One of the World's Top Bankers warns about the now staggering wealth inequalities.

Skommando

It must be getting shaky when one of the elites is issuing warnings about inequality :

Thing is, are the real controllers of politicians (large business interests) going to take any notice or does it have to get worse ?

Real wages for ordinary people are now lower than they were 10 years ago. That hasn't happened since the 1850's.

Corporations profits however are growing larger than ever.

And before anyone starts and try's to divert the thread, I'm neither left or right wing, and I'm pro business and pro profit with a fair wage paid to those who make that profit possible, so they can raise a family and have the basic security of their own home.

The Bank of England Governor Mark Carney has warned that people will turn their backs on free and open markets unless something is done to help those left behind by the financial crisis.
In a speech, he said: "Globalisation is associated with low wages, insecure employment, stateless corporations and striking inequalities."
In many advanced economies there are "staggering wealth inequalities," he added . . .

Mr Carney, giving the Roscoe Lecture at Liverpool John Moores University, spoke of the need for wealth distribution and putting individuals back in control.
He cited Prime Minister Theresa May's criticism of "stateless corporations" who paid little tax and had little responsibility to local communities.
The governor said: "Redistribution and fairness also mean turning back the tide of stateless corporations."
"As the prime minister recently stressed, companies must be rooted and pay tax somewhere.
"Businesses operating across borders have responsibilities," he added . . .

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38210169

Fleawuss

A straw in the wind. Is there a politician with the balls to heed it and rebuild the centre ground? And who isn't a crypto fascist or a Marxist clown?

Arcade_Tryer

Fleawuss wrote: »

A straw in the wind. Is there a politician with the balls to heed it and rebuild the centre ground? And who isn't a crypto fascist or a Marxist clown?

Politicians? Most people support and perpetuate these 'staggering wealth inequalities'. For example, just look at public and political opinion in Ireland on property and inheritance tax.

hmmm

We have growing inequality because the jobs that used to be there for the lower educated workers are disappearing, while wealth is increasingly concentrated in the hands of the well educated. It's a natural progression, there's nothing particularly sinister about it.

The question is what do you do to improve the lot of the lower educated who want to work. Most people want a job, not a handout - and they despise those who look for handouts. The Trump election was won by a candidate who proposed to cut social welfare spending, and yet was voted into power by a group of people who largely depended on welfare - why? Because they want to work, and don't see themselves as long term welfare recipients.

I think the leftwing parties, and the occasional gob****e in FG & FF are missing the above point - they are falling over themselves to hand out goodies to the welfare class who don't want to work, while assuming that this will keep the people who don't want to be on welfare (or in a lower paid job) happy.

We need to figure out a way to create good jobs in a world that doesn't rely on low skilled labour. Answers on a postcard if you know how.

Skommando

hmmm wrote: »

We have growing inequality because the jobs that used to be there for the lower educated workers are disappearing, while wealth is increasingly concentrated in the hands of the well educated. It's a natural progression

Actually I disagree, it's the jobs that were once better paid, from retail manager, to teacher, to police officer, to solicitor, to accountant, to software developer, but are now paid little if any more than once lower paid jobs, and now done more for 'prestige' / self fulfilment reasons (for want of a better word) rather than any extra actual financial reward where the real fall in wages can be seen. I know a lot of these professions are now paid little more than the people working in shops and retail outlets serving them. That has a knock on effect of less money being available for circulation in local economies, but much better profits for some corporations.

hmmm wrote: »

We need to figure out a way to create good jobs in a world that doesn't rely on low skilled labour.

We've a very highly educated young workforce, skills are not a problem, nor is the willingness to work in 'low skill jobs' as you like to call them, as long as people can raise a family on them, and have some living security. That's a legitimate expectation if people want society to actually function.
Functioning societies are in the interests of large corporations and their profits. Who else is going to buy all the stuff they make and advertise 24/7 that we don't actually need ?

Henry Ford famously paid his factory workers and professionals well over the going rates for good reason, and his competitors then had to to likewise, and said workers then were able to afford to buy motor cars in their droves. It was a win - win for everyone. Money that circulates and filters down benefits everyone. Money continually over concentrated in fewer and fewer hands doesn't.

hmmm

Skommando wrote: »

it's the jobs that were once better paid, from retail manager, to teacher, to police officer, to solicitor, to accountant, to software developer, but are now paid little if any more than once lower paid jobs, and now done more for 'prestige' / self fulfilment reasons (for want of a better word) rather than any extra actual financial reward where the real fall in wages can be seen. I know a lot of these professions are now paid little more than the people working in shops and retail outlets serving them.

Complete nonsense.

Roger Mellie Man on the Telly

How much does a disposable barbecue cost?

Skommando

hmmm wrote: »

Complete nonsense.

In other words you've no argument worth making.

The fact remains that in real terms all wages are lower.

What are you actually afraid of ? that ordinary people, which includes professionals, might be paid more and have a better standard of living and more secure homes ?

ZeroThreat

hmmm wrote: »

Complete nonsense.

either that, or I'm doing exams with an accounting body for no reason whatsoever,

ZeroThreat

Skommando wrote: »

In other words you've no argument worth making.

The fact remains that in real terms all wages are lower.

What are you actually afraid of ? that ordinary people, which includes professionals, might be paid more and have a better standard of living and more secure homes ?

I think the idea is over time to winnow & eliminate the 'middle class' so the folk who are actually 'rich' can feel even more extra elite when they look at the wide gulf between themselves & the other 99.9% uneducated & unskilled proletariat.

They don't have to fear another rung just below them of well educated or aspiring people.

Phoebas

I remember back before 'elite' was dirty word and to be in the top 1% of something was an aspiration.

Simpler times.

Dr Crayfish

The only way we can stop inequality and global warming and all of the world's ills is by checking in to North Dakota on Facebook. Or something.

Oodoov

Things are going to get worse. Brexit, Trump, look what is happening in Italy, France could vote in Le Pen i see the same people that laughed at the chances of Trump being president are at it again with her. The race to the bottom has gone into overdrive since 2008 and shows no sign of slowing down. The jobs the traditional working classes used to do are going, replaced by machines. It's happening in banks, supermarkets, factories, soon enough we will have self driving taxis, buses, trucks etc.. The farming and fishing sectors paying peanuts to people from third world countries happy to get paid a pittance for slaving away hours on end.

It's all going to end in tears if the establishment don't realise the present path is broken.

Ferrari3600

Skommando wrote: »

Actually I disagree, it's the jobs that were once better paid, from retail manager, to teacher, to police officer, to solicitor, to accountant, to software developer, but are now paid little if any more than once lower paid jobs, and now done more for 'prestige' / self fulfilment reasons (for want of a better word) rather than any extra actual financial reward where the real fall in wages can be seen. I know a lot of these professions are now paid little more than the people working in shops and retail outlets serving them. That has a knock on effect of less money being available for circulation in local economies, but much better profits for some corporations.

Totally agree. Particularly as regards the law and accountancy. Both professions are in decline due to automation and due to their institutes letting too many qualify. Hundreds of young solicitors and accountants emigrated during the crash - most have not come back. I personally know solicitors with good experience that work as journalists, and accountants that are (barely) scraping a living together from bits and bobs.

Skommando

Oodoov wrote: »

It's all going to end in tears if the establishment don't realise the present path is broken.

That part of your post exactly the message the Govenor of the Bank of England no less is trying to get across.
And he is certainly not anti-establishment, nor am I.

But the question is are the people who should be listening, listening ? Or is the greed and lust for power all consuming ?

I don't like to believe it is. Let's hope they start listening soon before more Tumps get elected.

Wanderer78

old news really, many have been writing about this for years now, and it may not be stoppable. some call the inequality issues in parts of america as 'runaway inequality'. we have created extremely complex economic and financial systems that are not fit for purpose, and if are allowed to continue, unchanged, will probably lead to an absolute collapse of our socioeconomic and environmental systems, and ultimately the demise of the human race.

steddyeddy

Since an early age I knew it was wrong that children from better backgrounds went to better schools. On lines with gender inequality.

ChikiChiki

Most organisations are going through massive change at the minute as recommended by various consultancy bodies (big 4 cough). The introduction of technological improvements and automation is significantly lowering FTE requirements where savings then pass on favourably to the balance sheets.

Can't see these increased profits being transferred back to the average joe. Think many people will get caught out with the automation and now more than ever it's important to keep upskilling.

Oodoov

Skommando wrote: »

That part of your post exactly the message the Govenor of the Bank of England no less is trying to get across.
And he is certainly not anti-establishment, nor am I.

But the question is are the people who should be listening, listening ? Or is the greed and lust for power all consuming ?

I don't like to believe it is. Let's hope they start listening soon before more Tumps get elected.

As we speak the establishment are putting into place a system to get a second referendum on Brexit and i see the beginnings of a desperate attempt in the US to have the election results overturned. Least we forget our own little slap down in the form of Nice and Lisbon 2. All around us the signs are that the democratic will pf the people is being ignored.

That is going to end very badly indeed and i see zero signs of the establishment amending their ways.

Skommando

Wanderer78 wrote: »

old news really, many have been writing about this for years now, and it may not be stoppable. some call the inequality issues in parts of america as 'runaway inequality'. we have created extremely complex economic and financial systems that are not fit for purpose, and if are allowed to continue, unchanged, will probably lead to an absolute collapse of our socioeconomic and environmental systems

What is news is someone from so high in the establishment publicly and openly warning the rest about it. And he's not talking about first world vs third world, he's talking about first world western society. He realises it's in his interests and the mega corporations to do something about it. Social instability is not in their interest, and only in the interests of the extremists and headers like Trump.

Francie Barrett

hmmm wrote: »

I think the leftwing parties, and the occasional gob****e in FG & FF are missing the above point - they are falling over themselves to hand out goodies to the welfare class who don't want to work, while assuming that this will keep the people who don't want to be on welfare (or in a lower paid job) happy.

We need to figure out a way to create good jobs in a world that doesn't rely on low skilled labour. Answers on a postcard if you know how.

I don't think Carney is talking about this at all.

He is more likely attacking the ultra wealthy. By this, I mean people who have a net worth of at least $10 million. People who don't have to work for a living and can survive off their assets. Because of QE and money printing, these are the people have seen their assets inflated and their wealth increased. Unfortunately, these people also pay a fraction of the tax that you or I pay as a proportion of their income. When you have this much money, it's very easy to hire a tax accountant and jet around the world to avoid paying any, or almost no tax. This is why the burden of taxation falls far too heavily upon PAYE workers on the higher tax bands.

How is it just that an ordinary Joe Soap pays 50% tax on the average industrial wage when the likes of McManus, O'Brien, Desmond, U2, etc pay no tax on millions of income? It's amazing just how little press that this gets. I suppose when you own the press, you aren't going to want to highlight facts like this.

Francie Barrett

Skommando wrote: »

Social instability is not in their interest, and only in the interests of the extremists and headers like Trump.

The mad thing is Trump said he will cut corporation tax and abolish estate tax. Talk about draining the swamp!?

FortySeven

Google Nick Hanauer.

Skommando

Francie Barrett wrote: »

The mad thing is Trump said he will cut corporation tax and abolish estate tax. Talk about draining the swamp!?

Indeed, but even though a lot of ordinary american's know trump is a terrible alternative, they voted for him in protest, because he was the only non puppet candidate made available to them by the establishment, thinking of course that it was safe to do so, because they thought they could use the media to ensure that he could never win. That stunt backfired on the establishment big time, but have they learned the lessons ?

Wanderer78

Skommando wrote: »

What is news is someone from so high in the establishment publicly and openly warning the rest about it. And he's not talking about first world vs third world, he's talking about first world western society. He realises it's in his interests and the mega corporations to do something about it. Social instability is not in their interest, and only in the interests of the extremists and headers like Trump.

thats fair enough i guess but ive been following the work of many for some time that have been screaming about this for years, some decades. some of these people have been operating at high levels in our financial and political systems for many years now. mark carney is a very recognisable person though so hopefully this helps in forcing change. a lot of money is made from instability and more power and control can be achieved by the higher tiers of society.

CaptainR

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Most organisations are going through massive change at the minute as recommended by various consultancy bodies (big 4 cough). The introduction of technological improvements and automation is significantly lowering FTE requirements where savings then pass on favourably to the balance sheets.

Can't see these increased profits being transferred back to the average joe. Think many people will get caught out with the automation and now more than ever it's important to keep upskilling.

I agree. With technology improving rapidly and more things becoming automated we will see a big problem in the next 15 years. Every automated till and lodgement machine is putting someone out of a job, it might be more efficient to use one in Tesco or the bank when theres a queue but as the tech improves more jobs will become obsolete.

Its a bit like the legend of John Henry's Hammer where a railroad worker is replaced with a steam drill and he talks about how the steam drill has no family to feed but he does.

Skommando

CaptainR wrote: »

I agree. With technology improving rapidly and more things becoming automated we will see a big problem in the next 15 years. Every automated till and lodgement machine is putting someone out of a job, it might be more efficient to use one in Tesco or the bank when theres a queue but as the tech improves more jobs will become obsolete.

Its a bit like the legend of John Henry's Hammer where a railroad worker is replaced with a steam drill and he talks about how the steam drill has no family to feed but he does.

The usual counter spin is new technology jobs will replace the old ones lost, but that's not necessarily so, and even if they are, it's usually thousands of miles away.
Just look at the city of Detroit as a prime example, now ripe to be exploited by headers like Trump, and the extreme left / right depending on what country it's happening in.

Wanderer78

CaptainR wrote: »

I agree. With technology improving rapidly and more things becoming automated we will see a big problem in the next 15 years. Every automated till and lodgement machine is putting someone out of a job, it might be more efficient to use one in Tesco or the bank when theres a queue but as the tech improves more jobs will become obsolete.

Its a bit like the legend of John Henry's Hammer where a railroad worker is replaced with a steam drill and he talks about how the steam drill has no family to feed but he does.

highly debatable. deirdre mccloskey believes technology improves the lives of most but im not convinced myself. maybe i just need to read more into her work.

ChikiChiki

Wanderer78 wrote: »

highly debatable. deirdre mccloskey believes technology improves the lives of most but im not convinced myself. maybe i just need to read more into her work.

I suppose we are talking about the likes of the future office. Why do all that data entry when there's a piece of code that can do it at a fraction of the cost and 10 times more efficiently.

That puts a couple of people out of work and saves company a lot of money they on their annual wage bill. Will they feel the benefit from it as they are now unemployed and unskilled? Not a hope in hell.

Wanderer78

ChikiChiki wrote: »

I suppose we are talking about the likes of the future office. Why do all that data entry when there's a piece of code that can do it at a fraction of the cost and 10 times more efficiently.

That puts a couple of people out of work and saves company a lot of money they on their annual wage bill. Will they feel the benefit from it as they are now unemployed and unskilled? Not a hope in hell.

it would be ideal if we could design economic and financial systems that allow for these improvements in technology but the financial gains are shared more equally in society. i think the want from the majority of society is there for this but is this actually possible? there are some great ideas out there in trying to create these kind of systems but these ideas are struggling to make it to the actual action stage.

ZeroThreat

Seems with all this technology replacing workers, western society in general will have to reduce their populations to a (small) fraction of what it is today. No point in having masses of humanity with nothing to do and no purpose to exist.

Wanderer78

ZeroThreat wrote:

Seems with all this technology replacing workers, western society in general will have to reduce their populations to a (small) fraction of what it is today. No point in having masses of humanity with nothing to do and no purpose to exist.

Why would people have nothing to do and no purpose to exist?

The Wolverine

You see there's the assumption from some here that it's just what's referred to as low or non skilled who'll suffer from automation when in fact his comments have said he expects the middle classes to be decimated too for example he mentioned how he expects jobs in accountancy to be almost wiped out through hardware and software advances and he's right.

Even in IT with technology advances a company that has 100 IT staff today might only need 20-30 of those staff in 10 years time due to hardware and software advances.

It's not just the poor cabbies, bus drivers, etc who'll be out of a job it will be in fact as many of the third level degree with a master's on top too

The problem is how can you just say "well upskill" to half of the working population which I think was the number he expects to be out of a job?

This universal basic income isn't gonna work as say your country has a 2 million workforce havled, how can you expect that 1 million workers to carry the tax burden of that plus every other service.

This is looking like a waaaay bigger problem that the industrial revolution, at least then it was mostly only the men who worked and there was lots and lots of other manual jobs not taken by tech. Now we face men and women competing for work so obviously way more people needing work and also tech taking a lot of stuff.

Grayson

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Why would people have nothing to do and no purpose to exist?

There's a weird assumption that people have always had jobs and careers. Studies of tribal societies in jungles have found that generally after food gathering occurs they all just play games and keep active that way.

The idea that we need a job to feel good about ourselves is a very recent invention. It's referred to as the protestant work ethic. They tied work to moral well being. They saw not working as being sinful. It's one of the reasons work houses were invented. It was supposed to rehabilitate the sinful through hard labour.

Ferrari3600

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Most organisations are going through massive change at the minute as recommended by various consultancy bodies (big 4 cough). The introduction of technological improvements and automation is significantly lowering FTE requirements where savings then pass on favourably to the balance sheets.

Can't see these increased profits being transferred back to the average joe. Think many people will get caught out with the automation and now more than ever it's important to keep upskilling.

Upskilling to what?

Pulsating Star

I believe the issue of large scale tax avoidance has to be addressed at a G Summit level, starting at the G8 leveland eventually reaching G20.
Individual countries are being played off against each other by these stateless corporations so needs an international response. This can only be achieved if all are are to act as one and see the long term gain of seeing corporate revenue returning to help fund their fiscal programmes. It will take many voices like the governor of the Bank of England to overcome the short tern outlook at political level. I think it's going to take quite a few more Trump events.

Phoebas

Francie Barrett wrote: »

I don't think Carney is talking about this at all.

He is more likely attacking the ultra wealthy. By this, I mean people who have a net worth of at least $10 million.

I thought he was pretty clear that he was talking about large corporations, rather than individuals. He specifically says "The thrifty saver and the rich asset holder are often one and the same"

I think its a mistake to start targetting individuals who are to 'blame'; that just breeds jealousy and kneejerk responses, because anyone can insert their own villain into that piece (Denis O'Brien, the welfare class, U2!). Brexit and Trump aren't going to deal with wealth inequalities caused by globalisation, and Carney certainly isn't against globalisation.

If we agree with what Carney said, and identify 'stateless corporations' as the problem, then anti-globalisation doesn't solve that problem. You need better globalisation - policy responses like the CCCTB (for example) - you can agree or disagree with individual policies, but I think its pretty clear that Brexit and Trump make actual responses that can have a positive effect much less likely.

Oodoov

It's only now when the middle classes are being dragged down to the level of the less unfortunate that this is now becoming an issue. They had better get used to it the asset stripping and hunger of the establishment knows no bounds.

Wanderer78

Oodoov wrote:

It's only now when the middle classes are being dragged down to the level of the less unfortunate that this is now becoming an issue. They had better get used to it the asset stripping and hunger of the establishment knows no bounds.

Thankfully people are starting to stand up and revolt, it's up to us all to force change, but it won't be easy

KyussBeeshop

hmmm wrote: »

We have growing inequality because the jobs that used to be there for the lower educated workers are disappearing, while wealth is increasingly concentrated in the hands of the well educated. It's a natural progression, there's nothing particularly sinister about it.

The question is what do you do to improve the lot of the lower educated who want to work. Most people want a job, not a handout - and they despise those who look for handouts. The Trump election was won by a candidate who proposed to cut social welfare spending, and yet was voted into power by a group of people who largely depended on welfare - why? Because they want to work, and don't see themselves as long term welfare recipients.

I think the leftwing parties, and the occasional gob****e in FG & FF are missing the above point - they are falling over themselves to hand out goodies to the welfare class who don't want to work, while assuming that this will keep the people who don't want to be on welfare (or in a lower paid job) happy.

We need to figure out a way to create good jobs in a world that doesn't rely on low skilled labour. Answers on a postcard if you know how.

It's been parties on the left which have pushed for the solution to this a long time now: A Job Guarantee, in the style of government-created jobs, like a turbocharged/permanent New Deal or Marshall Plan style program.

It's been done successfully many times, by many countries before in the past, in various different styles throughout modern history - but it's vehemently opposed by pretty much any group that desires growing inequality, because it would give government all the power it needs to prevent the entire economy being distorted for the benefit of a few - so it's only ever been implemented temporarily, never permanently fixed in place like a Job Guarantee.

The Old Right/Left - the NeoLiberals - are incredibly hostile to this, and have done everything they can to keep it muted politically, to stop it entering the mainstream - but now things like Trump and Brexit have broken the NeoLiberal order, with Trump representing the Right-Wing alternative - Trump has now provided an opening for the Left-Wing alternative though, and this alternative is going to include New Deal style programs, maybe even the full Job Guarantee.

mahoganygas

CaptainR wrote:

Its a bit like the legend of John Henry's Hammer where a railroad worker is replaced with a steam drill and he talks about how the steam drill has no family to feed but he does.

It's a lovely analogy but it's lacking in details.

Who designs the steam drill? Who mines the ore and smelts the steel? Who constructs the drill and who sells it to railroad companies around the world? How many rivets can the drill work? How many can the railroad worker?
Maybe the worker could get a job in the new railroad company down the road. They are much more efficient and can afford to train their workers on how to use the new steam drill.

Oodoov wrote:

It's only now when the middle classes are being dragged down to the level of the less unfortunate that this is now becoming an issue. They had better get used to it the asset stripping and hunger of the establishment knows no bounds.

Wanderer78 wrote:

Thankfully people are starting to stand up and revolt, it's up to us all to force change, but it won't be easy

Plenty of rhetoric here.
If this is true, then why is union membership continually declining?

Oodoov

mahoganygas wrote: »

It's a lovely analogy but it's lacking in details.

Who designs the steam drill? Who mines the ore and smelts the steel? Who constructs the drill and who sells it to railroad companies around the world? How many rivets can the drill work? How many can the railroad worker?
Maybe the worker could get a job in the new railroad company down the road. They are much more efficient and can afford to train their workers on how to use the new steam drill.





Plenty of rhetoric here.
If this is true, then why is union membership continually declining?

The middle classes don't join unions unless they are in the PS. The working classes mostly don't trust unions and who could blame them when we see the way they have acted the last 20 odd years. It's not rhetoric. Already we see a situation where almost all households have two people working and some have two or three jobs each. This is a full blown race to the bottom where society doesnt matter just economy.

People getting in their cars at 6:30 in the morning for a two hour commute to work and the same again that evening isnt living, it's barely eeking out an existence. It's only heading one way and it's not good.

FTA69

KyussBeeshop wrote: »

It's been parties on the left which have pushed for the solution to this a long time now: A Job Guarantee, in the style of government-created jobs, like a turbocharged/permanent New Deal or Marshall Plan style program.

It's been done successfully many times, by many countries before in the past, in various different styles throughout modern history - but it's vehemently opposed by pretty much any group that desires growing inequality, because it would give government all the power it needs to prevent the entire economy being distorted for the benefit of a few - so it's only ever been implemented temporarily, never permanently fixed in place like a Job Guarantee.

The Old Right/Left - the NeoLiberals - are incredibly hostile to this, and have done everything they can to keep it muted politically, to stop it entering the mainstream - but now things like Trump and Brexit have broken the NeoLiberal order, with Trump representing the Right-Wing alternative - Trump has now provided an opening for the Left-Wing alternative though, and this alternative is going to include New Deal style programs, maybe even the full Job Guarantee.

I agree with much of what you're saying but the only problem with neo-Keynesiam is that is aims to fund increased consumption which is the biggest engine behind environmental destruction. The whole climate change is a ticking time bomb that a lot of "QE for the people" proponents often tend to ignore. Some advocate investing in 'green jobs' but I'm unsure as to what that would entail.

FTA69

Grayson wrote: »

There's a weird assumption that people have always had jobs and careers. Studies of tribal societies in jungles have found that generally after food gathering occurs they all just play games and keep active that way.

The idea that we need a job to feel good about ourselves is a very recent invention. It's referred to as the protestant work ethic. They tied work to moral well being. They saw not working as being sinful. It's one of the reasons work houses were invented. It was supposed to rehabilitate the sinful through hard labour.

Exactly. I think in future there needs to be a distinction between 'work' and 'labour'. There is huge amounts of socially useful 'work' that can be done that isn't necessarily commercial or to be done for profit. The Ancient Greeks called this kind of stuff 'praxis' and it involved community work, visiting the elderly, working with kids and the like - basically volunteering as we know it today.

Many of the jobs we are doing now are bullsh*t for want of a better word, low paid, terrible conditions, insecure and at risk of automation. The current economic model we have is unsustainable in the long run and if we don't come up with an alternative things like Trump and the rest are only the tip of the iceberg. We risk an increasingly authoritarian and divided society when the lower portion of our society are criminalised or infantilised, the middle shrinks dramatically and a portion at the top gate themselves off from the rest.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/223416.The_Right_to_Useful_Unemployment_and_Its_Professional_Enemies

Ivan Illich

KyussBeeshop

FTA69 wrote: »

I agree with much of what you're saying but the only problem with neo-Keynesiam is that is aims to fund increased consumption which is the biggest engine behind environmental destruction. The whole climate change is a ticking time bomb that a lot of "QE for the people" proponents often tend to ignore. Some advocate investing in 'green jobs' but I'm unsure as to what that would entail.

I don't think that's true - the biggest advocates of the Job Guarantee, would also (separately) advocate focusing the jobs on e.g. a Marshall Plan (or Manhattan project) style program, for completely overhauling western countries infrastructure (not 'green jobs' - large scale infrastructure overhaul), to reduce climate change emissions, and to do massive R&D programs for accelerating technological development in areas that will help this.

This alone shows that it is absurd to have so many people unemployed around the world, when massive amounts of work/jobs need to be created, to work on dealing with climate change - and to do this yesterday (as we'll already be starting too late, to avoid negative effects of climate change in the future).

An added minor point, is that the Job Guarantee advocates tend to be Post-Keynesian - which is a completely different branch of Keynes views, than what people consider 'Keynesian' today.

Yourself isit

Housing in Ireland lies at the heart of the insecurity of the new middle classes. The indo had a piece today about a couple on 60k getting kicked out of their rental and unable to afford a house.

Oodoov

FTA69 wrote: »

Exactly. I think in future there needs to be a distinction between 'work' and 'labour'. There is huge amounts of socially useful 'work' that can be done that isn't necessarily commercial or to be done for profit. The Ancient Greeks called this kind of stuff 'praxis' and it involved community work, visiting the elderly, working with kids and the like - basically volunteering as we know it today.

Many of the jobs we are doing now are bullsh*t for want of a better word, low paid, terrible conditions, insecure and at risk of automation. The current economic model we have is unsustainable in the long run and if we don't come up with an alternative things like Trump and the rest are only the tip of the iceberg. We risk an increasingly authoritarian and divided society when the lower portion of our society are criminalised or infantilised, the middle shrinks dramatically and a portion at the top gate themselves off from the rest.

Trump is only the beginning. I'd say 90% of those that voted for him don't even like the guy and don't expect things to change much. They did it out of desperation and a fcuk you to the establishment for enriching themselves whilst they and their families struggle more with every passing year. Same goes for Brexit another fcuk you to the top 1%.

Society as a whole had a complete meltdown with the 2008 banking collapse and it was a fantastic chance to amend and try and build a better way forward. In fact things have gotten much worse and no lessons have been learned worldwide not just in Ireland and the next crash is going to be even worse. Even today in Ireland we borrow millions per day to keep the countries head above water, our health service is in turmoil as one example and yet we see fit to give already well paid civil servants pay rises and social welfare applicants xmas bonus's. I mean seriously wtf??

KyussBeeshop

FTA69 wrote: »

Exactly. I think in future there needs to be a distinction between 'work' and 'labour'. There is huge amounts of socially useful 'work' that can be done that isn't necessarily commercial or to be done for profit. The Ancient Greeks called this kind of stuff 'praxis' and it involved community work, visiting the elderly, working with kids and the like - basically volunteering as we know it today.

Many of the jobs we are doing now are bullsh*t for want of a better word, low paid, terrible conditions, insecure and at risk of automation. The current economic model we have is unsustainable in the long run and if we don't come up with an alternative things like Trump and the rest are only the tip of the iceberg. We risk an increasingly authoritarian and divided society when the lower portion of our society are criminalised or infantilised, the middle shrinks dramatically and a portion at the top gate themselves off from the rest.

I agree with you a lot on socially useful work there, and you can actually pay people to do all of this socially useful work, as part of the Job Guarantee too - a lot of big advocates of the JG, like Bill Mitchell, very frequently cite the things you do there, as things that can be a part of the program.

Wanderer78

Oodoov wrote:

Society as a whole had a complete meltdown with the 2008 banking collapse and it was a fantastic chance to amend and try and build a better way forward. In fact things have gotten much worse and no lessons have been learned worldwide not just in Ireland and the next crash is going to be even worse. Even today in Ireland we borrow millions per day to keep the countries head above water, our health service is in turmoil as one example and yet we see fit to give already well paid civil servants pay rises and social welfare applicants xmas bonus's. I mean seriously wtf??

All very good points there but people are starting to mobilize and form groups around the world particularly in the western world. There's some really interesting ideas coming from these groups, but unfortunately our dear leaders are not listening yet, but I suspect they will eventually. Unfortunately that looks like it'll eventually happen after the next crash or something more serious. I don't think the last crash was wasted at all. It woke a large amount of the population, including myself, and things are happening behind the scenes. There are some really intelligent people coming together, forming these groups, and trying to force change. I do think many of these groups will eventually be successful but it is very disturbing to watch our leaders falter.

The problem isn't with people's pay or bonusus, the problem is with our fundamentally flawed economic and financial systems, all based on fundamentally flawed theories and principles. Sadly our leaders are choosing to ignore this, which is and will continue to cause mayhem, particularly at a social level. I do agree with you though, it is unacceptable to have a failing health service after the pain and sacrifices many have had in endure over the last few years

Cuddlesworth

Yourself isit wrote: »

Housing in Ireland lies at the heart of the insecurity of the new middle classes. The indo had a piece today about a couple on 60k getting kicked out of their rental and unable to afford a house.

Those stories are almost always made up or the reporter/reported leaves out very important details to intentionally create a bias. Throwing the word eviction out there is a great way to do this.

Rents in the area seem to be hitting 2k for houses. Achievable for a couple on 60k but they clearly need move to somewhere more affordable for their needs.

And I can understand why his landlord wants to sell. 2012 prices were 220-240k, current are 400k+ which would imply they are back at boom time prices. If they didn't want to be a landlord, seems like a good time to sell.