Some questions re flying!

lemmno

So.... I guess you could say I'm afraid of flying. I can get on a plane and not be afraid but once there's any kind of turbulence I'm gone.. However, once it's over, I've forgotten it. I have a huge fear the minute the plane bumps at all. I look around and everyone else is fine and I'm terrified. I figure if I educate myself a bit more maybe it wouldn't affect me so much. And all the 'what are you afraid about, think of them as bumps in the road' thing doesn't really help me. There is no road under me, just 30,000ft of a drop!

Anyway. I fly a lot and I have noticed a few things that I'm wondering if they really are coincidence or if I'm completely bonkers. If anyone in the know can tell me that would be great!

1. Is there a reason why the Leeds Bradford to Dublin Ryanair flight always smacks the runway hard? I've flown this route 5 times and each time the plane touched down it banged down, to gasps from everyone, not just scardey old me. This hasn't happened on any other route I've been on.

2. Does Ryanair descend at a quicker rate than other airlines?

3. Do easyjet pilots start flying at an earlier age than others?

4. If there's turbulence ahead, do some airlines just fly through it in order to arrive at their destination early/on time rather than fly around it, in order to make their bonus?

5. Is there anything I can do to get myself through turbulence? Other than mimicking the breathing of a pregnant woman in labour!

6. Are there extra crosswinds at Dublin airport?

7. I know of courses to help with a fear of flying, but my fear is only of turbulence. Are there any courses just for that?

8. Are flight crews trained to deal with people who are afraid and should I bother informing them?

9. Stobart (Aer Lingus tiny planes)...will this aircraft feel every bump worse? Does it go as high as the others?

10. What's an air pocket?

I try to minimise the effect of it by sitting in the middle of the plane but it still gets me. I have been known to burst into tears when it's particularly bad. Especially when even the cabin crew are instructed to sit down. I'm pretty sure I get panic attacks. I just don't want it to get so bad that I won't get on a plane. I fly short routes a lot and I have done long haul but I avoid them now. I feel I'm getting worse as I get older.

Again I'm pretty sure a lot of the above are stupid questions but please humour me!

Thank you

Gaoth Laidir

lemmno wrote: »

So.... I guess you could say I'm afraid of flying. I can get on a plane and not be afraid but once there's any kind of turbulence I'm gone.. However, once it's over, I've forgotten it. I have a huge fear the minute the plane bumps at all. I look around and everyone else is fine and I'm terrified. I figure if I educate myself a bit more maybe it wouldn't affect me so much. And all the 'what are you afraid about, think of them as bumps in the road' thing doesn't really help me. There is no road under me, just 30,000ft of a drop!

Anyway. I fly a lot and I have noticed a few things that I'm wondering if they really are coincidence or if I'm completely bonkers. If anyone in the know can tell me that would be great!

1. Is there a reason why the Leeds Bradford to Dublin Ryanair flight always smacks the runway hard? I've flown this route 5 times and each time the plane touched down it banged down, to gasps from everyone, not just scardey old me. This hasn't happened on any other route I've been on.

2. Does Ryanair descend at a quicker rate than other airlines?

3. Do easyjet pilots start flying at an earlier age than others?

4. If there's turbulence ahead, do some airlines just fly through it in order to arrive at their destination early/on time rather than fly around it, in order to make their bonus?

5. Is there anything I can do to get myself through turbulence? Other than mimicking the breathing of a pregnant woman in labour!

6. Are there extra crosswinds at Dublin airport?

7. I know of courses to help with a fear of flying, but my fear is only of turbulence. Are there any courses just for that?

8. Are flight crews trained to deal with people who are afraid and should I bother informing them?

9. Stobart (Aer Lingus tiny planes)...will this aircraft feel every bump worse? Does it go as high as the others?

10. What's an air pocket?

I try to minimise the effect of it by sitting in the middle of the plane but it still gets me. I have been known to burst into tears when it's particularly bad. Especially when even the cabin crew are instructed to sit down. I'm pretty sure I get panic attacks. I just don't want it to get so bad that I won't get on a plane. I fly short routes a lot and I have done long haul but I avoid them now. I feel I'm getting worse as I get older.

Again I'm pretty sure a lot of the above are stupid questions but please humour me!

Thank you

1. Ryanair pilots do make firmer contact with the runway in order to deploy the spoilers as early as possible and maybe make that earlier exit. I think this policy is referred to as "positive contact".

2. No.

3. I wouldn't say so.

4. I wouldn't say so either. Safety is No. 1 for all airlines.

5. Watch some YouTube videos on just how much an aircraft wing can flex and you'll see that what seems like severe jolting to you is chicken feed to an airframe.

6. Not really. In the strongest storms we get the wind can be at that 220° direction which is between both runways. This is usually what closes the airport, especially if the runway is wet (lower crosswind limits). Any airport is prone to crosswinds, but there are strict limits in what a flight crew can land in.

7. Turbulence is just like bumps in the road...only it's a Meath road!

8. Their prime duty is your safety. Depending on workload they may have time to chat with you.

9. These planes don't go as high as jets. They may give a less smooth ride but they are equally robust when it comes to Turbulence.

10. There is no such thing as an air pocket. This is a common misunderstanding. It is merely a change in lift brought about by an upward current of air or an abrupt change in relative windspeed/direction.

The general advice is to always have your seat belt loosely attached in case of inadvertent Turbulence. Injuries are usually caused by crew or passengers out of their seats or without their seat belts, so use the seat belt and just enjoy the ride. You will be ok.

1012594711

I have copied the questions to consider can I answer any of them, as I too don't fly much but study flight theory a lot. I experienced having lots of questions on various things, and can understand why you might ask them in high volume. I haven't read the 'Flight' magazine, so I am less than a total dedicated enthusiast, I hope any answers I give aren't speculation. I made a post to an amusing debate on a sound heard in cabin. I posted up my theory which was wide of the mark, but I got what I think was the real cause of the sound

1012594711

As I'm a 'Newbie' I missed the fact that many of the 10 or so questions about flight have been answered, so I will look at those answers. Both questions and answers are very interesting. If I can think of anything to add, I will

Negative_G

Just regarding Leeds Bradford. It has an unusual runway in so much as if you are standing at one end, it rises towards the middle like a 'hump' and then slopes down toward the other end. From one end you cannot see an aircraft if it was stationary at the other end. Think of it as landing slightly uphill as opposed to a flat horizontal surface.

Contrary to popular belief, a firm landing, as opposed to a 'hard' landing is better for stopping performance. An aircraft that attempts to 'grease' it on to the runway ends up eating up alot more runway. This isn't an issue for the vast majority of airports but it is good airmanship to have a firm landing, especially in wet or contaminated conditions.

Negative_G

Ill attempt to answer some of these.

1. Is there a reason why the Leeds Bradford to Dublin Ryanair flight always smacks the runway hard? I've flown this route 5 times and each time the plane touched down it banged down, to gasps from everyone, not just scardey old me. This hasn't happened on any other route I've been on.

As above.

2. Does Ryanair descend at a quicker rate than other airlines?

Not necessarily. I'm not familiar with Ryanair ops procedures but many airlines operate Continuous Descent Approaches and many airports demand it for noise reduction to those on the ground.

In simple terms, CDA's aim to have an aircraft maintain a constant descent from high cruising levels all the way to the runway. What may happen is an aircraft may delay its Top Of Desecent point by several miles with a trade off being that they remain at higher altitude for longer (less fuel burn). This means that later they may have to have a higher rate of descent to meet the profile down to the runway.

3. Do easyjet pilots start flying at an earlier age than others?

Not necessarily. As a budget airline they have a young workforce. Young pilots will often begin their career their with the aim of building hours and experience with a view to moving to some of the more established better paying carriers.

4. If there's turbulence ahead, do some airlines just fly through it in order to arrive at their destination early/on time rather than fly around it, in order to make their bonus?

It depends on the severity of the turbulence. There are three levels of turbulence.

Light - A very light occasional bumping. Walking is not an issue.

Moderate - Slghtly rougher. If you were seated you may get shuffled around in your seat.

Severe - It is likely you could be thrown from your seat if not belted.

Pilots can and do identify areas of turbulence prior to flight from significant weather charts and SIGMET reports. Light and moderate turbulence pose little danger to aircraft or passengers. Severe turbulence would require a possible change of route or flight level. Sever Turbulence can at times be avoided by climbing or descending to a different flight level. Pilots can also request 'ride reports' from other aircraft ahead of their track to see what they are experiencing and therefore plan accordingly.

5. Is there anything I can do to get myself through turbulence? Other than mimicking the breathing of a pregnant woman in labour!

Easier said than done I know but try and focus your mind on something else. Invest in some good noise cancelling headsets or even just earphones. This will eliminate most of the gasps from fellow passengers as well as other associated noise. It may help create a calming atmosphere.

The most important thing to do above all else is to always fly with your seatbelt loosely fastened when seated regardless of how smooth it may seem. The vast majority of injuries sustained, apart from those who may be standing in the isle, are from passengers who do not have their seatbelts fastened who then encounter sever turbulence.

6. Are there extra crosswinds at Dublin airport?

No. Dublin has two runways. They are orientated 28/10 and 34/16. Think of a compass and draw a line from each number to give you an idea of how they are orinentated in relation to the land. Ireland has predominately South Westerly airflow so the wind generally comes from between 220 degrees and 270 degrees. So the most used runway is runway 28. Dublin only experiences cross wind issues when the wind is gusting strongly from 220 degrees as it is 60 degrees off both runway 28 and 16. Though this does happen it is rarely more than a few days a year. Worst case scenario is that the crosswind is outside the limit of the aircraft and you divert to Shannon.

7. I know of courses to help with a fear of flying, but my fear is only of turbulence. Are there any courses just for that?

I haven't seen ones specifically for turbulence. If you have the time and interest you should spend some time learning about the general principals of flight and take it from there. Education can give comfort and help reduce stress.

8. Are flight crews trained to deal with people who are afraid and should I bother informing them?

There is no harm mentioning to cabin crew that you have a fear of flying. There is not a whole lot they can do for you but it is good for their own situational awareness.

9. Stobart (Aer Lingus tiny planes)...will this aircraft feel every bump worse? Does it go as high as the others?

Stobart aircraft do not cruise at high levels like other jet liners. This is as a result of the design of the aircraft and the fact that propellers are most efficient where the air is more dense at lower levels. Very simply.

Generally an aircraft with larger mass and forward energy will feel less of an effect than a smaller aircraft if exposed to the same environmental factors.

As propellor aircraft operate at lower altitudes than jet airliner's, they are often exposed to more weather whereby a jet airliner can often climb above it and remain clear of it.

Propellors by their nature can cause more vibration than a jet engine also.

10. What's an air pocket?

An air pocket is a very broad term. More pertinent to aviation are Jet Streams. These Jet Streams are areas of air which are moving at a much higher speed relative to the air around it. Think of them as motorways of high speed air, they can be dozens of miles wide, thousands of feet high and hundreds of miles long. Crossing perpendicular to a jet stream can result in turbulence. Think of crossing an elevated exposed bridge in your car and the wind is directly impacting one side of your car. It can be uncomfortable.

11. I try to minimise the effect of it by sitting in the middle of the plane but it still gets me. I have been known to burst into tears when it's particularly bad. Especially when even the cabin crew are instructed to sit down. I'm pretty sure I get panic attacks. I just don't want it to get so bad that I won't get on a plane. I fly short routes a lot and I have done long haul but I avoid them now. I feel I'm getting worse as I get older.

I would really suggest having a basic knowledge of how aircraft fly and get a working knowledge. I think it is the fear of the unknown for alot of people. The noises, the whines, the dry air. There are reasons for all of these.

There is so much information on the internet to immerse yourself in, to whatever level you wish.

I hope I've answered at least some of your queries. I've tried to avoid using too much jargon or acronymns!

lemmno

Thanks for your replies. Very helpful. I just always feel that I'm the only one afraid. I'll look at the person next to me asleep and I'll think to myself 'I'm hopping in my seat here and you're asleep?!'
I just don't get why I'm so afraid of turbulence. I didn't fly much as a child, maybe I didn't get as much practice as others. But I fly about 14 times a year now, so 28 plane journeys. I can get on but every flight with turbulence (and there seems to be a lot of them lately) I vow to myself that I won't put myself through it again. My partner has suggested a psychology session. I'm seriously thinking of it. I get into such a state.
Do the two pilots discuss together what to do in the event of seeing turbulence ahead? Do they say right John I don't like that ahead, what do you think Barry? Or is it more the plane or controllers tell them what to do?
I'll definitely look at those videos. I did try to find videos before but instead I found a horrific video of a flight over Italy of severe turbulence. Screams, baggage flying..the works. It was Easyjet. The flight with the worst turbulence ever was also easyjet. I don't think I've been the same since then. It didn't help that I saw the pilot going in to the cockpit and he looked about 12. Or that the cabin crew seemed to have 2 girls in training. The lead hostess had to tell them everything, including the safety demo. There was an air of unprofessionalism from the start and then the turbulence started and lasted pretty much the entire flight. I had to get a taxi home when we landed as I was so shaken I couldn't drive. I know it's crazy but I wouldn't get on easyjet again for love nor money.
I really do want to get better as I'd hate to be that person who doesn't bring her kids (if I have any) on holiday because of her own fears. And I certainly wouldn't want to pass this on as I suffer so much on a flight compared to everyone else!

Negative_G

lemmno wrote: »

Thanks for your replies. Very helpful. I just always feel that I'm the only one afraid. I'll look at the person next to me asleep and I'll think to myself 'I'm hopping in my seat here and you're asleep?!'
I just don't get why I'm so afraid of turbulence. I didn't fly much as a child, maybe I didn't get as much practice as others. But I fly about 14 times a year now, so 28 plane journeys. I can get on but every flight with turbulence (and there seems to be a lot of them lately) I vow to myself that I won't put myself through it again. My partner has suggested a psychology session. I'm seriously thinking of it. I get into such a state.
Do the two pilots discuss together what to do in the event of seeing turbulence ahead? Do they say right John I don't like that ahead, what do you think Barry? Or is it more the plane or controllers tell them what to do?
I'll definitely look at those videos. I did try to find videos before but instead I found a horrific video of a flight over Italy of severe turbulence. Screams, baggage flying..the works. It was Easyjet. The flight with the worst turbulence ever was also easyjet. I don't think I've been the same since then. It didn't help that I saw the pilot going in to the cockpit and he looked about 12. Or that the cabin crew seemed to have 2 girls in training. The lead hostess had to tell them everything, including the safety demo. There was an air of unprofessionalism from the start and then the turbulence started and lasted pretty much the entire flight. I had to get a taxi home when we landed as I was so shaken I couldn't drive. I know it's crazy but I wouldn't get on easyjet again for love nor money.
I really do want to get better as I'd hate to be that person who doesn't bring her kids (if I have any) on holiday because of her own fears. And I certainly wouldn't want to pass this on as I suffer so much on a flight compared to everyone else!

Professional help may help. Have you searched for forums where you can connect with others and perhaps glean some tips off them?

When you have a fear of something such as flying, you will be hyper sensitive and small bumps will be magnified to be much worse than reality.

There are various forms of turbulence.

Broadly speaking, flying through or near the edges of clouds will result in some mild bumps. This is purely due to the fact that in large tall clouds known as cumulus clouds. Air is always moving. This air flow simple bumps off the aircraft and moves around it.

At higher levels you can get Clear Air Turbulence. This is where you are not flying through or near cloud but the various air currents moving at different speeds cause 'friction'. An aircraft moving through this area may get turbulence as a result.

Mechanical turbulence happens at lower levels nearer the ground. Mechanical turbulence is caused by the airflow at very low levels being disrupted by the terrain, buildings, trees, other infrastructure etc. You may have experienced times where an aircraft flies a very smooth approach but moves around a bit more as it approaches the runway.

Mountain wave turbulence. Similar to mechanical turbulence but the airflow is disrupted by hills/mountains. So it will rush up one side, 'flow' over the top and cause what are called rotor waves on the other side.

If you think of air like a liquid rather than a gas it may help understand its effects somewhat.

Pilots and cabin crew are highly trained. While you may have seen a young pilot entering the cockpit, he or she will still have had to meet and exceed the the same proficiency standards of someone who has 30 years experience.

Pilots also undergo annual simulator training where they are given various types of technical problems and failures and they must demonstrate the ability to handle the situation. They also receive additional training about the aircraft systems and the latest industry practices.

The aviation industry is highly regulated in every aspect. From your flight and cabin crew, to the ground handlers, air traffic controllers, to the engineers who maintain and fix all the various components. It is one of the reasons why flying is one of, if not the most safe forms of travel.

Irish Steve

A Technical reason for "fiim" landings in Ryanair. The 737-800 is a long aircraft and as a result, the wing loading is higher than on the rest of the 737 family. When landing, as a result of that loading, and the length of the rear section of the fuselage, there is an increased risk of a tail strike if the crew try too hard to get a smooth landing by holding the aircraft off the runway.

It's not unique to Ryanair, any operator that has the 737-800 series in their fleet has this issue, and the way that the airlines avoid this issue is to be very rigid in not allowing the speed to decay below the final approach speed, and if that means that the landing is more robust as a result, a robust landing is better than a damaged aircraft.

It's very hard to accurately predict turbulence, there are several types, the weather forecast can give guidance about the general areas that are more likely to be affected, but there is no easy way to predict it, and one type, (clear air turbulence) it can't be seen on radar as there's usually no cloud associated with it.

Weather systems can also give rise to turbulence in clouds, but they tend to be visible on radar, and can be avoided, though there can be times when there is no easy avoidance, so the route with the least turbulence has to be taken. The larger jets can usually go over such weather, but not always, the smaller prop aircraft can't fly as high, so sometimes have to go through.

Depending on the route you are flying, it may not be possible to avoid areas that are forecast to have turbulence, if a flight encounters turbulence, they may be able to get out of it by climbing or descending to a different level, but in congested airspace, that's not always possible.
-
The best way to cope with it is to keep your seat belt loosely fastened, so if there is an incident, you won't be thrown around. Most of the time, the only thing that happens is the cabin jolts around some, due ot the changing speeds and directions of the external wind flow. While it's possibly noisy, and uncomfortable, the aircraft has been designed to cope with the effects, and there's no risks, even in a severe incident.

And yes, the smaller aircraft do seem to be more affected, simply because the aircraft does not weigh as much as the larger ones, so the air can move it more, a given air mass moving in a different direction can move a small aircraft more than a large one because it takes less energy to move the smaller one.

There have been more turbulence encounters in recent times, and some of that is due to the effects of global warming, there's more energy in the atmosphere, so stronger winds, and more significantly for turbulence, bigger gradients in temperature between the cold and warm air systems that are constantly moving around the globe, and the worst turbulence occurs in the area where these 2 air masses mix.

Gaoth Laidir

lemmno wrote: »

Thanks for your replies. Very helpful. I just always feel that I'm the only one afraid. I'll look at the person next to me asleep and I'll think to myself 'I'm hopping in my seat here and you're asleep?!'
I just don't get why I'm so afraid of turbulence. I didn't fly much as a child, maybe I didn't get as much practice as others. But I fly about 14 times a year now, so 28 plane journeys. I can get on but every flight with turbulence (and there seems to be a lot of them lately) I vow to myself that I won't put myself through it again. My partner has suggested a psychology session. I'm seriously thinking of it. I get into such a state.
Do the two pilots discuss together what to do in the event of seeing turbulence ahead? Do they say right John I don't like that ahead, what do you think Barry? Or is it more the plane or controllers tell them what to do?
I'll definitely look at those videos. I did try to find videos before but instead I found a horrific video of a flight over Italy of severe turbulence. Screams, baggage flying..the works. It was Easyjet. The flight with the worst turbulence ever was also easyjet. I don't think I've been the same since then. It didn't help that I saw the pilot going in to the cockpit and he looked about 12. Or that the cabin crew seemed to have 2 girls in training. The lead hostess had to tell them everything, including the safety demo. There was an air of unprofessionalism from the start and then the turbulence started and lasted pretty much the entire flight. I had to get a taxi home when we landed as I was so shaken I couldn't drive. I know it's crazy but I wouldn't get on easyjet again for love nor money.
I really do want to get better as I'd hate to be that person who doesn't bring her kids (if I have any) on holiday because of her own fears. And I certainly wouldn't want to pass this on as I suffer so much on a flight compared to everyone else!

What exactly is it that you're afraid of?

Is it a fear that the plane will break up? Not going to happen, don't worry.

Is it a fear of being thrown around the cabin? As we said earlier, if you sit with your seatbelt on then you minimise the risk.

99.99% of flights pass without any problems, so weigh up the probability of being involved in a serious incident. It is infinitesimal. Tiny. You face many more much greater hazards every day. You have more risk of falling down the stairs, crashing your car on the way to the airport, being hit by a bus, etc. etc.

lemmno

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

What exactly is it that you're afraid of?

Is it a fear that the plane will break up? Not going to happen, don't worry.

Is it a fear of being thrown around the cabin? As we said earlier, if you sit with your seatbelt on then you minimise the risk.

99.99% of flights pass without any problems, so weigh up the probability of being involved in a serious incident. It is infinitesimal. Tiny. You face many more much greater hazards every day. You have more risk of falling down the stairs, crashing your car on the way to the airport, being hit by a bus, etc. etc.

I guess I'm afraid of the plane falling out of the sky? That something (turbulence, lightening etc) will bring it down. I know the odds are minimal but it doesn't help my state of mind no matter how often I tell myself that. All I can think of when I get into that state is 'the plane is bouncing, is it going to nosedive?'

Gaoth Laidir

lemmno wrote: »

I guess I'm afraid of the plane falling out of the sky? That something (turbulence, lightening etc) will bring it down. I know the odds are minimal but it doesn't help my state of mind no matter how often I tell myself that. All I can think of when I get into that state is 'the plane is bouncing, is it going to nosedive?'

Well forget you telling yourself that. Let US tell you! A bouncing plane is fine. A bit uncomfortable, but trust me, it will not break up or nosedive. Y'ill be graaaand!

lemmno

One last Q..... Any airlines who's safety standards are questionable? Any that should not be operating? I know safety standards vary from continent to continent, but any I should really avoid?

oakshade

OP - I could have written your post. I'm exactly the same. I typically don't mind take off / landing but the minute we hit some turbulance I come out in a cold sweat. I usually spend the time before the flight poring over the turbulance forcast online (with symbols I don't even understand).

I don't know why, it's just the way I am. I don't know if it's a fear of technical failure or just the movement (I also hate rollercoasters). I'm flying transatlantic again in January and I'm already thinking about it.

Education might be the way to go. Hence the reason I lurk in this forum. I have also thought about hypnotherapy to see if it would help me to relax or cope in some way.

You're not alone!

lemmno

oakshade wrote: »

OP - I could have written your post. I'm exactly the same. I typically don't mind take off / landing but the minute we hit some turbulance I come out in a cold sweat. I usually spend the time before the flight poring over the turbulance forcast online (with symbols I don't even understand).

I don't know why, it's just the way I am. I don't know if it's a fear of technical failure or just the movement (I also hate rollercoasters). I'm flying transatlantic again in January and I'm already thinking about it.

Education might be the way to go. Hence the reason I lurk in this forum. I have also thought about hypnotherapy to see if it would help me to relax or cope in some way.

You're not alone!

Not a roller coaster fan here either! I've attempted to look at forecasts too but can't understand them. I've tried to persuade my other half to go on a cruise with me that leaves Southampton. It would mean getting to see far away countries but only be on a plane for an hour....that's how much turbulence terrifies me. Willing to pay an arm and a leg for a cruise to avoid it!

oakshade

lemmno wrote:

I've tried to persuade my other half to go on a cruise with me that leaves Southampton. It would mean getting to see far away countries but only be on a plane for an hour....

Off topic but the cruise is well worth it (except I flew to Miami ðŸ˜)

Lustrum

I would suggest getting yourself a 30min or 1hr trial flight at your local airfield if possible. What this will do (even if you don't have a go manipulating the controls yourself) is show you how much control the pilots has, and how calm and relaxed they are with wind, bumps etc. You'll also get to see how the instruments work - granted they'll be a lot more basic than any 737 or 320, but every airliner has standby instruments - and will be able to ask questions about anything you want while getting a practical answer whenever possible. I've brought 2 friends flying who had a fear, and it worked wonders for both of them

Negative_G

lemmno wrote: »

One last Q..... Any airlines who's safety standards are questionable? Any that should not be operating? I know safety standards vary from continent to continent, but any I should really avoid?

EASA (European Aviation Safety Authority) and the American FAA (Federal Aviation Authority) have very stringent requirements for all fare paying passenger airlines.

If you are doing mainly short haul flying in Europe and the occasional transatlantic, you are most certainly in safe hands.

Shannon757

Irish Steve wrote: »

The 737-800 is a long aircraft and as a result, the wing loading is higher than on the rest of the 737 family.

What's the wing loading like on a 739 as opposed to a 738?

j_mo

I can relate to the OP and oakshade on their sentiments unfortunately. It's really a horrible feeling to have, one that's born out of illogical and irrational thoughts (to me anyways). I used to be very bad and watch national geographic but over the past couple of years, I've tried looking at some of the in's and out's of flying to try and acclimatise myself to the facts of what's actually happening instead of what I think may be happening. Quick question ; myself and my family will be heading over to America next summer and I'm just wondering if someone (me) was a very bad passenger and was very hesitant, could you be asked to get off the plane or would that only apply to exceptional cases?

Irish Steve

Shannon757 wrote: »

What's the wing loading like on a 739 as opposed to a 738?

My bad, sorry, the 900 is slightly heavier again, so even more at risk. Apparently, the speed margin between Vref and tail strike speed is 10 Kts, so not much to play with, floating it for any length of time is bad news.

IamtheWalrus

I'm used to be pretty much the same as you OP. I am much better now though. I still don't like flying but I never dread it. I think what helped me was doing my own research on turbulence etc (like you're doing), and accepting the minuscule chance of anything bad happening. I drilled this in (it still doesn't help much when turbulence hits) but it's calmed me in the days leading up.

What I also came to realise is that my fear of flying was really down to my being an anxious person anyway. Flying only intensified it. Do you suffer from anxiety in life in general? That'd be my first port of call; why does turbulence affect you.. I think you know the plane won't nosedive, but maybe it's the fear of loss of control (trusting a pilot), being stuck in a stuffy tube in the air, the humiliation of panicking mid-air (made worse that others appear s calm), etc. All issues that I realised. Worth considering.

Zaph

lemmno wrote: »

I guess I'm afraid of the plane falling out of the sky? That something (turbulence, lightening etc) will bring it down. I know the odds are minimal but it doesn't help my state of mind no matter how often I tell myself that. All I can think of when I get into that state is 'the plane is bouncing, is it going to nosedive?'

Something that I saw on TV a couple of years ago might help put your mind at ease. While it feels like the plane is bouncing hundreds of feet up and down when it hits turbulence, the actual vertical movement of the plane is only about 6 feet, even in heavy turbulence. So you really aren't in any danger of falling out of the sky.

And coincidentally, I saw this earlier on the BBC News website - Why lightning strikes don't harm the planes we fly in.

smurfjed

4. If there's turbulence ahead, do some airlines just fly through it in order to arrive at their destination early/on time rather than fly around it, in order to make their bonus?

What bonus? The concept of paying a bonus for an on-time arrival would be against our safety management system as it might encourage people to rush things. I would therefore doubt that any airline is paying such a bonus.
Farside had a great cartoon about turbulence, but trust me, we don't do this:)

cml387

OP, you have a recognised phobia, called fear of flying.
Some people (me) are scared of heights, some are scared of spiders, the number 13 etc.

The problem many people have in your position is that the more questions you ask of people in the know, the more information you get, it ends up adding to the fear rather than taking it away.

Your partner is correct, you should get professional help if it is affecting you badly

Colser

I could have written your post OP as I'm the exact same and it's all to do with turbulence.I'm terrified when it's happening and can't enjoy when it's not because I'm anticipating it happening.
I continuously watch the cabin crew to try and work out if they're worried behind the smiles.I think people who continue reading/ sleeping during it are delusional as to what might happen.
I have no problem taking off/landing but I wish we could fly nearer the ground lol.

I find God during turbulence and promise that I will never fly again if I land safely this time.

This is the first year I've flown after 7 years grounded due to fear and just took the attitude that if my time is up then it's up.

I do find that a drink helps but I wouldn't have more than 2 in case I miss a sign of trouble (mad I know).
If the seatbelt light goes on I feel sick with nerves.I won't fly for more than 2.5 hours so will never get to USA ect.

I empathise with you and hope that someone invents a pill that will knock me out for the exact duration of the flight ..

Fair play to all flight staff as I really couldn't do your job.

smurfjed

I think people who continue reading/ sleeping during it are delusional as to what might happen.

Can I ask you what exactly you think is going to happen?

Colser

smurfjed wrote:

Can I ask you what exactly you think is going to happen?

The plane will fall down is the basic fear..I know it's irrational but accidents happen and it's thought of the drop down..

GBX

I'm in the same boat when it comes to flying ( :pac: ) ! Love to travel but get so worked up before & during flights.
Its strange because I have travelled far and wide but for some reason it is only in more recent times that my anxiousness and fear of turbulence has increased. I cannot recall any issues flying long haul where it made me worried but on more recent short haul flights it has seemed to be worse!

I try to ease my fears by recalling in my head that flying is extremely safe and I should be fine but it creeps back into my brain.

Only 2 weeks ago on DUB - BHX, the flight hit what was an almighty jolt. This may seem like an exaggeration but my friend who was in row 1 said that the crew even jumped into their seats to get strapped in! It passed after a couple of minutes and slowly eased but I still sh1t a brick and was glad to get back to terra firma.

Whats weird is that I love watching Air Crash investigation and am still fascinated by flight and the science etc of plane goes up, stays there and comes down again. My gf thinks im very weird to have an almost fear of flying but continue to watch these :pac::D

smurfjed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rak2HldVp9M

This video isn't meant to scare you, but rather to reassure you that aircraft won't break up inflight. In the test about it showed that the B777 wing withstood 1.5 times the maximum load that it was ever likely to encounter. So in turbulence there is no chance that the wing is going to break and fall off.
Even if for some obscure reason all engines stop, the aircraft will fly like a glider rather than fall out of the sky. There was a Canadian A330 aircraft that flew for 75 miles without engines and landed safely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat_Flight_236
Unfortunately, flying still isn't 100%, but it's quite close to it.

lemmno

I guess a lot has happened recently to add to my fears. And while it's still not 'common', in flying terms it seemed a lot in the last number of years. The Malaysian incidents, air Asia which from afar was reported did fall out of the sky, the Brazilian flight where they bloody ran out of fuel of all things...add to that the bad experience I had and it's just snowballed. I sometimes think I'd be better off sitting in the cockpit so I could see and hear it all! On a road you can see the potholes coming. But you can't in the back of a plane.
Anxiety definitely plays a part. I am the type to panic if someone is late. Most people would assume they were caught up, I'm the type to assume they've had an accident. I just get worse and worse.

IITYWYBMAD

I used to be in your exact position OP, and while I still am not a huge fan of flying, it doesn't bother me at all, even high turbulence. I fly about 80 times a year, so it was a case of either getting over it, or finding a new job!! 2 things really helped me:

1) I cannot recommend highly enough a set of noise cancelling ear phones and a good number of podcasts for each flight.

2) I had the pleasure of sitting beside 2 pilots on different flights, one on a Stobart air flight that was horrendously bouncy. Once I explained my anxiety, they were quick to point out why we had turbulence and basically how over-engineered the planes were to deal with a couple of bumps.

I still never sleep on flights, but I came back form the US on a long haul a couple of weeks ago, and was surprised when my partner had found the flight very bumpy. I hadn't noticed at all to be honest.

My advice, is to (try) to relax. Have a good set of ear phones, and always remember that you are far more likely to be killed in the car to the airport than the flight to Leeds.

faceman

Hi OP, I feel your pain. I fly alot and I'm not the world's greatest flyer but things have improved dramatically over the past 10 years for me. Here's a few resources that may help.

Fear of Flying Podcast: https://itunes.apple.com/ie/podcast/no-title/id656669143?mt=2
There are a couple of interesting ones in the series. There are 2 about turbulence which are a bit of an eye opener in terms of explaining just how normal and uneventful turbulence really is. As someone said earlier, its like driving over a country road or cobblestone road. There's also a great one where he interviews a commercial airline pilot who used to have a debilitating fear of flying until she decided to be a pilot.

Allen Carr's Eazy Way to Enjoy Flying: https://www.amazon.com/Allen-Carrs-Easy-Enjoy-Flying/dp/0140278370
I've read quite a few books on flying over the years and this one is by far the best. Its the one book that truly gave me piece of mind.

Other practical tips I can offer and echo what others have said.

Noise Cancelling headphones. Well worth the investment. Mine are a set of Bose that cost €350 but I never board a plane without them. (Like i said I fly alot)

Sit over the wing and sit by the window. You're over the plane's centre of gravity so its likely the smoothest part of the plane. (Unless you're in business class!!) The reason I recommend the window is so that when you feel anxious or nervous you can look out the window to give yourself assurance that everything is normal.

IamtheWalrus

lemmno wrote: »

I guess a lot has happened recently to add to my fears. And while it's still not 'common', in flying terms it seemed a lot in the last number of years. The Malaysian incidents, air Asia which from afar was reported did fall out of the sky, the Brazilian flight where they bloody ran out of fuel of all things...add to that the bad experience I had and it's just snowballed. I sometimes think I'd be better off sitting in the cockpit so I could see and hear it all! On a road you can see the potholes coming. But you can't in the back of a plane.
Anxiety definitely plays a part. I am the type to panic if someone is late. Most people would assume they were caught up, I'm the type to assume they've had an accident. I just get worse and worse.

We've found the root of the problem then. I suggest seeing a psychotherapist. I did and my crippling anxiety is now an exception rather than the norm.

deaddonkey15

Simtech do a course called Fly Fearless which may be of interest to you OP. You get to use one of their flight simulators and they cover things like anxiety management and turbulence amongst others.

Alternatively, you could try taking a flying lesson or two in a general aviation aircraft. You will inevitably bounce around a bit in those, but perhaps if you are sitting in the cockpit and controlling the plane and observing how insignificant the bumps are to the flight path and performance of the aircraft it might give you a different perspective.

smurfjed

http://www.independent.ie/life/travel/travel-talk/pilot-qa-what-causes-turbulence-and-is-it-dangerous-35016532.html

lemmno

It's just very strange. No matter how often I hear 'it's like a bump in the road' or 'its not dangerous' I still feel terrified. Like after watching a horror movie, you know the monster isn't real but it won't stop you from checking under the bed at night.

duskyjoe

Lemmno re read irish steves post again. He explains your concerns to a tee. Are you afraid of the actual flying bit or the enclosed in a cabin bit ? The two fears run parallel. I feel your pain as my late father was petrified of flying and couldn't travel unless utterly inebriated which really defeated the purpose. Irrespective of recent events, flying has never ever been safer.

Gamebred

Not a great flyer myself have accepted when my time is up its up dont worry anymore missed out on too many trips, my only real worry is a rogue pilot now a days tbh a suicidal person in control of the plane is a death sentence, Pilots are only human too as we seen with the German plane going to Barcelona.

lemmno

I've thought about it a bit more. And deep down the real fear is dying and not seeing my family again. And I guess when I'm in turbulence that's the closest I feel to that maybe happening.

As for the rogue pilot thing... yes, also a worry. But I'm hoping with new safety procedures and various checks that should also be a tiny risk. I also hope if they want to leave this world that they'll leave alone and not take others with them.

duskyjoe

lemmno wrote: »

I've thought about it a bit more. And deep down the real fear is dying and not seeing my family again. And I guess when I'm in turbulence that's the closest I feel to that maybe happening. .

Are you sure flying is the catalyst for your fears? Do you have the same thoughts when you cross the road as a pedestrian?

lemmno

duskyjoe wrote: »

Are you sure flying is the catalyst for your fears? Do you have the same thoughts when you cross the road as a pedestrian?

No I don't. I'm in control when I'm a pedestrian though.

faceman

lemmno wrote: »

No I don't. I'm in control when I'm a pedestrian though.

In Allen Carr's book on flying he shows results of a very interesting survey he conducted on people and the fear with different modes of transport. Obviously flying had the highest fear association despite being the undoubtedly the safest mode of transport. Interestingly enough there was a extremely high trust in railways are a mode of transport but he made great points that you've same lack of control on a train than you do on a plane.

In summary I'm less fearful of flying but have a new fear of trains!

duskyjoe

Hmm we are getting into the realm here is it really a fear of flying or claustrophobia. I have a pal whose very successful in business but when he goes on a plane the man goes into melt down. He feigned flying as his primary fear re crashes etc but in reality the man has lost control when the door closes and he's told buckle up. I asked him what about the door on a bus closing.....he says he can get off at anytime. Claustrophobia is a major problem with flying folk. It's very easy to tell someone to snap out of it but in reality it's just like telling someone in the top stand of a football stadium afraid of heights to pull them selves together. Back to the OP..... I feel sorry for you whatever your fear is. All I can say is flying in the western world has never been safer re technology, crew standards requirements, training and ability. Good luck and hopefully the posts here may have appeased your mind

lemmno

duskyjoe wrote: »

Hmm we are getting into the realm here is it really a fear of flying or claustrophobia. I have a pal whose very successful in business but when he goes on a plane the man goes into melt down. He feigned flying as his primary fear re crashes etc but in reality the man has lost control when the door closes and he's told buckle up. I asked him what about the door on a bus closing.....he says he can get off at anytime. Claustrophobia is a major problem with flying folk. It's very easy to tell someone to snap out of it but in reality it's just like telling someone in the top stand of a football stadium afraid of heights to pull them selves together. Back to the OP..... I feel sorry for you whatever your fear is. All I can say is flying in the western world has never been safer re technology, crew standards requirements, training and ability. Good luck and hopefully the posts here may have appeased your mind

Although I can't fully explain why I'm afraid I do know it's not the claustrophobic element as I'm absolutely fine with the door closing and with flying itself. The fear only kicks in with turbulence. I'm perfectly happy on a turbulence free flight but one bump and I'm gone.

lemmno

faceman wrote: »

In Allen Carr's book on flying he shows results of a very interesting survey he conducted on people and the fear with different modes of transport. Obviously flying had the highest fear association despite being the undoubtedly the safest mode of transport. Interestingly enough there was a extremely high trust in railways are a mode of transport but he made great points that you've same lack of control on a train than you do on a plane.

In summary I'm less fearful of flying but have a new fear of trains!

I guess in my mind I'm thinking there's more chance of surviving a train crash, even though there's more chance of it crashing. If a plane crashes to the ground you're gone, unless a miracle happens.

duskyjoe

Op, I don't know if we are in the right forum now and the thread is going around in circles now. Basically your afraid of dying and turbulence is your biggest threat.......go back to smurfs post and see how much wings can bend before they snap. 99.9% of flight crews do not fly into know area of severe forecast turbulence....the point 0.01% caters for the odd clown. Turbulence is a fact of flying and you can't get away from it from tiny bumps to moderate jolts.....is the safety of the aircraft re structural failure at pearl transiting these areas? No

The thread is now doing loop the loops as in going round in circles

Negative_G

lemmno wrote: »

I guess in my mind I'm thinking there's more chance of surviving a train crash, even though there's more chance of it crashing. If a plane crashes to the ground you're gone, unless a miracle happens.

Aviation is probably the most safety driven transport industry.

There is so much redundancy in every aspect of a flight.

lemmno

duskyjoe wrote: »

Op, I don't know if we are in the right forum now and the thread is going around in circles now. Basically your afraid of dying and turbulence is your biggest threat.......go back to smurfs post and see how much wings can bend before they snap. 99.9% of flight crews do not fly into know area of severe forecast turbulence....the point 0.01% caters for the odd clown. Turbulence is a fact of flying and you can't get away from it from tiny bumps to moderate jolts.....is the safety of the aircraft re structural failure at pearl transiting these areas? No

The thread is now doing loop the loops as in going round in circles

Agreed.But I'm just answering those who have been kind enough to reply to my OP, or who have taken the time to ask me more in relation to my fear in the hope of finding the root cause of my fear so that they can point me in the correct direction.

Believe me I've looked at every single reply and taken everything on board and have spent hours researching all that has been suggested above to great detail. The posters are asking why, how, and I'm answering them. Yes it may seem like it's going in circles to others, but fears aren't rational at times and it has actually helped me to do 'loop the loops' on this issue. I wanted to know about the technical side and I got that plus a lot more.

Thanks once again for all your replies, you've all certainly given me a lot of food for thought. I've decided the Simtech course as mentioned and a trip to a psychotherapist could be beneficial.

Those who can just take fact as fact are very lucky, others like myself sometimes need a bit more help.

Poochie05

lemmno, I strongly recommend you check out this course: http://www.flyfearless.ie/

It's worth every penny. They cover all the aspects you have brought up here and help you work through ways to cope. They are even on hand at the end of the phone before your flight if you need them.
Like you, I could feel the problem building and felt I needed to tackle it before it became something that would prevent me from travelling. The course gives you all the information you need, no question is stupid. As a previously nervous flyer, while I'll never be completely chilled and relaxed on a plane, it has prevented things getting so bad that I wouldn't fly.
You'd be surprised how many people are like you and I've found once I mention to people I did this course, it's amazing the amount of people who admit that they're nervous flyers too. One of the things brought up in the course is that it is very common for women in their 30s-40s to develop this fear as they have kids and become more aware of their vulnerability.
I also recommend reading Alan Carr's book. His main message: 'Let the pilot fly the plane' was my mantra on a recent long haul flight!

lemmno

Poochie05 wrote: »

lemmno, I strongly recommend you check out this course: http://www.flyfearless.ie/

It's worth every penny. They cover all the aspects you have brought up here and help you work through ways to cope. They are even on hand at the end of the phone before your flight if you need them.
Like you, I could feel the problem building and felt I needed to tackle it before it became something that would prevent me from travelling. The course gives you all the information you need, no question is stupid. As a previously nervous flyer, while I'll never be completely chilled and relaxed on a plane, it has prevented things getting so bad that I wouldn't fly.
You'd be surprised how many people are like you and I've found once I mention to people I did this course, it's amazing the amount of people who admit that they're nervous flyers too. One of the things brought up in the course is that it is very common for women in their 30s-40s to develop this fear as they have kids and become more aware of their vulnerability.
I also recommend reading Alan Carr's book. His main message: 'Let the pilot fly the plane' was my mantra on a recent long haul flight!

Thanks!
Looked up that course. Tad off putting though that it only has two Google reviews and that one of them is quite blatantly from the owner.