took their measurements, went off and came back with a quote. There were no drawings at this stage.
Each builder had his own twist on the design within the outlined footprint.

When we had a solid outline of the extension decided in our heads with the builders, I then did up a floor plan myself to scale (in excel!) which showed the existing room, the extension added on, where the island would go, where windows/doors/ would go, positioning of the internal steps, the kitchen layout etc. This was as much for me as for them so that I could envisage the finished job.
This was set to scale when printed and we used it as the basis for the extension with the builder we chose.
The builder had his own design ideas and came up with the finer points such as the overhang on the outside, positioning of lighting, the type/style of roof etc...all agreed with us. His window guy is an architect by trade and he did up some drawings at an early stage of what the outside would look like with the windows/doors in.
Like I said, this approach is not for everyone. But if you know exactly what you want as we did, then it could work for you too.

All 3 builders gave a quote based on the measurements from the site visit. 2 of them gave us a detailed schedule of works (I can send this on to you if you PM me)- this outlined the detail such as # of lights, type of sockets, details on the foundation, electrics, plumbing etc.
After we selected the builder, I took his schedule and added in the extras we wanted such as jobs elsewhere in the house, stainless steel sockets rather than white, specifics on #'s of lights, outside sockets and taps, radiators etc. These were added in after sitting down with the builder who agreed to take them in within the existing quote he submitted in most cases or at X extra cost for some items.
Not everything could be agreed on at this stage i.e. final layout of the decking down to the garden. So this was put into the schedule as 'to be decided'.
We then signed the schedule, added it to the contract and signed that too.

What I added into the schedule was based on dozens of threads I had read on here over the past few years + blogs from websites such as Tradesmen.ie. And of course the specific things we (herself!) wanted such as the s/s sockets, tv points, replacement of existing internal doors in the new enlarged room etc.

Hope this helps

mp31

Many thanks for such a detailed reply... and sorry I should have read your first post more thoroughly.

What a great idea of using an XL doc to map out the space with each cell representing a specific size of floor space...brilliant!

It sounds like you spent a lot of time researching the internet for working out the finer details of the build which is what turns an extension into a really great living space.

I would be grateful for a PM containing the schedule of works as well as the builder's contact details.

RoryW

Well done, great job.

Could you PM me the shop details for where you got the kitchen floors Balaterio laminate

(Is that a secret man shed hidden under the wooden decking/stairs outside !)

THanka

jay0109

Nope, no secret man shed
Just some storage under the decking. It's only about 4.5ft high so only sutabl as a man shed for someone from the Shire!
I've just PM'd you the Balterio details

duckie80

fantasic job done, looks really nice jay,

can i ask you about the outside flu for your fire how do you find it placed outside
also is your flat roof a pvc or felt roof

jay0109

It's a GRP flat roof system...fibreglass chemically bonded to the roof frame.
I was a bit afraid of flat roofs having had 1 at home growing up and knowing the issues that came with it. It was recommended by all 3 builders who gave me quotes with me initially starting off with a pitched roof.
So I read up a bit on it and asked some builders I knew at home. That put my mind to ease a fair bit.

As for that flu. We've inherited that. It links to a small stove in the living room that when we lit it for the one and only time last May, it smoked us out of it. We got someone in to look at it and he said no more fires to be lit as the whole setup was dangerous.
So 1 of our 2 x 2017 projects is to put in a new stove with it coming through on the outside much higher than it is currently, about 7ft hopefully. But I haven't spoken to any stove guys yet on this so I've an open mind on how it will work.

duckie80

interesting about the flu jay, we have a stove as our main sourse of heat , if the wind blows southernly we are in bother with down draft, to the point 3 years ago we were all hositpalized due to carbon minoxide posion only luckly for our alarm.
so looking into alternative options for a new chimbney.
like you i will be chattting a few stove guys too.
As for flat roofs our excisting kitchen has a flat roof for 40+ years ( felt ) had a lad in to price it last week for new flat roof to cover new extension and extesting extension and he was very surprised as to the condition it is still in, so goes to show pending on how well its done it will last

percy212

I am about to do something similar. Great info!

jay0109

Is there not some sort of cap that you can put on the flu to stop draughts impacting? There might be a simple solution to your issue rather than having to replace the whole thing as I'm sure a lot more houses have suffered with winds from certain directions over the years

duckie80

jay0109 wrote: »

Is there not some sort of cap that you can put on the flu to stop draughts impacting? There might be a simple solution to your issue rather than having to repace the whole thing as I'm sure a lot more houses have suffered with winds from certain directions over the years

we have tried everything, at the moment their is a spinner on it, still the same, i think its just the chimbney itself thats possibly damaged

mcneil

jay0109 wrote: »

Too late to edit the initial post so wanted to add in a piece here on extras. Caveat Emptor!

As mentioned above, we asked for extras during the build. Some big ones we agreed a price for. Some others we threw in cheekily and despite some sighs from the Builders, they agreed to do it. We thought these were being thown in for free...we were partly wrong on that front!!
At the end of the build just as the final payment was being made, a bill arrived in for extras. Didn't see it coming. Not all extras were charged for...some were highighted on the extras bill as being free of charge, others had a value against them.
Some of the extras we felt were unfairly levied against us...extra lighting suggested by the Electricians that we never asked for or hinted at. But as they promtped us, we assumed it was just them throwing it in as it was just an extra bit of wiring etc.

It wasn't a huge extras bill v's the total cost but it left a bad taste at the time. We did negotiate it downwards but coughed up on the basis that we did ask for most of the items on the bill and were a bit innocent on thinking they were for free. Lesson learned.

I get this quite alot. Clients add extras, i bill for them and they think they where for free! Can i ask you, why is it you where getting them for free and how much was the extras.

jay0109

I thought they were free because
a. they were so small as to take up very little time/required no 3rd party materials
b. the Builder did much sighing and cribbing that he was making no money on the job on each occassion something was asked. This made me think they were defo for free. A cost was never mentioned or that there wuld be a cost at the end.
c. I had made it clear that anything that would cost us money over and above the agreed works were to be laid out, written down and agreed to by all sides. To avoid confusion and because I was at the limit of my budget

Overall the cost was not huge. Less than 5% of the Builders total cost which we negotiated down a bit more

percy212

That is VERY annoying. Sounds like you handled it well. Fair play.

jay0109 wrote: »

b. the Builder did much sighing and cribbing that he was making no money on the job on each occassion something was asked. This made me think they were defo for free. A cost was never mentioned or that there wuld be a cost at the end.

Gumbo

percy212 wrote: »

That is VERY annoying. Sounds like you handled it well. Fair play.

Not really. Changes require Labour and time.
Someone has to pay for this.

Depends on what the changes were and how often changes were made that will determine if it's annoying or not.

percy212

If the builder is sighing about making no money, and not communicating that small changes are an additional cost (despite the fact that the OP made it clear any changes to cost were to be explained), then yeah, annoying. It's typical of builders in Ireland actually. Dragging their arses around the house looking for cups of tea, and NOT explaining anything.

kceire wrote: »

Not really. Changes require Labour and time.
Someone has to pay for this.

Depends on what the changes were and how often changes were made that will determine if it's annoying or not.

Gumbo

percy212 wrote: »

If the builder is sighing about making no money, and not communicating that small changes are an additional cost (despite the fact that the OP made it clear any changes to cost were to be explained), then yeah, annoying. It's typical of builders in Ireland actually. Dragging their arses around the house looking for cups of tea, and NOT explaining anything.

That's a communication problem between contractor and client.
To expect them for free is silly or at the very least not quiery if there's a charge prior to giving the go ahead. It's 50/50 blame here IMO.

jay0109

percy212 wrote: »

If the builder is sighing about making no money, and not communicating that small changes are an additional cost (despite the fact that the OP made it clear any changes to cost were to be explained), then yeah, annoying. It's typical of builders in Ireland actually. Dragging their arses around the house looking for cups of tea, and NOT explaining anything.

Can fault my builder for the work/effort they put in on site. 10 hurs days were the norm, with barely 30 mins for lunch break each day.

I think the blame is 75:25 to the builder here.
They are experienced and do this for a living. They knew in their heads that each extra job was going to be an extra at the end and they could have said this as they were requested. But they didn't and just lobbed a bill in on the final day totally catching us by surprise!
My innocence was at fault too but this was my first time ever dealing with builders.

Anyways, it was a small issue in the overall context of a good job. But defintiely something for others to keep in mind when dealing with them.

mcneil

jay0109 wrote: »

I thought they were free because
a. they were so small as to take up very little time/required no 3rd party materials
b. the Builder did much sighing and cribbing that he was making no money on the job on each occassion something was asked. This made me think they were defo for free. A cost was never mentioned or that there wuld be a cost at the end.
c. I had made it clear that anything that would cost us money over and above the agreed works were to be laid out, written down and agreed to by all sides. To avoid confusion and because I was at the limit of my budget

Overall the cost was not huge. Less than 5% of the Builders total cost which we negotiated down a bit more

Ive worked on jobs where clients look at jobs and think they dont take much time yet can take a half day or even a day to do. Define something small on your job and what was the price given for it. Be truthful now!

mcneil

percy212 wrote: »

If the builder is sighing about making no money, and not communicating that small changes are an additional cost (despite the fact that the OP made it clear any changes to cost were to be explained), then yeah, annoying. It's typical of builders in Ireland actually. Dragging their arses around the house looking for cups of tea, and NOT explaining anything.

Are you going by hear say or experience. I work in the building trades and i refuse tea when offered because i know ll them cups of teas time will eat into my price! What i do know is theres a serious amount of people who think they know what they are talking about when it comes to the building game yet they know jack sh1t! For example, over the years ive been in and out of peoples houses and they all blame the movement cracks on the plasterers, yet the plastering was excellent. Typical of the people in Ireland actually! I could go on with other examples but i think you know what im talking about.

jay0109

mcneil wrote: »

Ive worked on jobs where clients look at jobs and think they dont take much time yet can take a half day or even a day to do. Define something small on your job and what was the price given for it. Be truthful now!

We now have a utility that encompasses part of the old kitchen. We left the old units in place there. We had a dishwasher in there thats now gone as there's a new dishwasher built in out in the extended part.
So we asked for some of the doors from the old discarded units to be fitted into the gaps left in the utility with the dishwasher gone.
This was charged at a few hundred euro.

Gumbo

jay0109 wrote: »

We now have a utility that encompasses part of the old kitchen. We left the old units in place there. We had a dishwasher in there thats now gone as there's a new dishwasher built in out in the extended part.
So we asked for some of the doors from the old discarded units to be fitted into the gaps left in the utility with the dishwasher gone.
This was charged at a few hundred euro.

Days rate for a carpenter and then site attendance for the main contractor and follow on delay that the carpenter would have been doing on that day instead of the kitchen presses.

Very easily adds up to 3-400 euro IMO.

Officer Giggles

Excellent post OP, could you PM the details of the builder you used please

mcneil

jay0109 wrote: »

We now have a utility that encompasses part of the old kitchen. We left the old units in place there. We had a dishwasher in there thats now gone as there's a new dishwasher built in out in the extended part.
So we asked for some of the doors from the old discarded units to be fitted into the gaps left in the utility with the dishwasher gone.
This was charged at a few hundred euro.

Where you surprised at the bill for this. A few hundred euro is the norm for something like this. What i seem to get from the public here in ireland is if they earn 350-500 a week for working 40 hours, they look at a job that they think will take maybe half a day(which they are usually wrong) then they look at their own wages and think they tradesman should charge 60 euro for his time. They forget to take into consideration that the tradesman has to pay for tools, tools maintenance, van, van insurance, insurance, tax, usc, diesel and so on...

percy212

And the lad working in an office has to pay for his own car, petrol, insurance, dry cleaning, lunches, coffees, childcare.

jay0109

I've outlined my thoughts/side on the whole 'extras' bill at the end of this project. Not going to keep rehashing it.
It's done, lesson learned and hopefully the story will be of use to some other uers on here to avoid such a scenario arising for them.

JustAThought

Great finish onnthe outside - I've seen a fair few hash jobs on exterior extensions but yours really has a lovely style and finish to it. Congratulations!! Faboulus floor! Inwas looking at this both from a dealer in Louth & Arnotts - but could't put insulation under it so am still procrastinating; it was very expensive but a fantastic product. Did you manage to put under floor insulation under yours? I don't want to lay the recommended filler on my wood floors as an underlay either

tradesman

percy212 wrote: »

And the lad working in an office has to pay for his own car, petrol, insurance, dry cleaning, lunches, coffees, childcare.

you are forgetting that a van is a tool not a car! it is like an expensive wheel barrow! tradesmen also have cleaning bills - it is dirty work. they also eat lunch, coffee, & oh yes they have kids as well!

mcneil

percy212 wrote: »

And the lad working in an office has to pay for his own car, petrol, insurance, dry cleaning, lunches, coffees, childcare.

Are you trying to say that a tradesman should be just charging for his hourly rate same as a wage someone would get in an office? Seems to me that you are.

jay0109

JustAThought wrote: »

Great finish onnthe outside - I've seen a fair few hash jobs on exterior extensions but yours really has a lovely style and finish to it. Congratulations!! Faboulus floor! Inwas looking at this both from a dealer in Louth & Arnotts - but could't put insulation under it so am still procrastinating; it was very expensive but a fantastic product. Did you manage to put under floor insulation under yours? I don't want to lay the recommended filler on my wood floors as an underlay either

Not sure I'm following you.
Our floor has the underlay under it that we bought also. The extended area has a different underlay to the old build area. This is because newly poured concrete may still have some damp.
And when the Builders were constructing the extension, they also put in sheeting to stop damp rising up. Before filling in the rest of the floor.
PM me if you want the name of the company we got the flooring in.

Does that answer your question?

IrishRed2013

Really good thread Jay, thanks for sharing.   
Nice to hear good feedback about the builders you used too.  So often it's bad endings, but this seemed to work out well for you and the pics look great.

jamboambo1

Can you pm me your builder details if you were happy with them.
THanks

James 007

jamboambo1 wrote: »

Can you pm me your builder details if you were happy with them.
THanks

Jay, could you also PM the builder details to me, and if you could also send on the schedule of works that the builders used for the pricing element, that you mentioned in a previous post.

curiousb

Jay, thanks for this thread. We are embarking on a similar project ourselves, so would really appreciate it if you could PM the schedule of works you used. We are talking to a builder at the moment so it would be great to have this to help us flesh out our requirements.

BoardsMember

Great post OP, thanks.

If you could PM me the name of your builder and the company that supplied the flooring I would appreciate it, and the painter info too please!